If there’s one thing Professor Kancha Ilaiah doesn’t shy away from, it’s being provocative. Author, academic and activist, Ilaiah has repeatedly made the news because of his opinions (the most recent being his lecture in Lucknow where he claimed vegetarianism would “destroy the brain capacity” and therefore, the responsible and nationalist course of action was to eat meat in general and beef in particular). Whether or not you agree with him, Ilaiah’s arguments will make you think. And when it comes to dalit history, he’s one of the most authoritative voices you’ll hear.

Newslaundry: We asked people in Delhi about Dr BR Ambedkar and found that they know very little about him. Why do you think that is the case?

Kancha Ilaiah: First of all he was not allowed to get into the public. His writing wasn’t put into syllabuses for a long time. His image wasn’t shown in any form. So that is one big factor.

And there are two forces behind this – one was the Congress government for a long time, treated only Gandhi and Nehru as their idols; they liked to ignore him [Ambedkar]. But more than that, the Hindutva forces – the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the Bharatiya Janata Party – they saw to it that he was completely forgotten. He wrote against Hinduism, he burned the Manu Dharma Shastra. He said he won’t die a Hindu and embraced Buddhism. All the Hindu Brahmins, wherever they are – whether they are in the RSS or Congress, in schools and universities — they thought that he should be completely eliminated.

But now we find him on the cover of Organizer. Is that an attempt to revise history or rely on identity politics?

Well, firstly, India’s credibility in the world is low, when it comes to caste problems. The United Nations has recognized caste and the World Bank has also expressed concern over caste and untouchability. So a lot of international institutions have expressed concern about caste.

Also, once the Dalits got education, particularly from some of the good central universities, we were the first generation after Ambedkar died. So we basically got on par with the Brahmins, which was a good thing, which led to a number of books and journals being produced popularizing Ambedkar.

The upper castes have always been projecting their own idols – Gandhi and Nehru by the Congress and Golwalkar and Savarkar by the RSS-BJP. But now they can’t ignore him without alienating the Dalit-Bahujan community. Particularly after my book, Why I’m Not a Hindu, the upper castes were taken aback. See, Ambedkar was tactful, so he didn’t confront Hinduism this way. I confronted them by saying that we aren’t Hindus even by birth.

Most of what Ambedkar is known for today – as the framer of the Constitution – is related to events after India’s independence.

Before all that, he wrote many great works – The Annihilation of Caste and of course, Riddles in Hinduism, in which he explained that Hindu religion doesn’t have moral strength. In the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagvad Gita, the divine images that are constructed lack the moral strength to unite the world. Any religion has to think about the world, not about nations and countries. The strength to unite all peoples and castes is lacking in Hinduism. There is no universality in it and Ambedkar exposed that very clearly.

There is also the book he wrote on The Buddha and His Dhamma, Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Ancient India, Pakistan or the Partition of India and many others. So the corpus of his works is huge. And the thing to remember is that he was a PhD in Economics – no other Indian leader of the time had a PhD, except Dadabhai Naoroji. So there were no great scholars of his stature from any caste background. Among the upper castes too, there were no great scholars. He was a first generation man. After Gautam Buddha, he has had the most impact fighting inequality. Now, nobody can stop him.

I think there’s another angle as to why he’s been brought up now. Narendra Modi is an OBC and he has expressed admiration for Ambedkar because of his role in writing the Constitution. And because of that Constitution that Ambedkar wrote, an OBC has become the Prime Minister despite opposition from Brahmins in his own party and RSS. For example, Modi couldn’t have become the Shankaracharya or some such thing because the Brahmins would’ve said, “You’re a Shudra, you can’t hold this position.” But they couldn’t stop him from becoming the Prime Minister, because of the Constitution.

So you’re saying Narendra Modi owes his prime ministership to Ambedkar?

Absolutely. But there’s something more important than Modi praising Ambedkar. Rahul Gandhi is now saying that the fight is between Ambedkar’s Indian Constitution and Manu Dharma. And he said, “I will stand with the Constitution.” So, having come from Nehru’s family, he’s saying this. According to me, more than the PM praising Ambedkar, Rahul Gandhi saying this is very important.

Why is that more important?

Because he comes from an upper caste background. The Nehru family is a Brahmin family and Nehru was made PM because he was a Brahmin. Everybody was very happy that a Brahmin has been made the PM. Having come from that family, he says, “I will stand with Ambedkar’s ideas.” That is a very serious change.

Is Ambedkar only a Dalit icon or can people from upper castes also relate to him?

No, no. How can he be a Dalit icon when he is a Buddhist? Buddhists are all over the world – China, Japan, Korea. So he doesn’t just belong to the Dalits. He’s a divine figure of this nation, a prophet. I’m not an untouchable, I’m not a Dalit but still I say “Bhim Bhoomi ki Jai”. Ambedkar is the greatest prophet of this nation after Buddha. All other figures will eventually get marginalized in history; Buddha and Ambedkar will remain.