Hafta 474: Cross-voting in Rajya Sabha polls, on India being a ‘dictatorship’

This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal, and Jayashree Arunachalam are joined by The News Minute’s executive editor Sudipto Mondal.

On the cross-voting during Rajya Sabha polls in Karnataka, Sudipto points to the similarity in ideological stance of the state’s three major political parties. “There is no difference between the average BJP guy, the average JDS guy and the average Congress guy,” he says. Raman adds that in Himachal Pradesh’s RS polls, some members of the Congress knew beforehand that MLAs of their party would vote for the BJP.

Discussing Dilip Mandal’s article responding to Dhruv Rathee’s video on India taking a turn towards dictatorship, Abhinandan says it’s a weak critique since debunking an idea with “whataboutery” is a nihilistic argument. Sudipto believes that nihilism is an important form of critique for the oppressed classes who have been kept out of power systems for centuries.

This and a lot more. Tune in!

Hafta letters: Atheism in India, academic spaces, farmer protests

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Song: Buddh Aur Naachghar

Timecodes

00:06:13 - Headlines

00:31:44 - Rajya Sabha polls

00:39:41 - Discussing Dilip Mandal’s article

01:06:06 - Letters

01:32:07 - Recommendations

References

NL Sena - Modi 2.0 report card

General Elections 2024 Fund

Rat Miners की आखिरी इच्छा है PM Modi से मुलाक़ात | Ground Report

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Check out our previous Hafta recommendations.

Produced and recorded by Aryan Mahtta, edited by Hassan Bilal. 

Hafta 474

Abhinandan: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta. Angreze apna lagaan aur News Laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chhodte. Welcome to another episode of NL Hafta. We're recording this on the 29th of Feb. That means it's a leap year and this day will come again four years from now. We're recording this at 3.

15 in the afternoon on a Thursday on the last February day of a leap year. In the studio, you can see there is no Maneesha because she's going to be on Charchat this week. But before I make the announcement and get into the discussion, let me tell you who is on the panel. Joining us from Chennai is our colleague, Jai Shree.

Hi Jai Shree. Hello, hello. In the studio, Raman Kripal. Hello. And we have our guest today, uh, from our partners, the News Minute. And thank you so much for all the support you have given us. And our stories did very [00:01:00] well, our joint investigation. And you will see a lot more joint investigations. So it's always the executive editor at the news minute.

He's based in Bangalore. He's in Delhi recording some stuff and we are thrilled to have him in office quite regularly. He has written on everything from community to corruption, politics, and he's here doing a very special podcast series, which you should. Soon. See, maybe in three, four, five weeks, when are we kicking 

Sudipto: off?

As soon as you can give me the go ahead, because you're the teacher. So I'm here. No, honestly, I'm here because, uh, Abhinandan is teaching me and I, and I, uh, I'm really grateful for that. 

Abhinandan: I was expecting something nice now. Dish. So 

Sudipto: I'm, I'm not very comfortable with the, uh, format. No. So AB is teaching me the game, the video 

Abhinandan: game.

I'm trying to convince him to do video more often 'cause I think he's got a fantastic personality for video. And video is a very effective medium. In fact, this entire podcast is on video today purely because so many of you've said so see video? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Video works. Video works. So you gotta do more video.

Absolutely. You should also 

Jayashree: mention that he was in the viral photo of the [00:02:00] two of you. That Danya. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. Everyone's 

Sudipto: making fun of that. . 

Jayashree: Okay. Excellent work by Danya. 

Abhinandan: You saw the video? I saw the video. Yes. Uh, then the one Dhanya tweeted, no? Huh? Yeah. I retweeted that as well. If you're trying to do this office, the serial, yeah.

Yeah. So before we get into the headlines, I have a very important announcement to make and also an apology. Many of you have been facing issues with that app and now I think most of them are fixed by the time this goes up, 95 app issues are fixed. But because not all the issues are fixed, the podcast will still be outside the paywall because that paywall is causing a bit of a problem.

So this app issue started and in some cases even on the website, but basically the app about two, three weeks ago, we faced what is called a DDOS attack on our website and app server. It is basically when someone gets a lot of bots and sends. Traffic to your server through bots, not actual human beings.

And that clogs up your server. I don't know why this is being done. [00:03:00] Apparently I've been told it is not unusual for news websites to undergo these attacks. But we are going through this even now. So because of that, now, when you go onto the website, you see checking whether you're a human or a machine. So that is why you get that pop up.

We're fixing these issues and that's the reason some of you see that cloud fare verification, a DDoS attack. As soon as we've mitigated it, things should be back to normal. Uh, there are more checks and we are putting more security. Protocols in place. But till then, yes, this 

Sudipto: DDOS attack, right? I was checking with some people and an attack of this scale requires a lot of organizing.

Yeah. Are you guys being singled out 

Abhinandan: for it? I don't know. We, uh, have 

Sudipto: a lot of 

Abhinandan: money also. I heard it's not cheap. Yeah. If you just do it like one day or half a day, then it's not that expensive, but because we've been facing it for two weeks continuously, yeah. Chances are there's some significant organized.

So we are taking whatever steps are necessary. So that's the reason these [00:04:00] fixes are happening, but I do hope you will appreciate isi bahane hafta and charsha are free this week yet again for the third week. Uh, we'll pull them behind the paywall when everything is absolutely running fine, but do continue to subscribe and pay to keep news free.

In fact, pick up the joint subscription of the news minute and the news laundry. You will see all the products, all the stories, all the wonderful podcasts, et cetera, and soon you will also see. Young Sudipto's podcast. Young, come on. You're in the company of oldies. I mean, you see, you see your two co panelists.

Raman: You're sitting with a 

Sudipto: young person. Okay.

Abhinandan: Raman sir and I are on the same team. And, and, and also here's a teaser. This podcast was done because lots of our subscribers had said that rather than just discuss the Israel Palestine issue on Hafta, we should get area experts. So we got to some of the finest experts from around the world [00:05:00] and the let's talk about Israel Palestine is finally out.

Here's a teaser. The 

Sudipto: weapon that is utilized on behalf 

Abhinandan: of Israelis, any criticism of Israel is considered anti Semitic. The badge of anti Semitism is the 

Sudipto: kiss of death. Netanyahu on 

Abhinandan: record has said that there won't be a Palestinian state on my watch. The majority of Israelis want to replace him, but not in the middle of the war.

They don't expect too much from those who might replace him. The change will not be dramatic when it comes to the Palestinian question.

The notion you just mentioned that the people without the land came to a land without people was the biggest lie of Zionism because it was a people without the land who came to a land with a people. Welcome to let's talk about Israel and Palestine.[00:06:00] 

So check that out. It's behind the paywall only for subscribers. Uh, but now let's get into the headlines and then we have lots of other announcements which I can make later. Jayashree, 

Jayashree: all yours. Yes, so here are the headlines for the week. So the Rajya Sabha polls took place in three states and there was controversy in all three with allegations of cross voting.

So in Karnataka, the Congress won three seats, the BJP won one. In Himachal, the BJP shockingly emerged victorious in the election for a single vacant Rajya Sabha seat. And please remember the Congress is in power in Himachal with 40 MLAs in the 68 member assembly. In UP, the Samajwadi party took a hit after at least seven of its MLAs cross voted in favor of the BJP.

This meant the defeat of one of the SOP, of the SP's candidates. So yes, we can discuss this in detail. Also this week, the Supreme Court temporarily restrained Ramdev's company, Patanjali Ayurveda, from advertising any of its products meant to address specific diseases and disorders, [00:07:00] as listed in the Drug and Magic Remedies Act.

Abhinandan: I see people have just started calling him Ramdev. 

Jayashree: It's like how, if you want to show that you're not being respectful, you won't call him Yogi Adityanath. You'll be like, his name is Adityanath. Now even 

Abhinandan: I won't use his title. 

Raman: No, in fact, uh, he lost his title because he got into so many businesses. Baba, in fact, fat

under the Larry, he used to make jokes of this fat, 

Sudipto: but in the submission to the Supreme Court, his lawyer s know some Sangi, his name is. Mm-Hmm. . He calls him, uh, he's still a

Abhinandan: but, but today, Indian Express has launched its annual. You know, supplement of the hundred most powerful people in the country. Above hundred. So in that, one of the top five most powerful people in the country. It's Ramdev, not Baba Ramdev. Even they've dropped the Baba. 

Jayashree: But you know, speaking of titles, there was this kindness festival that happened in Chennai.

It was [00:08:00] very, it was organized by a bunch of socialites. It was called the International Kindness Festival with lots of sessions and stuff. So one of their speakers was S. Gurumurthy and the other speaker was Abhijit Ayurmitra, who was talking about kindness in the world. Are you serious? As they introduced him, he was introduced as stand up comedian, Abhijith Iyer Mithra.

Sudipto: And something else, what, a political analyst? No, not a political analyst, something else. 

Abhinandan: Some people also describe him as a political analyst. He's a defense analyst. Defense analyst. That was an interesting one. Yeah, exactly. Abhijith 

Sudipto: Iyer 

Abhinandan: Mithra. Kindness. But he's shed 

Jayashree: defense for stand up comedy, 

Abhinandan: allegedly.

I'll be in Chennai, by the way, uh, next week, Jayshree. So, like, why? I won't come fine. It's fine. I won't. 

Jayashree: No, no. Obviously my first reaction is excitement. 

Abhinandan: I have to corrupt the minds of IIT Madras children. I'm speaking there. 

Jayashree: I'll come attend. I'm very close to it. Great. Excellent. Anyway, and other headlines.

Uh, Trinamool Congress leader Sheikh Shah Jahan, against whom multiple allegations of land grab and [00:09:00] sexual assault have been made, was finally arrested last night by the West 

Abhinandan: Bengal police. Yes, and BJP has claimed credit is done because of the pressure they built with their protests, which may be true, I think.

A 

Jayashree: report by a research group called India Hate Lab, uh, documented 668 instances of anti Muslim hate speech in India last year, 498 or 75 percent took place in BJP governed states. 

Abhinandan: Yep. I'm not surprised. In fact, if we were to break it down, I want to see how many people affiliated with the Sangh Parivar were there in each of these, you know, uh, someone sent me a video of this entire group of people in Chhattisgarh taking a, an oath that we shall not.

Sell or buy things from Muslims, et cetera. Hmm.[00:10:00] 

So is this real or is it happening in place? Is it happening in this place? Whatever. In , I said it's happening in many places in the country. It's not just one. 

Sudipto: It's happening 

Raman: in Delhi. Delhi 

Sudipto: and CR. It happened in 

Raman: Gurgaon, I think the other day, uh, I, I had spoken about it in my, there's a biodiversity park near my place.

So I went for a walk in the morning and, uh, it was soon after some state where the BJP had won. So a hundred, 200 people, RSS apparently, but their wives also, the entire family get together and there they were, uh, 

Abhinandan: swearing on this. Best way to spend time with family. 

Jayashree: Right. So, um, the CBI has summoned, has summoned Akhilesh Yadav for questioning in connection with an illegal sand mining case from 2019.

Which he has skipped. He is one amongst many former CMs and opposition leaders being summoned as we speak. On Saturday, the government has [00:11:00] released the Household Consumption Expenditure Survey of 2022 23. This is after more than a decade. It's conducted every five years and the last results in 2017 18 were junked because the government had quality issues with the data.

So according to the survey, an Indian family on average monthly spends 6, 500 in urban area, 3, Yeah. So average monthly consumption expenditure has risen by 2. 5 

Abhinandan: times. And only 5 percent of the country is poor. They have 

Sudipto: changed 

Raman: the methodology, which they didn't speak about. In fact, the variables are not even comparable.

You can't compare them, you know, because the methodology was different in 2011, 

Abhinandan: 2012. So I just think it's, I mean, of course, many people ask this question that if only 5 percent of the country is poor, why 80 crore being given free rations? Yeah. Of course. It doesn't make sense then. 

Jayashree: Yeah. But the bottom line of this is that the spending gap between the richest and poorest households is about 10 times.

In [00:12:00] Manipur, police personnel across the valley districts laid down arms this week to protest against the abduction of an additional superintendent of police by members of a radical mighty outfit. 

Abhinandan: That was really disturbing. Yeah. Imagine there's just Police laying down its arms. No, the 

Sudipto: thing 

Raman: is only 18 percent of the arms have been recovered, you know, after the loot.

So imagine, I mean, 18 percent means 82 are out with these, uh, you know, maithi or cookies, whatever. 

Jayashree: Yeah. Right. Then in Tamil Nadu, the DMK has finalized its Lok Sabha polls, seat sharing with the left parties. The CPI and CPIM will get two seats each. Modi meanwhile was in Tirunelveli. He said the time has come to drive away the DMK.

And that the center's inability to complete projects is only due to the DMK's non 

Abhinandan: cooperation. So what's your take on this? 

Jayashree: So I have some fun, I mean, slightly gossipy things about the Tamil Nadu and the BJP, which is all very like, so one JP Nadda was in, uh, he came to Chennai like a couple of weeks ago and was very fruitless.

[00:13:00] So they said he was staying at this fancy hotel and they said he's devoting the entire evening to meeting with all the parties who want to ally with him. And he's coming ahead of Modi's visit to Tirunelveli because he's going to stitch the alliance. Then no one came, no parties arrived. So then finally, Annamalai issued the statement saying, you know, actually, JP Nadol was too busy to meet people, so he couldn't.

Then they took him to make a speech somewhere and he was driving through this very public market. I think in mint area. And then he complained and complained later. And he said, Oh, it's like the emergency in Chennai. The DMK is imposing emergency. All the shops were shut, but it was a Sunday. So the shops were obviously shut.

So the entire thing was very comical. Then the state BJP organized this press conference in Coimbatore and they invited all the media. They said, leaders from major parties are going to be joining the BJP in your presence. So please come. This was the start of 5. 30 by 6. 30, nobody had come. So then they quietly said, we are postponing for unforeseen reasons and cancel the entire 

Abhinandan: thing.

But 

Sudipto: what about the, uh, DMK led alliance? [00:14:00] Uh,

Jayashree: DMK is now, uh, I think they had one chat with the Congress a couple of days ago. So the Congress has asked for some 12 seats. I think the DMK has offered nine. So There is, but the Congress is not happy, but, 

Sudipto: and the four seats to the 

Jayashree: left, maybe 12 to the Congress, the rest, I'm not sure. It's only what, 38, 39 

Sudipto: seats.

Is Raja's name doing the rounds again? 

Jayashree: Yeah, he's, but also this BJP alliance thing. Mean, the thing is that I feel live in small parties know the B BJ P will take them nowhere, right? So currently the only people who really want to pa to partner are the OPS sled. A DMK. Ah. Because OPS has nowhere where to go, and that's superstars Party 

Abhinandan: VI 

Jayashree: just is not contesting.

This you contest the next, next one. Oh, I see. And Kamal Haasan, the DMK has said, uh, the Congress can maybe put up Kamal Haasan as one of their candidates, but Kamal Haasan has not agreed so far to this 

Abhinandan: proposition. So interesting, but at least it's happening. How quickly, you know, [00:15:00] everything's falling into place in spite of the media trying its best to say, Oh, it's not working out and insult to Congress, insult to this, but yeah, let's go ahead with the rest of the headlines.

Sudipto: And while we're at it quickly also, uh, Kerala. There is no truck. No. So 

Abhinandan: it is the left. Yeah. Yeah. But 

Jayashree: no, but there's all that controversy, you know, about Annie, uh, Annie Raja and Kerala because Rahul Gandhi is standing from Wayanad. They put up Annie Raja from also from Wayanad. And so she is going to be terribly competitive for.

So 

Sudipto: I heard that it, uh, okay. There was a toss up between D Raja competing once more from, uh, Tamil Nadu. Uh, but then they, they went in favor of Annie Raja. In Kerala. 

Abhinandan: Yeah, that's going to be interesting. I don't know which Congress leader was it who had tweeted that the fact that, uh, um, you know, the communists announced their candidate from Wayanad proves that they're actually BJP's B team, Manikam.

Oh my God, this is next level. BJP's B 

Sudipto: team. No, but both the parties, I was, I [00:16:00] was preparing for that show. No, what's your resume? I was trying to interview Mr. Raja and Yachuri. You know, so the CPI is, uh, has an entire section on why it was wrong for, uh, Rahul to stand from Wayanad. And if he's really one of those people who's going to take on a communal party, do it where communalism is Uh, peaking, do it from a place where you, it 

Abhinandan: makes a difference.

That's a very good point. It's a good point. I can't disagree with that. 

Jayashree: Yes. So in Delhi, the DDA on Wednesday demolished the house of one of the Uttarkashi tunnel rescuers, Vakil Hasan, according to authorities, they conducted the demolition drive to remove encroachments 

Abhinandan: from land acquired in a village.

It's shocking. So we remember that there was this much publicized, every politician extracted their 10 minutes of fame after these miners who were trapped for so long. I don't know if any follow up story has happened on, uh, who were those guys, you know, the agency that was responsible for that have has actually been taken against him, any arrests been made, et cetera.

The people who rescued it, [00:17:00] this guy's one of those. And the left hand governor of Delhi today has said that he will be rehabilitated and how it's been given. Maybe we should keep a track of that as and when it was. 

Raman: And they were not, they were not given any. Good money. You know, when they rescued this 44 trapped minors, and we had done one video with all of them introducing 12 or 13 of them.

The link 

Abhinandan: is in the show notes below. Yeah. And 

Jayashree: also, I mean, the thing is that Okay, they're giving him a house and all now, but they didn't give him any notice is what he says before they just 

Raman: No, not just the notice and his, his was the, his claim is that his was the only house which was picked up for demolition.

The rest of the colony is standing there. This happened in which city? So how can you say 

Sudipto: Delhi, Delhi. Is it part of your forest department? It's in Khajuri Khas. Forest department is doing some clearances, no? No, this is DDA. I saw a bunch of 

Abhinandan: stories, no, okay. Yes, then 

Jayashree: in, I think what is the most important Headline I will read today.

The government has suspended the state's principal chief conservator of forests. [00:18:00] This is over the row surrounding the names Akbar and Sita that were given to two lines. 

Raman: A hilarious, uh, anchor by my old, uh, colleague and friend, Jay Mazumdar in Indian Express, where he is 1000 word article where he has given names of different, uh, of the animals in the past since 1970.

So there are so many such names, you know, Muslim animals staying with the 

Sudipto: Hindu 

Abhinandan: animal. Not anymore. It's just, I like it. A Pakistani journalist had tweeted because there was a case of this one lady who was wearing a salwar kameez with stuff written in Arabic. And when he saw it, it was major news. She was attacked by a mob and was rescued by a policewoman who has been given a a special commendation and a promotion.

She was rescued by her because, you know, they would have lynched her that, Oh, she's wearing, uh, you know, Quran verses as a outfit, et cetera. [00:19:00] So the police actually protected her, which is a lot more, which is way more than we said for the police here when they have to protect someone from the lynch mob.

And, um, Then they had a video of these Islamic scholars and clerics going over the kurta to see if there's any blasphemy or not. Do any of these Arabic, you know, whatever, alphabets or words denote anything from the Qur'an? And they said, no, this is not from the Qur'an, it's general Arabic. So, so this was said.

People are landing on the moon and this is Pakistan. This is what our resources and our police and our law enforcement. I was like, dude, actually, we are not very far from you. We are doing both. We also send it on the moon, but we are also doing this. I mean, you think about it. Yeah, it is you. And you see the BJP ads, the Modi ads, you know, People used to chant.[00:20:00] 

First we used to ask for proofs, use to make fun of religion, use to raise slogans against our country, and now, the public is turning us into a spectacle. As long 

Sudipto: as there is Modi, our flag will not be 

Abhinandan: held in this country. So come on, let's go. To keep the people who think religion and country is a joke in their minds, that's why Modi 

Sudipto: is 

Abhinandan: important.

I mean, he says, I love democracy, the bloody BJP election ads are saying freedom of speech is a bad thing. It is 

Raman: bizarre. No, in this particular case, the judiciary, I mean, even the judge was just laughing it off. He was quite sarcastic. I mean. [00:21:00] It's a beautiful story in live law. We are, you know, uh, verbatim produced, you know, the, the argument that happened in the court.

So despite, uh, since it did not work in the, it did not work in the court, the VHP petition. Now the government is suspending somebody in Why do you name the bureaucratic, uh, height of it? 

Abhinandan: Shocking. 

Jayashree: Anyway. Yep. So then in Uttar Pradesh, the government announced that the police constable recruitment exam that was held, uh, last week stands canceled.

This is after hundreds of candidates held demonstrations saying the question 

Abhinandan: paper was leaked. Congress has taken credit for this. Yes, the Congress 

Jayashree: slammed the BJP over the paper leak and has now also demanded a CBI 

inquiry. 

Raman: And that has become one of the rallying points for the coming election. 

Jayashree: And finally, in Washington, D.

C., a U. S. airman named Aaron Bushnell died after setting himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy while shouting free Palestine. He said this was an extreme act of protest and he would no longer be complicit in genocide. 

Abhinandan: Yeah, [00:22:00] very disturbing video. And here's where you can see Media's manufacturing consent or manufacturing, whatever, had some, I mean, I saw the video.

It is very disturbing. And I mean, I, I'm always on the fence of whether such videos should be put out or should not be put out because we, we had this discussion when Time Magazine had the cover of those kids who were gassed to death. And I think Syria it was, I'm not, I don't recall, uh, but had something so horrific and grotesque happened, uh, which was not with the politics of which weren't what this one was.

You know, CNN, everyone would have carried it, but this shows how the same thing done by. Someone else is ignored by the media, which is what manufacturing consent is all about. So I think it's 

Jayashree: an interesting, the New York times headline, I think was man dies after setting himself outside on fire outside [00:23:00] embassy police say, so just as sort of conflict and time magazine, which I thought was even worse.

Time magazine's entire story on the self immolation said, um, it quoted the defense department as saying, but you know, service members on duty are not allowed to. participate in political activity. In fact, they shouldn't even be wearing their uniform while they participate. And that isn't the point, right?

I mean, it's not that you're trying to buy a military coat posthumously. 

Abhinandan: So I think, so, and the one headline, which we haven't featured here, but it's been featured on pretty much every legacy media is Ananthambani is taking very good care of elephants in some place. So whether it is headlines today, economic times, network 18 channels.

Anantham Bani is everywhere telling us how elephants are lovely. So but we don't have that headline, I guess, because, you know, we don't take ads from Reliance. I don't know what the reason is. Maybe we don't have animal lovers in our midst. But yeah. I 

Raman: [00:24:00] think, but here, I think in this particular case. Uh, maybe this has been released, you know, at a time, there are two reasons.

One is, is marriage. Uh, and second is there lots of people are trying to, you know, um, there were reports in the past that these people have illegally made this zoo. And in fact, I got this story about a year ago. And I was also a little, uh, you know, curious about it, curious about it by not, I mean, let me just check.

So, and I checked it with the, when I saw the, uh, this thing, uh, you know, the, the, the arraignments that they have made, these bonded elephants, absolutely fabulous. I, I, I was given 

Sudipto: that 3d, I have no 

Abhinandan: doubt about it, but I'm just, it's, it's not news. It's, I mean, it's, it's the, they're feeding a hundred people.

He's, I mean, every channel to carry this young boy saying how I love elephants. There are lots of people doing very, someone we know, distributes blankets [00:25:00] every winter to people in Delhi, night after night. I have yet to see one channel cover him. What I'm saying is, it is a, it is an idiot story which is being done by every, the channels did not have the time to send a reporter to Manipur, are doing half an hour specials on Ananthambani and Elephants?

Seriously? But 

Jayashree: that is because the animal, so it's, this is that one that, uh, whatever that Reliance Foundation has set up. So they invited all these journalists from all these channels to come for a junket. And their stories were supposed to be released around the same time and everyone has done it. I think only a couple bothered putting the disclaimer at the bottom saying that we were here at the 

Abhinandan: invitation.

Not just that, troll accounts. Who tweet nothing sensible in their lives, suddenly saying, what wonderful wonderful things he's doing. I mean, you know, the usual eminent intellectual type who all their job is just troll every day. They have nothing sensible to say on Twitter. They're all, this is lovely.

This is all I'm like, 

Raman: no, it's fine. This was to counter that criticism. [00:26:00] Uh, this is coming out a, but the real story behind this, where the senior officer told me that, uh, the. Whatever, you know, guru, they follow, uh, the Ambani's. So he had told that if you take care of wounded elephants, so it will, it will help your, your family.

Kalyan hoga family ka. 

Abhinandan: Abhi kalyan nahi hoga. How much kalyan nahi hoga? No, but 

Sudipto: he is 

Raman: very, uh, He 

Sudipto: is very religious. Toh 

Abhinandan: isi liye itne gareebi mein the. They were not taking care of animals. That's why they were so poor. Gareebi 

Sudipto: is not 

Raman: the only reason. Maybe some other thing. 

Sudipto: Psychological. Buddha said, Dukha is.

This is everyone experiences Abhinandan. Don't smirk at other people's Dukkha. So that's no, 

Raman: no, but this has come out from a very reliable person 

Sudipto: who is handling all 

Raman: the elephants of this country. I mean, in the [00:27:00] ministry, uh, you know, so I, I, he's a Good friend 

Sudipto: of mine. So, you know, it amazes me that people who do these kinds of things who've made like a fortress of money around themselves, right?

For them, public perception matters. I imagine myself being that that that powerful or that rich and why wouldn't give a damn about this? You know, some Abhinandan is telling me, telling something about my elephants to hell with you, you know, but It only goes to show that public perception matters, what, what the public thinks about the vastile matters because the vastile 

Abhinandan: might be breached one day.

Vanity is still our main instinct. See 

Jayashree: the best example of that is the Moorzis who refuse to let us not know anything about their lives. I think the most recent press release was So I'm with the experiencing menopause explains to husband that she has mood swings and it's like why did you paid someone to write out the press release for this and then send 

Sudipto: it to journal and something about poverty.

There's always something to pick it up. Like, no, but there's always also something to do always with their, um, um, what do you call it? Their 

Abhinandan: [00:28:00] simplicity. 

Jayashree: She hasn't bought a sari in 50 

Sudipto: years. It's like the 

Abhinandan: money makes them feel guilty. You think? I don't, I think it 

Jayashree: makes them, no, but they commissioned Ra de, I mean, she's a pretty legit senior sort of writer and they commissioned her to write an entire book on the glorious Love story.

It the 

Abhinandan: love story. But I just astonishing. But my comment on the media that this is not a story, it is not a news story. Mm-Hmm. . This sun likes elephants and takes care of it. It is at best. A page three, page eight, single column. It's a feature. It is not a story. It is not bloody prime time on every channel, man.

It is. And that is what I mean about public interest journalism. This is not public interest journalism. This is. Anant Interest Journalism, it is to show how wonderful the boy is and he may be wonderful. I mean, I don't know, but how is it relevant with all these resources that you cannot send a camera crew to Manipur or you cannot send the camera, but you have half an hour shows on this dude.

I mean, come 

Sudipto: on. It is public [00:29:00] interest. Public interest. Because the thing is, I don't know, you know, that's where I suppose the job of the media is to cultivate. Because if you put it, millions of views are getting it. You know, so you, you don't provide them what you Yeah, but 

Abhinandan: that is a, that is a cop out argument.

Millions of views Reality shows get the most views in the world. That is why journalism has become a reality show. But that is not what journalism is, right? Then make a reality show. What I'm saying is The, the purpose of this whole thing that people watch, therefore they do is not, it's not a journalistic argument.

Sudipto: Oh, it's not. No, no. I'm just saying that there is this, the people have been cultivated to watch this kind of stuff. 

Jayashree: Isn't the greater argument the money that they're just getting vast quantities of 

Abhinandan: money to do this? News platforms have, you know, check out Malaika Arora's pics from a Goa holiday. Of course you get clicks, but should that be?

You know, in the homepage of a news website, it shouldn't. I mean, it's no, absolutely. So, uh, I have two more announcements and then we shall get right into the discussion and we'll [00:30:00] start off with the Rajsebha election and what they tell us about our politics. Uh, we have a new election fund in partnership with the news minute.

And as you know, we will be covering the elections in an extremely robust and comprehensive way. So the link is in the show notes below, but you can also go on to the news laundry website or the news minute website. Uh, we will be doing this coverage together. There will be 15 reporters, producers, and editors from News Laundry and the News Minute on the ground, including Dhanya, Atul, Manisha, Sudipto, and your contributions will power their work, how much time they can spend on the ground.

and what conditions they live in depend on how much funds you can create. 

Sudipto: This time I want a car at least. I'm not going by bus anymore for reporting. Okay. You, that 

Abhinandan: car, please. Yeah. They will 

Sudipto: not take you. You 

Abhinandan: will have a full day vehicle. 

Sudipto: Only if the readers support them. Readers will support 

Abhinandan: newslaundry.

com or you can go to newsminute. com or just click [00:31:00] on the show notes below. For those who are on our IOS, we have the election fund contribution option on the app too, but if you can contribute via website, uh, because then we get more money. So please, you can do that. Uh, so go through the browser, but do contribute.

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So that's the only journalism you'll see. I hope we can show you public interest journalism by sending all these people. Now let's start. So Himachal Pradesh, Rajya Sabha election, Karnataka. That is your state and UP. Let's start with your state. Two BJP guys cross footed there. That, that has to be a record, right?

I don't think anyone's been able to pull that off. [00:32:00] So guys, yeah, they cross. So what is the future of these two gentlemen? And can you tell us something about them? The question 

Sudipto: is how, how long does someone wait in a bus stop for the bus to come? Like now, now then this bus stop, no, then there will be, that's coming.

Yeah, they've got onto this bus, and they've landed at this bus stop, then on the next bus. So the thing is, I know this is like a feature across the country, but in Karnataka among us, we talk about how ideologically actually there's not much separating the average BJP guy from a average from the average JDS guy from the average congress guy.

And, uh, the, the BJP's main leaders, starting with Yadurappa and all of these people have a fairly, they're benign Hindutva people, huh? They're not like a feral, frothing isko kato kind of people. There are some elements like that in the BJP in, in, in Karnataka, of course, you know, but, uh, the problem is for us, actually, when we observe politics is that, uh, a Kumaraswamy, a Yadurappa and a Siddharama are actually great friends.

[00:33:00] You know, they, they have a good understanding ideologically with them, so we don't have that polar kind of fight. Which I suppose results sometimes in these kind of things, right? Which is you can't pick and choose between a party, wherever you reach, you have to do the same. Uh, Karnataka parties is a little 

Abhinandan: like that, I would say.

So the three Congress MPs who went to the Rajya Sabha, Ajay Makan, Nasir Hussain and G. C. Chandrashekhar. Uh, the BJP MLA, uh, S. T. Somashekhar voted for Ajay Makan. And, uh, Arabail, Shivaram, Hebbar abstained from voting. One 

Jayashree: BJP chap also won, no? 

Abhinandan: Yeah, one BJP chap also won, correct. So, uh, you know, but coming to your point and I'd, you know, want to take it to, uh, Raj, Jayshree after that.

I don't think it's so much about ideologically they're different. Ideologically they can be completely different. For example, ideologically, Congress, I mean, what all that, the, the rhetoric of, uh, what's his name? Uh, Apna, Sindhya. It's completely different from what rhetoric he [00:34:00] is spouting now. Um, or someone like, let's say, when this whole rumor was there of.

Chindwada, Kamal Nath, you know, going from here to there, or a BSP MP who just designed and switched. Three of them. I think generally we as a people are not so committed to ideology. We, because of the, how hierarchies have been, and I keep hopping back to the same thing, how they have just been drilled into us.

If this is our Guru, and he says cut your thumb, Eklavya will cut off his thumb. Eklavya should have said, forget my thumb, here's my middle finger. That should have been Eklavya's. But, and we have other than a, um, you know, uh, we have a station in Delhi named after Guru Dronacharya. I'm sure there are wonderful things about him, but the absolute, that if this guy says, you know, day, day, if this guy says night, that is the mindset that [00:35:00] makes it so easy for people to flip.

I don't think there is any, I, like, We've done, we did that whole series in Kerala, people join from the communists to the RSS. It's not like a, they've changed shade. They have flipped, but their entire constituency or their entire gang will flip with them. Because if we say, sir ne ye bola ye kar kar do.

Ideology to, so I, I think, which is why in our context, leaders are more important. Leaders determine our ideology. You don't have any. Which is why 

Sudipto: I feel like you do that, that the common discourse that we are all part of, which is the discourse that involves crying over the rise of Hindutva. Are a DK values, you know, ter mega, you know, there is this entire thing and uh, that is not, I feel the case, you know, it's just that they're a better managed electoral machine.

Uh, they win elections because of that. It's not because of some great ideological influence. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. India, that idea of India is lost [00:36:00] I idea of India as well, one or lost. There's a constituency of, I suppose there are three basic fundamental pillars in Indian. politics, right? You have the Hindu right, you have the Hindu left, and then you, whatever is left, which is what the people who live outside the village.

You have an anti caste kind of politics in every part from Kargil to Northeast to everywhere. I've seen this out of the village kind of politics, even among the Manipuri people, for example, the Maithai. There is a bunch of people who are, yes, we are also Maithai, we are also chauvinist in some way, but we are not part of that Maithai identity because we live outside the village.

So these three fundamental pillars and beyond that, ideology is just top dressing. Which means that, uh, you know, people go from here to there, there to here and all that, that it really doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. You know, and, uh, better managed election next time may result in some other so called secular or communist party winning and all of that, so.

No, absolutely, I think. The provocation is, we should be so worried about Hindutva then. No, of course you should 

Abhinandan: be violent purely because you can make people do a lot by leadership and the influence that you [00:37:00] have over them through media. You have, because it is leaders who will, will determine Bapu made this entire country embrace an idea, which now we say nonviolence, nonviolence at that time, the concept was a bizarre concept.

Yeah. You know, but he made a country follow him on that. This is what I believe. Not just the country, the world follows. Yeah. So, so, I mean, of course one has to be worried. It is like, it is like the same country that was, that voted the Nazis in full flow in two decades was so, you know, horrifically guilty about it.

Are we saying that suddenly the species changed, the nature changed? Leadership matters. You have to be worried about that. You, Jayashree, what is your view on, first of all, the, the flip. And also I just like to point out in, uh, Himachal Pradesh, the Congress did a BJP. Singh we lost through, how did they, they drew lots because it was a tie.

Jayashree: Yeah. So see, the thing is, it doesn't matter. The ideally doesn't matter, [00:38:00] especially for these sort of politicians. So like you were saying Himachal Pradesh. So I think the Congress, what the Congress thought Abhishek Mani Singh, we will sort of sail through because then we have a majority data and all the BJP had nominated them form as former Congress guy.

as their candidate and the BJP has only 25 MLAs but they got 35, 34 votes. Right. And so they tied with the Congress. They did one draw of lots. The BJP guy won. And then now the Congress is saying now some of its MLAs have been spirited away to a resort in Haryana. Right. So I think that really sort of encapsulates the state of.

politics in India, which is there is a chapter in our election history, which will be devoted to MLAs being taken to resorts because ideally ideology does not matter at all. Like I think the thing that really matters is utter sort of ruthlessness and especially when the BJP unless if you're like an idiot, you know, there is inducement or compulsion and the BJP does wheel this out very regularly and they have money and they have power.

They've set their mind to it. They can do it. So, in maybe the case like Tamil Nadu, Kerala, they're a little bit far behind from having this power, [00:39:00] but in others, they do. They have influence. It's just a sort of expensive nudge. So to say anything of this about ideology means that it's not, it's just relentless.

They're not conceding one quarter. And I mean, yes, we should not hope for other parties to pick up dirty tricks, but other parties need to learn how to be relentless. And they're not, you have to marshal your MLAs, you have to manage your flow, you have to be on top of it, right? I mean, you have to lock away your MLAs.

You should first lock your MLAs in a resort before the BJP can take them away. 

Abhinandan: And in a state where you have. No, no, but, uh, 

Sudipto: other parties also like this entire thing of, this is not some BJP invention, no? I mean, uh, No, no, 

Abhinandan: not at all. It's just that 

Sudipto: BJP is doing it well now. Yeah, because, see, this, uh, recently only, there was this, last week only, hafta, na, iss hafte mein, there was a huge fight between Dhruv Rathee and Dilip Mandal.

Okay? Uh, Dhruv Rathee said ki, uh, dictatorship aagaya India mein. And Dilip Mandal just Took off on him saying that. Yeah, dictatorship. He pulled out like in Nazi Mara's time in a, in a matter of a day or two, some 15 governments were dis, I [00:40:00] mean, some seven governments were dismissed, . So this is, uh, rah rhetoric and rah fact oil and water.

You know where you see that. But, but I think. 

Abhinandan: But see, okay, but again, that argument is again, 

Sudipto: one that I Kisne nahi kiya jo yeh log kar rahe hain? Inone wahi se seekha hua na. See, 

Abhinandan: then that's a nihilist argument. Then nothing matters about anything. Then, then, then we should not even be sitting here. Then nothing matters.

Everyone has done something horrible at some point or the other. It is like, it is like the BJP keeps saying, what about emergency? And, and that is a typical cop out argument. Cause, I mean, let's take that argument to its logical conclusion. Okay, so, they have done it. A, level matters. Is Hitler the only man who has murdered innocents?

No. Stalin did too. The man who defeated him only did the same. Forget that scale. You know, even Ashoka did, right? Ashoka also killed innocent people. Forget that. In the regime of [00:41:00] some of the most benign, look at Odisha. You know, innocents got killed there also. So is Hitler the same as Naveen Patnaik? You see this whole thing that as if these guys haven't done it, then nothing matters because there is no perfect organism or human being.

The point is context matters. If in 2024 our understanding of democracy is what the understanding of democracy was in 1975 or 77 during the emergency, then either the person making that argument has not evolved. Has not read anything after 75 or then nothing matters at any point. Then what is the cutoff point in my understanding that is not an intelligent argument.

That is a 12 year olds argument. And unfortunately, people like Mr Mondal, you know, the lip Mondal and all make these arguments purely to, um, you know, kind of gloss over today. Let's talk about 

Sudipto: today. No, but how can you talk about? Okay. So I, I get that, you know, how can you talk about today [00:42:00] without talking about how we got here?

That is the entire point. The thing is that we have the history of a party like the Congress. You have the history of how the communists ruled West Bengal, for example. How did they get those 32 years under their belt? Right? People who've lived in that regime know what it means. Back in the day, I have seen with my own eyes that in communist rule in Bengal, you couldn't go to the police station, you the party office.

Right? And these are things on which people have built. And the thing is, you lose your legitimacy to talk about these forces when you are part of. When you're complicit in these things in the past and we are not comparing, uh, Naveen Patnaik with Hitler. We are comparing, uh, yes, an Indira Gandhi with a Modi.

It's 20 years apart only, you know, 25 30 years 

Jayashree: apart. But also I think you have to take into context, okay, one, see, if you do make that argument, but then you also need to take into context that the party that is doing it now has the resources and the money that the parties before did not. And I do think all that does add up.

I think it's easy to shut down [00:43:00] an argument by saying, because it is a very undebatable X, which also did happen and you must obviously acknowledge it as something bad that did happen. But I can also still very confidently say, yes, but at the end of the day, I do think the VGP is maybe even more powerful than the Nehru era Congress, because Oh, sure.

Terms of resources and money. 

Abhinandan: But the point I'll make, I'll go even one step beyond this. I don't have to acknowledge it. I am talking about the time I'm living in right now as a thinking adult. I think Mr. Modi's dictatorship is a huge danger to me. Unless I have a time machine and I'm traveling back in time and I want to have a good time in the seventies.

I don't give a fuck what happened then. But who had a good time is a question. But no, that is not a question in the context of what I'm saying. If I have commentary that today's politics is this. I think we should be alarmed and the person says, no, we shouldn't cause it happened in 77 then go back to 77 I want to live today and I want to fight this and if you're saying I should, I haven't, I should not talk about this without talking about [00:44:00] that.

I don't think that is a argument that is taking you anywhere. Then it is just a question of, I want, I want to just talk. It is not leading us. 

Jayashree: No, no, it's not 

Sudipto: a matter of one opinion. If you are saying today, suddenly I will say, I will not look at anything in the past today. I want to know what's happening today.

Give me a solution for today. The solution for today is your history. If you don't know your history, then where are you going? 

Abhinandan: But you can know your history, but you don't have to discuss it on the same thing. If I make a video about this is the political situation right now, and I think it's alarming and someone's, and there may be very good counters to that.

But if someone's counter to that is, so what it's happened in the past, you give me one argument in the whole world where I cannot debunk that argument with, but this has happened before. My argument 

Sudipto: is not that. So what it has happened in the past? No, no. Then I stand corrected. I am saying that when you are saying that this is happening today, it is important to hold people responsible for what is happening today.

No, but that, and I [00:45:00] feel that in the case of the BJP is rise, I do feel that the quality of our secularism has been. Far. I mean the, you know, the whole, that's true exercise of like, you have a dravidian party, you have a communist party, you know, these are parties which are not true to their own ideologies, and that is why you may say that you make fun of the fact that this rally, nobody turned up in Tam for the entire thing, anything.

But I mark my words okay. That they, they not only exist over there, but they're growing. I, you know, if you go to Kaari today. Right in the same Tamil Nadu, right? Look at the condition of Kanyakumari. Look at the condition of the Dravidian parties over there. See how powerful the right wing forces are over there.

You go to Kasargod and Kannur. Kannur is supposed to be the headquarter of the Communist Party. In Kannur itself, you look at the kind of damage that the right can create. Where did the space for the right emerge? It emerged because of these parties. That's the only point I'm making. I 

Jayashree: don't disagree with you.

And look, yes, it is important to remember things like what Karunanidhi allied with the BJP in the 90s, 99, 98. But I think See, but when, when do you bring it [00:46:00] up in an argument when you're having it? I think it only works if it's a good faith argument where it is an interaction where you are discussing it with an outcome, but I feel that more and more it is used as like the conversation you mentioned, like a Twitter argument where people are just sort of bringing up things to sort of counter a point, but not to actually prove a point.

So I would say that 

Raman: is the, your idea is sounding like this. I mean, if Indira Gandhi did it in the past, so Modi is doing it. So this is how 

Sudipto: your idea is. No, no, no, no, no, no. Then let me correct myself. I am not saying Indira Gandhi did it. So this person is doing it. That would be a bad faith argument. My thing is that I, Come from the point of view of the oppressed.

Okay, who is the king has really has mattered very little because everything has been actually in the in the Hindutva only, right, whether it's Indira Gandhi, or it is a communist in the end of the day, they have not been able to extract themselves from their own identity, which is Hindi, which is Hindu.

Which is upper cast, which is dominant cast. So therefore when you say that [00:47:00] we have to, you know that, that this is not in good faith. Okay? This is coming from a secular point of view only. I'm not saying that she did. So he also is doing, that's not where I'm coming from. I'm saying that you brought this upon ourselves.

Uh, you are rather, you brought this on us. That is fine. You brought this on us. That's all I'm saying. So, so, and that's what this man is also saying, you know, which is that suddenly I think so you, it's hitting 

Abhinandan: you. No, but you can, you can say that, but to say that to debunk a video, which I have also seen, and I think it is a very solid video, very solid video.

What is the purpose of that? If your purpose of the argument is to debunk that video, then I'm sorry, that argument has no weight in my view. The most amazing, educated person makes a video, I can guarantee you with 100 percent certainty, I will poke holes in his video saying, but you have not said, Why did this happen evolutionary biology?

Why is it that the white man got this and why did they invent gunpowder or not? I can punch a hole in anything. 

Sudipto: But that's tautology. I mean, you're giving an example of [00:48:00] something random. We're talking about something actual over here. We're talking about a BJP leader who is being called a dictator and a person saying that, Hey man, take a step back.

Look at where, how we got here, who is contributed to the, to the, to the, to the emergence of this dictator. I don't think that's quite the same thing. I think that, and I, and I do feel that Dilip Mandal, see, the reason I say this is Dilip Mandal, though he's not a Dalit himself, you know, he appropriates a lot of space in that area, uh, but, you know, the, the, the thing is that, uh, he's coming from an anti caste perspective, and from an anti caste perspective, all these ruling classes are villains, okay?

We don't give a rat's ass, okay, about anybody, tum sala, tum jo bhi ho, hamara khuni chusa tumne. Toh yeh point hai, aur yeh point koi, baara saal ke bachche ka nahi hai. 

Abhinandan: No, but I don't think it, that, it takes it anywhere. What I'm saying is that is a nihilist position. It does. That is a nihilist position that, that let everything burn to the ground because Because I've never been part 

Sudipto: of any palace.

I've never been part of any power circle. I've always been an [00:49:00] audience. I've always been watching your power games. So let everything burn. 

Abhinandan: Let the palace burn. Fair enough. What I'm saying is that argument can be made on any injustice, anything. In which case, one cannot raise one's voice on anything because that point Can be made by someone more marginalized than you about anything.

Raman: No, your palace will also be burned. And once Modi attacks you, I mean, you do a story and then he raids you and 

Sudipto: all. That's provided we lived in palaces. The entire point is that is provided we lived in palaces. That's the entire, this is a voice coming from the streets. From the streets, people are living over there.

For them, there is actually 

Abhinandan: no difference. So that's what I'm saying. Which is why I 

Sudipto: called it a nihilist argument. What you call nihilism has been the basis for all sorts of oppressed rebellions across time, okay? Like, for example, many times in this conversation only, we talked about the breaching of the Bastille.

Right? The French Revolution. It was like, we'll kill the guards. Also, we'll kill not just Mary an uh, Antoinette, right? Uh, when the BOLs Shaik revolution happened, oh, Russia. Russia, the Bolshevik revolution happened, right? There's a certain [00:50:00] amount of amount of nihilism, and when women say men, men will say, ah, all men are what?

Mm. This is a heist argument. The thing you have to identify is that people who are completely marginalized for outside the political discussion, we'll always have a ne nihilist view of politics because the pol, the politics doesn't include them. Hamara discussion in here. We are not part of this discussion.

Let it burn. Sure. So therefore, I'm saying, do not underestimate the, the revolutionary potential of that nihilism. It is, uh, it is an ism, which, whose time will come as the BOLs revolution has shown. And if it comes at that stage, it'll not be pretty, it'll be, it'll be pretty ugly Okay. To call it something to dismiss it.

Okay. Will be at our own peril because Modi, the dictator, let's call him the dictator, only has happened because of this dismissal of the concerns of the most marginalized Oh. So now. 

Abhinandan: There is a difference in the dismissal of the concept and the critique of an argument. If the point is that I have to accept this argument, no matter how poor I find its quality, because then that's dismissing it.

Then there is no agency for me to exercise my logical [00:51:00] understanding of saying, I accept this, I reject this. Then just because. of what is being said by who in this context, I have to accept everything. No, I don't. I will only filter what I think is sensible and what is not sensible. I will obviously push back against.

Now, coming to your point about revolution on the hafta many times. I have said a country like India, which has the wealth disparity does. It is a miracle. There hasn't been a revolution in the last hundred years. And I've said this many times. If I was standing on the streets and quote unquote, I've said exactly these words in the summer of Delhi or in the winter of Delhi and I saw a car with the comfort that they have and my child was starving to death in the street, I would have no hesitation slitting a throat.

I would not think for a minute. I understand that, but I will also say there is no chance in hell India will see a revolution. But the revolution already happened, no? No, no, you, you described a very specific type of revolution, right? Anti revolution, forget the bloody revolution. You said, you described a [00:52:00] very specific type of revolution and you very specifically said That is, I am saying, I will bet my life we will not see that in India because in India as a people and you can see throughout history, I can give the Bengal famine example, we were talking about a certain kind of politics upstairs before we came down right now.

About how leaders who are supposed to represent X now are representing Y in India, there is no chance it will happen because as a people, it is so easy to make us obey by just a few people in power and fight amongst each other. A revolution requires a certain amount of dismissal of, of, of, uh, hierarchy, and that is.

Just not happening here. Sorry, we've spent too much time talking. Jayshree, why don't you come in and then Ravan sir can come in and we can move on to 

Jayashree: On this? No, I mean, I think you both have derailed entirely, I forgot what the What am I I mean, if I had to say something right now, it would be that if we are still talking about Rajya Sabha.

Rajya 

Abhinandan: Sabha. In the print I said, by the way, it's not, 

Sudipto: he's [00:53:00] Mandal and I'm Mondol. Okay. So for the record, he's not Mondol. He's Mandal. He's 

Abhinandan: Mandal. And I'm Mondol. Both A's. No, no. 

Sudipto: I, I'm, mine is M O N. We have Bengali from a different extraction, Mandal 

Abhinandan: from the North Indian. But doesn't all Bengali names replace A 

Sudipto: with O?

Yes, but in this case, in the case of my surname, it comes from a different extraction. In the case of Dilip Mandal, it comes, it 

Abhinandan: has a different origin. Pronoins, is it Pronoins? 

Jayashree: Right? We are still talking about his. Piece, man, I completely forgot. Now it was there piece, uh, I don't think it's an example of nihilism.

I think, uh, the, that would be something completely different. So that's it. I'm done. And if we are going to try and go back to Karnataka, I will say that, uh, if we're talking about ban and the BJP being reckless and whatever, I would think that if I had to pick one guy in Karnataka who is. Perhaps working like the BJ p It could be Dmar, but Right.

I feel like he's one of those types who, you know, he's a little bit shameless. I he doesn't want the wheel and dealing 

Abhinandan: No, 

Sudipto: I wonder. Watch is a [00:54:00] deeply iCal man. Okay. Yeah. He, he read out some poetry or some dic something I remember in the context of referring to, he was very 

Abhinandan: unwell. Now, when the, they won, he was, uh, shaking or shivering.

Remember he was, 

Sudipto: some people are saying he was drunk. Some people say he was drunk. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that doesn't matter. But the way he referred to his wife and his daughter right. In this entire. No, I don't 

Abhinandan: know. I don't know this thing. 

Sudipto: Tell, tell. Ghar ki shobha, yeh wo, meri aurte bahane. Some, some, I, I, I, since I don't remember the exact words, I'll not, uh, hazard it, but a deeply radical man feudal, uh, his granite businesses and all that, you know, I wish we had the time and, uh, you know, I suppose the safety net to go into those investigations and all of that.

And I, somebody like him, him always makes me wonder, ki mein wo Congress mein kya And, uh, you know, it's supposed to be a party which is now at least trying to. Walk a better, uh, you know, path. So what's he doing over there? Uh, DK Shivakumar, but then there are others who will say, no, but the dictator has to be defeated.

Right? So we [00:55:00] need to have cut these corners. We need to have a DK Shivakumar. We need to have the DMK's thugs. We need to have the CPM people who are going and that's 

Jayashree: what he's taking them on at their game. I mean, they're playing all playing the same 

Abhinandan: game. That is something I think someone recently also quoted, um, yeah.

That politics or democracy or election is basically choosing the. So, but you're right, you, you have to cut those corners. You name me one political grouping in the world, any time in history, which was perfect. Even, you know, let's, let's take an example that is not part of our context, but you know, overseas.

Um, the defeating fascism by Churchill, a deeply racist man himself. By many Britons who I think are rational, reasonable, intelligent people think he's one of the greatest Britons of all time. But I think there was so many things, which is like context matters, which is news all about context, because if context doesn't matter, I think [00:56:00] you, if you give anyone unbridled power, it doesn't matter who he is, how normal or wonderful that society is fucked, which is why you have to have.

Counterbalances. Now, if you're saying the counterbalance has to be perfect, then we can keep waiting forever. But, if any party, I, why was I so against UPA? I mean, it's not like I was pro Modi and I've, I've said that again on Hafta. At that time, if I was given two choices, either Modi or UPA third term. At that time, I said, you, Modi, yeah.

You cannot give a party so corrupt a third term. No, but you're speaking But I'm the I didn't think Modi was wonderful or great. I mean, everyone knows what I thought of Modi. But if those are the truths, you're telling me someone should get 15 years? It doesn't matter who it is. They should It should keep churning because that is the only way we evolve.

No, I'm just saying 

Sudipto: that you're, you're reading it as a voter. As a voter, if you put a gun to my head, I know that I'm not voting for the dictator. Right? If that's the question, okay, I'm saying as a journalist, I reserve [00:57:00] my right to not hold anybody on a pedestal. I will criticize them. That's the nihilism of the profession.

That's where I'm coming from saying that these are people who are not beyond critiques, right? And as a voter, I will also make those pragmatic choices. 

Abhinandan: If I was responding to you, you said that, you know, in the political game, if one has to cut corners and replace X with Y, I said, but. In any political game, that's the only way power changes.

There is no perfect party that replaces a flawed party. You know what I'm saying? Like, even, uh, what do you call, uh, this whole Biden Trump thing. You know, it's Dude, two completely Two disasters. Yeah, but 

Sudipto: exactly, Biden is a great example. Biden Trump is a great example. Now what? 

Abhinandan: I mean, yeah. 

Jayashree: They're saying either you, so they're saying that what you tell people is that you're either voting for the actual genocide or you're voting for a worse potential genocide.

And those are your options. Those are your 

Abhinandan: options. Yeah, dude. I mean, that is. If you want to really have sympathy, people who have, who have a universe choice than us, [00:58:00] it's, it's the U. S. A. It's the U. S., you think? For sure. 

Sudipto: And there 

Raman: also, I mean, something wrong with their politics too. I mean, the right movement has come up in such a big way in America in the form of, I mean, Trump.

So, I mean, uh, some, um, the past politicians had done something wrong. I mean, as your argument, 

Sudipto: I'm 

Raman: using, so it's the same here also, but 

Sudipto: also I 

Abhinandan: think it's a, it's a digital age. It's also communication, social media, there is enough data to suggest social media has made us more tribal and the loudest voice disproportionate influence.

It's a, it's a question of the digital age. Internet has changed things just significantly. Right. 

Jayashree: Yeah, that, but also I feel like people who are always and have always been shameless. I mean, basically horrible people are now more sort of feel more equipped to. Tell you that they are horrible and how horrible they are.

So we have access to that info. Yeah. 

Sudipto: About 

Raman: Himachal Pradesh. Interesting [00:59:00] story. If we are going to discuss Rajya Sabha election. That's what we were 

Abhinandan: discussing. Rahul sir, didn't you not 

Jayashree: know this discussion on nihilism was 

Abhinandan: allegedly 

Raman: on the Rajya Sabha? So a very interesting theories, uh, are Some, some grapevine.

Uh, there is a tested understanding whenever there is Jeba election, say if BJP is going to win three seats, uh, in up, so they will, there will be three persons and they 

Abhinandan: get So when you first sell the audience, how, how, how are sba? They get elected. Unop opposed. Okay. It's not a direct election. Hi. 

Raman: It's not a direct 

Sudipto: election.

Hi. 

Abhinandan: It's not a direct election. Pura assembly ka jo size 

Raman: hota hai. Haan. Uske size ke aisaab se. Then, then if say BJP was supposed to win seven seats from UP. But 

Abhinandan: based on the MLAs that they have in the state, they pitted 

Raman: eight candidates. So the moment you do eight candidates, you know that some BJP is, 

Sudipto: you know, 

Abhinandan: they are expecting some 

Raman: support, some game, the similar thing, you know, [01:00:00] like happened in, uh, Uh, and, uh, Imaal.

Imaal also. So in Al, I mean, uh, the thing is some people, uh, there's one, uh, politician 1, 1, 1, uh, politician who's into sports also. So he's the, he, it was said that he knew about it, so he did.

Abhinandan: Does anyone know this whole rule of, because it was tied, it'll be a draw of lots. Is that decided on the spot or is that part of the written rules of election commission? Because I, I think that was kind of decided on this, that since it's a 

Jayashree: tie. No, no, no. I think it is. No, that it, and that's the case for other like even municipal elections, I think.

The thing says that in case of a tie, you would 

Abhinandan: draw lots. That actually doesn't make sense. I mean, I, I don't think it's, if it's a tie, then there should be a repo, no? Like a runoff. Rajya 

Sudipto: Sabha 

Raman: election, the way they're so flimsy, like in Haryana, Subhash Chandra was, the way he was elected was so [01:01:00] flimsy.

That's true. They changed the pen. The color of the pen was different. So 

Abhinandan: it's 

Jayashree: as per rule 75 of the conduct of election rules of 1961, the chief election officer of the state will hold draw of lot. Seems like a schoolboy 

Abhinandan: thing to me. Yeah, even I think it's a bit bizarre. So, uh, so we can go into the emails because we've passed an hour of all the feedback we have received.

But before we do that, anybody has anything more to share of all the exciting stuff that happened in the week? Yes. Did you check out the drug haul? Oh, dude, 

Sudipto: 3, 200. 3, 000 kilos of hash? 150 kilos of, uh, from Gura, right? Again, Gura. Now my only thing is now all my, all the people I'm speaking to since morning about that, I've been asking them, man, who can afford to order a consignment that size?

Abhinandan: That's a good point. We are not taking names, but yeah. So one 

Sudipto: 50, uh, NoJa that really worth one 50 kilos of meth. Okay. I just did the math for the hash. Okay. So it is in Delhi and all that it is [01:02:00] 5, 000, 10, 000 rupees a tola. So let's say, uh, wholesale rates are 5, 000 rupees a tola, right? So you have 3000 kilos of that damn thing, which goes to some 200, 300 crores.

Yeah. That's just the hash. And then there's 150 kilos of meth and 

Abhinandan: there's something else. Or maybe it was, it may be the transporter basically is supplying to five different parties. Each is still should be able to, each of 

Sudipto: those parties should be able to afford 

Abhinandan: at least a 500, 800 crores. They should be able to pay cash down.

100 crores? 

Sudipto: With which money we can start a channel? 

Abhinandan: Dude, yeah, that's true. I mean, that's the kind of, if someone's ordering a consignment that big, that means they have that kind of money, man. 

Raman: But the fact that the police caught it. There should be some politics behind that. 

Jayashree: They, haven't they accused Pakistan or something though?

They said that the packet had some 

Abhinandan: Pakistani name on it. Something like that. But the thing came from Iran, I believe. But isn't this the third haul in Gujarat? There was an earlier one also in Gujarat. Second major. There was one in Gujarat just last year if I remember correctly. That was from 

Raman: the, uh, [01:03:00] Mundrapur.

Sudipto: Mundrapur. 

Abhinandan: Right. Anyway, right. So yeah, that would be an interesting story. Who has the money? Actually, dude, in India, too many people have too much money now. I mean, if 

Jayashree: we read Indian Express's list of the hundred greatest Indians or whatever, I'm sure we can pick out a bunch who would have the money. 

Abhinandan: So you're saying it's one of the hundred.

No, wait a minute. But that hundred majority of them are powerful. I'll take 

Jayashree: no names. 

Abhinandan: But, but, uh, I think in the, in this story, it's. And it's, it's a very difficult one to actually, it'll take so long. I mean, I think this is an investigation about these repeated huge drug, what is a drug route in India?

Where does it go? It's a story that can be done, but the pure, now here's what I mean, the financials, the commercial story, it will easily take a year if not two to really do a story of this. to do justice. If you want to do a serious story, it'll take a year because of the amount of places you'll have to travel to the amount of contact that you get sift [01:04:00] through because the, you know, the repercussions will be huge.

You'll stay alive 

Sudipto: till the end of that 

Abhinandan: period.

Sudipto: Another big problem. Yeah, narcotics will. 

Abhinandan: But reminding you, please subscribe to the Join News London News subscription. So if there's a podcast going behind the pay outside the paywall that you guys will decide, 

Sudipto: okay? No, you, you are, you are the ones who are training me on this entire, so 

Abhinandan: first of all.

Please all of you write to podcasts at newslondon. com and tell us why you want Sudipto to start an interview program. He'll do podcasts and all, but he should be doing a one hour video interview show on his own. I'm going to try to convince him. Now, all of you also please convince him because I think he'll be fantastic at it.

Uh, but for some reason he's. Reluctant to do video, but we will all convince him together, together. We can, and we will. He used to do a show 

Sudipto: called [01:05:00] and ironically 

Abhinandan: he was arrested for murdering his own wife, but then convicted later also. And his, and his end was after he'd show this. You know, had his program of how this person is on the run and in all fairness, some of his shows.

The person who was on the run got caught after his show because it was very popular on Z. Oh. It was before, this is before news channels came in. Uh, and his sign off line used to be, Together we can and we will make a difference. 

Jayashree: Salita, I think you've found your show. I think I have. Remake it for the For the modern age.

Abhinandan: So now we'll get onto the mails, you can write into us at podcasts at newslondon. com I repeat, podcasts at newslondon. com with suggestions, recommendations, critique, what you think we can do better, etc, etc. The app criticism, please hold for another week or [01:06:00] two, we know there's a big problem. We have more or less fixed it, but it'll be fixed by next week, I'm telling you for sure.

Now, uh, you want to do the honors of, uh, starting off with the emails and then I can take over when you're tired. Thank you. 

Jayashree: Sure. So the first one is from Raghav, who says, Hello team, I wish to draw your attention to the problem of Bhiwadi. It's one of the largest industrial areas in Rajasthan, part of NCR.

There's been problem of toxic effluents released by chemical industries on the road. It's converted a huge part of the main road to a lake of poisonous waste. I've been witness to this phenomenon at least since 2002. The problem has only grown and it's a story of blatant corruption, competing political interests.

Thanks. Interstate rivalry, inaction of pollution control boards, and misery of the people who face it every day. I implore you to do a story on this issue. It's barely 60 kilometers from Delhi, submerged under a deluge of black water. Keep up the good work. 

Abhinandan: Interesting, you sent someone there. I don't know if it's the same place, but back when I was at Aaj Tak, there was a disease called Dropsy, which had, uh, in Delhi there were Dropsy deaths, and suddenly Dropsy had become this [01:07:00] major thing, I'll just Google it.

And I had gone to, um, This one place, I'm wondering if it was, it was, actually it wasn't 60 kilometers from Delhi, it was closer. So dropsy was That Delhi 

Jayashree: dropsy thing was an adulteration thing, no? Yeah, yeah. They ate 

Abhinandan: something. Yeah, so there was a lot of these, so I had gone to where there was this one place, apparently, where these factories were, and there was a bunch of these deaths that happened in those areas.

And I went to this basti, which was under about two feet of water that was smelling foul and it wasn't a monsoon. And it wasn't like, like one, just one small neighborhood. It was a huge area. Hundreds of thousands of people lived there. Uh, you know, because you have bastis here also, but So I was like, dude, like, what happened?

Did a sewer burst here or They said, no, this, it's like this. I said, it's like this, like right now. This, you know, it's like this through the year, not [01:08:00] just in monsoon. And this was like where, uh, um, Bawana is near Bawana, I remember, and I had never seen that part of Delhi. Of course, now I've seen all of Delhi, but yeah, I can imagine, um, but yeah, we should check it out.

Jayashree: Yeah. So the next letter is from Dheeraj who says, hi there. Something didn't feel right when the politics in Pakistan was dissed for three Haftas in a row. The Pakistan expert predicted a Nawaz sweep, which did not happen. Imran's party did manage a big win which I thought was a big fuck you to the army by the Pakistani Awam.

Was this not worth a discussion or am I completely missing the point here? I thought the tactics of the Tariq was a good pointer for Indian opposition parties. Um, and was the Pakistan discussion, we did have a Nirupama and then it did seem like Nawaz Sharif was going to control it to the extent that he would win.

So that was her prediction and it was 

Abhinandan: wrong. I see. Okay. I mean, yeah, but I mean, again, if we are to discuss Pakistan, you should get a Pakistani journalist. No. 

Sudipto: My Nirupama is. Pretty 

Abhinandan: good at it. No, no, but also someone who's actually Pakistan's journalist anyway, [01:09:00] maybe. We'll, let's see. 

Jayashree: Next email is from Nik, who says, I totally disagree with chao's view that atheism has never been mainstream in India.

We as Indians are so ignorant about birthmark, which was the dominant Patha. People and kings follow his latest 780 the Morin Empire. Ashoka has inscriptions, Tupa, et cetera. Erected all across India in 350 BC, we can also find 780 inscriptions of other kings telling us about Budhmarg, but this aspect of our history has not been told to us.

It's not been part of any syllabus and it was not a religion purely because it does not believe in God or in Punar Janma etc. or theories of basically all religions. I think we need to learn more about our history. 

Abhinandan: I mean, I don't know if there's data or there's even possible to get data on this, but I would find it hard to kind of defend the proposition that atheism was a mainstream concept in India.

I don't know. Would you think so? 

Sudipto: In the times of the, you know, when Buddhism was ascendant. This was, uh, yeah, I [01:10:00] mean, in fact, for that matter, if you look at the, uh, uh, interpretations of the things that they found in Harappa in those sites, they see it as a, you know, as a kind of, uh, uh, people who are largely indifferent to a divine other, you know, there's, there's very little evidence that they kind of prostrated in front of a God or did a lot of rituals and, you know, and when, um, I mean, in this case, definitely we talk about Buddhism versus Brahmanism, right, where the shift happened with Adi Shankara, who actually came into the Sringeri Math in Karnataka.

Where, uh, Brahmanism was at its lowest ebb. So he borrows borrows some elements from Buddhism, you know, which he then again kind of, uh, alloys with, you know, uh, the Vedic thing. And then he comes up with this new faith. And a lot of people would talk to, talk about the benign aspects of Hinduism. They're all things that Adi Shankara literally borrowed from Buddhism, you know.

[01:11:00] I 

Abhinandan: don't know, Harnik. I mean, I. I mean, I guess my entire view is of just modern history, but I, uh, I mean, all the history that we studied when we were doing class 10. Religion has always been an important part of it, but yeah, maybe atheism is mainstream at some point. I don't know. Hmm. You have a view on this?

No, I don't 

Jayashree: know enough about the thing that he's writing about, so I have no 

Abhinandan: clue. Hmm. Hmm, 

Sudipto: Mauryan time, yeah, people speak about it, yeah. Then the Gupta period and all that, you know. The 

Abhinandan: golden age of the Gupta empire. Hmm. That was a chapter name. Yeah, that was a chapter. When 

Sudipto: the Mahabharata was written, right?

Imagine to have been written in that period. 

Raman: Abhinandan 

Sudipto: used to write 

Abhinandan: history. I still remember. Sir, mujhe sab poems bhi yaad hai. Mujhe, mujhe ye bhi, I went to Jhansi. Satpura ke ghare jungal. I didn't have that in my syllabus. I went to Jhansi and I was shooting a show. My assumption was that we will, all the children of Jhansi will know that story.

You know, [01:12:00] Singha, Sanhil, Uthe, Raj, Banshone, Bhrikuti, Taneethi, Aayi, Bude, Bharatme, Phirse, Nai, Ja. So I said, okay, now, Choku, Choku, I said, you know, and we'll, Baccho karoge? Haan, haan, karenge, karenge. They want to be on TV. I said, okay, come 20 kids on TV. And then I said, one, two, three, rolling. And we started, and I was the only one understanding the poem.

I said, you guys don't know the poem? Hamein nahi aati, uncle, aap bolna, peeche bolna kya. I said, you're in Jhansi? I said, I remember this poem. 

Sudipto: Yeah, yeah. 

Jayashree: They're turning to each other and saying, what a loser. 

Abhinandan: Who's this man? I said, uncle, aap bade vel le ho yaar. 

Jayashree: Yeah. Yes. So the next email is from an anonymous who says, congratulations on the electoral funding story with the news minute.

Great work. It makes me very happy to be part, albeit in a very small way of your endeavor. Hoping to contribute way more once I get a new job. It's February 26 today and I was hoping for your story to be picked up by major news outlets. The silence has been deafening, not just in mainstream media, but also among major podcasters and [01:13:00] YouTubers.

I have shared this story and your YouTube video with several nonbelievers, but one cannot expect people, especially those of surrender to the supreme leader. to read articles or watch a non sensational hour long video. Perhaps you can release shorts regarding the story to get more people interested and pay attention to this fantastic piece 

Sudipto: of journalism.

Yeah, it was 

Raman: followed 

Sudipto: up, 

Abhinandan: uh, story. Yeah, a couple of papers did follow up, but they, yeah, they did not really get it, delve into it. But they focused 

Jayashree: mostly because the Congress press conference, not 

Abhinandan: because of, yeah, 

Raman: that's 

Jayashree: true. Rahul says, Hello NL team. I eagerly anticipate the release of Hafta podcast. It's the only one I listen to while working or engaging in seated tasks.

I greatly admire Manisha for her keen awareness of recent events and her rational viewpoints. I mean, and then candid perspectives resonate with me personally, Ravindra's contributions are always a delight. Keep up the good work. So they thought you and I can just leave basically. But yeah, then he says, I have a suggestion.

It would be incredibly helpful if you could [01:14:00] recommend the NL stories and ground reports posted for the week, or at least provide a link to them in the podcast description. Integrating this alongside the end of podcast recommendations would be fantastic. Much love from Denmark. Does it mean that everything that goes 

Abhinandan: up in the week ground reports?

I, I, I think mean not just, not the opinion piece, but the ground reports that news run is done in that week. I think we can have a separate newsletter for that. That's a good idea. That could go as a separate thing every week. But we do have that on. Yeah, but does, but it have all the ground reports linked in the table don't, 

Jayashree: it's got all the ground ones and some of the opinions.

Abhinandan: Just a 

Sudipto: couple of opinions. Let's do it 

Abhinandan: jointly. Let's do it jointly. I know. In fact, we should have a joint. Let's work on that. Let's have a joint newsletter that goes out with News Minute and News Laundry 

Sudipto: ground reports. And you know, such a, suddenly our wingspan starts looking very wide because suddenly we have North India, South India, some district 

Abhinandan: somewhere in the south.

We should have a new newsletter. Rahul, that's a good idea, but I think you've given 

Sudipto: I can give a shout out, I mean, people like, uh, uh, Bhavani, uh, [01:15:00] Shivani, then you have Akshaya. I think newsletter would be a better idea. All these people are going on the ground and they could be read in the north, you know.

Abhinandan: Yeah, exactly. That's a very good idea. We'll do that. Let's work on that. Sorry, Jayshree, you were saying something? 

Jayashree: No, I was saying, I think a separate newsletter like that would make more sense than just crowding it into our hafta, 

Abhinandan: which already has, then we are a national magazine, huh? 

Raman: No 

Abhinandan: longer a 

Sudipto: newsletter.

Yes. 

Abhinandan: National. 

Sudipto: Sir, 

Abhinandan: you 

Sudipto: give one from 

Abhinandan: there. 

Jayashree: No, it's fine. It's fine. Don't worry. You guys look so cool doing it that I will abstain. Thank you. Yes. So email from Ayush, who says, I have been a subscriber many years now, at least since Hafta went behind the paywall for the first time. I am very heartened by Newfoundland's progress and the lovely media environment you've created for reporters.

The lovely editing team puts out articles that are relevant long after they are published, especially in a world where history rhymes so much that it almost repeats. Also, I am super excited about the articles being read as I was missing out on some articles due to lack of time and not being able to see it.

The [01:16:00] incident with Caravan having to take its article down reminded me that India's media landscape is closer to Russia or China than any other democracies, and the IT Act which has been challenged in court if I am not mistaken. Also, there should be an account of how much the government spends in media and for rallies that are arranged during elections.

That budget would be a crazy expense at the cost of a taxpayer. Also, my question is, how does the affluent public not realize the government is using their money to muzzle the voices that should speak up for them? Thanks for the good work, all 

Abhinandan: the best. Just on the last bit, Ayush, I think they realize it's just that they don't care because they still have enough to have a good life.

They really don't give a shit. 

Jayashree: Duh. Next email has a lot of Hindi, so I think you 

Abhinandan: can read it. So Parth says, I am Parth. I have been listening to you people agree and disagree on different levels and topics for a long, long time, but subscribed last year. Uh, who subscribed way too late like a true Indian, but now I'm trying to get more people to independent media to redeem myself.

Thank you, Parth. Appreciate it. What motivated me to write was the malfunction of your crappy app for the podcast. Isko theek karlo [01:17:00] yaar. Most of it has been fixed, Parth, as you may have noticed. The rest will be fixed soon. Uh, I always tell my dad, challenging his RSS leaning Hindu Rashtra inclination jokingly, Pata hai, in a sense, tumko dekh ke tasalli hoti hai.

Mujhe bharosa hai ki 5 7 saal se zyada kuch nahi chalega BJP ka kyonki, in order of influence, One inefficiency of bureaucrats, two supreme court, three farmers, four students, very underrated, five opposition. Looking elsewhere in the world with what could happen and what is happening, I think India is going through an Indira phase.

What was pointed out by Sudipto and, uh, the discussion we had. I used to be very tense, but I realized I've also become a little paranoid, so I try and dial it back. Well, you've become too paranoid. A lot of people have become paranoid. Story of our lives. By the way, regarding the new data protection cloaked and tyre control three laws.

Were they not challenged in court? What happened? Uh, I don't know about the data protection laws where they were controlled. [01:18:00] I mean, I don't know to what level of notice. Because there was a sad dive. Privacy, is it a fundamental right or not? That was being heard. I don't think a final has a final, um, order been given on the privacy as a fundamental, right?

I don't, I don't, I'll just check. So I don't know. And even the Kunal Kamra versus the it amendments, the final order is not coming to speaking of final orders. The Supreme court had said that all the people who donated to through electoral bonds, 13th March is the last day. March. Let's see what happens there, but part of the 13th, but 

Raman: SBI is supposed to give the 

Abhinandan: list, but for your kind words.

Thank you for trying to convince people to subscribe to us. Really appreciate it. And may you long hair us agree and disagree on the hafta week after week. Yeah. 

Jayashree: Um, next mail is from Norman who says, I regret the length of this mail, but I felt compelled to bring it to, bring to light a concerning trend within our country's esteemed educational institutions, where academic spaces are being infiltrated for political indoctrination by the BJP.

I found myself in a [01:19:00] disconcerting situation upon entering my classroom, a small faction of classmates deliberately engaged in provocative behavior, using random Muslim greetings in my presence, clearly directed at me. Despite my initial bewilderment, I attempted to overlook their actions, but their persistence forced me to address the issue directly.

Later, in the absence of our professor, they brazenly chanted Jai Shri Ram slogans. When I requested they cease, they responded with unwarranted inquiries, questioning my nationality with implications of allegiance to Pakistan. This unwarranted hostility left me deeply upset, especially considering my consistent respectful demeanor towards them, despite limited interaction.

Their subsequent threats, warning me against expressing my dissenting views on Modi and Hindutva, left me fearful for my safety. Desperate, I sought recourse with the head of our department, only to be met with disbelief. I said, I was informed that seeking support from the college administration or faculty would yield no results as they align themselves with the agenda of the current government.

I was cautioned against escalating the matter to the principal as it could potentially backfire. To my dismay, instead of receiving protection from the threats, I was advised [01:20:00] to apologize to my aggressors and refrain from expressing my opinions on social media. The realization that such incidents could occur within a renowned institution like the University of Delhi is profoundly disheartening.

Abhinandan: Which, which university is this? Delhi. 

Jayashree: Within University of Delhi, but he's 

Abhinandan: not named. He hasn't said which university. It could be any of the universities in Delhi. Yeah, the one actually, um, I heard of a instance, I mean, these are still adults who I think, I mean, I'm, I'm not saying they have more nastier influence than children, but on assumes children don't really indulge in this.

Uh, I was just told by a friend of mine that in the school, which is very Posh school of Delhi. Um, this Muslim kid was harassed that are you Pakistani? I was like, I was like, dude, like 12, 11 year olds. Yeah. It's reached that level. Yeah. Which is why I was saying leadership matters. I mean, it's, it's not like suddenly these kids have ideology.

Yeah. What a leader makes normal is what people think is [01:21:00] normal. No, I 

Sudipto: can't disagree with that. Yeah, 

Raman: absolutely. Barber, uh, you know, he works like a, as a barber and he's got a shop. He brought his family and his, uh, children. Children were studying in that Hill State, uh, Uttarakhand. So they, again, they started teasing, uh, his children and, uh, he had to send them back.

He took them, uh, out of the school and, uh, now they've been to some village and they're studying over there. 

Abhinandan: In fact, we discussed this in Hafta a few years ago where there was this. That argument in a train, which led to someone being made to shout Jai Shri Ram and being beaten up on video. It wasn't a communal, it was an argument.

It was on seats, you know, who's, but because two people arguing that one was a Muslim, it basically goes down there because then you're just the stronger party. Uh, yeah. Right. 

Jayashree: So. Last letter is from Sudeep, who says, Many [01:22:00] subscribers like me depend on NL to form their opinions on various issues. To remain unbiased, it's important for news laundry presenters and interviewers to push back whenever any important assertion is made, whether one implicitly agrees with it or not.

This did not happen in the recent Hafta 473 discussion on the farmer's agitation with agricultural policy expert Devinder Sharma. For example, citing data, a claim was made that average income from farming in India is 27 rupees a day. What is the source of this data? Since it doesn't include non farm income, how is this figure even calculated?

Similarly, without doubting the pitiable condition of small farmers in India, the role of rich versus poor farmers in the agitation can't be resolved by merely mentioning Abhinandan's rich farmer friend in passing. Especially since it has been made such a big issue by those who oppose the agitation. A related point is that an average number is not indicative enough because we don't get a nuanced view of the range of income in this case and therefore its impact on different income groups.

Similarly, I'm unclear as to why only farmers from the north are seen to be agitating about MRP. Moreover, the effect of these changes on agricultural labourers [01:23:00] is not considered. In summary, the discussion was neither as nuanced as I had expected it to be, nor did it leave me informed or educated on the issue as I was hoping.

I suggest for a counter view, please invite someone like Ashok Gulati, who opposes the MRP, and ask him some tough questions. 

Abhinandan: Okay, so they, we'll try to do an LT on this, but, uh, on the South, why, I mean, I know there were some farmers from Karnataka who were trying to come for this agitation. I don't know about Tam Nadu and Tam Kerala, but I, I, I saw the videos of the Karnataka farmers want to join, but more the farmers this time 

Sudipto: also.

Correct? Yeah. Yeah. No, but if, I don't know if I got the entire rift of what this person's saying, but essentially the fact that the, that farmers are not a homogenous. Is that where, where the, where the letters 

Abhinandan: coming 

Jayashree: from? He was saying that, yeah, it doesn't account for disparity of income of our own. That 

Abhinandan: is, 

Sudipto: that is fair.

And I, and I do feel that, uh, in the case of this particular round of agitation. So there's a lot to be suspicious about, you know, who they said they're not political. Uh, you know that in the beginning, uh, they were, they [01:24:00] did not want the support of the left. Then the left turned up over there and said, no, we are giving our solidarity anyway, but we can't.

Who landed up from the left this time? I can't remember who, but there was a delegation, I think that extended solidarity. At least they gave a statement saying that we are extending solidarity, but they did not join them directly. But, uh, this 

Abhinandan: though. I think it prohibited them from coming on stage or talking on their behalf.

No, in 

Sudipto: this again, so there's a left wing view and a right wing view. But I do feel that these questions are very important as to who is a farmer. And this is, in fact, something that I think, uh, got me into a little bit of a little bit of trouble with my mentor, P. Sainath. You know, uh, I have a lot of regard for him and he keeps saying farmer, farmer and we were a bunch of Dalit kids in the class and we said, but what is a farmer?

Who is a farmer? Right? And in the language of the left, the farmer is even today, I was like, I was preparing for my interviews for CPI and CPM. Even now they're, they're Uh, the nomenclature is landlord, peasant medium, uh, land holding large, land holding small land holding farmers. Uh, whereas you need to find [01:25:00] other identifiers for these people, these different groups, because these land holdings are a result of your social location.

Uh, you know, so, so many other 

Abhinandan: things are there. In fact, there is data on many of, but I mean, I think which the label was also impacted. A significant, if not majority of the quote unquote farmers don't own the land, they just are tilling it. But one, uh, so they, uh, your question we can answer like for sure is the data.

That data is from the situational assessment survey for agricultural households. It came out in 2021. It's computed the average monthly income of a farm household at 10, 218. If you were to not include income from non farm activities, farmers earn 27 a day. This is from that. And, uh, on the website, which is microdata.

gov, which is a government website, you can also get the complete report. Uh, what you make of this report is up to you, but that's the data. It is credible enough [01:26:00] data, um, as data goes in today. Has come from the government. Yeah. So, so that is the source of data when it comes to the rest of the stuff that you spoke about.

Yeah. I mean, I guess we can have, you know, more views, but from what I've understood from, I think, uh, uh, chokers that also spoke about this a little bit. And my understanding of the commerce and the economics of this, it is a product and what their demands are, et cetera, et cetera. We can have a longer distance like market pricing and work in two ways.

One is how the market demand and supply determinant. One is if there's a minimum support price and, you know, like fuel, the government decides or certain things. Right. Now, if you, I don't know if you remember sugarcane, sugar was a big issue in the seventies and eighties. Uh, because sugar was, in fact, sugar mills and most of them were owned in UP.

All the sugar mills took money from Subrata Rai Sahara. That's how it became, because every day they had to give cash to the farmers who came. The government decided how much sugarcane you could [01:27:00] crush. They give you quotas, the government decided the price of the sugarcane and the government decided the price at which sugar you can sell.

So the economics of it, no sugar mill could make money. So every sugar mill made money by crushing more than their quota and selling it in the black market. Because if you just, so it, so my understanding of this problem and this aspect of it is, this is a unique business where input costs. a variable.

They could be anything. They could fluctuate wildly. And what comes of that is not up to you. Like, for example, if I say I will get 10 things and I'll make this, I can give you 99 percent guarantee that I will make this in X amount of time after I have the screen, this, et cetera. But farm once I've sowed the seeds, et cetera, et cetera, six months later, I don't know, you know, rain comes, not come, weather, pests.

And then when it happens, if there's a bumper crop, [01:28:00] the price, you know, goes way down. Basically, the economics of this business is extremely high risk. And one of the things that I think Devendra sir said was that. Insurance is one way to take care of it. So I think on that aspect, I was a little better informed after the discussion, but we'll try to get a more informed discussion so you can learn more about it.

And so can we all. Can I, can I just say one very 

Sudipto: rhetorical way through a statement? Okay. Now in the, in the, in a, in a big picture sense, you're asking for government support. Right. Uh, where you're resisting government intervention in that entire sector. Right. Uh, questions, several questions come. Land reforms will happen then.

Collectivization could happen then. If you want the government to mitigate your risk, then abandon your autonomy. Grant us the, you know, fact that we know the economy better as, as the state. You know, in a, in a more controlled environment, your farming can be more productive because we also know that the Indian farmer is among the most inefficient [01:29:00] in the world.

And that is a result of a lack of education. That's a result of a lack of modernity. That's a social problem that is resulting to, resulting in an economic problem. Also geographic. But let's look at the social. The fact that this is an uneducated person, okay, who refuses to get educated because he has land holding.

And I say he very deliberately over here because he doesn't even acknowledge. the contribution of the she in the agriculture business. Now, this is a person who needs to be brought into modernity and for which you need to have greater state intervention in that entire agriculture sector. Will that landholding fellow who's deciding elections allow for 

Abhinandan: this?

Well, it depends on what those demands are. I mean, like you said, it's rhetoric, so it's a very broad based thing, but the very fact that one wants government intervention. means that one does want intervention protection. They want 

Sudipto: government protection, but not government intervention. Uh, 

Abhinandan: that's just semantics.

I mean, 

Sudipto: protection means price protection. They want price protection. They want the thing to be purchased at 

Abhinandan: a certain rate. There is a way to make it efficient and win win for all. I think [01:30:00] it's a proposal that someone should take to them. The government says that, okay, we can control this. You know, this is the ideal land holding.

This is what one should do. Land reforms, take 

Sudipto: away land from all these 50 acre, 100 acre wallahs. 

Abhinandan: But I think already there is a cap on agricultural land. It had been lifted during the SCZ time. There's a cap on agricultural land. I don't know if it's in all states, but I definitely know that there is a cap in Punjab, Haryana.

I think that cap was put like in the 70s. Even 

Raman: otherwise, because of the social, for the social reasons as well, it has changed quite 

Abhinandan: a After that entire, I mean, there was a huge land reform movement. The whole cap of land, this happened, I think, in Indira Gandhi's time only. Yeah, yeah. The Bhudan movement.

Bhudan movement. But, It didn't happen much. It didn't happen much, but around that time, they also put a cap then. No, but there is a way to Yeah, yeah. I mean, because I remember one of 

Sudipto: the It's not reforms. You know, like, it's not land holding reforms. It's, you cap it at a certain level. You can't go beyond that.

And that, there's an [01:31:00] exception, uh, when it comes to plantations. Which is, you know, rubber plantations, tea plantations, there it is considered an industrial activity, not a farming activity. There 

Abhinandan: are some of these things. Also, I think during the SCZ Act, that was one of the things that they had waived. That the cap on agricultural land they had removed.

Because before that there was a cap. So yeah, I mean, to what extent, but the intervention, to what extent it should be there or should not be there, but Purely the economics of just like the, the economics of sugar did not make sense in the eighties. There was no way you could actually run a mill that made money if you stuck to the rules.

you know, similarly with a lot of agriculture. On that note, uh, thank you for writing in. You can write into us at podcasts at newslearn. com. A better way of doing it is click on the link in the show notes below and a form will open out, which you can actually send us your feedback. We only entertain the feedback of subscribers.

So subscribe and pay to keep news free [01:32:00] because when the public pays, the public is served. When advertisers pay, advertisers are served. We will never get tired of saying it. We will say it. Till the day we die. Now on that note, let's get the recommendations for the week. Jess, you want to go first? 

Jayashree: Yes. Uh, I have just one recommendation.

Uh, so it's a bit of shameless self promotion, but, uh, 10 years ago I did this story, um, where I reported on self immolation suicides in Tamil Nadu. So I basically been looking at crime, uh, NCIB data. For 2013, and out of 10, 000 people who died, and 10, 000 people died by suicide from self immolation that year, in 2013, and 20, in 2000 of them were in Nadu.

So, there are a lot of reasons for it, I mean, there's social, political, there's this entire history and culture and whatever attached to it, but The reason I'm resurrecting the story is also because of Aaron Bushnell who died outside the Israeli embassy. I think it's, I think it's sort of important to remember why it happens and also it's interesting to sort of see why people make these choices.

So it was a very tragic sort of story to [01:33:00] work on but, um, you can read it anyway, why not? So it's published in Functioning Magazine. Um, the headline is a most painful way to die. It is behind the paywall, but I mean, all our listeners are supposedly independent media supporters. So I think they know what to do.

Abhinandan: Right. So, yeah. Thank you. Raman Sir. 

Raman: The two good articles, uh, on Consumer Index, uh, the data which has just come, come in, uh, In Indian Express written by Ashwini Deshpande, in Hindu, uh, written by M. Suresh Babu, the two economists and they have, uh, you know, um, contested this data and they have also, uh, you know, brought out the anomaly of it.

Uh, how, uh, you know, how you can end up misinterpreting, uh, it, and also they pointed out, uh, you know, to the fact that, uh, if we go by this consumer index [01:34:00] and we, if we go by what government does. So I think we have some kind of dual economy, um, like, uh, as you said, that Uh, on the one hand you 80 crow people are being fed free Russian andandand, and you are saying there is 8% of, uh, poverty, uh, this thing.

And also, uh, you say that there is no, the unemployment has decreased over the years, but you have, uh, so many, uh, under rega, so many employments that have come up. So, so it's quite contradictory and, uh, so very good. Two articles, uh, which appear today and, uh. The third, uh, recommendation is, uh, Jay Mazumdar's article on this animal, naming the animals beautiful anchor, which came out yesterday, uh, and we should be 

Sudipto: discussing these three.

So Depto? Uh, uh, one to definitely our own, uh, election, uh, funding. All these stories, we did that, uh, investigation on the judge, no? Right. Oh, News 

Abhinandan: Minute. Yes. Please read 

Sudipto: it down to the [01:35:00] last line. Also, there is something interesting in it. You know, it is such a nice, uh, story. So well structured also. Uh, I'll give the last part out.

Okay. So, uh, the judge has withdrawn the complaint realizing. Uh, that it is his own mistake after all to give some two crows to somebody, 

Abhinandan: basically the story is about a judge from a high court who gave money to these two fellows to get his, 

Sudipto: sir, sir, sir, not two fellows, no random people. Okay. These are who he claims.

His digital trail shows that he is the head of some international, uh, you know, Hindutva organization. He's not like a pushover. Some big guys. 

Abhinandan: Please read the story, link in the show notes. So that is one 

Sudipto: recommendation. Please read. Uh, the other, uh, of course, I mean, because we discuss so much about it, you know, uh, do read Dilip Mandal's piece.

You might not agree with it. There are points I also don't agree with. But it is, it is an interesting provocation. It is a question that we have to encounter in this entire political debate. 

Abhinandan: And you must [01:36:00] read stuff that you don't disagree with, that's the whole idea of reading. Yeah, you 

Sudipto: might not agree with.

And, uh, also there's a piece appeared that is, that's appeared in the print today by Subhajit Naskar, uh, this professor in Jadavpur, who has a very third view of what's happening in Bengal. Right. You have the right view and you have, I would assume in some sense, uh, Mamata occupies the left today for whatever it's worth, but he has a third view and I think that's an interesting take on the matter in terms of what's happening in Bengal.

Right. He says that no matter who is doing the beating and the killing and all of that, the ones who are dying belong to one strata of society. Um, uh, so yeah, these three records. 

Abhinandan: Okay, my recommendation is a podcast called 3 million, the devastating story of the Bengal famine of 1943 in British India, uh, it's called 3 million because 3 million people estimated to have died, which is a, I mean, just think about that number.

It is more than what at least is claims of, of during the partition, the amount of people who actually died. It is deeply distressing, deeply disturbing. [01:37:00] Uh, but the following three things that are key takeaways for me. Is. How, um, horrible human beings can be, especially when you have privilege and you can see everything around you.

And I've said this so many times on podcasts, like in sitting in 2024, we look back and say, how could humanity allow this to happen? I think people in 2200 will be sitting back and saying, so you guys are going about your regular lives where there were women with their little babies on red lights dying in the winter.

And you were going for dinners. I think every age will have its normal. Just like it was normal to have slaves at one point. I think what we think is normal today, future generations will say, you guys are fucked in the head. Uh, and the second thing, what was key in this was, no British newspapers allowed to use the word famine because they did not want, especially during the second world war and [01:38:00] all that, you know, this propaganda to go out that, oh, there's a famine, a man made famine they've caused.

So you were not allowed to use the word famine and a British newspaper found a loophole. There was no mention that you cannot publish paper photographs. So he sent his photographer to click photographs of people who look like skeletons, you know, someone being eaten on the street, so whatever, and he published those, but he didn't use the word famine anywhere.

Uh, so that was what a British newspaper did. Uh, when the British had rules like they did, nothing has changed clearly in so many ways, but people still find ways for the truth out there. And that's what I hope we do with your support. Thank you to our sound recordist, Anil. Thank you to our producer, Aryan.

Thank you to my panelists, Jayshree, Raman sir, and Sudipto. And thank you to all of you. This hafta is free again, but we'll get that fixed. Keep supporting us. Keep supporting the News Minute and let's convince Sudipto to start [01:39:00] doing a video show. And meanwhile, as we end, here is not a song this week, but a poem about Gautam Buddha, since we were talking about the atheist culture of India and Buddha particularly, of how he who was Against idol worship and God and such became a God himself.

I hope you enjoy it.[01:40:00] 

Sub kinder ohne Dal terash kharad nikal Bana día one bazaar me bikne ka saman Peking se Chicago tak koi nahi curio ki dukaan Jaha bhale he aur naha ho kuch Budhi ki Moorti na mile jo mango Buddha Bhagwaan Amiron ke drying room Raison ke maakaan

Kala karigari saath tum bhi ho aaseen Logon ki saundarya priyata ko dete huye taskeen Isiliye tumne ek ki thi aasman zameen

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