Hafta 473: MSP guarantee for farmers, what happened in Sandeshkhali

This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Raman Kirpal, and Shardool Katyayan are joined by journalist Monideepa Banerjie and agricultural policy expert Devinder Sharma.

On the situation in West Bengal’s Sandeshkhali, Monideepa gives a timeline of what happened. She explains that after being accused of exploiting local women, TMC leader Shahjahan Sheikh has been absconding for the last 50 days and hasn’t returned to the village. Shardool says, “It is the BJP that has shown why it is important to have a strong opposition.”

The panel then discusses the farmers’ demand for a minimum support price guarantee for agricultural produce. Citing data, Devinder says farmers are facing the “crisis of survival” as the average income from farming in India is Rs 27 per day. Abhinandan says many well-to-do farmers in Punjab support their lifestyle from other businesses as farming remains unprofitable.

This and a lot more. Tune in!

Hafta letters: Reportage on Sandeshkhali, reactions to Ram Mandir, Hafta timings

This week’s episode of NL Hafta is free. You can listen to the episode wherever you get your podcasts from. Click here.

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Song: Dil Ki Ye Aarazu Thi Koi

Timecodes

00:05:20 - Headlines

00:19:00 - Sandeshkhali

00:48:15 - Farmers’ protests

01:32:44 - Letters

01:57:42 - Recommendations

References

NL Sena - Modi 2.0 report card

Agri expert says in India farmers left ‘Bhagwan bharose’, backs MSP

Sandeshkhali is Mamata Banerjee’s most dangerous quicksand in 12 years

The jeera lesson: How Modi government can give farmer MSP, and fulfil its goals

Video: Farmers on 'corporate loot', why is MSP law their right

Recommendations

Monideepa

The Colonial Constitution

Shardool

Inside the Darfur camp where a child dies every two hours

Baldur’s Gate 3

Lost in Translation

Raman

The Last Czars

Nyad

Rustin

Manisha

Why Russia Killed Navalny

Expats

NL-TNM’s three part investigative series on political funding

Abhinandan 

One day in the life of Alexei Navalny

How the Navy came to protect cargo ships

Check out our previous Hafta recommendations.

Produced and recorded by Aryan Mahtta, edited by Hassan Bilal. 

Hafta 473

Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast, and you're

listening to NL Hafta. Angreze apna

Abhinandan: lagaan aur News Laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte.

Welcome to another episode of NL Hafta. We're recording this on the

22nd of February, Thursday, 4pm. Uh, things may have changed when

you hear this, because there is an evolving situation when it comes to

the farmer.

meeting that's happening right now in Chandigarh and also the protests,

etc. And of course, there are many raids underway. So there are many

things happening while we are recording this, which may change by the

time this recording

Manisha: ends. Only thing sure is aayenge to

Monideepa: Modi

Abhinandan: ji. How are you so sure?

Raman: That we can say.

You were, you were not sure about the operation parties coming

together. Now they are coming together.

Abhinandan: Parties. But before we get into the introduction of. Who all

are [00:01:00] going to be in the panel. I want to put a very special

thanks to Nishtha. Uh, she did not want me to dwell into who she is, et

cetera, et cetera.

But like, you know, um, I had mentioned in last hafta that a wonderful

producer who happens to be here now, who was injured when he was

covering the, uh, uh, farmer protest, uh, shell, whatever the tear gas

went off right next to his head. So he passed out and the phone he was

carrying was lost. And I had mentioned this in last hafta.

And Nishtha sent me an email and said, we shall replace it for you and

iPhone pro was in our office in less than two days. Does

Manisha: that mean when I

Abhinandan: lose an iPhone? Manisha, you go and sell it. I know

Manisha will go and sell it in the market. She will say, Oh, I lost it. Now,

no subscriber will give me an iPhone.

This is not done. Honest people. It's a very old phone of mine. Look, now

say to Nisha. Nisha, thank you. That is what makes News Laundry

subscribers such wonderful people. [00:02:00] We don't have to depend

on government ads. You don't have to spend on Adani Ji or, uh, the rest

of the G or manji, we only depend on subscribers Manji.

So on that note of thank you, remember, subscribe, pay to eight news

free. Uh, and going forward in the election, the four iPhones we have,

we hope we have five eight, so that we can send producers in other

parts. So if any of you have an old iPhone Pro lying or want to buy a new

one and send it, mail me ab@gmail.com.

I've been on the secret gmail. com so we can give one to all these guys

who go out. So we have good high quality video. And as you've seen a

lot more video stories are coming out of news laundry these days. Yeah.

So let's do more of that. I've been on the secret gmail. com if you want to

dispose your old machines, old phones, they can be used in changing

the country.

Did you know that? So. On that note, the panel in the studio today,

Manisha Pandey. Hello. Shardul. Vanakkam. Raman [00:03:00] Kripal.

Hello. And joining us on the phone line or rather on zoom from Kolkata is

Monidipa Banerjee. Hi Monidipa. Hi, nice to be on your show. Yes. Good

to be back. Uh, before I introduce you, the link to her show in the print,

which is Sandesh Kali is Mamata Banerjee's most dangerous quicksand

in 12 years is in the link below.

Uh, so you can click on that and read that article of hers, Monidipa. As

most of our listeners and viewers will already know is a veteran

journalist. She is based in Kolkata and she's reporting on politics in West

Bengal, uh, from the Telegraph to NDTV for nearly three decades. I

know I have watched as long as I've been in the business.

So welcome Monidipa. Thank

Monideepa: you. Very kind words, though. It makes me feel very, very

old.

Abhinandan: Yes. He

Raman: has this habit of making

Abhinandan: everybody old. Yeah. He says that you keep making

yourself also sold. And because of that, even I feel sold. So, [00:04:00]

uh, before we get into the discussion, uh, we will discuss, uh, Sandesh

Kali first, and then the farmers duress.

We want to announce a new news laundry Sena project. Modi 2. 0

report card. This is being done in partnership with the news minute.

We've just done one series in partnership with the news minute on how

political parties get funded. Uh, and coincidentally, many of them who

give funds have recently been raided as well.

So do check out that story. Um, This new NLCNR project will also be in

partnership with the News Minute. So the link is below in the show

notes. Or you can just go to newslaundry. com and you can see this

NLCNR project. We don't take any ads from anyone. All our reportage

and journalism is funded by you.

So do show the world together that journalism can be completely free of

any ads. These days that you've seen Gans ads, because LG doesn't

pass deli ads. So the Punjab ads are running deli [00:05:00] and

surprisingly, along with Yogi and Mohi, pagan is everywhere. But

Raman: wan the ads don't have, uh, Val's picture in most of those ads.

Maybe

Abhinandan: that's what I noticed. But, but in yesterday's Indian

Express I had, which was about up the copy, was about ation yogi, but

the photograph was only Mohi. . But that, such as the nature of Sarkar.

Uh, but let, let's get to the headlines first,

Manisha: leaders of the ongoing farmers protest decided to suspend

their plan to move towards Delhi for two days after a protester died of

head injury at Kanori border yesterday, several farmers were also

injured as the Haryana police dropped tear gas shells at the Shambu

and Kanori border.

The Sayyukt Kisan Morcha is currently in a meeting with the rest of the

farmers union at Chandigarh to discuss further strategy, Congress and

allies. Seem to be finally getting the seat sharing act together. The Sam

Wadi party has announced that it'll contest the upcoming looks by

elections in, up on 63 seats out the 80.[00:06:00]

Congress will feel its candidates on 17 seats. Mm. Up will do four is to

three in Delhi and get two seats in Gujarat and one in Ana. Two seats in

Gujarat is not bad. It's a good deal for them.

Abhinandan: So, so it's, it's, I mean, unless there's some respectable,

in spite of all the media efforts. Of forget anyone else trying to spike it.

The media was trying hardest to spike that. Even now they're saying

Congress humbled. Congress is agreeing to such pathetic terms. 17

Shardool: is

Abhinandan: not pathetic. It's not pathetic. In whene pyar kiya na, when

the sidekick of, I mean, I don't know what that actor's name is. All I know

is that in Mahabharat, um, he played the guy who closed the

Chakravyuh.

Deep Dhillon. Uh, probably the billows. No, as he was playing Jethro

Jethro. Yes. The bill. The bill. So the, he lost the truck driver. And his

sidekick wants you to fight Salman. Boss ye toh tumhari insult hogayi.

Ye toh tumhari insult. So, when he, any seizure happens, all these

[00:07:00] sidekicks are frightened. Ye toh insult hogayi boss tumhari.

Raman: Khadge, uh, I must say, is a very smooth operator. Yeah. His

team, huh?

Abhinandan: At this age, the

Manisha: way, I mean Rahul finding his soul in the yatra, I'm guessing

it's Khadge who's

managed

Abhinandan: to do all this. He's a pretty successful guy. Sandesh

Manisha: Khali, a village 75 km away from Calcutta, has been gripped

by protests by women who have levelled allegations of sexual assault

and land grabbing against TMC leader Shah Jahan Shaikh and his

aides.

The National Human Rights Commission has sent a notice to West

Bengal government and the state's police chief over reports alleging

unabated human rights violation. On Monday, Republic Bangla journalist

Shantu Pan was also arrested there on allegations of trespassing and

outraging the modesty of women.

Editors Guild of India described Pan's detainment as worrisome. He was

granted bail today by the Calcutta High Court. In all of this, a Sikh IPS

officer deputed In West Bengal's Dhamakali village was allegedly called

Khalistani by BJP protesters. [00:08:00] There's a huge furore over it.

Abhinandan: And they are claiming no such thing happened.

A video has been released by the. Bengal police saying that here is

when it was called. Well, you

Manisha: can clearly see his reaction saying don't I mean

Abhinandan: I mean you can't say who said which is shocking

Manisha: because this is not something that you'd hear in calcutta or

west bengal This is not the kind of thing that It goes around.

So many Sikh businessmen,

Raman: so much. This is what you expect now when, when you play the

politics of polarization

Manisha: and stereotyping. There

Shardool: is another part to this. It's so

Manisha: hurtful. Very hurtful. And I don't know why they're doing this

for the community, which is largely, I mean, there's just no friction there.

And

Raman: he is, he is an IPS officer. ACB. He's a big, I mean, he, he

passed that national exam, you know, for everybody aspire

Abhinandan: for. So Shant Sinha is a primetime anchor. Sudhir

Chaudhary is a primetime anchor. [00:09:00] So it doesn't matter who's

who. We are in a world where kuch bhi chalega.

Shardool: There is another aspect to this.

When your political brief has become Which messages come from Delhi

to what on WhatsApp, but the point is that you lose your footing on the

ground and you just parrot away the

Manisha: points. The Supreme Court on Tuesday quashed and set

aside the result of the January 30th mayoral polls for the Chandigarh

Municipal Corporation, in which the presiding officer had named BJP's

Manoj Sankar as the winner.

The

Raman: haunting happened in CGI. Yeah.

Manisha: They also said, they counted again.

Abhinandan: Because now the three up guys who had flipped that,

they'll be like, now what is our status? Can you

Manisha: imagine? But you

Abhinandan: know, what I find shocking is that how, you know, prime

time anchors, one would assume they'd be thrilled at this. And that night.

There was not a single, I could not [00:10:00] recognize a single

spokesperson. Like, you know, usually when they have these prime time

cockfights or debates, or some want to give them some sort of

respectability, you know, the other usual BJP faces and there was not

one BJP spokesperson, not even the proxies, you know, BJP has some

standard proxies.

Some of them have sat with us here also. Even they weren't there.

There's some new random people because they said, yeah, he's not

going to defend us either. Anchors said, worry not,

Shardool: we're here. The faces of anchors, like I generally stay away

from TV, like for over 20 years now, but like the faces were, I wanted to

see the reaction.

And, uh, they were. Like you could see that they're sad,

Abhinandan: they're sad that democracies got saved. I'm like, dude,

what world are we living in?

Shardool: They feel so dejected. Like while reading the headline, the

Maharashtra

Manisha: assembly on Tuesday passed a bill that provides for a 10

percent quota in education and government jobs for the state's Maratha

community.

Vanessa [00:11:00] Dugnak, a Delhi based French journalist who was

issued a notice last month by the Foreigner's Regional Registration

Office accusing her of malicious reporting has left the country. She said

that she was forced to leave by the government of India. This is because

she was an OCI and her OCI was cancelled because according to new

laws, you cannot do journalistic work.

If you're an OCI,

Abhinandan: yeah, although it's, I think being challenged in court, it

should be because

Manisha: it's very vaguely worded again, like you can't carry out

journalistic activities. She wasn't reporting on India. She was reporting

on South Asian countries from India. The CBI has summoned former

Telangana chief minister K.

Chandrasekhar Rao's daughter and BRS legislator K. Kavita in

connection with the Delhi excise policy case next week. Meanwhile,

Satyapagal Malik's house was also raided today. He said. You'll only find

a few KTA pajamas. four people. And he said, dictator has come. I'm

scared of the dictator, but yeah. He's your neighbor.

Yeah. So did you see the sleuths coming in? Did they're coming for you?

They

Raman: were the man. [00:12:00] I was, I was surprised at why he

hasn't been attacked so far because he really went after he said so

much. He gave so much, so many interviews. Interviews, yeah. And that

Kmi Kashmir interview of thing, the, yeah. The things that he revealed

are massive and, uh,

Monideepa: uh, but, but

Abhinandan: although, although in the past also they had come, and at

that time a lot of farmers had gathered outside the colony.

Uh, they said, we didn't come to arrest him. We just came to request him

to do X, Y, Z. But I think at that time, because of the amount of farmers

who gathered there, Hmm. The enforcement agencies backed off. Hmm.

Raman: But CBI rating him a former governor. Uh, no, but CBI. It takes

time to read anyone, unless I'm doing my time and I used to report in

nineties, CBI was,

Abhinandan: so

Raman: I don't know.

I mean, they were very professional in nineties, but I don't [00:13:00]

know things might

Abhinandan: have changed.

Manisha: In a press conference, Congress party treasurer Ajay

Markand said that the IT department has ordered withdrawal of 65 crore

from its account undemocratically. This is while their case is still

underway in the, with the appellate authority.

So they've just withdrawn this it be

Raman: undemocratic? I think it is illegal. It is a crime.

Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah. It's a crime committed by the government.

No, apparently because I know someone else. Uh, there is a provision

by which they can deduct the tax from you at your bank level. You don't

even get to know. And the person who told me about this challenged in

court and won and the money had to be returned back to him.

But there is a provision by which they can take the money directly from

your account. But

Shardool: partially because the total tax amount is 218 crore, I think, but

Abhinandan: I mean, there is a provision by which they can do that.

Manisha: Eminent jurist and senior Supreme Court advocate Faliz Sam

Nariman died in Delhi on Wednesday at the age of 95.

We have a way. Hot. on our website. So do read it. Iconic radio

presenter Ameen [00:14:00] Sayani, host of the popular radio show

Binaka Geetmala also passed away on Tuesday. Such a lovely voice.

Hmm. The Pakistan People's Party and the Pakistan Muslim League

Nawaz reached an agreement to form a coalition government nearly two

weeks after the national elections.

Pakistan People's Party chairperson Bilawal Bhutto Zardari confirmed

that Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz leader Shahbaz Sharif would be

the candidate for the prime minister's post. I hope Banjaye Abhyar. I'm

tired. Just really. It's a show. It's a show.

Abhinandan: It's a show.

Shardool: Banana Republic. Pakistan to banana bikkhatam.

Chilka bachaya.

Abhinandan: Fascinating is that, and this shows the mindset of how

small minded you are. Anything happens in Pakistan, Gaurav Sawant

gets his primetime show. Pakistan to dekho, Pakistan to dekho. Kuch to

bada ho jaye. Grow up. You know, like, he'll have four people. And in

Pakistan, and everything, and, and you know, he has that body

language, ki main toh commando, and rather than Gaurav Arya, I really

want to, I want to make a movie, I [00:15:00] want to make a movie

called Main Bhi Commando, with Gaurav Arya and Major, uh, Gaurav

Arya bol raho.

Gaurav, Gaurav Sawant. Gaurav is also Arya only, right? No, Sawant.

Major Arya, the one from Republic. What's his name? Gaurav Arya?

Major Arya. Gaurav Arya only, right? I think Gaurav. I don't know. We

can call him Yeah, yeah, he's Gaurav Arya. Gaurav Gaurav. G2.

Monideepa: G2. G2. G2.

Raman: Gaurav Sawant was a commando in 1998 when he was part of

my team.

Abhinandan: And he stays the same. So you have trained him. Chalo,

good sir. You are to blame. Don't say that. You will be

Raman: defamed. At that time, he wasn't, he was never

Shardool: like this. The movie name should be, Mai Bhi

Manisha: Commando. G2. The United States on Tuesday, for the third

time, vetoed a United Nations Security Council draft resolution calling for

an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza.

Alex Navalny, a Russian opposition politician and prominent Kremlin

critic, died in prison on Friday. Dude, that is just. And there's been

massive clampdown on protests, [00:16:00] on vigils in Russia. The

Abhinandan: brazenness of Putin blows me away. And I don't know

whether you guys saw that Tucker Putin. Like, you see the news is just

going down the shithole in a lot of places.

This guy still has an audience. I'm blown away that this buffoon still has

an audience. He has the

Shardool: biggest

Abhinandan: audience. It's just shocking. And Alexis Navalny and his

mother not getting the body. But apparently the way Europe has reacted,

and apparently even America, They're saying they will embargo, um, all

the people who were, who are the jailers or whoever's involved

immediately in which means that if they or their children or their families

want to travel to the US or they will not be given, which is, that's

Manisha: good.

But will they be able to figure out who

Abhinandan: I'm sure there are some officials who are there in charge,

right? There must be some jail. Oh, they'll come to.

Manisha: That's a good name, but that's a good thing to do.

Abhinandan: How far this guy's going, Putin, [00:17:00] um, this

Russian pilot who had abandoned when the Ukrainian war happened, he

had switched sides.

He flew his helicopter to Russia, uh, to Ukraine and said, I'm not going to

be part of this war. And, uh, he was found dead, um, just the day before

yesterday. Gangster. It's total gangster. Yeah. Yeah. Putin

Shardool: is the leader in the world who has no checks on his power.

Yeah. No checks. Everybody else has. Some either, either by necessity

or by design, Putin has no checks and he controls a large swath of

Abhinandan: Europe.

A Russian pilot who defected to Ukraine is dead. Ukraine defense

intelligence, Maxim Kuzminov, a Russian pilot who dramatically defected

to Ukraine by flying his helicopter across the border is dead. Spanish

civil guard, cause he was rehabilitated in Spain and he had come on

television and said, I urge other Russians also to abandon this unjust

war.

And on television, one of the special forces guys Russia had said, he

thinks he'll hide. We will find [00:18:00] him. He was under a different

name, under different, you see, he was living in different country. They

found him. They killed him. You

Manisha: think he'll ever see, there'll ever be an uprising in our time

there? In Russia?

No. No. No. They seem to have a great re like resilience to, they

Shardool: do resilience of power. But the thing is, you have to

understand Russian culture. They, they don't look bad on strong men.

They are. They are,

Abhinandan: yeah. You not just that, I mean they're so used to

totalitarian regimes, right? Yeah. From the Soviet to, I mean, when have

they had a democracy in

Shardool: that sense?

I don't mean that there is no opposition to Putin, like the people who

came out in support of, uh, this Naval Naval, but they were beaten up.

Yeah. What I'm trying to say is. Like in India also, there is sort of an

admiration for strongmen. Russia doesn't dislike strongmen, but this guy

is going too far. Of course.

Abhinandan: Yes, he is. And is that the end of the headlines or do we

have more? All right. So [00:19:00] let's get into what is happening in

Bengal first. So Monodipa, this has become a huge issue. Um, I will say

it is covered extensively every day in the media and it is deeply worrying

that this person he's like, I guess I understand is a local goon who is

missing and, and no action is taken against him.

Uh, the nature of allegations has kind of changed in the last two to three

weeks. I've noticed from, uh, you know, uh, being accused of

inappropriate behavior. to exploitation, to rape. And then I saw one

particular anchor saying gang rape. But the police says that there has

been no complaint of rape filed with us.

Uh, and you know, opposition says the police doesn't, it's a state police.

Why is this such a huge political event? Uh, and why is this man, why

does he have so much clout?

Monideepa: Well, that's a good question. At this moment, uh, to

[00:20:00] start with your last bit first, uh, he seems to have become a

superhuman being, actually.

Today, I think it is the 49th day that he has been missing. Honestly, I

have stopped counting. 5th January, it disappeared the day the ED

landed at his doors and, uh, you know, till today, he hasn't been found

and, uh, uh, it is probably going to be 50 days tomorrow. So, given that,

uh, he is missing, given that the entire police force of West Bengal

appears not to be able to find him.

Given that the Chief Minister, Mamata Banerjee, has also said things like

he has been targeted by the ED, um, you know, on the instructions of

the party at the centre, the BJP, to disturb the peace of West Bengal,

given all that, somehow, Truly, Shah Jahan has become a larger than

life character. Uh, and we still don't know when he's going to get caught.

We have [00:21:00] no idea where he is. There are even questions

being raised about how he may have fled across the border to

Bangladesh because Sandesh Khali is, you know, adjoining the border.

and very riverine, a labyrinth of rivers, really, and he could have slipped

across. And then, of course, we've also had some Sunamur leaders

pointing fingers at the BSF, saying if Shah Jahan has escaped to

Bangladesh, then it's the fault of the BSF.

So, given all this, Shah Jahan has become truly A giant superhero kind

of person, which is absurd because he, he was ultimately, basically a

strong man, uh, of that area of the sunderbans whose main role before

2013 or before 2011 was to help the CPM win elections. And now, since

2013, it has been, his role has been to help the Trinamool win the

elections in that area.

That's about it. And there are many others like him. [00:22:00] But, uh

Abhinandan: So apparently, he, when he filed his nomination for

panchayat polls, I mean the ED says documents submitted for

panchayat poll stated he owns 70, 17 cars, 43 bighas of land, that's 23

acres and jewelry over 2 crore. His bank balance was nearly 2 crore and

um, his annual income was 20 lakh.

I mean, I don't know how that became his investment strategy. I must

figure out but it's land grab strategy. So, so he's basically the, I guess

the Raja Bhaiya equivalent that whichever party he backs will kind of win

in that area. Is that right? Yeah,

Monideepa: that's a pretty good analogy for people up in the northern

parts of this

Abhinandan: country.

I

Monideepa: wonder if there's some such person in southern India.

Abhinandan: I don't know. Yes, RI brothers who, I mean, they back to

whichever party, you know, pan it to them from Oshima to everyone.

Pan it to them. They, they, they've switched enough party. So, yeah, I

guess like the RI brothers, what

Manisha: I was keen to know, Mon [00:23:00] Rippa is this, you know,

the ed action happens, he disappears, and then there are these protests

by women, uh, who talk about, you know, illegal land, grab their farms

being taken away, them being harassed, and then slowly and suddenly

then you have.

Women come and say that his aides, two of his right and left hand men,

are also accused of rape, molestation. So, how did this, how did this

come about, the protest of the women coming together and, you know,

and, and why now? Like, how is it that, because clearly this guy has

been, you know, Doing what he's been doing there for a very long time.

Is it because of the ED action that they felt empowered to then come out

and kind of take him on? Yeah, because it

Abhinandan: started off with financial impropriety and now it's gone

into, you know, gang rape. What, what is the primary narrative for which

he is wanted there? Okay. I

Monideepa: should warn you that I can go on forever, so please stop

me at i'll appropriate intervals.

And I never thought I would ever, you know, um, quote something that

the home minister [00:24:00] says, and that is his favorite comment,

chronology. I'm gonna sort of trans phrase that and say geography. He,

um, the fact of the matter is, uh, in, there are two blocks. There is ish Ali

one, and then there's ish Ali, two ish Ali one on the 5th of December was

the theater of all the action one.

Remember that's where Shar Jahan had his huge housing complex, and

that's where when the ED went and tried to break the gates, hundreds of

women apparently showed up and try prevented the ED from breaking

the gates and going in and finding shahan. These are not the same

women who are protesting today.

Today the protests are happening in an adjoining island of Sandesh Kali

2. This is a bit of geography we must understand because also the

population, [00:25:00] the demographics are a little different. There are

more minority community people in Sandesh Kali 1.

Abhinandan: So the religious angle comes in.

Monideepa: Majority community people in Sandesh Khali 2, which is

seeing all the action.

There are many reasons why apparently many days after the Edhi

trouble, these women of Sandesh Khali 2 started protesting against

Shah Jahan. One of the simplest, there are many stories, and some of

them are unconfirmed, so I shall not repeat them. But the simplest

explanation that the women have been given is that Shah Jahan, on the

8th of February, I think, was missing for more than a month.

And somehow the women there came to feel that maybe finally he has

disappeared for good and he cannot come back without immediately

getting arrested. And that is what apparently prompted them to raise

their voices in protest and take it further, [00:26:00] go and attack the

properties of. two of Shah Jahan's, um, stooges or goons who had made

their life very, very difficult.

And that is that chap Uttam and she. So that's when they went and

started burning the properties, you know, a poultry farm and some other

stuff of Uttam. So I think it was the kind of slow but growing belief. that

Shah Jahan was gone from the area for good, which is what brought the

women out. That probably, that reassurance was just not there.

Also, eventually, you know, the two, I mean, Shah Jahan disappeared,

but his two comrades were very much there. And they felt it was a good

time as any to raise the matter and get some action taken against them.

And so eventually Uttam and Shibu were arrested and mind you now,

rape complaints have been filed against Shibu, definitely, and perhaps

also Uttam.

Abhinandan: But not [00:27:00] against Shah Jahan. Not against Shah

Manisha: Jahan. And it's important to just note that while, I mean, Smriti

Irani came in and BGP does what it does, communalize the whole thing,

said, you know, Bangladeshis are raping Hindu women. The two aides

are Hindus. So it's very much a problem of political gundagardi and

political patronage to gundas.

Not really a problem of Bangladeshi. See,

Monideepa: this is, this is a very peculiar problem that I see with the

view that you have from Delhi and that is, uh, you know, on the ground,

really. I mean, you might even ask how come a minority leader like Shah

Jahan has Hindu goons or stooges who are his right and left hand men,

but that's the way it is in these islands.

I mean, those people have been cohabiting for. Years and years. And

mind you, Shah Jahan is, belongs to the minority community, which is in

minority in Chandeshkhali. Ultimately, they are in large numbers, 22%,

25%, but they are a minority. And yet, Shah [00:28:00] Jahan's aides are

Hindus. So when a union minister, for instance, says, Oh, Muslim

minority men are raping.

Hindu women. That is, uh, so

Abhinandan: it's also actually wrong. It's, it's wrong on, on even the,

even unless on even the, on even the alleged facts that's inaccurate.

Monideepa: I mean, you know, I mean, what shall I say? It just reveals a

terrible ignorance of the way things are on the ground even now. in

Bengal. Now,

Abhinandan: one more question.

Manisha: Many of these women protesting are TMC voters. A lot of

them would have voted for the TMC. So it is not even, it's really a

problem of this guy. His fear,

Abhinandan: basically. His fear in him getting political patronage by

Mamata. Yeah. Now that's the question I have. Like Mamata got a pretty

solid, you know, mandate when she won.

And that was also as an incumbent, she won very convincingly, um, in

such an environment. If this guy's filing panchayat [00:29:00] level

papers, he clearly is not someone who can help you sweep an election.

He can at best help you on one or two seats. What makes him so

important for Mamata that, uh, irrespective whether he is, you know,

whether the facts, whether evidence is there enough for him to be

prosecuted or pronounced guilty, but purely as a political, you know,

optics, uh, what, uh, stops her from not You know, protecting him in

whatever way the police has been slow on this.

Why is he so important? See, like

Monideepa: I'm trying to repeatedly explain everywhere that I'm talking

about this problem, you know, after the kind of comments. a union

minister made about the rape factor. Right. Any other place where if

there was communal tension on the ground, there have been, there

would have been riots, but not in Sandeshkali.

I mean, even today, the Hindus and Muslims are going around just fine.

There's no problem. And that is a fact of life [00:30:00] here in most

parts of Bengal. The tension level is not at an ugly point. Thankfully, just

yet. So therefore, it is not unnatural that a leader of the minority

community should have, um, right hand and left hand men of the

majority community.

But why Shah Jahan is important is very simple. Really. It is the fact that.

30 percent of the voters, roughly, are of the minority community in West

Bengal. They all have staunchly supported Mamata Banerjee since

2011, certainly even before. And that is a kind of vote bank that Mamata

Banerjee has protected and nourished and nurtured and cherished.

It has helped her through so many elections. Why it is now even more

important for her to protect a minority leader like Shah Jahan is the fact

that in the last two years, there seem to be have to [00:31:00] have been

some little breaches in the minority vote bank, because not very far from

Shandesh Khali is on board.

And you know, while in 2021, both the CPIM and the Congress drew

blanks One of their partners in their alliance, and that is the Indian

Secular Front, which is headed by a Muslim Pir, much respected. His

brother won an election at Bhangarh, so he is one opposition MLA other

than the BJP in the assembly in West Bengal.

And the fact that he managed to wrest Bhangarh from a very strong

Trinamool leader in the area, that certainly made the Trinamool

Congress stop and think. And subsequently there was, um, The, the s

again, um, minority dominated, uh, uh, assembly constituency up in

[00:32:00] AK district where out of the blue in a triangular contest, the

joint candidate, a congressman.

He won the election out of the blue. I mean, there was Trimble, there

was BJP, and there was a full fight apparently. And, um, uh, the

Congress candidate won in a minority dominated seat. And that's where

I think some alarm bells went off. Congress about the sanctity of

Abhinandan: bank

Monideepa: bank. No way Mumba can risk giving up somebody like

Shaha.

Abhinandan: Right. So let me open this out to the panel. Um, what

makes you think, and I, I mean I, I know that this is something that

sometimes even I've wondered geographically. Bengal is not so far from

Delhi, as is the Kerala. Yes. Yet, Beng, stuff that happens in Bengal has

to reach a critical point for it to become a national story.

And this, I've [00:33:00] seen over time, even, you know, with Shingur

and stuff, it, once it becomes a critical mass, then it becomes a national

story, whereas in other states it doesn't have to reach that critical mass.

Why do you think that is? Any, I have a theory.

Shardool: I wrote it down. Ironically, BJP is showing us why you need a

proper opposition everywhere.

Because until you have some representative

Abhinandan: of the opposition, Bengal has never had a strong

opposition. Yes. Not from the communist times to now.

Shardool: I mean, like, look at it like until and unless it reaches a critical

mass, people don't get to know about it. Right. And I have, I think that's

true

Abhinandan: from Telangana also.

That's why a lot of people are telling Telangana, don't get into those

stories because. Look like there wasn't any significant opposition. I

mean, it, it,

Shardool: it, it's in different degrees in different places. Of course. I

mean, it, it

Abhinandan: defers to

Shardool: district to district. I mean, like BJP is trying to gain a foothold

and people see that we have someone to no matter what their reason is

someone to push us ahead.

So they do it. [00:34:00] I have a bit of different approach to this before

anybody comes in. Like Mamata made statements, which I mentioned in

last week's charcha that there are RSS bunkers and all. So like, and now

the things have come out, the most problematic for me, the allegation is

like, they were sort of performing some kind of prima nocta after

wedding.

Like they used to get three women, any person who gets married, they

used to get their wife and, you know, exploit them. This is extremely

disturbing. This is an allegation. This is an allegation on record. I've read

reports on it. And if chief minister is saying this, so what is it? Like

believe all women until and unless they are.

Opposing the opposition. That's not how it works. Like you cannot

subject people to this. And I agree with Monodipa's point, like the

criminal lords, criminal fiefdoms, no matter where they are, they are not

minority. They are not majority. They run their fiefdoms and they don't

care about. Um, what religion or [00:35:00] caste or creed their goons

are, they, they look for different kinds

Abhinandan: of efficiency.

I think national politics have demonstrated that in different states. So you

have a take on

Shardool: this. One small thing to finish this, the BJP is trying to spread

this because they want this It's women in danger to spread into all of

Bengal, but thankfully the women have also said who are protesting that

we are TMC voters, but we want this guy out, right?

That shows you that there is at least some authenticity to their

allegations. And which

Manisha: is why they should have been taken very seriously. Instead of

saying RSS stooge or whatever. You got to like see what

Shardool: our politicians have to learn their opposition when BJP is in

opposition, they are very efficient.

Abhinandan: Like, but I, I mean, I find it fascinating that in our country, I

mean, uh, allegation of rape or this kind of inappropriate impropriety, uh,

you know, whether it's a minor impropriety or whether it's something

terribly violent, like rape. Is, whether it is Brij Bhushan Sharansingh,

whether it is, you know, in the news media, the Me Too movement, it is

not a very [00:36:00] significant damage.

It doesn't damage you politically, status, you know, whether you are a

TV panelist, you are rehabilitated there, even if there's. You know, even

if you don't subscribe to believe all women, I think everyone subscribe to

listen to all women. Yeah. Take your job believing or not, depending on

what the, you know, whatever comes out.

But there is enough credibility in enough cases who we again see

rehabilitated on TV. So yeah. I think that is something in our collective

conscience. It is very low in our priority list. I

Raman: don't have much firsthand experience, you know, of reporting

from West Bengal, but, uh, you know, over the years, whatever we have

read and, uh, A couple of stories for which I had gone to, uh, West

Bengal.

What I found that CPM had nurtured a class of strongmen for a very long

time, and they had been in power for 30 years for that reason. [00:37:00]

And when the when the political um, Power went into her hand the

entire, this class, they all went back to her strongman. They went to

back, went to her mata, to to mata.

Now for mata. So, so what? So the reasoning that I get out of that, that

this class needs to be nurtured, this class needs to be saved at any cost

for politicians, for all politicians. So maybe I think this is one of the

reasons that, uh, we see that Shahjah is, you know, under her

protection.

Manisha: In fact, the two aides were with the CPI

Raman: before.

In fact, I also have some relatives over there who stay over there. They

say that during CPM time, several times they, they were not allowed to

vote. So they, if they live in a residential colony, so that these strong

men, uh, you know, they will just come over there. They'll close their

gates. And they said, you, uh,

Manisha: Oh, there's intimidation.

There's clear intimidation that you should not go to the

Abhinandan: booth. Yeah. Right. [00:38:00] So, uh,

Monideepa: there was definitely truth in that. I mean, there was some

infamous occasions when say, a multi story building with a slightly upper

middle class, uh, resident, a set of residents there on election day, there

were reports about how they went out to vote and found the gate.

Locked from their building to the polling booth chamber locked from

outside, but that has happened this in, in month of energies, period two,

it's a legacy she has inherited and carried on. So

Manisha: just one last question. Is this how serious is this thing going to

be for her in terms of upcoming elections

Monideepa: 2024?

You know, I'm Anisha. I was just going to put that also. I'll put that in

context of. Your colleagues question, uh, that, you know, until somebody

like the BJP comes along and raises it, the role of the opposition, no

question that, um, you know, the opposition, a strong opposition is very,

very important in any state.

And I've seen the state with very weak [00:39:00] oppositions for most of

my career. However, I have also seen some of the strongest opposition

leaders possible in the country, and that is Mamata Banerjee. And I

sometimes stop. Close my eyes and think that if something like Sandesh

Khali happened during the left regime, what would Mamata Banerjee

have done?

She would have gone and set up camp over there and set up court over

there. And that is a very big problem with the BJP. I mean, you know, I,

they have been making efforts to go to Sandesh Khali and just like the

left. Stopped from going to say, similarly, is now stopping the BJP and

they are being smart.

They are recourse taking recourse in court orders and finally making it to

the spot. But I don't know why they're even coming away. Mom, the

energy would have started living over there till Jahan was caught or

something like that. And that is a qualitative [00:40:00] difference in the

kind of opposition she gave to the CPM and the kind of opposition the

BJP is giving to her.

The opposition strategy and its performance still seems scattered, and

they need the Prime Minister to come down, apparently on the 6th of

March, to really lend their opposition Muscle. True. What you're seeing is

a dilution. Suddenly, somebody allegedly calls a cop a Khalistani, you

know, I mean, it just completely somehow there is a lack of a focus, but

at least we have seen the best at opposition, which is Malta Banerjee

and let's say the BJP is still got a long way to go before they, you know,

reach that pitch that will upset it.

Yeah. Also,

Abhinandan: I don't, I don't, I don't see that happening in Modi's time

because it is so central heavy, you know, for that kind of thing. There

has to be some autonomy in your regional leaders that here, man, like

even that [00:41:00] thing of should I put the heart around my neck or

not Rajnath Singh, I mean, we've all heard stories from people who we

know in governments, how even cabinet ministers cannot take a

decision because they don't know someone of a much junior level from

the PMO will call and tell It is.

So I think that is, you have to empower people. And I think the ization of

the BJP, we will see it completed very soon. Ma you know, KA did not go

there. I kept, they didn't want him, but I, you know, with Lin are, you

know, RP and saying, Sinia, dude, none of these guys have fight in

them. They are all, they want to be served a position.

They want to give in a house in Lutyens Delhi and now do this. They

cannot win Jack. Yes. They cannot fight. And with Modi saying, Sab

Kuch Modi Ki Guarantee, Modi Ki, everything. So then there is no other

plant that's coming up now. So then there's a, Sadaq baith jayenge, hum

hum hain? I think [00:42:00] that's, that's, that's the inevitable.

Logical end of what's happening to the BJP and use that is exactly

what's going to

Raman: happen. The entire party has been personified and Congress

was not even so much personified. The ministers, I mean, we had such.

Openly, we used to go and meet them, interview them, talk to them.

Today, you go to a minister, he will not give you an interview.

He will not, he will, he will even refuse to speak to you informally. Yeah.

Abhinandan: Uh, if he'll bump into you at some event, you'll say, don't

be seen with me. People who you've known for decades.

Shardool: Like I'm itching to say a slogan, it popped into my head. Like

psychofancy doesn't breed fighters or people with spine.

Like you can forget about politics. Imagine in your office. One guy who's

boss is a chato guy and one is not, you cannot expect the chato guy to

put up a fight about anything. So the same thing happened. BJP recently

changed their

Abhinandan: constitution. Yeah, and it [00:43:00] didn't get much this

thing. But, uh, we'll move on to the farmers protests now.

But before we say goodbye and thank you to Mauna Deepa, can we ask

for a recommendation that might enrich the lives of our listeners and

viewers? Since

Monideepa: somebody just mentioned the Indian constitution, no BJP

constitution, the BJP constitution. Oh, well, but close changes in

constitution. The proposal is in the air.

I read or goes and Gupta's colonial constitution the other day and, uh, I

really think it's a very interesting read, because there's so much we don't

know about it, and also it sort of gave me a great insight into what the

BJP may have planned for us, uh, long term, so it's a good book to read,

and watch out for development on that front, a colonial constitution that

needs To be tweaked seriously, if not changed.

Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Ponditipa. Uh, we look forward to

more of your pieces and [00:44:00] thank you for making the time and

joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye. Before we move on

to the agrarian crisis, just wanted to ask the panel, what do you make of

this seed sharing that is, you know, happened so quickly between

Congress and ARP and, uh, Samajwadi Party, because now Akhilesh is

also going to join the yatra.

And,

Manisha: and was very upset during the MP election because they

made his guys wait. They were very disrespectful. So yeah, he seems to

have quickly patched up or put it behind. I think there's a realization

among them that this is really a dual die election, so we need to figure

this

Abhinandan: out. And why do you think Kamal NA didn't affect you?

Think it is, there is this lovely meme that I, he, there's this meme of this

protest. It's I think an old protest in college protest. The Sun protesters

got up and there's that yellow, you know, those police barricades and the

protesters are pushing on that side and the police is pushing him back

on the protester side.

So someone had said Congress, BJP, Kamal Nath, what do you

[00:45:00] think? You think the BJP said, no, we don't want

Raman: him? No, no, Kamal Nath, if he defects, there's nothing for him.

If he defects, but yes, his son defects. His son has a still has a I'd

Abhinandan: say they were credible enough because if they weren't,

he'd come out and deny it at once.

No, he, even when he came

Manisha: in front of me, he was just spreading them himself that I'm

wanted there.

Abhinandan: No, no. I like that. Oh, then better. He must be considering

it. Now, why would he even spread that rumor? But I just, I mean, I just

think million do now cover that everywhere. Also,

Manisha: Cyndia would have protested, he would have said, I have to

know.

Abhinandan: I think, I think a party where Rajnath Singh is hesitant

about whether the mala should be around his neck. He has no say. I

don't think so. But

Manisha: it would have been quite comical for him to be back with

Kamal Nath.

Abhinandan: Now before we move on, just want to request everybody

to subscribe and pay to keep news free.

As you know, News Minute and News Laundry are doing many reports

together. There is a new NLCNR project out there. In fact, there are two

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elections get closer, you've seen on radio, Modi

Manisha: ki Guarantee. Terrible, terrible

Abhinandan: mimicry, yaar. My mimicry. It's really bad.

But that ad is, you flip any channel, every front page ad is a political ad.

On television, it's full of political ads. Now, with all these ads, if you still

think you're getting public interest journalism, I have, in that case, do

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you'll get abs.

Monideepa: So that's what you'll get

Abhinandan: abs. If you believe that they'll believe anything, but if you

don't believe that Sarkari ads can give you public interest journalism, do

subscribe to news laundry and pay to keep news free with that thought,

uh, let's move to the farmer's agitation, but yeah, you have someone to

say.

Shardool: About the [00:47:00] opposition thing. In my opinion, they

should have done this long ago. What,

Abhinandan: this? No, the seat sharing. I thought rubbing your nails

Shardool: with each other. Rubbing your nails, I have no clue. This is

the first time I'm hearing this.

Manisha: What are you saying? I

Abhinandan: used to do it a lot. Ramdev. I'm trying to be funny.

But Ramdev, I saw one thing, he's saying, yaha gud pakdo, yaha chini

pakdo and dekho I can put this arm down because sugar has no power,

I can't push this arm down because it has gud. I was like, dude, this is

like, it's

Shardool: anyway. Like I'm immune to this bullshit, probably. But, so, I

don't even watch him. But my The initial point was that they should have

done this long ago.

If it took this much defection within the India bloc for them to divide the

seat, I have no hope. Like, especially when your opponent is, you know,

much, much more powerful than you, then you have to be agile and

quick on your decision making, at least if nothing else.

Raman: No, if the, if the [00:48:00] interest of the politicians as a body

get hurt.

That's the time when they, yeah, they become one, they, they, they

make a flock and, uh, they become part of the flock and they, they, they,

they share seats. I mean, that

Abhinandan: is the main. Yes. So on that note, joining us from Mohali,

his hometown is many of you already know agricultural scientist,

Devendra Sharma.

Welcome Mr. Sharma. Thank you

Devinder: very much. I'm so delighted to be amongst, uh, uh, some of

the brightest stars of journalism. I

Abhinandan: admire you. Are you sitting in the Times Now studio? No,

Devinder: I, I would never do that, but I really, I really like, um, uh, News

Laundry. Whenever I get time, I do do go back to see what you guys are

saying.

And I think it is very fascinating to be here with you.

Abhinandan: Thank you so much. So much. Uh, most of our audience

already knows Mr. Sharma, but for those of you who are joining us new

because a lot of youngsters, [00:49:00] by the way, I'm very thrilled. So

many new students are becoming subscribers. I must say you guys are

a lot smarter than I was.

I was only forced to start working in India today because my sister didn't

want me hanging out with the badmashers of North campus. So very

reluctantly I was sent into India today office to do research. But

voluntarily, so many students are becoming. Subscribers. Thank you. I'm

extremely proud of all of you.

So Devendra Sharma is an agricultural scientist. He's an award winning

journalist, writer, a researcher. He is well known for his views on food

and trade policy. He has in fact, uh, articulated some of the most

informed views on the agrarian crisis, not just in the context. of what is

happening right now at the borders of Delhi.

But if you've been following this issue for the last decade or two, you

would definitely know who Devinder Sharma is. He's been a visiting

fellow to the International Rice Research Institute in the Philippines. And,

uh, he was awarded the honorary degree of professor at large by the

CSK Himachal Pradesh.

Agricultural University. His interview on the [00:50:00] farmers MSP

demands in the Indian Express is there in the links. It's there in the show

notes. You can click on it and you can even read

Manisha: that. One of our videos also that spoke at length with farmers

on the MSP Sharma talking to Basant.

Abhinandan: Yes. So let's start with this.

I mean, last week also we discussed the farmers protest and there was

a lot of violence. Uh, one farmer has died, a very young man of, I think

24 and 21. Two different news sources that I saw, one, you know, put

him at 24 1 or 21. Uh, the Haa Police denies that this happened because

their action earlier, there was a denial that it happened at all.

Mm. Uh, now there is some sort of a corroboration of this young one.

Young man lost his life. No one is yet willing to commit that. Was it a

gunshot? Was it a head impact? You know how it was, but one

Manisha: minus said that there'll be serious section against the person.

Abhinandan: But if it's the police, I mean, I wonder what Bhagwan man

can do, but, uh, it's, it's reached that kind of crisis point.

There is a meeting underway right now, not [00:51:00] very far from

where, uh, Mr. Sharma is joining us from in Mohali. That's happening in

Chandigarh. Yeah. So, uh, Mr. Sharma, you've seen all the

conversations around this, of course, a lot of the. Conversation also gets

derailed into someone calling someone a Khalistani and it became this.

Yeah, it gets into this loop. Um, the one new element that has emerged

is that Punjab farmers will get an MSP. Other states won't. Uh, what is

the logic behind that offer? Apparently that offer was on the table, if at all

that's on the table. And what more can you tell us as the main issues

that can actually be solved and which you think objectively cannot really

be solved.

In the short run. Well,

Devinder: I think before we look into the MSP offer that you talked

about, it is important to first understand the kind of distress that prevails

in the farming [00:52:00] sector. And I think once we are familiar or

aware of how severe the crisis is, I think lots of our thinking falls into

place, you know, uh, you know, for, uh, Several decades now that at

least I have been looking at agriculture, I find the biggest crisis that

farmers face is a crisis of survival.

And when I say a crisis of survival, I think we have not perhaps realized

in that sense that the average income from farming, when I say average

income from farming, what I'm saying is that I don't include the non farm

activities. Is only 27 rupees per day, not 27 per 27 rupees per day

should tell us why are farmers agitated and why farmers feel that this is

perhaps an opportunity for [00:53:00] them to to seek their right and fight

for their right.

You know, when the situational assessment survey for agricultural

household, the latest one that we have is based on 2019 data. And I

guess it was presented somewhere in 2021. It tells us that the average

income of a farming family in India is 10, 218 rupees per month. Now,

10, 000 rupees per month, this is for an agricultural household, which

means somebody may be working as a manrega, uh, you know, for a job

and somebody may be having a shop in the village and so on.

But, uh, you know, 10, 000 rupees for, for an agricultural household, I

think tells you all that agriculture is at the bottom of the pyramid in this

country. And in fact, if you work it out, you will find that this is less than

what the manrega worker gets. Thanks. So, so I think this appalling

situation is something that we have closed our eyes.

Those of us who, who are into policy planning [00:54:00] or are, you

know, mostly living in cities have no idea how desperate the crisis is on

the farm front. And when, you know, over the years, when farmers found

no support from anyone, I would say nobody really stood up for them

and would have, let's say, discussion in the.

Parliament or in the assemblies and so on. I think farmers decided to

take it upon themselves to to to raise their own concerns. And that is

why you saw thousands of people assembling at the daily borders in in

2000 2021. And they stayed there for more than one year and eventually

got the government to withdraw the three laws.

But more important, I think, as I was saying earlier, that we need to know

how how Serious is the crisis, you know, let me give you another idea

before we proceed further that Oecd the organization for economic

cooperation and development, which is the world's richest trading bloc

Had in a [00:55:00] study some years back presented a data, which was

shocking And it said that between 2000 and 2016 16 years.

You know, in fact, the Indian farmers lost 45 lakh crore rupees. Wow. 45

lakh crore. Did you see any discussion happening anywhere in the

media or in a university or in parliament? Some question being asked if,

if imagine if the industry had lost five lakh crore. There would have been

a, you know, everybody would have been up in arms saying we are

faced with policy paralysis.

The government should come up with the economic stimulus package,

tax cuts and so on and so forth. You know, I'm sure you will agree, but

for farmers, nobody bothered. Whenever I was raised this question in

my, in my TV shows or discussions, you know, people would just listen

from one year and forget about it.

No, that is something which tells me how, how, you know, ignorant or

how, you know, we, we are not [00:56:00] even concerned or bothered

about the, the other half of the country. And how

Abhinandan: low it is on the priority list. And, and, and, you know, just

to drive the point, what you said, I've mentioned this once before, long

ago in the Hafta.

I remember I was working with the channel cause I've worked with about

four channels in my life in various capacities as a producer, et cetera, et

cetera. Uh, and when the budget show was happening and when the

budget show is happening, there'll be one Ficky representative and CI

representative, uh, back in the mid 2000s, there's two, three were

standard.

That'd be ICICI car, the person who went on to become that bricks bank

chairperson come at then that'd be Pavan Manjal of, uh, Pavan Manjal of

Hero Honda. That'd be three for industrialists. I remember, uh, one

young, not young journalist, but a fairly senior journalist who was, who

had, uh, her mind in the right place said, we should, if we're talking about

the budget, it's a national budget.

No, it's not an industry budget. Don't you think we should get someone

who can represent, let's say farmers or laborers, because [00:57:00]

that's. So they had called from Rajasthan, Dey, who works with, uh, Arun

Arora. So Nikhil was on his way from Rajasthan in a vehicle. While he

was on his way, one industrialist who I don't want to, said, I want to also

be on the show.

And because his related company was sponsoring the show, they, he

had to, but they only had one more space. They said, okay, call him.

Nikhil was halfway there, they said, forget it, we don't need him. That is

how budget shows happen. So it hasn't happened out of the blue that

these guys suddenly came on the border.

We, then the media have also been guilty of ignoring what is their

requirements. So that's the context. Please carry on, sir.

Devinder: So, uh, you know, this was one way to understand what is

happening in the rural areas. The other would be another interesting, I

think I should place that on table, you know, we all need to appreciate.

Uh, the studies, which actually bring out the stark realities, you know, uh,

when in [00:58:00] 2016, the government said that they're going to

double farmers income in another five years. The question I was asked

on the television on the budget day was, but what is the income of the

farmers? You know, that they're going to double.

And I remember I, you know, saying that, um, you know, two days

before the budget, uh, economic survey came and economic survey had

said that the average income of a farming family in 17 states of India,

which means roughly half the country is only 20, 000 rupees a year,

which means less than 1700 rupees per month.

I thought, again, that should have shaken up the country, but no.

Everything goes on as usual. And 1700 rupees per month is something

that I can't even hear a cow in 1700 rupees. If you live in cities and if you

have a pet dog, you can't even hear a pet dog in a 1700 rupees. But

imagine how the farming families have been surviving in just 1700

rupees across the country.

I would say half the country when I say, so I think it. Gives you a

[00:59:00] picture how serious and severe is the farm crisis and how we

have just pushed it out from our, uh, our, our view. And this reminds me

of a blockbuster, you know, a book that I always respected Susan

George saying how the other half lives. I think that is what this depicts

right in a country like India, you know, we are not even concerned about

the other half.

And anyway, so this I think would give you a bigger picture, a broader

picture of why the farmers are agitated, uh, you know, the way they are

Abhinandan: now. Now, um, after this, others can come in with their

comments or questions, but I had this one question. Mr. Janam, what is

so unique about farming that the world over it has to be subsidized or at

least underwritten?

That's true for the US. It is one of the most, I mean, in fact, there it's,

there is a pushback by, you know, so called the urban working class

that, yeah, they are given or anything that they want. Farmers cannot be

[01:00:00] messed with. They want free trade for everything else. Now,

of course, protectionism is You know, become trendy.

But even when the Washington consensus of free markets, free trade

being the mainstay, the main narrative, even then us farmers were

protected like really doggedly, uh, the Spain, the Spanish farmers are

protesting as we speak. What is it about farming that every country in

almost every economy in the world, which is a functioning economy.

I don't mean like. You know, a Pakistan or something economy that isn't

really functioning. Why is it that the farmers have to be watched out for

so carefully? What is it so unique about farming? A high risk business. Is

it a business that is not viable? Is it a business? People are not leaving

when they should be leaving it.

What makes it so unique?

Devinder: I think it is. It is very, very, uh, I mean, I would say wanting for

everyone to understand why is it that farmers everywhere in the world

are crying and farmers everywhere in the world are in a crisis. You

know, when [01:01:00] you talked of America, you know how much they

are subsidized and so on.

And if you look at Europe now, you know, And of course, you know

about India, you know, the point is that the economic design that the

world has cast is based on markets, free markets. Now free markets

everywhere in the world have repeatedly said have failed to enhance

farmer's income. You know, if you look at America, look at European

Union or India or the Southeast Asia, you know, this has been the, uh,

the, the situation everywhere.

Now, the point is that economists still haven't learned any, uh,

economists still haven't learned any lesson. So they go on saying that,

okay, if you are in crisis, uh, we should provide incentives or a budgetary

support to see that happens, you know, to your losses are covered.

Now, even when in America, I, I, I recalled a period when Richard Nixon

was the president and that's in the early seventies, you know, his

agriculture secretary had made that infamous [01:02:00] statement

saying get big.

Or get out. That was a statement which pushed people out from

agriculture in America. And today at that particular time, 15 percent of

our people, 15 percent of the people were in agriculture. Today, hardly

1. 5 percent people remain in agriculture in America. Now, this is what

the, uh, the, the other institutes had also recommended to India, you

know, move up or move out.

That is what is, is the, is the suggestion for India. And, uh, you know, so

what I'm trying to say is all over the world, this is the kind of design that

we have cast. So we want to move people out of agriculture into the

urban area, because our thinking is that, um, uh, your economic growth

will, will, will only go up if, uh, If you have lesser people in agriculture.

Now, the point is that markets, as I was illustrating about, let's say

America in America, in 2020, when, when, um, Donald Trump was

fighting elections at that particular time, American farmers were, uh,

[01:03:00] indebted with 425 billion. That was the kind of bankruptcy

faced, you know, the sector was facing. And if you, if you see even

today, America provides a 30.

Uh, no, sorry. The suicide rate in rural America is 3. 5 times more than

the national average. It tells you how devastated the American

agriculture also is. And if you just look at how American agriculture is

supported, every farmer in America gets a subsidy support or domestic

support, they call it, of roughly about 80 lakh rupees per year.

Abhinandan: And they also protect their market from foreign agriculture.

All those

Devinder: factors are included in not only protection, you know, they get

a lot of incentives to push their market, uh, to see that, you know, the,

you can go and open up the country's economy and so on and so forth.

All these kinds of, uh, you know, um, uh, support is already there, you

know, uh, just in case of wheat, there was a study that showed that

There were 40 [01:04:00] kinds of different, uh, you know, uh, uh,

projects or programs under which subsidies were being given there.

So all I'm trying to say is with this, this kind of massive support, uh, the

markets haven't given farmers an income. It is the support that they.

That the government comes up with that sustains agriculture. Now, if

you're in America, now, if you look at the European Union, 16 countries

have faced a farmer's protest in the last few weeks, you know, and we

know German farmers, French farmers are protesting in such a

aggressive way this year.

That, you know, they didn't follow the kind of a convoy kind kind of

approach. You know, tractors marching in one lane this time they were,

they were as, uh, uh, rude as, uh, they, you know, you normally don't

expect them, but they were, and they, they, they, they, you know,

sprayed the manure on the office buildings and, you know, all those

kinds of things.

As you know, they also stopped the highways. They also stopped the

railways, and they didn't only do it in Berlin, but they did it in most of the,

you know, bigger cities, [01:05:00] uh, in, uh, in Germany. And yet. The

German president said that farmers have the right to protest, and we did

not see a kind of a police repercussion or reaction the way we are

seeing in India.

Similarly in France, France said that we are going to, French farmers

said we are going to siege, siege around Paris, and they did it. And so

on, you know, farmers protested outside the European commission in

Brussels and, uh, you know, through all kinds of things at the, at the, at

the building. But the point I'm trying to make is they were everywhere,

you know, uh, invited or accepted to, to come up with whatever they are

trying to say.

And, uh, nowhere police, uh,

Shardool: you know,

Abhinandan: uh, yeah, guns and all that earlier that they denied the use

of pellet guns, but there's so many video evidence of. Pellet guns being

used. Clearly being used is, is the police still denying the use of pellet

guns? I mean, or they haven't clarified? 'cause I think that's the trend.

I don't Can the first deny then they don't

Shardool: clarify. I don't, they haven't clarified. They haven't

Manisha: clarified. But you can see from the

Abhinandan: injuries. Yeah, of course it's clear from, they may be

[01:06:00] rubber pallets, but they are stills. Yeah, of course they will

usually rubbers. But what is they even deny using rubber pellet guns.

So, uh, you know, Manisha, you have, you wanna weigh in on

Manisha: this? Yeah. Why this question of yours on why is, what is so

special about farming? I think there's one. Undeniable emotional aspect

to this, you know, these are the people that feed us. And in India, we've

had an old slogan of Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan. So there is definitely, I think,

an emotional aspect to farming.

But, uh, there's a very good piece in the Indian Express by Harish

Damodaran who really illuminates this issue very well, where he says

that there's no other business in the world apart from farming that deals

with the double whammy and uncertainty at the production level and at

the pricing level. So no auto car maker or FMCG company deals with the

production crisis in the way that farmers do that.

Okay. Unseasonal rain, hailstorm, pathogens. So you're not sure at the

very. First level of what may come off your hard work, then the kind of

price volatility they deal with, and he gives the example of Jira, which

fluctuates [01:07:00] from 25, 000 a quintal to 75, 000 a quintal from the

time of harvesting to selling it off.

So there's so much volatility in price that there's no surety. The farmer

gets at the second level of once. Okay, you've come out of the vagaries

of the weather, whatever you have your crop ready. Now you don't know

whether you'll get the price or not. What you thought when you sold the.

You know, sodium crop at the first.

So I think at the heart of it, what farmers really simply want is some sort

of a minimum assurance that for our hard work, for what we do, we get

some baseline protection, which is not very difficult to understand. It's

not very unreasonable. It's not very unreasonable. Especially if you look

at, like Devendra ji was saying, the farm income stagnating and simply

farming being an uneconomical activity.

You have such a large population engaged in a business which is just

not economical

Abhinandan: for And see the paradox. It is the most important to keep

us alive. Exactly. Yet, yet the market has not been able to come up with

an equilibrium. Which makes it sustainable. So whether

Manisha: MSP or not is a different thing, but I think two major failures on

part [01:08:00] of this government aided by the media is that right from

the first farm protest, there's just an unwillingness to engage in good

faith.

Just, and you know, Basant has actually done a very good video.

Talking to these farmers there.

Have very reasonable explanations for what they want. You may not

agree with them. You may have an economic view which says no, you

cannot tamper with the market, so you need supply and demand to work

the way they do. You may have other solutions for it, but what they're

[01:09:00] asking for at baseline is very reasonable.

These are people who are very aware of their own business, their own

industry, and they're asking for something, I think, very, very logical. So

at the government level, there's just basic level of mistrust because

you're unable to engage with them. And this is what the government said

two years ago that we're going to have a committee and we're going to

seriously deliberate on the question of MSP.

But you don't have any representative from the farming community on

that. Like Devendra ji was saying, this whole thing of doubling incomes,

nothing has happened of it, despite such low level of income. So you

don't want to just engage in good faith and of course, add to that, we

know this from media rhetoric, how their spokespersons come and say

Khalistani, Khalistani.

And it's become so vicious that this week we saw in completely

unrelated development, you know, a police officer, Sikh police officer

being allegedly called Khalistani at a BJP protest. Which hurts, you

know, and this is a community that has so much representation in the

army so much represent the police in [01:10:00] businesses in the

farming community.

So I think that more than you can have different economic outlooks on

this issue, but I think there's an unmistakable. problem of not engaging

in good faith and this thing of not allowing protests. I mean, you're

digging up obsession. That

Abhinandan: is nuts. That is just a Modi Shah obsession.

Manisha: Like it's happening all over the world.

Where do you see, you know, nails being driven in pellet guns being

used? Complete blockade of the road. And they're saying, you've made

it into a border. You've made it into a border, we can't cross. I think

there's

Raman: a politics about it. I mean, they want to create a narrative that

these are the rich farmers who come from Punjab.

They differ. They are different from the rest of the farmers. Okay. So

that's that kind of narrative they are

Manisha: trying to. In the same week, they've increased MSP for

sugarcane farmers. Yeah. Because BJP in a way because RLD is gone

with BJP. So I think there's also a political angle of. BJP not finding its

feet in Punjab.

[01:11:00] So just go to hell. We don't care what you do there.

Abhinandan: Yes. Yeah. Shardul. I

Shardool: have many things to say. Sure, please. So one about this rich

farmer thing. And incidentally, I am recoating, recoating a point made by

a Western UP farmer, who incidentally is in the RSS ecosystem. But he

said, and he said in Hindi, I'm paraphrasing that these Mercedes and

luxury cars bother you only when they are owned by farmers.

Otherwise they are fine. And you talk about rims and what music system

you have. But if a farmer owns it, it bothers you so much that how can

you protest and have this car? Also, it's such a skewed view

Abhinandan: of looking at them. Yeah. On this, I just want to say one

quick thing and then you can carry on. You know, because I have a

couple of friends who are quote unquote farmers.

And they're very well off and they have SUVs of 40, 50 lakh. But I just

want to explain because I also asked them. One of them is Dylan. He

has his farm in Shamgarh, which is on the way to Chandigarh. Haryana

border. He has two petrol pumps on either side of the highway street. He

says, [01:12:00] and one of those petrol pumps has a franchise of one of

these KFC.

And he has a workshop there. He says, dude, I make about 10, 12 lakh

from my two petrol pumps. The farms are making no money. And that

also. I mean, it's my land because, you know, these tillers and carers,

they have already, he said, but that is, it's been given out to guys who

are cultivating, probably he takes some money from them and it's up.

He says, they are the farmers. I make the money from my true petrol

pumps and that, that can support my lifestyle. Farming is not supporting

my lifestyle. For the protest, he says, I will give resources. Yeah. So yes,

he's rich, but he's not rich because of his farm. He's rich because of

petrol pumps. Just, just so we

Shardool: are clear.

No, even if they are like, let's say somebody's profitable, you should

appreciate that at least somebody got rich. Now to another point. And I

was, I was really amazed while Sharma ji was talking. I made that

calculation. If it's 27 rupees a day, that makes it 810 rupees a month,

[01:13:00] 9720 a year. This is nothing.

This is below poverty line. Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And the other point,

which I made in charcha too, like farmers are not getting appropriate,

like sustainable price for their crop, but food inflation has been going up

consistently for years now. So this business of middleman is very

profitable. In

Abhinandan: fact, sorry, that's one thing that I really want to point out

and this is so tragic and it's such a.

It's such a petty and horrible villainy. I saw, I mean, I don't want to get

the name wrong, but I think it was Manisha's favorite anchor, uh, who

was, the narrative he was pulling off is, this is what the farmers want.

Iska matlab, aapka khana zyada mehenga hoga. Woh har cheez

Basically, he was pitting his viewer against, if these guys demands are

met.

You guys are in trouble. Your budgets are in trouble. That was how he

was giving this information to his viewers. I was like, dude, [01:14:00]

why do you have to turn your viewers versus farmers if their demands

are met? You guys will be bankrupt. Best was

Manisha: Arnab whose hashtag was expose luxury protest. It's a luxury

protest.

And he had Sohail Seth on. Sohail Seth on. This

Abhinandan: is all drama. Sohail Seth, kuch bhi ho jaye Sohail. Sohail

Seth, actually, since you're talking about farming, the one good thing that

in life is a aloo. Kya banai? Biryani, Bengali biryani me bhi aloo dal dete.

Acha, aap kya banare ho?

He so he'll say, so he,

Raman: no, no. I'm saying that, uh, our colleague Ari comes from the

farmer's family. Mm. And he put out one thing very eloquently and very

simply, he said, sir Ram.[01:15:00]

Yeah, as farmers.

Abhinandan: Actually, that's something I want to ask the vendors. I saw

this, um, uh, I think this was one really good, uh, I, I think it was in re that

was doing it. Uh, it was a, a really good graphic. Farmers sell it at 2.5

per kilo market price, 32 rupees. So everything from tomato to lu sun to.

Everything was in the range of 1.

kilo at the farming stage. And at retail stage, all those things are

between, you know, 25 to 65 rupees a kilo. Just explain to me, how does

this happen? Because I think over a long term project, NPR had done

this project on cotton from buying the bales of cotton from American

farms. to spinning them into t shirts in Philippines and selling them to

their audience to show how the economy works.

If it is that huge, I don't mind, you know, buying a refrigerated truck. See,

we'll get the [01:16:00] subscribers to pay for it. Let's just rent it, drive it

once a week to Haryana, load it up. Come let's see. Where is this money

going in the middle, Devendraji?

Devinder: You know, I think, uh, what this discussion you had was

pointing at two things.

First of all, your point that why is it that you talked about aloo pyaad and

you also talked about inflation part. Let me ask you a question, you

know, and that perhaps goes back to that point I raised earlier that there

is the economic design is something that we have to understand first to

see why there is a crisis in agriculture.

You know, it is basically the macroeconomic design, which is keeping

agriculture impoverished. And I have often said that, that we have

deliberately kept agriculture impoverished. Now, let me explain, you

know, we are going to be a 5 trillion economy. You know, we all are very

proud of it. But tell me one thing.

How is it that aloo pyaaj prices [01:17:00] shake up the economy? Aloo

pyaaj prices go up and everyone is saying, Oh, inflation has gone up.

Food inflation has gone up. And so we must do something. The Reserve

Bank of India steps in to see that, you know, the inflation is brought

down or kept at that level. They go for interest rate and all those kinds of

things.

And I sometimes wonder, kya ho gaya? Uh, even if the prices zoom, let's

say total budget, average budget in this country, I'm saying average is

between 10, 000, 10, 20, 000 rupees. Okay. There's such a big noise,

how cleverly it has been done that what actually drives inflation are

housing, health and education.

These are not counted in the consumer price index. You only count

wheat and rice. Sorry, wheat and rice or aloo pyaj. And the result is, you

know, 45 percent weightage is for food products in that CPI [01:18:00]

index. And so every time agriculture prices go up, there is a hullabaloo.

And as you were mentioning that MSP also increases.

Let's say it increases twice a year for different crops. That'd be

newspaper editorial. So I think it's all of inflation, but you know, all those

kind of things, but the reality is we have actually hidden that, uh, you

know, the sections which actually drive inflation education. I hear a lot.

Okay. Good job.

Okay. Come on. Yeah. And if you are sending your child, let's say to, to,

to Canada, You are even selling off your land and uh, you know, but that

is not counted as inflation, right?

Because, you know, we, over the period they have programmed us to

believe ki inflation, you have a food inflation and, uh, that will upset your

budget. So we have now got. uh we have not got [01:19:00] or we're uh

we have not got or we're uh we have not got or we're got this is got this

is

This is what is actually creating the problem all over the world. It's not

only in India, it's in America, it's in Europe, or it's in Canada and so on.

Abhinandan: And the differential of of, you know, the farmer level, the

price, and at retail level, why is it so huge? And if it's so huge,

Devinder: gimme a minute. Sure. You know, uh, if you look at the Cano

crop in, uh, Punjab this year, you know, we had a record surplus and,

uh, the prices crashed to five rupees per kilo. And, uh, the, the consumer

price is 50 rupees per kilo, so [01:20:00] five rupees to 50 rupees.

And this is, uh, when the hooker comes and sells at your place. But if

you go to the organized retail also on the, on the, on the internet and uh,

see what the prices are, that will be still relatively higher or maybe

comparing to that only. But the point here is the file ru piece. You bought

the produce and you are actually 10 times more is what the consumer is.

This is not only in the case of a canoe, but as, uh, as, uh, Manisha said

earlier, Jira is a classical example. Uh, last year they were throwing, or

they were, you know, farmers were saying that they suffered a huge

loss. It's worthwhile production goes less. And so the prices zoom up.

Similarly for, for lesson and, uh, You know, uh, you know, for, uh, other

crops, we have seen this happening periodically.

That is the kind of, uh, uh, volatility that we are talking off. You know,

sometimes the prices zoom to metal prices, go up to 200 rupees. And

more often than not, we find the farmers throwing, uh, tomato onto the

streets because they are not [01:21:00] even getting two rupees. So in

this condition, what is happening?

There is a chain of a middleman, you know, and that middleman, it's not

only one or two, it's a series. I remember a couple of days back, you

know, when the cauliflower prices were down, I asked, I went to a

market and I asked them, I said, you are giving me at, um, you know, uh,

One kilo for five rupees, uh, please tell me what would have the farmer

been farmer would have received if you are paying me or if you're asking

me to pay only five rupees per kilo and he said, sir, I am the third in the

chain.

So imagine what the farmer would have got. So, so if you look at this

kind of, uh, uh, the system that prevails, we have a layer of middlemen

operating and they walk away with their share and the poor farmer and

the consumer both suffer. And I think we haven't made any effort to see

that this system, which is exploiting the farmer, is taken care of.

We don't have any regulation to see that we can bring this chain under

[01:22:00] control. And of course, as you rightly mentioned, the price is

zoomed. We don't even know. So that is what farmers are saying. If

there is a minimum support price is legalized, then what will happen is

that consumer would also benefit.

Why? Because let us say we have fixed up a price for, uh, of 10 rupees

for tomato. I'm just giving you an example. So when 10 rupees is fixed,

then the consumer also knows if I'm being charged 40 rupees, he knows

that he has been exploited. Okay. And then at least, you know, they can

also exercise their right to say, you know, I, I will not be able to pay if

you're 40 rupees or 50 rupees, whatever it is.

So anyway, this is one, one, uh, you know, Uh, was a recommendation.

If it all is accepted, people believe that would be helping the consumers

also. But still, I think this is a factor which needs to be, as you rightly

mentioned, regulated in a manner that we have a kind of a system

operating, which says key by Oh, how much you can perhaps, uh, you

know, uh, let's say a commission or a profit that you can earn [01:23:00]

when you sell farmers produce.

That is why I have been saying very often that farmers should get at

least a 50 percent of the end consumer price. Right. So

Abhinandan: one quick question, and then, you know, we can come

back to Shardul and Raman, sir. Isn't this a good opportunity for an Amul

type cooperative to actually take over? So all farmers are presented, if

they have shares in that cooperative, I mean, that Amul model.

Is there a reason that can we not be replicated instead of just dairy in

case of, you know, produce as well, farm produce? So is, is there some,

When

Devinder: Varghese Kurian was alive, the milkman of India, in one of

my interviews with him, he had told me that when the, give me some

time, I will have a same Amul kind of model for oil, seeds, pulses, and

fruits.

And he would have gone in that direction. So if he can, he can talk about

it. And if he had the thoughts, I think we can still do it. You know, when

you talk of Amul kinds of cooperative, one thing, let me tell you, Amul is

an [01:24:00] excellent model for benefiting for, for giving the benefit to

the farmers. You know, you, when you buy milk from the cooperatives,

uh, I think we must know that roughly, you know, if you, if the end

consumer price is a hundred rupees milk that you bought, 82 percent on

an average goes to the farmer.

That's the kind of a model that we need. You know, that would, uh, that's

what I said. I was saying 50 uh, percent of the end consumer price

should go to go to Farmer. And here we have about 80% going to

Farmer. Uh, I think, uh, that is why Amul has grown, uh, as you rightly

mentioned. And then of course, the other cooperatives took over or, or,

or followed.

And I think, uh, uh, we have to learn from the

Abhinandan: Amul model. Yeah. Uh, you was want to complete your

thought. I

Shardool: have a couple of small points. One would like, I, I don't know

where I read it. I forget now that article or that report said that average

spend of a farming household in rural India, the 50, almost 50 percent of

it is spent [01:25:00] now on food expenses, which is staggering, which

is, which is dangerous.

Like you don't have money left for anything else. And this, despite that

most of the farmers are incentivized to, you know, grow cash crops, they

are not even practicing that cyclical type of agricultural thing, which

replenishes the soil. If, if the situation is like this in cash crops, if you, if

you bring in the climate angle into it.

Right. This is a dire situation. And the thing is like, if we have

cooperative model and so many states have different milk cooperative,

then why aren't we doing it? Like this, it's just systemic inefficiency.

Other small point I had with Abhinandan made was that they didn't allow

Nikhil Dey to come to budget discussion.

Abhinandan: Like they didn't not allow him, but they said he was not a

preference. He was not. I mean, and after the fact that every panel

discussion are only Yeah.

Shardool: So because like, in my opinion, that is probably because

[01:26:00] A representative or a person who speaks for farmers or from

the lower strata of society doesn't speak in that language or with that

vocabulary.

It leaves a bitter taste in especially industrialist or capitalist mouth. So

they don't like listening to it. It'll spoil the mood, maybe the evening

drinks.

Abhinandan: So before Raman sir comes in and we'll get closing

remarks from, you know, Sharmaji at the end of this, I just want to point

out while we're recording this, The 50th anniversary of the Amul

Revolution is being celebrated right now as we are recording this.

And, uh, Sandeep, uh, who he is, um, I mean, he's an entrepreneur. I,

he's on, in, on Twitter. He has tweeted out the for the Ad of Amul today,

which is Mr. Modi and the Amul girl celebrating GC MMFs Golden Julee.

And Sandeep has tweeted, Amul has removed Dr. Verghese Kurien

from its crucial news communication [01:27:00] today, the man who

literally made it from scratch.

Only Modi Modi everywhere. As if Amul was born in 2014 and there was

nothing before. And in the Mint article I'm quoting, Um, you know, here

are the 10 updates of PM Narendra Modi's visit to Gujarat, as Amul has

turned 50 on 22nd Feb. PM Modi will be present to celebrate the Golden

Jubilee celebrations of Gujarat Cooperative Milk Marketing Federation

on Thursday.

Amol's vision of the next 25 years will also be discussed on Thursday.

Then 1. 25 lakh dairy farmers with representation from 18, 600 villages

will represent, etc. Mr. Modi, of course, will inaugurate five new projects

because he has to inaugurate everything. Uh, he'll inaugurate liter ice

cream plant that will seal this one.

No one else can. During the event, singer Geeta Rabdi will also be

performing. Last month, PM Modi praised Rabdi on X platform before

the Ram temple consecration. Sharing the YouTube link of the bhajan,

PM Modi wrote, The wait for arrival of Ram Lalla in the divine grand

temple. So this is a article about Amul.

Just FYI, [01:28:00] and I'm looking, I'm, I'm still scrolling down. I'm

seeing if there's any mention of Korean, but I don't see any, I'll read four

or five more articles, but I'm just

Raman: saying just one small point about cooperatives, uh, just let me

know. I mean, if I'm right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, see, right now, the

chain of, uh, uh, middle persons that we have, the farmers are so much

entrenched into that system.

They have taken, these, these, these middlemen have given loans

worth, years, you know, for two, two years, three, three years, these

farmers have taken loans from them. And under whatever

circumstances, so they have virtually been giving their, you know,

cultivation free and, and they are, they are committed to a middle

person, uh, for years.

So how the cooperative is going to come. I mean, that is one big thing,

because I, I remember, uh, I mean, I, uh, in the when I try to buy,

[01:29:00] you know, directly from the Farmers, they, they refused to sell

it to me. They said, I mean, we have already committed to, you know,

this middle person, it has to go to this place.

So, so cooperative. Uh, uh, I mean, of course it, it can come, but right

now the situation that we have is pretty difficult. Right.

Abhinandan: So, uh,

Manisha: in fact that was one of the reasons for protest by farmers also.

Now they preferred the middlemen to a new system that we have a

personally gonna ask for.

Shardool: Yeah.

Devinder: Middleman is the ATM for the farmer.

So I think that is one factor which is very important to understand. But I

don't, uh, think that we can't reform the trade we can. And if you really

want to, it is possible to do it. And I think we should try to see how we

can perform the trade in a manner that, uh, you know, the one, the

number of functionaries is reduced.

And also to see that the, the, the profit share that they walk away is, uh,

you know, brought to a level that it is workable. And I think this is not

[01:30:00] possible to do it, but to replace that with the. with the big retail

or the big companies hasn't worked anywhere in the world. People, a lot

of people say that, you know, if the big companies had come, if the three

laws that were withdrawn a couple of years back were implemented, we

would have addressed the issue.

Well, if it was so, I don't know why the farmers in Europe should be

protesting. And, uh, you know, we all know that, uh, it even in those

countries where it is a supermarkets, which purchase this stuff from the

farmers, you know, farmers are really in a, in a tough situation there.

And they have been demanding that we are being squeezed by

supermarkets every year and the price share or the.

income share of the farmers is getting reduced to such a level that most

farmers are in the at the verge of quitting whatever remains in

agriculture. In, in Europe, studies have shown that one farmer leaves

agriculture every minute. And that tells you how severe is the crisis also

in Europe. And so all I'm [01:31:00] trying to say is that, you know, this

market mantra as a solution, which means more the bigger.

Companies come in and there, that will provide a kind of a solution.

Sustainable solution to agriculture has failed everywhere in the world.

The point I'm trying to make is why are we struck with that mantra? You

know, that market mantra, then the markets have failed everywhere.

Why can't we really go in for a change?

And now it is time we have, we have seen markets are doing the

damage and why it is a cause for worry is again, if we go back to the

bigger picture that I was talking about, just think. Just think if you buy a

pen, sir, you, it comes with a price tag. If you buy a computer, it comes

with a price tag, buy a car, it comes with a price tag.

The only sector they produce, uh, from which is not coming with a price

tag is agriculture

Shardool: because

Devinder: agriculture has two operations to do to perform. One, it

provides raw material for the industry. So therefore, it has to be kept low.

And second, you know, it also [01:32:00] provides a labor force for the

industry. So to address this particular issue, we have deliberately kept,

as I said earlier, agriculture impoverished all these years.

And the only way forward, I think, is to provide a guaranteed price to

farmers. You know, we can't 75 years is good enough a period to see

that markets haven't worked or delivered in India. So now is the time that

you come up with a guaranteed price or what the farmer saying a legal

mechanism for a minimum support price.

Abhinandan: Thank you. Thank you, Devendra ji. for your time.

Appreciate it.

Devinder: Thank you. Thank you. And, uh, all the best wishes to you.

And, uh, I'm sure you will continue to give us the same kind of exciting

news and analysis. Thank you. Thank you very

Abhinandan: much. All right. Now, before we wind up, let's get the

emails. If you have anything to say, you can mail us at podcasts at

newslondon.

com. I repeat podcasts at newslondon. com. A simpler way is you just

click on the link in the show notes below, uh, and only subscribers

emails [01:33:00] and Critique is entertained. Non subscribers, we value

you, but we don't really read your emails. Manisha. So

Manisha: our Ram Mandir letters continue. The first one is from Rajiv

Kumar, who says regarding Shardul, I agree with the point that not

everyone happy on 22nd is a bigot or a Modi supporter.

However, this guy Shardul will plug in his fake narrative whenever he

comes to the podcast. Several months back, you were an atheist. It was

atheists never getting power, about which I wrote a factual response, but

that letter was never included in the podcast. And this time it's organic

movement. If you consider NL subscribers to be learned people, don't

bring misinformed individuals.

When did you say this? Atheists never get in power. Let me

Shardool: respond quickly. I had said once you are atheist. No, no, I

had said that I don't follow any religion, but I will not consider myself

atheist. But this There was a discussion on Hafta, I forget about what,

but I had said that for all practical purposes, atheists never really came

into power as a civilization.

As a block of people. [01:34:00] No, no, not

Abhinandan: block. Blocks came. In power. They never were

controlling.

Shardool: Where they could shape the very society. Communists came,

but they failed. And even they couldn't change the Christian roots of

Russian society. That's what my limited point was at that time. Organic

moment point was made by.

Anand, that this was an organ, organic movement, but I agree that it is,

in many ways, it was organic. It was made and started and conducted by

VHP more than BHJP.

Raman: Toh Anand ke kande pe bandhu

Shardool: kyu chalane ho? Sir, my problem is I speak the truth no

matter the cost.

Abhinandan: My opinion and truth are different things.

Clear. Make this point whether it's an that way, but whether it's an

organic movement or not is, I mean, I think that's opinion.

Raman: That was anan. But you, you, you also said it, but

Abhinandan: we have, we have a bunch. I also said that, but Yeah, but

we have a bunch of emails. Let's read them also. We can have one

consolidated

Manisha: this point.

Yeah. So should I just read the one on Ramer? Yeah. Read all the ones

on Ram. This is the first [01:35:00] time I'm writing, I believe. I was

extremely disappointed by the opinions expressed on the Ram Mandir

episode. I was positively repulsed by the entire event since the SC

judgment, and hopefully I'm not in total minority.

Also, the justification later that people are not well read is kind of

shameful, when with people who are casually religious. Which might be

the majority who are also gullible in my opinion. It was kind of expected

later when I thought about it as the diversity within your organization is

still not up to par, which would need drastic improvement.

It would be interesting to see a more marginalized set talking about the

event with respect to caste, class, belief, etc. It really felt like a TV

debate with no one shouting. The neutrality was really disarming and

really you should bring more folks like Professor Ravikanth. Who is

forthcoming with the sarcasm and expect more guests like that.

More power to you. Pick up the pitchforks more often. Right. Okay,

Bhavesh says, Congratulations on completing 12 years. End of this year

will be my decade long association with NL. Wow. Nice. I've been

meaning to write this a week, few weeks ago, but I waited for thoughts to

settle down. This is in [01:36:00] support of what Shardul and many

others feel about Ram Mandir.

My letter is addressed to people who expect well read and well meaning

people to not feel good or celebratory about Ram Mandir. You can't

expect people to suppress their joyous feelings because you don't feel

that way. You can't expect them to feel sad about Babri demolition at the

time when the grand temple of one of the most revered deities at his

birthplace is taking place.

World history is full of injustices. People in power will always take

advantage of those fault lines. Ram Mandir issue is not manufactured by

BJP RSS. They have been riding the wave. I'm aware that the BJP RSS

hate politics and do not approve of it. But my heart was full of emotion

when the Pran Pratishta was happening.

I'm practicing Hindu. I was born in Brahmin family. I follow most of the

rituals, including Yajno Pavita. I'm well aware of untouchability practiced

by my ancestors, but I'm not like them, and I shouldn't be expected to

feel the burden of what of that when I practice my rituals. We even have

a son whose name is Ram.

Do all the above make me a bigot? Hell no. If this kind of thought

continues, then [01:37:00] I'm afraid that in future, my son will have to be

so defensive, and have to say my name is Ram, and I'm not a bigot. It's

becoming increasingly challenging to be liberal practicing Hindu like me.

who I believe is the majority of the population to be able to share their

opinion.

We will most likely antagonize people from one side or another, and this

is exactly why most of us choose to remain silent and hence called the

silent majority. Our younger NL subscribers who feel outrageous on

what people like me and Shardula are feeling will perhaps understand

this later in their lives.

I'm not very articulate like many of our friends, but I hope you get the

crux of what I'm Now, Anonymous says, wanted to comment on the

discussion of Hafta 469 on the consecration of Ram temple in Ayodhya.

It was disappointing that there was no significant pushback to Anand's

reasoning of the widespread celebration on Jan 22.

If as per Anand, the celebration by people with no strong political views

was due to the sense of justice that they are feeling, why don't they

dema Why don't the demand by Arvind Kejriwal of putting picture of

Lakshmi and Ganesh on the currency note gain traction among people?

[01:38:00] It would have liberated India from the tyranny of secularism.

Consider this, Indians in general love festival, events, celebrations. This

is more so in age of social media where people are constantly looking

for something to post on their social media handles. I really agree with

this. I do think that a lot of the Celebrations around all religious activities

have gone up on the social media.

Even the smallest things you want to put up. Add to that the BJP's

complete capture of the means of communication. They created a buzz

around the consecration. When I post a picture of Lord Ram, you would

want to do the same. Many people with no strong political views bang

thalis and talis during COVID.

Many people participated in the cleanliness drives in the early days of

Swachh Bharat Mission. Jan 22 was no different. I thought Anand was

reaching too much into the widespread celebration. If a BJP

spokesperson talks this civilizational wound and the sense of justice

stuff, it is understandable. It's sad when independent commentators like

Anand give legitimacy to such narratives.

Shardul has all the right to be happy, but please remember the temple

was built after demolishing a mosque. The riots before and after that

[01:39:00] have resulted in killing of hundreds of people. The demolition

strengthened the politics which wants to stigmatize, isolate a significant

chunk of the population of our country.

Then he says NL, uh, you know, finds it hard to find people from

Maharashtra. We should get Suhas Palshikar who, one more subscriber

told me this, so we must get him actually on anything on Maharashtra.

Please take note, we'll get Suhas. And he's very glad that he started NL

Sena project on key schemes of the government.

Thank

Abhinandan: you. Thank you Anonymous. Yes. And, uh, appreciate it.

Um, we shall get, whenever Anand does join, we'll just get one joint

overall response of his. But, uh, before we move on to the rest of the

emails, you want to just have a consolidated brief

Manisha: response to all this. One more, I'll just add, there's one more

Shadul email, uh, T800.

Amitabh Bachchan writing in.

Abhinandan: T 800? T 800 is the name. He's written in the past also.

Oh, so, uh, because the T 800 was that cyborg that

Manisha: came. Terminator 1. Yeah. Just a comment. He says that he

gives full support to Shardul when it comes to Ram Mandir inauguration.

Matters of [01:40:00] faith are abstract, complex and personal.

No person should be judged on these things without talking to them

Shardool: personally. So I did think of something. Um, and I read the

previous week's email to all of them that day. There were two reasons

for celebration. One, and I'm glad none of the panelists told it on the air

and had the personal one not be there.

I don't think I would

Abhinandan: be. You were generally in a good mood that day. Yes. So

that is one. Shared the good news in my office. Yes.

Shardool: Two, I told you the reason I was happy and I would like to

categorically point this out. I was not happy about the Mandir. What I

was happy about the Ram and I explained it. I have lived with these

stories in many ways before I was born because my mother used to tell

me she used to sing this in songs and tell me she came from a

Ramayani family for seven generations.

What's a Ramayani family? Ramayanis were those people who used to

sing and do Ram Katha. I see. So she told me these stories [01:41:00]

since I was a kid before I was born. I told this that day. Also. Even if I am

irreligious, even though I am irreligious in practice, I follow no tradition

and I follow, but I don't call myself atheist because I follow, at least I

imagine I follow Sankhya tradition, which discards all existence of God

and any divine power and only believes in Like

Abhinandan: Anand Rangaraj, huh?

Shardool: I don't know what he

Abhinandan: follows. No, no, he's an atheist. Yeah, he was an

Manisha: atheist. I am not atheist. Oh, you're not atheist. Sankhya.

Sankhya.

Abhinandan: But he was an atheist who identified with Hindu culture.

Shardool: I don't follow any culture. Even that day, I said, like, I ate

kebabs this day, but one of the reason I have derived inspiration from

these stories that the biggest Rambhakt in our modern generation was

Gandhi.

And for me, Ram is the Ram symbolizes truth. And I have derived more

power to speak truth to power now. Yeah. So I,

Abhinandan: I, the one thing that I agree is that, uh, I wasn't there for

that [01:42:00] Hafta, but Anand's this thing that this is. The celebration

is a historical injustice. It's not wrong. It's basically like everything is

going wrong in Pakistan.

When the world cup, Pakistan is happy. Things are going up shit Creek

in Argentina. And they were in this world cup happened. Yeah. The

Argentine economy is up shit Creek. Suddenly. The general hostility

towards the ruling government came down and they won the World Cup.

Ronak is infectious. So I don't think there is any thesis of, uh, of, of, I

mean, I would not consider it a credible thesis.

It is because of people, people who I know who are very excited in a

colony, if you really start talking to them about it, they'll say, hi. Yeah.

But they've not thought of all that. Yeah. It's not one

Manisha: thing, I guess. Exactly. It's many things, isn't

Abhinandan: that? Yeah. Okay. But, but I just find that anyone who has

a religious identity.

To be immediately, Oh, this person is that, that's not an effective or a

useful way of actually engaging with people because they have

[01:43:00] various shades of why people are what they are. Their

religiosity is not necessarily, uh, like for example, I have this lovely

saffron shawl, which I had bought on the highway between Kullu and

Manali, where there are these rabbits that they keep and they make

shawls of rabbits.

Yeah. Whatever it's called, mohair, jo bhi hota hai. It's lovely. It's saffron.

Whenever I wear it, I have these super liberal friends. I'm not going to go

with you. Saala shawl meri. Color mere religion ka. Tujhe Just because

someone's wearing a saffron shawl doesn't make that person, you know,

a Modi Bhakt.

That immediate responses are, you know, I just think, yeah.

Shardool: So I remembered this, what I was trying to say, I forgot. That

day also I mentioned we had a two week discussion on hijab in Charcha.

And I find this discussion to be similar and there were Many points made

by everyone that they should be, this is regressive and they should be

changed.

And my point was, [01:44:00] I am not going to judge a woman's choice

of wearing this because I don't know what power she derives from it.

Human beings are complex and it's not one and two thing. And one final

thing about this, then I'll shut up. I asked a subscriber had messaged

me. On the very next day after the release of Hafta in Charchao that

week, and I asked her permission, and her name is Aditi, and she said,

after listening to your celebration thing, I felt a little relaxed, and she

wrote it in Hindi, Jaise meri Ram mein, I get overwhelmed with the

beauty of the idol, I cried, there was a feeling of contentment.

Though I curse the politics and of Motabhai for all the violence that has

led to this. And it, it gave me a sense of validation.

Raman: I feel that if you are a Rambhakta, nothing wrong with that, but

if you legitimize what has happened over there, uh, by your Aastha in

Ram is something which is [01:45:00] questionable. I mean, that is what

has happened on that particular day.

You know, and, and you, you are Ram bhakta, uh, what is wrong with

that? I am not. Why you are Ram bhakta? Because Ram is truth. What

is wrong with it? Nothing is wrong with it. What is wrong is that you, you

as Ram bhakta is trying to legitimize an event. Which, which, uh, you

know, you are rejoicing what is happening over in Ayodhya.

This is something that people,

Shardool: uh, that's a matter of perspective,

Abhinandan: isn't it? Yeah. For them, there's for some, there's a

connection for some there isn't.

Manisha: And I think only, I guess only a believer kind of understands

that. And the other thing is, when you don't believe it's, it's

Shardool: questionable. It's the complexity of faith.

I understand Hinduism enough that places are important and different

idols mean different things. And I can separate that, but people cannot,

but that's a matter of

Abhinandan: perspective. Like, for example, I. I, my sister, my, when

we were young growing up, you know,[01:46:00]

I don't know. Now when I hear that, I feel nice. It's something that, but for

my sister that when she says, when that plays, I'm visualizing years

crushing. Dalits. Yeah. That is what it means to me. So if I were to use

that track in a film, it would be playing, it would be, it would be the

background score of, you know, upper caste men exploiting.

That is what I would use it for. Whereas for me, it's a happy place. So

you see, it's, it's, it's different for different

Shardool: people. It's a matter of perspective. And I am not even a Ram

bhakta anyway. I don't do any religious thing, not

Manisha: even minor ones. Parinay Deep Shah says, Dear NL, I agree

with Manisha's view that Muslim women must be at the forefront of

reforms concerning polygamy.

Anas's argument focusing on [01:47:00] hypothetical consent situations

minimizes the often harsh realities women face under this practice. JST

is suggesting that banning polygamy now is disingenuous due to current

political actions on the Uniform Civil Code seems contradictory. If we

acknowledge the harm polygamy can inflict, any move towards reform,

regardless of origin, is positive.

It's worth noting a significant parallel, the British banning of sati. While

imposed by colonial rulers, this reform ended a horrific practice even

with opposition from orthodox Hindus. Similarly, banning polygamy now

serves the greater good, regardless of broader political agendas. I

commend Manisha for her insights.

While I respect Anna San's contribution, political arguments, defending

polygamy risk, undermining the very real experience of women within

affected communities. Can

Abhinandan: you imagine a film like Released Today? It'll become a

political hot potato

Manisha: Ries,

Abhinandan: another woman basically, um, Deepak, who was such a

bad [01:48:00] actor. I've just amazed. He was a very bad actor. He

marries Salma Agha and then is pissed off with and says talaq, talaq,

talaq. Raj Jabbar falls in love with Salma Agha and just as if you were to

marry her, he is also a very good friend of like in all Hindi movies, you

don't, your best friend doesn't know who you're dating until when you

realize that it's the same girl.

That the beauty of Indian men, they don't know like Amitabh Bachchan

Shashi movies, you know, Vinod Khanna Rakhi and whatever film that

Pyaar Zindagi Hai movie. So then, but after he says talaq talaq talaq in a

fit of rage, he is pining away and he's Having whiskey and listening to

Ghulam Ali's this particular song.[01:49:00]

So he's so miserable that I've been a dick and I've said talaq, talaq,

talaq, that now I want her back that Raj Kapoor's best friend said, I won't

marry her, although she's in love with me, he says, here, take her back.

Like she's goods. Aapki delivery aagayi hai, yahaan par roti phi sign kar

dije. And then Salma Agha says I'm not, you will not decide where I will

go.

Whether you love you one day, , you said, I love you, but my friend loves

you mostly.

Manisha: I am a woman who has been listening to men for centuries.

But today [01:50:00] you will have to listen to me. I ask that the marriage

that cannot happen without my consent, why is it not necessary to

interrupt my yes or no in its breaking or breaking? But Mirza Ufa, I

Song: ask you, what is the

Abhinandan: difference between you and Waseem?

He divorced you like a curse.

Manisha: You divorced him like a gift. He divorced you and showed you

his right. You want to divorce him and make him

Abhinandan: feel your sacrifice. So it was a very progressive for its

time. If that film was released, like Mr. Modi is saying, go watch this

Yami Gautam's, whatever this film that is coming out on Article 370.

He endorsed that also? Yeah, yeah. He said, he says you'll get, you'll

get to know the reality of Article 370. Wow. Shit.

Shardool: But these two friends are dicks here? My friend loves you

more, so

Abhinandan: I'll abandon you.

Manisha: Moving on to our letters, Anonymous says, in a country where

Modi has already ostracized Muslims and now there's a [01:51:00] clear

campaign of hate against Sikhs, can he really continue to ride on that

hardcore Hindu vote to continue winning? Modi's not getting the vote in

Punjab anytime soon, but it does appear that he doesn't care.

Or is the plan to just win these elections? through delimitation, make

everything but the cow belt obsolete, then rule forever. I don't think

everything will be obsolete even. Next is Cordyceps.

Shardool: I always laugh at this.

Manisha: So Cordyceps has basically asked us why we have not

spoken about Sandesh Khali. Sandesh Khali, not Sandesh Khali.

Uh, he says that nuisance didn't make a mention of it and the NL

website only had, uh, Peace on the OCI journalist, which was put up last

Friday. This is deeply disappointing from a news organization that

regularly criticizes Godi media when they don't cover similar stories from

Brijbhushan Singh on Manipur.

Uh, and he's given a wire link to, it's a very good piece, actually, on

everything that has happened there. So Cordyceps, um, nuisance when

we recorded, this was still kind of brewing. So we focused more on

farmers. We did commission a piece [01:52:00] to, uh, Snigdhendu. who

usually writes for us from West Bengal, you know, early last week, but

he fell sick.

He got fever. So then finally we got another person to write and that

piece has been up now for two days on the media, you know,

suppression of media. So that's there. And, uh, I think we did have it as

a headline on Hafta last week. It was there and we, and we've discussed

it today. And another piece is in the

Abhinandan: pipeline.

Yeah. But the first piece that was commissioned was, would have been

up five days earlier.

Manisha: Yeah. And I think, yeah, this is one of the things maybe I miss

about Daily Dozed. Even if a few people heard it, Profora, it covered

everything of the day, so you could avoid all these. But anyway, point

taken. Um, next letter is from Kartik.

He says, Another stellar episode as usual. Please make it standard

practice to have young reporters, either yours or other independent

media houses on Hafta as often as possible. It's great to hear voices like

Sumedha's who put in hard work and get insightful reportage. As an

aside, refreshing to hear from someone who doesn't have a foot or half

in the grave already like most of us all lot.

Please try [01:53:00] to get Nikhil Wagle and his son Parth, who's also a

wonderful journalist, to speak about political situation in Maharashtra.

physical assault that took place. My dear state is where I think the final

battle of BJP's cultural project will be fought as we gave rise to a Godse,

but also Ambedkar and Phule.

Best wishes to everyone. Thanks, Karthik. Aishwarya says in recent

time, the Hafta gets put out as late as 1 or 2 p. m. on Saturday. This is

quite problematic for early risers like me who have to wait inordinately

for the podcast to be published. I understand you may have your own

marketing logic. Algorithm, which perhaps suggests that the best time to

release is afternoon and you may not want it to clash with nuisance.

Actually, we don't want to clash with nuisance. That's the basic thing

which is why it comes out by one ish two hours after nuisance But she

has a good suggestion that why don't you just publish it in the morning

and promote it

Abhinandan: later? Yeah, we should publish it. So those are loyal See

how we can promote it

Manisha: but publish it.

I think on the website it can go up and the YouTube can go to ley

because that we don't want it to clash.

Abhinandan: Yeah. Put it up at nine. 'cause even I, on Saturday when I

wake up is when I get really irritated when [01:54:00] Wil ma that real

time, real time is not there because sometimes even that is upload much

later.

So we should upload it right in the morning. We can. promote it later. But

people who have appointment viewing, they can wake up on Saturday

and immediately start listening to it while doing their yoga. And podcast

Shardool: listening is quite scheduled. Like you have to quickly go

through them.

Manisha: YouTube video chota of that usual one o'clock.

Yeah. Okay. Neil says, love the work, keep it up for the upcoming

election. Who are the major political figures that we are interviewing?

People that matter in power and in opposition seem to be missing from

News Laundry's in depth long form

Abhinandan: interviews. Neil, you'd be surprised how few people agree

to give us interviews.

No matter which political party Yes.

Manisha: Curious to know your take on Prashant Kishore, what he's

been doing in Bihar. He's giving interviews on every channel, but again,

news laundry is missing. Actually, his team has repeatedly asked me to

come to Bihar and cover him and interview him. So maybe the only thing

is going all the way there for one interview.

I don't know if it makes sense, but we'll know they're in touch and we'll

definitely do something with Prashant Kishore very soon.

Abhinandan: But just for [01:55:00] the record, we had asked him for an

interview. In the past, he had said yes, and then he backed out.

Manisha: So it's, yeah. But I think we will get in. I

Abhinandan: mean, we think interviews are valuable and we'd like to

have them, but I mean, we'll go that far, but no further to get an

interview.

Shardool: And for the record, like, personally, I think what he's doing is

valuable, if nothing else. Hmm.

Manisha: And in politics, I think I would not underestimate someone

who puts in the time, just the time factor of just being there for one year

consistently on the road, I think that's something to

Shardool: note. I think all of us have repeated this on multiple times on

different occasions, like there is no substitute for Groundwork in

Manisha: politics.

And he's doing that. Yeah. What happens? We don't know. Um, also

asked about Lellantop. I really love Lellantop. I love watching them. So

yeah. Abin T. Sam says listening to Sumedha's story about her

colleague breaking down made me realize once again, how important

public funded media is. Like Abish said, there are only two views to any

story, one of the government and two of the other side, in most cases,

the actual truth.[01:56:00]

And if we do not fund the media, we will never know the truth. Like Ravi

says, we always know If the government has done something good,

because they have an entire ministry for that. And of course they have

advertisements for that. But we will never know if they've done

something wrong, unless there's media who aren't funded by them to tell

us the truth.

This alone should send. Wait, this is a tongue twister. This alone should

send shivers down our spine. Not should send shivers. Uh, to realize

that we will never know the truth unless public funded media tells us.

Abhi, you should start saying when the public pays, the public gets to

know the truth. Else you'll only know what the government wants you to

know.

What a scary situation. Nice. If we get, just pause and think for a while.

Thank you guys for doing what you do. I for one cannot thank you

enough. Thank you. And we also. And NK,

Abhinandan: Sam. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Abin, thank you. We also can't

thank you enough, man.

Manisha: Anonymous says Khalistan incident in Bengal with the IPS

officer might be the first high profile incident that made the news.

But since the farmer protests ended, [01:57:00] there have been quite a

few cases of Sikhs being approached and either taunted or questioned

about Khalistan. It has happened to a few of my friends as well. It's the

same playbook that's used for Muslims where dedicated Twitter

accounts are formed for fear mongering without.

With out of context clips about Khalistan, there's a concerted effort from

these right wing accounts to do same thing they've already done to

Muslims and create an environment of hate. I almost worry what's going

to happen with this farmer protest intensifying already. It's so dangerous

what they're doing, honestly.

Yeah. I mean, considering everything we've seen through the 80s to just

bring this up when there is no actual ground level reality to this Khalistan

bogey is mindless,

Abhinandan: dangerous. Right. On that note, let's quickly get the

recommendations for everybody and wind up for the week with a very

special song, uh, from Nikah.

Uh, Manisha, who was not born when this film was big. When

Manisha: was it

Abhinandan: released? [01:58:00] Late seventies, early eighties. When

I was a kid, I remember, but even I had good taste to know that this

woman's voice is terrible.

Shardool: Yes. It was like, I was a very young and Some people used to

play it and I thought they would you peep me.

So,

Abhinandan: so what's your recommendation?

Raman: My recommendations. One, uh, Manisha was talking about

Russia. If she's going to see an uprise during her time, I think the last is

ours. It's a very good, uh, docu drama on Netflix. 2000. I think I had

recommended in the past also. So this is one that you. Must watch the

two movies.

Uh, one is Niaad and the other is Rustin. Uh, Niyad is an Oscar

nominee. Uh, it is available on Netflix. Story of Diana Niyad who made

six attempts to, you know, uh, swim for, uh, almost [01:59:00] nine, 96

hours, I think. 96 hours she swam and from Cuba to, uh, uh, Hawaii in,

uh, you know, Hawaii or some other place in the U. S.

But the distance was 96 kilo and she tried six times. She tried when she

was 30. She failed. Now when she grows up and she's into her 50s and

60s, then she tries. So it's a, it's a fascinating story. And then again, my,

uh, my favorite actress, Judy Foster is also part of it. I've, I saw her after

a long time.

So this is one movie and Rustin is about, uh, you know, uh, this, uh, the,

in 1963, he organized, he's a, he follows Gandhi, he, uh, follower of

Gandhi and he, he organizes the biggest film Rally. Political rally in 1963

in the US. Uh, so, and he was, uh, you know, associate of Martin Luther,

uh, Luther [02:00:00] King. So, so, so it's a story about Rustin who was

gay also at that time.

So the kind of, you know, problems that he faced. So it is just a story of

Rustin and that particular public rally. Good, good movie. Hmm.

Shardool: Sounds really nice. I have three recommendations for a

change, not a change, but like, sorry, but none of them are from News

Laundry this week. But the first one is, and this came to my head talking

to another autistic person advocate.

I won't go into the detail, but this conversation has somehow been lost

between Ukraine and Palestine. What's happening in Sudan? And it has

been happening for almost 11 months now. So this is an article in

Guardian from Fred Harter, who's reporting from Addis Ababa. Inside the

Darfur camp where a child dies every two hours.

And almost 11 million people have been displaced because of the civil

war in Sudan. This is the serious one. The second one is, I was really in

conflict. [02:01:00] Which game should I Because we talked about

DRAM and all that, like, my personal stuff. So I'm giving you three things

I love. The honest reporting.

Second is game Baldur's Gate 3, the sensation of last year in gaming

world. Who doesn't know, if you want to learn how to write dialogues,

background music, complex narratives, anything you want. The best

game of all time, Baldur's Gate 3 and the third one is I'm finding I am in

better mental health because I'm regaining my love for romance and all

that.

I used to be so old movie, one of my first favorite romantic movies lost in

translation. It was lovely song. Can you imagine? I was an RSS

Abhinandan: boy. That was Scarlett Johansson's first film, right? I'm

not. Yeah. Not first. But kind of

Manisha: her breakout

Abhinandan: film. It's where he goes to Japan and whiskey and all that.

Yeah.

Bill Murray. Bill Murray. That's

Shardool: right. Wow. It's sort of a May December romance.

Manisha: And the two, it's supposed to be an ode to his ex wives, no?

The director.

Shardool: Ex wife? No. Sophia

Manisha: Coppola written and directed. Sorry. [02:02:00] This is

supposed to be about the divorce from her point of view and I think the

husband made another film.

Shardool: I was too young to know all this. Like, I was in all this stuff,

like 2003. Who's she

Manisha: married to? Sophia Coppola? I don't

Shardool: know. I don't know. But I loved this movie back then also. So

we hid from our parents and you know, it rented the

Abhinandan: CD. I don't even watch films anymore, man. I don't know.

Yeah. I just, I, I've just lost my,

Shardool: so these three

Abhinandan: are my

Manisha: recommendations.

All right. Thank you. So my recommendation is an apple bombs piece in

the Atlantic where Russia killed Navalny. And there's a really poignant

paragraph in it, which I'll read. She says that Navalny is dead because

he returned to Russia from exile in 2021, having already been poisoned

twice, knowing he would be arrested.

By doing so, he turned himself from an ordinary Russian into something

else, a model of what civic courage can look like in a country that has

very little of it. If Navalny showed his countrymen how to be courageous,

Putin wants to show them that courage is useless. This is why I was

wondering about whether there'll ever be a comeupping.[02:03:00]

Come up and sorry, there's a series on Amazon called Expat with Nicole

Kidman, which is, which I quite liked. It's set in Hong Kong. Yeah, she

was raving about it. Hong Kong is so gorgeous. I've never seen it in a

movie, but I really want to visit there. Maybe I

Abhinandan: don't know if it's that worse anymore. I visited in 95.

It was a lovely

Manisha: place. It just looks lovely. It's but, and it seems like there's just

so much culture. And no, but Because of the crackdown. Yeah.

Abhinandan: Yeah. I mean, I mean, Hong Kong is not the, so many

companies have fled Hong Kong. Everyone's out of home. You can't say

what you want. It was buzzing. Basically Hong Kong was the more

cosmopolitan version of Singapore.

Yes. So at the time, yeah. At the time before

Manisha: the Russians took over. And we have a stellar Dhamakedar.

three part series on our website. It's a collaboration with the News

Minute News Laundry. We have spent how many months, two months,

three months on this investigation, painstakingly looking at a pattern,

[02:04:00] a very troublesome pattern where companies are raided.

There is action by central agencies CBI, and there's a pattern where

they. Just happened to donate to BJP after this central agency. It's an

unconnected pattern, but it's a pattern. It's a pattern. So it's You

Raman: have given a very good headline. Yeah.

Shardool: Do you know that? Chat Chapa Jhatpant Chanda. What?

Chat Chapa Jhatpant Chanda.

Abhinandan: Yeah, very nice.

Manisha: Only, you know, that's the fun in language.

Raman: And by the way, it's doing very well in

Shardool: Hindi. Yes. I sent it to everyone who forwards these right

wing articles to me.

Manisha: So do read this. It's behind the paywall. Please send it to your

friends and family. This is a good way to get people to subscribe to

News Laundry also because it's a very, very, it is something that

everyone talks about.

No one has just put it as plainly as we have and no one has investigated

it. But this is really one of those open secrets of the last 10 years.

Journalists talk about it, businessmen talk about it. So do check it out

and please get people to subscribe for the [02:05:00] story. So that

Abhinandan: we can do public interest journalism, uh, my first

Manisha: news minute news laundry investigation together.

Oh, is it?

Abhinandan: Yeah. I thought we'd done a few others before that. Okay.

The first one. So see stronger together. No, we

Raman: did elections

Abhinandan: together, but this is the first investigation. Fantastic. So

two podcasts. One is also on Alexis Navalny. Um, it's, I mean, it just had

me riveted. It's about a half an hour long podcast.

It's um, an economist podcasts one day in the life of Alexia Navalny. Uh,

I mean, I'm just, I think he's a remarkable man. So brave. So he, he wore

his courage so lightly, like it's not a big deal. Almost knowing certainly

he's going to die when he goes back, but he said, I'm going back home. I

shall not go. So, uh, I mean, I, I, it's a wonderful podcast.

It makes you get to know the man and it makes you get to know the

horrible man who he was up against. I really hope his [02:06:00] death is

not in vain and something

Manisha: comes up people are fascinating just to have that sort of

courage is something to be studied. How people are. The

Abhinandan: second is, um, last week there was this one case where

Indian Navy actually.

thought of these pirates off the coast of Red Sea pirates. So, yeah. So,

um, I don't know why it wasn't made such a big deal. I, I thought it would

be made a big deal. Yeah. But I would have thought primetime would be

saying,

Yeah, it wasn't, yeah. Yeah. So I workers, in fact, I, not indeed, uh,

Raman: some foreigners.

Abhinandan: In fact, I read it in B, B, C. But, um, so, so this explains

this podcast that why is America, American, Navy, the worldwide

protector of seas. Cause oceans, wherever there's problem, it's

American Navy that goes, like who gave them the theka ki bhai wahan

bhi problem hai, American Navy jaagi, yahan bhi wahan American Navy

jaagi.

So it's a very [02:07:00] interesting podcast on how it came to be. There

was a reason it evolved that way. So these are my two

recommendations. I'd like to thank our wonderful producer, Aryan, who

in very dramatic circumstances was covering the protests, uh, tear gas

shell blew up. He passed out, the phone got lost and wonderful Nishtha

who replaced his phone as subscriber or he sold it in Chowdhury Bazaar

and Nishtha and Abhinandan Sekhriyar also watched.

But thank you Aryan for your wonderful production on ground and in the

studio. Thank you Anil. A sound recordist. Thank you, Shardul. Thank

you, Manisha. Thank you, Raman sir.

Shardool: Thank you. Thank you. And I want to say one thing, please

read that Sudan article because in an international the one I

recommended, because the point that came up, because all of us from

different countries, the major point made was that this was ignored

because these are black people.

Abhinandan: Right. On that note, we shall leave you [02:08:00] with this

song that, uh, will, uh, educate those of you who don't know about talaq.

And Nika, about talaq and nika in a nasal voice. Have a great weekend.

Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You're changing the world by

changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry

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Abhinandan: And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry

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