NL Hafta
Hafta X South Central: Highs & lows of media in 2025, influencers in news, Arnab’s ‘turnaround’
For this special year-ender episode, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri and Manisha Pande and The News Minute’s Dhanya Rajendran and Pooja Prasanna are joined by columnist and media critic Santosh Desai.
The conversation begins with a wrap of the Indian media ecosystem this year. Santosh says, “Institutions are struggling to retain credibility and resist pressure.” Dhanya argues that mainstream media exerts significant influence over people, but on social media, the results vary. Discussing the state of the media more specifically in Karnataka, Pooja notes that although it's “heavily compromised”, it can still be seen as a “lesser evil” compared to the Hindi and English media.
Manisha argues that, in terms of news consumption, the internet can be very ruthless – in contrast to legacy media, which does not have to face the crash and burn. She cites the example of Beer Biceps, whose rapid rise and fall illustrate this ruthlessness. Some influencers, Dhanya says, have also realised that “credibility comes with consistency”.
On the economic front, Abhinandan explains, “It is the lethargy of legacy media that is reflected in their belief about how business is done – in large spaces and studios. Hence, sustainability and viewership become two completely different things.”
The panel also discusses advertisements that make them nostalgic. Dhanya says, “Now, we pay to remove ads. I cannot remember the last time I watched an ad.” Meanwhile, Abhinandan notes, “The death of ads is the death of jingles, which in turn traces to the death of radio.”
While discussing Arnab Goswami's recent shows that questioned the central government, Pooja remarks, “This man can damage the country by stooping so low, but all it takes for him to be viewed as a crusader is the targeting of a soft issue as a larger strategy.”
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Letters to NL Hafta and South Central: ‘Pointless’ Nikhil Kamath article, love for Dhanya and improving AQI
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Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions & announcements
00:02:16 - Headlines
00:07:30 - Brands vs individuals: Understanding news models
00:33:15 - Karnataka Hate Speech Bill
00:38:00 - How has advertising changed?
00:59:00 - Santosh’s recommendations
01:00:00 - Arnab Goswami’s turnaround
01:07:00 - Christmas violence
01:12:00 - Letters
01:35:13 - Recommendations
Song: Badumbaaa - Zumba Zumba
References
Prasar Bharati’s curliest tale: How taxpayer money was used for influencer content
Kiran Bedi Tapes: Does the law allow a ‘concerned mother’ to request a surveillance operation?
Abhinandan’s interview with Dhruv Rathee
Abhinandan’s interview with Harvinder Kaur Chowdhury
Recommendations
Santosh Desai
Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
Abhinandan
Believer's Dilemma: Vajpayee and the Hindu Right's Path to Power, 1977–2018 by Abhishek Choudhary
Vajpayee: The Ascent of the Hindu Right, 1924–1977 by Abhishek Choudhary
Pooja Prasanna
Dhanya
The Dig: Keeladi and the Politics of India's Past by Sowmiya Ashok
The Muhammad Yunus government played with fire, now Bangladesh burns again
Manisha
Shattered Lands : Five Partitions and the Making of Modern Asia by Sam Dalrymple
Gods Guns & Missionaries: The Making of the Modern Hindu Identity by Manu S. Pillai
Subscribe to Newslaundry and The News Minute
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Recorded and produced by Priyali Dhingra. Production assistance by Megha Mukundan and Ajai. Edited by Saif Ali Ekram.
Dhanya: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to South Central A TNM podcast where we put the south at the center.
Abhinandan: Welcome to a special episode where North and South meet to get you an outside the paywall Special podcast to wrap the week and indeed the year.
Dhanya: Yes. So it's the final podcast of the year and it's a joint podcast. Joining me in the studio is Puja Pressana, the reporting head of News Minute. Hello. And joining us from Deun is Manisha Pande, the editorial director of News Laundry, Manisha Cole there.
Very, very cool. I'm wearing the heaviest sweater I have. Okay, and joining us in the studio is Santos Desai, a columnist media critique and bestselling author, and the managing director and CEO of Future Brands, limited brand and consumer consultancy. He writes widely on contemporary Indian society and marketing with the [00:01:00] popular weekly column, city, city, bang, bang in the times of India and his columns in the Mint Media International and the Ker.
Welcome Mr. Desai to the combined episode of Hafan South Central.
Santosh: Absolute pleasure to be here.
Abhinandan: Thank you.
Dhanya: Okay, so how do we go about this? We will begin the head with the headlines. Manisha,
Abhinandan: I just thought I'd also be introduced, but anyway, nevermind. I'm ab
nevermind
Dhanya: you
Abhinandan: tan.
Dhanya: Anybody who does not know ab who comes and listens to her up, I must say
Abhinandan: doesn't matter. But uh, yeah. Thank you. We'll be discussing media trends, ups and downs, highs and lows of the year, and also since we have Santos with us, whose column I'm sure many of you read, who very, uh, insightfully and accurately analyzes deconstructs and predicts media trends.
So that's what you'll be discussing. But not before we get the headlines from Manisha, did you vandalize any Christmas celebration there than Manisha?
-: No. Why?
Abhinandan: [00:02:00] What's the point of view going? Because we took care of deli. I don't know, in ela I saw there was something, um, which I'm hoping Danya kind of spent Christmas doing, but in case any losers were doing that, uh, congratulations on being the fucking biggest loser on the planet.
I hope we fall into a manhole one of these days. But yeah, let's get the headlines in. Well.
Manisha: On that, your full tone. Actually, the first headline is about, uh, multiple violent incidents on Christmas. There was one in Aam where members of Bal School destroyed Christmas decorations. Then in Ur, a visually impaired woman attending a Christmas lunch was assaulted by BGP leader who accused her of conversion.
Hindutva mob vandalized Christmas decorations at a shopping mall. In rip in Chattis clashes broke out between two groups of Christmas Carol Singers in Kerala. Meanwhile, prime Minister Nara Modi joined Christmas celebrations at the Cathedral Church of the Redemption in New Delhi. Delhi High Court on Tuesday suspended the life sentence of Expel BGP leader called Deep Sanger while, while his appeal against, [00:03:00] uh, while his appeal in the un rape case pending.
The ruling party. Party has become the top recipient of political donations in 20 24, 25, collecting more than 6,000 crow. This is 12 times more than what its major rival the Indian National Congress received, which was 517 Crow after the backlash against the new definition of the arrivals, the union environment Ministry directed states not to grant new mining leases in the Arabia Hills amid criticism about redefining the mountain range.
However, this isn't anything new. The judgment itself said that there'll be no new mining leases granted till there's a body that comes to a decision on how it would be carried out.
Abhinandan: In fact, there's a spurt. So
Manisha: reiterating the judgment,
Abhinandan: there's a spur of these influencers kind of justifying. Um, uh, pushing back against the outrage, which I'm sure is paid for.
'cause it's no coincidence
Manisha: actually on the internet. It's the, they just can't overtake the, because [00:04:00] the, uh, the anti judgment res and everything are way more organic.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manisha: I don't think it'll help at all paying a few influences to say something about this because the general mood and public opinion on this is very, very one-sided, which is against the judgment.
Hmm. Two people were killed in a Sam's West Carbie long district after clashes erupted between carbs and non-carbs. India recorded 14,875 free speech violations in 2025, including the killing of a journalists and one social media influencer. This is according to a report released by the free speech collective.
Rejected the BJP government's plea to withdraw charges against the accused in the 2015 lynching of mohamad dela. So that's some good news.
-: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: And the judge also said that the case has to be treated as most important heard daily, and ordered the government to ensure police safeguards the evidence.
Congress government meanwhile passed the tica hate speech and hate crime prevention [00:05:00] Bill 2025. Amid protest by the opposition, the bill proposes punishment of up to seven years and 50,000 fine for hate crimes and extended punishment and rupees one lack fine for repeat offenses. Maybe we can get into this a little bit.
About 95 black names have been excluded from the draft electoral roles. Inman and Nicobar and Madhi Prh. Sri Lanka Naval personnel arrested at least 12 fishermen from Tamal Coast Belt on charges of poaching in international waters, once again, highlighting the persistent tensions faced by Indian fishermen in the Park Street region.
Meanwhile, the faction led by re and re, Mara Manna announced a tie up for the upcoming municipal elections in the state. Diplomatic relations between India and Bangladesh have a critical juncture with DACA suspending visa and consular services. India has also suspended visa services at its Chita Gong Visa application center.
Following widespread violent protest triggered by the [00:06:00] death of a prominent Bangladeshi activist Sharifan ODI for the increase following the killing of dip. A 25-year-old Hindu man lynched and burned in public. On blasphemy allegations, new Delhi and haka summoned each other's own voice. Earlier this week, US authorities have discovered more than a million more documents related to Jeffrey Epstein that they plan to release in the upcoming days and weeks.
The news comes after the Justice Department released thousands of documents, some heavily redacted related to their investigations into Epstein renowned Hindi writer, poet, and novelist. We know Kumar Shukla died, Ink's riper on Tuesday. He was 88.
Abhinandan: Thanks Manisha. Um, and before we move into the discussion, I just wanna remind everybody, we have a special Yearend offer where you can get a joint subscription for up to 20% off.
You can support journalism. The QR code is on your screens. It is in the link in the show notes below. So many of you have actually made [00:07:00] sure the news minute and news laundry remain ad free and thrive, and we can do journalism without fear or favor as we have demonstrated over the last few months and indeed years.
So continue to do that. If you haven't subscribed yet, subscribe, this is outside the paywall, the year end podcast. And if you have subscribed, you can gift this as a Christmas or New Year's gift to someone, or you can convince a friend or a subscribe because media, as you have observed over the last few years is getting completely demolished because it owes allegiance to those who support it, which inevitably are governments.
EZ with that Santos, before, uh, we've got our friends from Bangalore to just tell us a little bit about this new bill in Kerala. Uh, you've been writing on media for as long as I can remember 'cause I've been reading you for the longest time. As far as brands go with social media, uh, I remember there was a phase, the most famous being, um, when The Daily Beast kind of [00:08:00] shut down temporarily, and Andrew McMillan, I'm forgetting his name, he individually raised more money than that brand Daily Beast raised for his own podcast.
And for a while it seemed that is the way forward. But then kind of brands got together and brands again became more solid than individuals. Uh, what do you see this as a pendulum? I'll keep going this way, that way. Is there a consolidation of individuals into brands who will then sustain media and journalism?
Because clearly the model is struggling the world over.
Santosh: No, I, I think the move towards individual, I, I find that inexorable, I mean, in some form there may be ups and downs. Mm-hmm. But fundamentally, if you look at the other stuff that is happening around us, all institutions have, are, have, are losing credibility in some form or the other.
And, and you saw that in the us you know, when, you know, under attack from Trump how, uh, you know, media institutions you thought were solid, suddenly you found that they were, you know, not solid at all and they were [00:09:00] amenable to being bullied and being blackmailed. And so therefore, I think over a period of time, the idea that institutions are fundamentally susceptible and are, uh, you know, to political penetration, I think that idea, I think is taking root on the other hand, individuals, you know, and in any case, in all of these, a lot of these institutions were built on the back of, in, uh, you know, individuals.
But they, they, they found it worthwhile. Because of the economic model that, you know, you couldn't earn money on your own. I mean, there was no organized way to do so. Today there is a way that you can do so. You can have direct, uh, you know, a source of income, uh, and the fact that, you know, you have a brand which is the individual brand.
So to my mind, I mean, if I look at, uh, the overall movement, I would say that institutions are struggling, uh, to sort of retain credibility, to resist, uh, pressure. As against that individuals have relatively more freedom as of now to go their own way. So I do think that my own sense is that, uh, you know, ups and downs, not withstanding the longer [00:10:00] term sort of, uh, movement is towards individuals.
Abhinandan: And I'll just correct his name is Andrew Sullivan, not McMillan my,
Santosh: okay.
Abhinandan: Absentmindedness with names continues. Uh, what do you make of the southern media landscape? 'cause we discuss English and Hindi ad nauseum, but you know, each state in the south. The overwhelming majority of the people are watching, whether it's Tamil, Alam, Canada Media, is there some sort of, because traditionally, at least in Tamil Nadu, and I think even Karnataka, most media brands are owned by political parties or the affiliates or relatives.
Is that changing, you see over the last few years and going forward, it's social media becoming active or it's still dominated by political parties or their voices?
Santosh: I think, I think Tania will obviously be the far better person to answer this because she has, I think, a much, obviously a much, uh, deeper understanding of this.
But my sense is that, um, that, I mean, there, there is the, the stronghold that, that, you know, traditional brands have, [00:11:00] I think is is somewhat stronger there, uh, than it is in the north. That is my sense. And, uh, I do think that while individual voices are rising, perhaps not to the same extent that we see that happening elsewhere in the country.
But here I'll defer to, uh, Dania, uh, on this one.
Dhanya: So I think the south, every state behaves very differently. Mainstream and legacy media still holds a lot of influence on how people think. People look at issues, whether it's newspaper or television. In fact, uh, we are trying and do a story about a television channel, which is coming up in Kerala now, which is funded by a Congress leader in another state.
And I'm wondering who's gonna watch one more television channel? Malam, there are already some 10, 24 hour Malam channels and one more is coming. Uh, so there seems to be consumption of news heavily, but when it comes to social media, every state behaves differently. For example, Telegu, I would say, has minimal, um, independent media online.
Which one is to had come for the media. There are very few names like that. There is [00:12:00] manager, there are very few people online who are doing it. Con Karnataka is even lesser, right? Uh, yeah. There are smaller medias like, um, Tiina. Yeah.
Pooja: But there are also individual, um, like, uh, educators, right? People who worked for decades.
They have started their own, uh, YouTube channel. For me, that actually is the real hope in that sense. But also if you've seen, uh, in Karnataka though, the mainstream media is heavily compromised. They don't go as far as the English and the Hindi Media Republic. Even in, in Canada, there is Republic Canada.
And while on larger issues, they are right. Uh, they don't toe the line of BJP on everything. They're heavily critical of BJP in many ways. And they don't go after the Congress like Indian, uh, English, Shannons do. So that, but I think
Dhanya: that's also an insulation, right? Because these people think that in regional language, if you do reporting, eventually.
More the which are not going to know, therefore we can do
Pooja: what we want. Yeah, that
Dhanya: too. But also it is a showing of the, they've read the people's
Pooja: mood as well. Yeah, that is true. That you can't
Dhanya: just [00:13:00] be pro bj. So I think not much changes in 2025 a's more or less the same, uh, newspaper. But I think there is also a realization now more than ever that certain things are not covered.
Like Therum issue in Tam Nado for example. I see there's a realization now that this media covers it like this, that media covers it like that. So there is uh, there is more of polarization happening for sure. But other than that, not a big change this year, I feel.
Abhinandan: Manisha, you've been talking about this forever through nuisance.
What do you make of it?
Manisha: So actually for me, what's been quite amazing to talk this year is the speed at which an influencer can arrive on the scene and crash. So if you're comparing legacy media brands versus an influencer, and I'm speaking more in terms of news consumption. I'm pretty amazed by how ruthless the internet can be in making you a big brand, a person, an individual, a big brand, and then also bringing you down within six months.
We've seen that with people like say bare Biceps,
-: who the
Manisha: Toast of Town last year, [00:14:00] interviewing cabinet ministers, you know, entering into spaces that journalists traditionally had and complete crash this year, to the point that there are no views. And I myself observe a lot of, uh, people within this, you know, influencer news, content, infotainment kind of space who come with great speed and then disappear with even greater speed.
So I think the ruthlessness of internet is quite something and that's. That is something that traditional brands like say TY, even though their suspicion or their cynicism, the crash and burn isn't there at times of India can still sustain itself in terms of its brand or what it can do. And I think for this, for me this year, it's been quite interesting to note what big brands can do when they put their reporting might behind it.
Like we've been talking about this, I've been telling you about this for a while now. Thatt OI, doing two pages on pollution in Delhi has been fantastic for me. They've done some of the best stories on pollution. They have the wherewithal to do it. I mean, they [00:15:00] can put 10 reporters on a beat and they have a keen understanding, I guess, of what their readers interested in.
An urban English audience may not be interested in a lynching somewhere or attack on, you know, somebody in ur, but they are interested in the quality of air that they're breathing. So in terms of trust and influence and setting discourse. Influencers are definitely there and individual brands matter, but I think there's no method to how they rise and how they fall.
And I feel there's increasing, increasing skepticism among people on individual brands. Also, we saw that with the curly tails response that we've got. We did a story on curly tails where we explained how a company was paid six to talk, talk up all the government schemes that has had. I mean, just the feedback that we are getting on that story.
So many people are now curious about the influencer, the individual brand. Are they really neutral? Are they really giving us information that is um, correct. And this is more so for influencers in the food and health category.
-: Mm.
Manisha: You know, because I think [00:16:00] people tend to consume more of that on the internet.
So I don't know. I don't think legacy can still get that kind of, uh. I mean, I think there's still a lot of flux in the space of trust on a bigger brand versus a, versus individuals.
Dhanya: I just want to add something. So I was actually talking about independent media, which is journalists running YouTube channels, et cetera, right?
Mm-hmm. But what Manisha's talking about are influencers, and that is very high. Even in the southern languages, there are so many influencer on YouTube channels. Smaller, smaller establishments, which like, for example, Tala or even the, the leap judgment. There are so many critical stories, which I think these guys gave more importance and that is how the public got to know about it.
And yeah, there is definitely gonna be critical view, right? But I realized, like when I go meet my aunt, she lives in Kochi. She lives in this old age, uh, retirement home. She constantly consumes news, but she's no longer consuming it from any news channel. She watches these YouTube channels, which have daily [00:17:00] bulletins, which have discussions, and I'm like.
I'm puzzled and baffled by some of the stuff they say, but she is like, no, that's true. Because it's also about consistency, I feel. And these guys also have become very consistent. People are now rolling daily bulletins. They have daily discussions. It's no longer just one video, you pop and you disappear.
They also have some discipline. So I think on one end, like Manisha said, there is crash and burn, but there are some of the others who are influencers have realized the, the, um, that credibility is also built with consistency. Health influences
Pooja: are big, I think across southern languages. Same in the No, right?
Yeah. The doctors come and they, they talk about different issues every day. They have another very interesting thing. They're very accessible, right? So every now and then they go into these programs as chief care. So there is this, oh, we've seen this guy. He is very credible. He talks very nicely, so they trust them much more.
Same with, I think Swamiji is an astrologers, unfortunately, that is also a huge economy. But as far as health
Abhinandan: is concerned, even the worldwide data says that, [00:18:00] which, uh, Google had presented in their last conference in Delhi, which I attended, uh, in America specifically for Gen Z. And the post Gen Z, whatever they're called, their first engagement with news is through health columns or health articles.
That is their first actually entry point, which is why a lot of these large, uh, news organizations in the West are buying out health platforms and health, uh, newspapers, et cetera, because that's the way they actually get Gen Z into consuming news. But Santos, what, what do you make of all that you heard?
Manisha: Just wanna add one small thing. This is a kind of thing that I think. Organizations and institutions ability to stand up after a scandal is stronger than an individual's ability. I think Yeah, Ivan,
Abhinandan: to come to the business side of that, but yeah, I, I wanna, uh, just get the brand
Santosh: aspect. So, no. So I think that's true.
I think, you know, by its very nature and institution can protect itself, has, you know, many more safety walls than an individual. An individual is much more vulnerable that way. You know, a faster rise and faster fall is the nature of the beast. The organization [00:19:00] is, is by virtue of having so many people and having history, having legacy, uh, is, is uh, you know, slower to get affected, uh, than individuals.
So, I mean, to me that makes a, a complete sense. I think it's true. I think overall what I find really interesting is this just the phenomenon of influencers and how, uh, in, you know, influential they've become. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, uh, in the sense that, uh, if you were to look at, I mean, just structurally the idea that, you know, knowledge came to you from pulpits, it came to you from these.
Established credible places and you know that the flow of knowledge in the past was always mediated, regulated, and handed down to people. And so, you know, you are always looking up at people who was, who are telling you stuff to now, where you are actually looking sideways to people like you who's telling you stuff.
And, and to my mind, you know, that shift that has happened, uh, again, there are issues of trust, there are issues, but at the same time, relatability versus trust. I think that is a kind of an access on which you will see this kind of play out. The influencers are [00:20:00] much more relatable. They use context of lives that are much more similar, that are, you know, which feels like they are speaking, uh, of a context like mine.
And so whether it comes to health, whether it comes to beauty, whether it comes to fashion, whether it comes to politics, there is a sense that, you know, this person goes through the same kind of stuff I do and therefore, you know, what they are saying is more immediately applicable to my context. I mean, there is that sense.
There is also the sense of course, that it is an individual and the role of Western interest. And so, but that is a given now that I think any form of representation, uh, today that we see on the internet. Suspect. And so, I mean, to me that is not a, that doesn't distinguish between legacy brands and individuals.
That is a given. But I do think that this whole idea of influencers and, and the way knowledge is moving and the way, you know, we are kind of responding to things is a fundamentally new way that, that, uh, you know, it is moving, you know, moving sideways rather than from top to down. And I think that is a, that is absolutely fascinating in terms of how that shift has, [00:21:00] uh, happened.
Abhinandan: I think there are two specific aspects of this. One is how much you are consumed and two, how sustainable can you make your operation? And I think on both these one, uh, thing that probably is not scrutinized enough, purely because it's not the visible side of the media business is costs. And in that sense, uh, you know, a lot of the YouTube channels are former, very well known journalists.
I don't wanna take specific names, but they're friends of mine and Manisha. They've come and spoken to us and told us about their struggles of how running the YouTube channel, the pluses and minuses of being in an organization. Institutional protection. One is the pressure of frequency. When you're one person, it's very hard to go out and report.
Uh, for example, Ravi doesn't go out and report anymore. It's just physically and it's. It's impossible for him. Uh, so that's one aspect which I think influencers can't report. Like [00:22:00] organizations who have reporters can. Uh, and I'm just talking about the output here. You know, I'll just come to the cost aspect of it.
Second, the institutional protection, um, especially in India where the state comes after you. So fighting those cases, et cetera, can be extremely stressful. For example, if Manisha's editorial had had to look at all editorial and similarly, you know, like GNA is handling and or I'm handling that aspect, if they had to every day BC we just received another major legal notice two, three days ago, if you had to do that and look at what you're putting out.
It can come really, it, it'll become unsustainable. Uh, and third, I interviewed someone last week and we'll putting out that interview next week. He's written a book. Uh, he was the chief marketing Officer, Apollo Tires, I think between nineties or eighties, two thousands. And it's a story of how. Struggling brand became the market leader in many segments of tires, you know, the truck drives, et cetera.
And one thing he said is a lot of businesses don't focus on costs. They just see sales ca, but I profit cas, but I costs can be cupped [00:23:00] down big time. And I think what Legacy media's trick they're missing is purely that real estate costs. If you see the media city that Republic has built, all that industries, you do not need real estate that size to run a media organization.
With that you can actually break it up into 500 cubicles of different people and, and have a larger impact. I think it is just the lethargy and momentum of legacy that this is how business is done in so much space, in such big offices, in such big studios with so many cranes that is actually, you can, I think you can just cut down costs by so much to make it sustainable.
So sustainability and having views are two completely different things and as far as influencer are concerned, you know, whether it is, uh, drove or Mohawk monal or curly tales. One day they're gonna give an explainer about how Mount Everest is growing or shrinking. One day they'll give an explainer about how electoral bonds work.
One day they'll give an explainer about how there is too much sugar in your Coke. You see it, it's just you get views and then you can [00:24:00] move into any direction. But hardcore reporting, I think, can only be done by organizations. So I think the trick to survival is how you manage your costs and how you manage your ground reporting.
Santosh: Yeah, but I mean, but what I would say is that I, I take that point, uh, that there is a certain institutional, uh, ability to kind of handle hard news on a regular basis that cannot be matched, uh, by individuals. Uh, you know, uh, that extent is true, but also this thing about the fact that today they'll do a story on x and tomorrow they'll do, and y.
We consume, see, the, the, the, we have to acknowledge that the consumption of news has totally changed, right? So there is no, so therefore p we are consuming news like that.
-: Mm-hmm.
Santosh: I mean, right now I'm, I'm my, on Twitter one tweet is on something, the other is on a band. The third thing is on some film star doing something.
I'm consuming news like that. I'm not consuming news in an organized way like I used to in a newspaper. The front page is all the international news and the big stuff, and the middle page is the sanctum, sanctum where editors [00:25:00] kind of, you know, give their yarn. We don't now, the world doesn't, there is no nine o'clock news, which was the appointment viewing that, that we went for.
So yes, what you, I buy about costs, because I think it all comes from the same place. News has fundamentally changed in character. It has changed, you know, the news landscape has changed so much and legacy forms do not have the agility or the flexibility to adapt to it. And, and, and the worry I have is that when Legacy Media says.
But we are relevant and we will continue to be relevant because of A, B, C, D, and E. Some of those are true, but a lot of that is simply an inability to to, to sort of come to terms with a complete new.
Pooja: I think Legacy Media has realized the potential of having influential brands. So if you've seen India today and, uh, news 18 to a large extent, they've tried to create these mini brands out of their reporters and anchors, and they make them do podcast dish reportage.
I mean, democratic news to, as they call it, is it's far sickle in [00:26:00] my opinion. But that said, that is their attempt to reach out to that kind of crowd. And also, many of their anchors have been asked to go on Instagram, talk about certain things that are softer, and they think that younger people can relate to much more.
Dhanya: I agree with Mr. Desai that, uh, there is, there is so much of, uh, lack of agility in the media. They're not able to keep up with what is happening outside the legacy media or even independent media. Right? I don't think we are agile enough to keep, uh, making changes. And I disagree with Abana in one thing. I don't think any of these influencers are trying to be a rep, a replica of the media, or they're trying to replace us in any way.
They're not bothered. They don't wanna report. They don't want to delay daily reporting. Their function is something else in this world. So they're not looking at, okay, I'm gonna be reporting daily and putting facts out there. So many stories, right? We do. And then like electoral bond for example, we haven't slept for days when the bond, uh, data came.
We were all looking through it and then somebody will discover it [00:27:00] on a through video. But the point is about distribution, right? He's not claiming to be looking at that. So I don't think they're looking at replacing us at all. But the, the problem is there will come a time when people will start thinking like with the Curly Tales, uh, story, which news Laundry did, I believe there will come a time when people will think that how much should we believe these influencers?
Because they're not going on facts that they're not actually journalists or they're not disclosing certain things to us. Therefore, that kind of a, uh, discerning viewership is what we need. And I hopefully that is building up because when I go to colleges, one question which comes in every college meet I go to is.
How do we trust what is a source that we can trust? Because pe, even kids, college kids are so confused as to who to trust, right? So I think that that discerning viewpoint will come at some, at some juncture, where people are like, this influencer, you can take them only for this. This is a, this is a proper journalistic venture and you must take it for this even.
Of course, let's not get into with journalistic, uh, [00:28:00] organization to believe on what, that's the next layer.
Pooja: But I, uh, for me that's a, again, a problem. Many people expect us to compete with a ti Now he can dramatize as much as he wants because he's not sticking to any journalistic standards that we still put on ourselves.
Right? We can't say things by oversimplifying it. I mean, ti is just one example. Regionally, we have so many others and they seem to be more popular because they are more dramatic, they have more, uh, uh, if we smarter look at, they're smarter, but, uh, we can't afford to do that. So we are somewhere in between.
We are trying to compete for that space because we want more younger people to be. Politically aware, not just politics, but politically aware. But, uh, we can't, uh, just say, oh, this happened. Like, the thumbnails are screaming something. The content is something else. Yeah, that's, I think a pitfall.
Abhinandan: I think they're two separate things actually.
Danya, I wasn't saying they want to replace us. I'm saying there's an inevitability to it that they can't report. I'm not saying that they want to report, 'cause I've actually been a panel with Mohawk. Andro is a good friend. They don't want to replace us, I'm [00:29:00] saying. But there's an inev to some who were reporters.
They can't do it. So that, and also I don't think, um, at least from, uh, my point of view of news laundry, I think people like, uh, uh, drove or that parmar guy, they serve a very important function and it's always gonna be the case. Uh, it's, they actually do an explainer in a really smart way. For example, roof started when he was 21, and I interviewed him and I, I don't think I've ever met a smarter 21-year-old in my life.
And this is, I think in 2012 or 13 when I interviewed him first, he was the smartest kid I had ever spoken to. So he clearly has something, but the only difference in him is he acknowledged that I'm not a reporter. He ascribes, this is where the source comes from. Whereas Mohawk and we were on a panel together in the University of Michigan a few years ago, and he kind of saw himself as a equivalent of Sheikha Gupta, and I corrected him on the panel.
I said. My personal views on Sheika, notwithstanding, he has been the reporter. He's on the ground. [00:30:00] You base your commentary on something that someone else has done. Yours will always is secondary information. It'll never be primary and I don't think they want to do primary information, but. The brilliance is how simple can you make it?
Because while oversimplification is a thing, there is something to be said for simplifying a message or a complicated idea or politics for it to be consumed by a larger audience and and that is politics and in a sense that is news.
Manisha: I think is a great example because, you know, if you look at the story broken by Indian Express, J Maju, but that story really takes life through influencers from HA and Rahan.
Those are the guys who pick it up and then really kind of made us story people to care. So what's those was saying about relatability that matters. And I think it's really sad that legacy brands with all their, uh, heft reporting, Hef, their, you know, expertise and knowledge domain are not investing in doing what an influencer can do with their own story.
But I [00:31:00] guess it comes from the space that we, if something becomes too big, we can buy it up main business as a newspaper and advertising and that. I mean, I think they're looking at it from the point of view what their big business is and to point. Brands are trying to do it legacy brands, but the idea, I mean, there's such less thinking into understanding what works on the internet that most editors owners think that simply putting a podcast, Mike in front of you is what's gonna make you relatable and watchable.
That's the innovation that everyone's doing. Let's put a podcast, Mike and do what we are doing. But that's not it. Like the way, in fact, if you look at reels and everything that worked today, they're the most rough, unedited kind of reels that go viral on Ara. At least whatever I've seen. There's no slickness to it.
It's just how you talk and make yourself relatable. And actually also the fact that you come from a community that's impacted by it. Like in the case of arra, you are from haa. You care about, you know, like every other person that lives around Arra. So there's also that relatability of this person talking about things [00:32:00] that matter to us.
But it's a big missed opportunity to my mind for like brands, because it is often the stories that they do that viral on the internet. So the knowledge is pretty much what they have. It's just that they're unable to make it relatable or reach a wider audience.
Abhinandan: Also, I think 'cause they are general Dufu characters.
I mean, like I, I've seen go of SAS piling on like, dude, I'm looking at you. I'm like, dude, like if there's, there's dumber content and there's smarter content, you cannot be a bad version of being dumb and a bad version of being smart. No one fucking wants to do that shit. Yeah. And just put a mic
Manisha: in front of you.
Pop. That's my concern. I mean that. So, I mean
Abhinandan: there has to be something you can't just, even that quote unquote democratic newsroom, I feel kind of bad for Raj, the, everyone shouting in the middle of that. And also I personally think it was a poor copy of hafta. You know, 'cause we used to sit together when Han Manish, all of us used sit together.
They started that shortly after. I, sorry. You know, if you, if it wasn't, it was [00:33:00] original idea. It, the shit original idea. You can at least say that we tried to rip something off. It didn't work. But it's, it's a really, you know, dumb show. Uh, it's unfortunate, but I wanna get to Santos on how the advertising game has changed.
But before that, our friends from Bangalore, could you tell us about this hate speech, bi Karnataka, what it means, what is the implication of it being passed, et cetera. Any rules to follow? I
Manisha: think what it's like, what's the definition of hate crimes and hate speech?
Dhanya: Yeah. So that is the bit of a sticky point, right?
They are defining both hate speech and hate crime. Then they're adding hate speech under hate crime. So there's a separate definition then hate speech comes under hate crime. See there are lots of people who believe that such a litig, such a law is very important. That hate speech has to be defined separately.
But this is very, um. I don't know. It's a slippery slope. Not only that, it's too large in scope. It's too large in scope, I think. Um, which is why lawyers also have been pushing back saying that this is not a good [00:34:00] example. And it has, I think, 10 years if you are a repeat offender, which is perhaps the only reason why they're trying to bring this bill so that they don't have to follow the Kumar guidelines and arrest people and put them in jail, at least for a few days if they have done hate speech multiple times.
Um, I don't know. The, the Congress seems to, uh, have been saying, I mean, I've gone to many events where congress leaders are saying that we are going to discuss this with all stakeholders, but nobody's aware of who these stakeholders are that they have spoken to. I'm sure that, um, there will be litigations against the bill very soon and rightfully so, it at least some of the classes will be struck down.
Yeah. Uh, I just wanna add one thing, AB and then, uh, and maybe Mr. Dei, I can add to it. I see this sha you are talking about, um. You know how to run sustainability and all that. Right? I think one thing which we've seen in 2025 is a lot of litigation against independent YouTubers, and one thing which stands out is the Sham Singh versus Isha Foundation case where Sham had put out [00:35:00] these videos.
It's a story that we also had done, but I don't wanna get into how he did the story and how we have not got any. Case because there, there's certain procedure that we go through while putting out a story. Right. Anyway, he's fighting that case, but I believe that's very crucial. The fallout of that or, or eventually what will happen in court will also determine how far YouTubers will go when taking, uh, taking up issues or when targeting individuals or cult or, you know, political parties.
I think what the outcome of this case is gonna be very important for the community.
Pooja: But just a, a quick
Manisha: aside on the, and I was also this year on copywriting. Yeah. That Tuesday is there.
Pooja: I was saying that on the hate speech, uh, bill now, which has been passed, the thought came right after Congress formed the government because of course, you know, it was a congress government that came with such a huge majority, and the guarantee schemes were targeted.
There was a lot of misinformation including by so-called mainstream media, English media. So that is when I think they [00:36:00] realized that, okay, we need something stronger to counter this. While, yes, there were victims of, uh, misinformation, disinformation, a lot of deliberate, uh, distortion of what was being done here, Congress is, should be used to it.
Ideally, the way they went about it is not very different from what BJP is. It's a very knee jerk reaction. They've spoken to people. Yes, they've consulted people, but they didn't do anything to change the clauses. That's where they went wrong to.
Abhinandan: Sorry on the other bill. Yeah, but in fact on that it's consistent with irrespective which parties in power, they phrase their acts and their bills and their laws as vague as possible to give maximum, uh, you know, discretion to the bureaucrat.
Because bureaucrats, the same bureaucrats drafted, I remember 66 A, which, you know, a couples was the minister when that was introduced, which was struck down by the Supreme Court actually. But section 66 A had the word annoy. If I put out something on my social annoys somebody. They can [00:37:00] complain to that ministry and the minister, uh, defam that I said, what's the point of courts if you, now I want to ask Al if annoyance is enough.
And those days he was on this poetry writing thing. If you remember, his poetry book was released by or someone. And whenever you are minister, basically
ab his wife had a big concert here. Now Amta Ves is the new toaster. So when you're in past, suddenly your poetry, your wife's music, everything becomes, you know, legendary. But I said, if annoyance is reason enough, any poetry lover would put couple civil permanently in prison for the crap poetry used to put out on Twitter.
Those three line haiku type things. It was like really kaku haiku.
It's the vaguest of language is consistent with all laws framing in India to give maximum discretion on how it can be used against who. Uh, but, uh, you know, Santos, anything on this, uh, please feel free to say about my specific question to you is, as someone [00:38:00] who has observed. The advertising landscape and the media buying landscape.
Like, I remember when I set up my production in 99, um, uh, what do you call, um, ad agencies were so big, whether it was Linta, whether it was mec, me, what was it? Mudra, McCann McCann Mudra. LTA, HT A, sorry, whatever it was called. Uh, I mean now, now they, I think 10, 12% operations, uh, you know, p kakar, three Crow, two Crow ads.
Today, there are hardly any work for producers. Hardly any media buying has completely changed. Building brands has completely changed those big hhy under the waterfall, you know, uh, insurance companies, you know, like one ad cost as much as a small budget film. How has media buying changed? How has building a brand through advertising changed and how has, you know, positioning your brand through?
I mean, we will never say akaka again, I'm guessing.
Santosh: Yeah, probably not. Uh, I think fundamentally [00:39:00] what change is the media form, right? I mean, you, you had aggregate media. You had media that was mass media and, and therefore you had mass campaigns. Uh, and overall, as with the coming of digital, that is fragmented into so many pieces that the whole landscape has changed.
So, so therefore, leading brands now is not, you don't have the clout of television because it doesn't get the kind of viewership yet. You don't have the kind of confidence in the fact that if you put out your, uh, you know, advertising message there. It'll be seen widely enough, uh, or it'll be seen frequently enough, uh, because again, because of fragmentation.
So fundamentally that is a starting point and that has had a cascading effect of, of several kinds. One is that if you were to look at advertising it barely, there was a time when advertising was a form of popular culture and it capture zeist. I know. And you could read what was happening in the world, look at advertising and how it was changing.
Today that is not the case because advertising has become peripheral. I mean, most of the, the creative energy in a sense, if you wanna get a sense of what people are thinking, how they're behaving, you go [00:40:00] to reels. You know, you try and sense short form video, YouTube, that it gives you a much better sense of, of you know, how people are thinking, what they're young are doing, what are they excited by?
Advertising, which used to be a form that gave you that doesn't do that anymore. Even in terms of commercially. Therefore, the money has gone to the platforms. The people who are actually making money are the Googles and Facebooks world. Mm. Because, you know, all advertising now needs to be funneled through them and therefore the bulk of the control comes there.
Also, the grammar advertising has changed because become a tickle is measurable. It is, uh, you know, granular, you know, because you can reach every person where he, she might be, you are able to target. So therefore it has all become very. Mechanical and technical and from, you know, human stories and big canvas stories about given way to these small, what is called performance marketing is really that reaching the person when you are scrolling, if you can give them offer, uh, you know, then you will convert to buying.
Because what has happened is that the market has moved to your phone. [00:41:00] Otherwise, you know, you saw an ad and then one day you went to the shop to buy something. And so therefore you have to, you know, pack something in and, and make sure that the story was powerful enough for you to remember when you actually got round to shopping.
Today, the, the two things coexist. You see something, you don't have to tell a big fancy story, you to give them a shop. Clear pointed message to make them do what you want them to do. So fundamentally it has, it has become narrow, it has become, and as a consequence, all the big agencies, et cetera, are in trouble right now.
There's a major reorganization when one agency network bought up one another. Lots of brands that were legacy brands, hero brands, I grew. When I, uh, joined the profession, all of them are, most of them have fallen by the wayside. And it's not small independent operators, you know, like you said, with 10, 12 people who have now become the new face independents are, are now, you know, with small sort of, uh, assignments and projects.
Uh, even working with clients has given way to projects, short term projects. So it's a complete [00:42:00] change in the advertising landscape that we've seen, uh, across the board.
Pooja: But I think platforms that offer you ad free, including ours, uh, for a fee has, I'm sure had a huge role because, uh, ads are no longer celebrated or seen as creative.
Right. There is a serious ad avoidance. You can get away without even on, even on uh, uh, YouTube. You can skip ad after over 15 seconds. And what about
Dhanya: ai? Has that impacted the industry?
Santosh: AI is so both what? Both of these, I think, I think, uh, uh, AI. Impacting has started. See, media planning already had become automated.
So it was actually machines talking to machines, right? When you buy something, it's not humans talking to humans, uh, which is what it was when we, uh, when I joined the business, it now machines talking to machine. And that's what AI is going to do. AI is going to, in fact, it is going to increasingly sort of move people towards the fact that I will have an AI agent on my phone, which will talk to an ai ai agent of a business, and between the two of them, they'll figure out something.
So it, [00:43:00] that is a, is is clearly something and which means advertising will become algorithmic. You know, in that sense, one part of advertising will become algorithm. It becomes like an algorithm. It's not really advertising anymore. It, it's, uh, it's uh, it's uh, simply a mechanical kind of an operation that'll, uh, that, that we will, uh, see.
So I do think that. We haven't even seen the full effects of AI play out, but it is getting, you know, a lot of advertising is gonna be impersonal. People in the industry are hoping or are hoping that you will have the opposite effect. Also, that as more and more machines kind of start doing stuff, there will be some room for old style advertising to come back.
But I think that's a fond hope, that's nostalgia more than any really concrete kind of reason to believe that. Uh, uh, so let's see how that plays out.
Abhinandan: But, uh, I'm gonna come back to you, Santos. So just make a mental note of this. I'm gonna ask you for, you know, three or five or four whatever memorable ads that this generation wouldn't have seen, which really stay with you, which really you looked forward to watching those ads rather than [00:44:00] skipping them.
And if anybody else has that. But to that point of, you know, Googles and everything being funneled through them, I think here, much as I dislike him for his emotionally dead brain, um, Elon Musk was a visionary in, um. Saying that I will form that X company that does everything. I think that is what is happening to companies because data is everything.
So whether it's deploying ad revenue, whether it's deploying how your marketing budgets work, whether it's using data to backward integrate and manufacture, who wants what to predict? How demand is gonna move. That everything company that he had predicted is what Amazon, apple, all these AI companies, they're everything companies and economists had actually done a piece that, uh, in the us you know, the top 50 companies used to change every few years, the rate at which the biggest company in the world would suddenly be knocked off was really high, like from [00:45:00] Enron to WorldCom.
Those are because of scandals, but even otherwise, organically with these big seven, the Amazon, apple, um, whichever those seven are, yeah, Tesla, et cetera, it is highly unlikely and we'll be able to catch up with them because everything is data. So they'd become everything companies. And when that happens, I think that entire thing of expecting companies to be specialists in X, Y, Z is gonna be wiped off.
There'll be very small independent organizations and these eight or 10 companies that do everything from making films. To making your manufacturing to even eventually I'm sure digging for oil, which is also what Geo is doing. I mean, from being a far a petroleum company, it's gonna become data company, cellular company Reliance will be become the everything company as well, Adani.
And for that, the alliance of political and industrial leadership is gonna become absolute. And the, the counter view of that has to yet to emerge at how you actually break that. And maybe Chomsky done that had he not spent all his time on [00:46:00] Epstein Island. But, uh, uh, yeah, sorry. She was saying,
Santosh: well, I think that's a fair point actually.
That's a, that's a good point. And I interest, actually, if you think about it, you had the old style GL. Who you were, you know, in some senses, everything companies, the balls in, in, in, uh, Korea, but their source of expertise was essentially capital. And, and, uh, you know, uh, because they had access to capital and, and distribution, which is what actually made them, you know, uh, uh, able to do more than one thing.
Even in unrelated areas today, the commonality is data, as you've said, right? So now if you have data capture and you are sitting on top of data, given the fact that now digital means that each film, so making a film is also a digital activity. Producing news is also, I mean, so what digital does is that allows you to do pretty much anything.
So, and, and now with AI coming in, it is possible to. To sort of, you know, all, everything can get converged far more easily than, than, uh, it could earlier. So I do think that that's a, that's a fairly compelling [00:47:00] kind of a vision, uh, compelling, not in, in the most desirable way, but in terms of a persuasive, let me say, vision, uh, of the future, what you just laid out.
Abhinandan: Right. Manisha, you wanna comment on this before we get to which ads are memorable for Santhosh and we say bye to him? No,
Manisha: just, um. What Santos was saying about going over reels to understand the spirit of the times is so true because this year I remember when I wanted to understand what was happening in Nepal, the Gen Z protest there, it was primarily through reels that I got a sense of what that country was feeling.
Operations Ur. I remember the kind of reels that were coming in from Pakistan coming that was saying that, okay, India saying that they've taken Karachi, take it. You'll have no electricity, you'll have no water, you'll run away. You know that kind of how depressed that country is and the sense of despondency in that country because their most popular leaders been in jail for about a year and now.
So all those kind of things that you wanna understand about the country and your neighbors. Also, for me this year has been through reels, but I wonder like, so [00:48:00] for ads and sometimes is very right, like why we feel so dearly towards some of those ads we've grown up is because it captured some aspect of our culture.
You know, the Dairy Milk ad where the woman runs across the field, it's. Empowering for a woman to kind of openly express her love and then, you know, go dancing in this male dominated kind of thing. So it spoke of the culture of that time or aspirations of that time. And you can look back right on and again, on reels, there is so much nostalgia about olden ads.
Like she, Mary Luna, I was seeing recently, there was a reel about how it was an ad for women empowerment. You know, women saying, tell me Luna, and you know, going to work doing things 10 years from now, if I wanna look back at the spirit of the current times, these deals won't really work because, because the frequency which they come and go and the frequency at which things change on the internet.
Mm. I wonder like for lasting understanding of this generation, what will we look back? And I wonder if all that nostalgia do brands think, [00:49:00] for example, music videos went away. Mm. But then you do have some pop stars today, like a honey single will invest in a music video. 'cause it's sort of now interesting to come out with one music video.
So do you think brands would also see some value in building a nice kind of a story around an ad and the old school style? Because there is nostalgia for it and also space. In a way that maybe reels cannot.
Santosh: No. So I do think that, you know, that, you know, nostalgia is such a powerful emotion, right? And, and, and I, I do think that brands will try and plump that in some form or the other, but truly, you know, it works best when it is organic.
Actually. That is the, the, the, you know, uh, I mean it is when it comes back, not because brands have done it, but because there are people who like it and they want to bring it back and they create, uh, you know, something. So I, I do think that the powerful kind of a way of doing this would be through, through an organic kind of a playback of, of nostalgia brands actually, when they, they screw it up, you know, when they try to do this, you know, they, they, they don't do a great job of this because they're too [00:50:00] concerned with what their immediate needs are and the narrow needs are, and the ability to kind of just celebrate this, you know, just the fact that people have these fond memories.
Uh, I don't, I haven't seen brands do that, and I haven't seen them think about doing this so far, at least.
Abhinandan: Puja, what makes a brand memorable according to you?
Pooja: No, uh, just, I was just adding before that, you know, who's watching these ads? That's also a factor, right? Most of the people who watch ads in their entirety are watching it on television because they, you don't have much of a choice to move away from it, and young people are not, I don't know, the last time I actually switched on TV and watch something.
And in the digital space, like nobody's paying attention to ads to even remember. So nostalgia is kind of lost. That's perhaps why not. People are not even spending much on, uh, making ads. On your point of what is memorable, I was thinking, um, dairy milk of course is one fairy call though. Um, it was funny and all of that witty, fair, very quick, fair call, all of that, uh, they went to different parts of the country and very subtlely spoke about who's attached to whom, the concept of attachment.[00:51:00]
I thought that was interesting. So that's one thing I remember.
Dhanya: So coincidentally today, morning I watched a video, uh, on bar's, channel Mojo tv. I was watching this show that she had done with a journalist colleague, uh, RA Rachel Chi. Uh, the plane crash in Gura. So before the video starts, there's a Franklin Templeton ad, and for some, for a second, my brain like could not register because I was, I think, uh, I was not logged into my YouTube.
It was Newsman's YouTube where the ads are still there on the, like, on the backend, right? So it was an ad. I'm like, I was thinking when was the last time I actually saw an ad? Because everywhere I've paid to not watch ads and I don't know how nostalgia works. Like when we see some movies, right? There are lots of these Maria movies where they'll have all dialogues of Mohan la in the eighties and everybody's laughing.
If you take t they will be like joking about old Vijay movies and the kids now don't get it. I, I don't know how long will this nostalgia thing work? I mean, I don't know what is nostalgia for this generation 10 years later. Also,
Pooja: people say if you grow up in the [00:52:00] nineties, like back in the day in nineties or eighties, so yeah, the Mt V people are on
Dhanya: a trip.
Right. Putting this nostalgia reads after a point of time, I, I think it's tiring. It's fun. One once or twice. Yeah. It was a very crucial part of our growing up. We learned how, I know about how long, okay. I mean, okay. My first chin was, was, yeah. My first ever call to a show was at Nickel Chin Show. It was very popular calling because, and he was from Bangalore and he was a rage in the city.
Manisha: No, you told me that. You called him up for that show and
Dhanya: sent a letter. I actually wrote a card, you know, you had to send card. So I made a card. I sent it to, and they select like 10 people every show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was that person on one of the shows. Can you imagine? And you're still dissing MTV.
I'm not dis empty. I, I think nostalgia after point of time just like puts me off. Uh, and I feel like there's no common nostalgia, right? Like, I don't have the same, my son, I don't know, 10 years later, what is nostalgia for Taylor Swift. But that's the thing about nostalgia. It's always
Abhinandan: different for different people.
It's, you know, it's, it's time. I don't know,
Dhanya: do we have it?
Pooja: Like, I don't, I don't say sticking to one thing. I think we [00:53:00] are perhaps the last generation to hold onto this like IGN nation and I have a lot of Bangalore nostalgia because we grew up here. Cake, uh, exhibitions or certain places, you know, co corner house, lake view, all of that.
That's still, that's all still there. Yeah, but it's still nostalgia. I
Abhinandan: just think that puja, you are too young to be talking like an uncle, uh, of, you know, the next generation will not know Nost star an emotion. And every generation will know that emotion, like the generation above us said, I romance the Ari.
There used to be romance. You guys don't know is romance for you. It's only sex every, but every generation knows romance. Every generation, no nostalgia will be different. Maybe different things will come up and emotion will never be redundant. Every generation feel the same toilet. SA
be, but
Santosh: go ahead. Like, you know, it was very weird. You know, my, I remember going to Hong Kong, I think to the Disneyland there and, [00:54:00] and my two daughters at that time who are still young. For them. It was like, it was nostalgia for them. I couldn't fathom it. To me it was like grass commercial sort of an enterprise, you know, which was completely hollow and plastic.
But they grew up, I mean, I didn't recognize to what extent, you know, their childhood, uh, unfortunately was peppered with so much Disney reference, but it was, for them, it was like an excavating their past and they were like, oh, this and that. It was, it was eyeopening, you know, to see, you know, and so every generation Absolutely.
You know what a redundant say, every generation finds people are now nostalgic about old Nokia phones. Yeah. Right. You are not nostalgic about Pacman, you know, uh, you know, so you've already started getting nostalgic about digital stuff, right? Uh, so that's what the, the
Dhanya: Blackberry phones. Yeah.
Santosh: Blackberry phones, exactly.
So we did some work in fact, with this new generation Gen Alpha. And it's, at one level it is terrifying because, you know, the, they process the world in a completely different way, even as against the slightly older Gen Z. It's a different, it's a different ball game. They speak differently, they [00:55:00] process the world differently.
But equally they're the, you know, when you talk about what do you want to be, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a, you know, so it, it's very interesting how you have at one level, a completely different landscape at another level. You still have things that are, that, that haven't changed because that imagination hasn't really gone forward.
So, so, you know that, that was, uh, interesting
Manisha: to ask you a question, what do you think was completely different about Gen Alpha and how they process the world? Something that you were shocked by?
Santosh: I think the fact that it is, you know, their visual world, we, I, for instance, their visual world is entirely different.
It is much more fragmented and their ability to process from very unrelated visual material into something which seems to make sense to them. I just found that the way I guess, you know, I, I'm a text generation. I, I totally understand text, right? I don't understand, you know, visually I can't interpret things visually as well as these guys.
I found that when they were looking at anime or when they were looking at, [00:56:00] you know, uh, which is their preferred form, the preferred form, which is highly, so if you look at anime, it is emotionally very intense, but, but it is also, uh, also very dark. Uh, so I just found it interesting that you're 8-year-old and 10-year-old and 12 year olds are consuming complex narratives.
So the cartoon has moved from being a simplistic to Jerry thing to being highly complex deals.
-: Mm.
Santosh: You know? Yeah. Which are, you know, much more kind of, they're, you know, they're dark and, and they involve, you know, themes that are so much deeper and they're effortlessly processing that. Uh, and, uh, which was eye open, I mean, which I thought was strange,
Abhinandan: two or three ads that for you, I imprinted in your mind,
Santosh: starting with, for me, it was the Baja ad, which is, you know, really uncle or grandfather's status.
It turns me, uh, and when I say that Hamara, Baja, uh, that was, uh, an ad I, I remember very well. The, uh, [00:57:00] Cadbury's ad, of course was, uh, the, a fabulous ad. Uh, uh, I loved the, the Fabio, I don't know if you remember the, uh, the South Indian, you know, uh, guy in a ti doing fishing, fishing, fishing, which I thought was, uh, which I remember.
Then there was a, uh, uh, this center fresh, I think ad, which is the barber ad. I dunno if you remember that this is about a barber, that this guy who goes to shop wants a haircut of certain kind and he eats this and it goes, hair goes, right? Yeah.
-: Yeah.
Santosh: I thought was, uh, uh, uh, an amazing ad, uh, the Coca-Cola ads that, uh, you know, was American, uh, those ads.
-: Hmm.
Santosh: Uh, you know, ha I mean, which was probably the last ad I remember. For, for me after that point in time, uh, I stopped, uh, sorry, you were saying.
Abhinandan: No, I'm just, for me, the death of ads is more the death of jingles. I mean, I, all the ads that I recall are heavily jingle dependent, like [00:58:00] whether it was Hawkins City Ji with Nina Gupta Pond, cold cream winters here, the funds begun with pond cold cream.
You know, you've won, uh, the jingles are dead because radio is dead.
Santosh: I think you're strange. The, the ones you've talked about,
I, I change, I have to say, I, I remember them verbatim because it's nearby. Would've got you, you know, nearby washing that min here. That is very,
Abhinandan: and then, you know, all the vial ads. Only vimal because those models were so. Good looking and classy. And sorry to sound boomer and politically incorrect dude models don't look like they used to back in the kitto Givani days and, and the vial models, they look really terrible today.
I mean, I'm, I'm sorry to say, you know, that mothers praise and a ra,
Pooja: you drive malalia away from the country. DJ what happens with jam.
-: Exactly
Abhinandan: right. No Malalia also came [00:59:00] much later. But thank you so much Santos, for joining us. Oh, my
Santosh: pleasure. I
Abhinandan: joined. Uh, but before you go, a recommendation that could end enrich the lives of listeners.
Something they could watch, read, eat, go to experience, anything.
Santosh: So in terms of reading, uh, the, a couple of books that I enjoyed this year, one is the New India by Raul Batia.
-: Mm-hmm.
Santosh: Then there is the anxious generation by Jonathan Ha, who essentially talks about how the digital world is screwing up. Uh, a lot when it comes to young people and, and he advocates this, you know, no devices.
Kind of a, uh, a policy for people, uh, kids up to a certain age. Uh, so that I was, uh, an interesting book in terms of a show I like Pluribus, uh, which I sure a lot of people talked about, which was a yes, which I enjoyed. And, and The Expanse. Well, I'm a science fiction, sort of a, uh, if you haven't seen The Expanse, five Seasons.
Amazing. Right. Thanks
Abhinandan: so much
Santosh: Osh.
Abhinandan: Have fantastic
Santosh: year. Happy New Year. Merry Christmas. Thank you. Happy New Year. Bye-bye. Bye.
Abhinandan: So, Daniel, [01:00:00] uh, Puja, you did a power trip. Um, the emailer that goes out to subscribers on an up sudden turnaround. This is something that is very interesting as this year ends. Are NS being harsh and critical?
Well, I won't say harsh. It is still very mild, but even mildly critical of the BJP. What do you make of it? Are we seeing a different trend emerge?
Dhanya: I want to ask one thing before we start. How many years have you worked with him? 11.
Pooja: Okay. 11. I'm eight. Okay. Now please, what is the question? No, but for me, that is actually one of the biggest laws, uh, this year, uh, lower than even a lot of other trash that, uh, uh, anchors have done simply because the, it tells me that this man can damage this country for years, damage people's lives for years.
He can stoop so low that he will defend even the worst things that this government has done and all it takes for him to be viewed as, oh my [01:01:00] God, this crusader is back. This is AV we love. And all that nonsense is just throw some lollipops at people, you know, it's he'll. Pick the softest target, go after them, and just with great, I can see the restraint.
He'll say PR and all of that. And people are so happy celebrating how a n's u-turn without realizing this is just part of a strategy.
Dhanya: I wanna say I don't think there's a U-turn. Yeah. I think it's very strategic that there are, I mean, it see one at one, um, on one side, you know, I was thinking look at the power of an an go swami, right?
Mm-hmm. The fact that he did two or three such videos has made him the topic of discussion again. And people are happy that he's speaking up for people's issues. I was actually thinking nostalgically that what if he had used this power all along correct. To talk about people's issues, what kind of impact he would've had, but he sort of gave away that completely.
He has not been doing it for many has
Pooja: changed for a lot of money, I [01:02:00] must
Dhanya: say. What about benefits? But the point is, the second he goes back to that, there is so much recognition. There was even, I, I was watching a Malayalam News channel, had a talk show on Orum. That is the level of discussion on the videos, which our numbers done on Ali and, uh, Sanger and all that.
Right? But if you very, uh, if you follow Republic Channel, I mean, I went and checked their YouTube the same time that they were talking about Ali. They were taking the, um, they were supporting the BJ p the UND issue in Tam Nado. He interviewed Guru Mutti, where the Iris's ideolog, where Guru Mutti saying, and Onna himself is saying that, uh, the MK has gone against the court.
That why should they ask for impeachment of this judge taking a very clear ideological line. Then the day when I think everybody was discussing about his, uh, um, anger against Seger, I went and watched one of his primetime shows was about, uh, how the demography of Bombay is changing and the, uh, the population of Muslims in that city is [01:03:00] just increasing.
And he then cite a test survey. So I went and checked. I couldn't find a test survey. Now there was one which was done last year. Which was discredited because of the way it used data and the way it, uh, uh, in fact a lot of uh, uh, people apparently, like a lot of researchers call it Islamophobic survey, suddenly outta the blue there is a discussion on republic on demography and how it is changing.
So I think what has happened is basically deception, whether are three or four, uh, topics which are taken up very good. I mean, those topics have to be taken up and those reels are going viral. And I was very curiously also looking at the social media influencers who are making these reels viral. These are the same guys.
Some four or four ideas are there who are always putting Raul Gandhi videos, who are always putting Pro Congress stuff. So I'm wondering who are they working for now? Mm-hmm. They're the ones who made these reels very popular. See, one thing is they're all numbers back in conversation. There is no doubt about that, but is that something which is going to make him talk about these issues?
I don't think so. Like saying there is a very [01:04:00] emotional thing. Right. The court has
Pooja: actually said it's also low hanging fruit. What is the, it's, it's not a black, it's a black and white issue. Right. I don't know how he could have possibly defended that. I mean, given how what he's done or is he could have, but again.
Uh, from what we've picked up. And we want people to go and read power trip and not give it all away. But the, the thing is, the understanding is that pm o also lets him, uh, you know, uh, leave him steam and then like be this powerful crusader because they don't want that opposition space to be occupied by the Rahul Gandhis of the world.
So if it's a, it's if it's an opposition voice, like who they can control. And he even said that the real opposition is needs not Rahul Gandhi or any other party. I am the real opposition in all of that. So he's, he's somebody that the government can very easily pull back when they want. So on ideological issues, there is complete adherence.
He cannot, cannot deviate. And that's what Danya was talking about on communal issues and the like and other things. He can just go here and there and then people will find him popular again.
Dhanya: But Manisha, have the other anchors changed tune also, or [01:05:00] they're still going by what they were doing.
Manisha: And I think on, see I think a couple of things.
One. The two main issues that he's gone at the government for. One is pollution and one is arras. These issues actually, there's a lot of popular resonance. A lot of people across ideological lines are genuinely angry about pollution, and they're very happy to have BGP questioned on it. And ARRAS is also.
One such issue. So I think he's been very strategic in picking up these two issues because they're actually doing well. And it is precisely on the back of this that he's come back in conversation because there are influences who are talking about these issues who are picking it up again to say that, look, this anchor is also saying the same thing as we are apart from the Congress handles.
It's true that a lot of Congress handles, uh, popularizing these clips, but that I think is because if you can project as a political party, if you can project that the most loyal sort of godi GV is now questioning the government, that means the government is, you know, not strong enough. So I think Congress' [01:06:00] handles are doing it to send the signal that the government is weak, but below is also attacking him.
So that's where that is. But I think as far as why this has happened, one any smart news person and I think all said and done, um, given the talent that we have in television, Arnab is the smartest of all of them. He does understand, uh, what works, at least in terms of audience interest. And pollution have deep interest in people and it is the best way to be relevant for him.
And he has been very relevant over the past one year. We've not talked about him because people are also bored of the same Hindu Muslim thing that he does the same opposition bashing. How much can you get people excited about the same sort of, you know, programming. So it's a good flip. It gets you noticed.
And also it's not high stakes. You're not questioning on electoral bonds. You're not questioning electoral funding. No, they did not even
Dhanya: discuss the Christmas attacks. I'm just looking through the video. I
Abhinandan: was coming to that the Christmas attacks, which should. For me be the story for the week. [01:07:00] Um, and Raj Deep, you know, curiosity to him, he really discusses, he went at them, you know, and that vi uh, BJ p uh, member who told that visually impaired lady that you are like this because you past deeds.
-: Don't
Abhinandan: what a horrible thing to say. And has she been expelled? It's like, I mean, look, fuck the show. Nothing from NP movie. Merry Christmas to everybody, et cetera. That should have been the story, dude. I mean, you riper the videos and of course today they've arrested those guys in a Sam, the four guys who went around vandalizing a school.
But I hope in. I, I don't know if any action has been taken in ripe, but in the Samsung action has been taken. I dunno if there'll be follow up. I wonder if this woman is gonna be expelled. Then that other, uh, woman who went to a park in Delhi, counselor who told that African guy that [01:08:00] how you, I mean
Dhanya: she apologized.
She apologized.
Abhinandan: Yeah. I mean it was a very lame apology's not gonna
Dhanya: the video. No, but I think, I think there has been no discussion about this. The politics itself is missing. Right. For example, Kerala is a state where we, so at least two to three instances. One is, uh, one or two schools had to cancel the Christmas celebrations because the RSS and Bjp who are opposed.
Imagine. Yeah. And where the P is very actively seeking out Christian votes and it is believed that Christian votes is helping them also on the ground. There was another instance in Palkar, my hometown, where a. A kid group of kids, like they were nine year to 14-year-old, they were taking out a carol and I think they were using these ba um, you know, the, the, they were a musical band basically, which, uh, the instruments came from the CPM office.
It was written CPM musical band, uh, instrument or whatever. A drunk BJP guy came and attacked them and they, he broke all the, uh, musical instruments and then the BJP went on rant calling [01:09:00] these young kids criminals who were drunk. Wonderful. So the parents have really turned against them saying that, look, if you have a religious problem and you went against them also, okay fine.
But how can you call these small kids, uh, criminal elements? So there is a lot of discussion, but I dunno, I feel like people discuss for three, four days come next election. The Christian, a lot of the Christians in think Muslims are their enemies. So am my enemy. Uh, enemies. Enemies. Friend. Friend. Yeah. So this outrage is just very short-lived.
Pooja: No, but I want to say this, if this was an attack on Muslims, I feel like it would have been covered more because that is, again, another opportunity to polarize and consolidate Hindus. So even if, if Hindus are attacking Muslims, they will pick it up on these channels world over. They are very, very mindful of the fact that attack on Christians in the Western world will not go well.
And that's perhaps why nobody's talking about it. And if you remember Gura much before Muslims were targeted under Modi, or I think this is even before Modi, uh, Christians were targeted, the Anticon conversion law that [01:10:00] came first in Gura, perhaps first in the country, was keeping Christian conversion into mind.
Muslims became target much, much later on. Yeah. So the, this is, this is brewing for many years, but Modi now cannot afford to have these, uh, attacks shown to the Western world because then it'll be taken very seriously next time he meets support. You know, he can't hug and kiss and with, with what face or even.
Trump will not take it kindly or anybody else,
Dhanya: so that's why they want, but forget Trump and Pope and all that. You want votes here that they can manage. Yeah. You have already in limbs. No, I don't know. That's what I think. How is the Christian community taking this?
Manisha: I, I think that this year they were worse than any other year because usually we have this typical Santa burning kind of stuff, which is almost comical that the Baal and all do.
But this year there was serious kind of, uh, acts of violence here. Yeah.
Abhinandan: Yeah. In large, yeah. Delhi. I mean, I would never imagine this happened in Delhi here, and
Manisha: I was just thinking there's this one video that's really going viral of a Mumbai church po opening with the national Anthem, [01:11:00] and it's beautiful.
It's a beautiful rendition of the national anthem and kudos to them for doing it. But do we celebrate the, I mean, do we sing the national anthem before celebrating the value? Mm.
-: Why
Manisha: is this that burden of, I think minorities also feel this burden. A church has to feel this thing that, oh, we are patriotic.
And if you see the comments and it also like, this is too patriotism. Why do you have to be patriotic in celebrating your own festival
Abhinandan: fashion or to to watch a film? Yeah.
Manisha: Point colors at people like you're gonna watch
Abhinandan: some sea grade film. You have to stand up for the national anthem. What a dumb concept.
Yeah. How we don't
Dhanya: that.
Abhinandan: No, you still do.
Dhanya: When was the last time at a theater? We don't do that anymore, right? I didn't do for cool. No, no, we didn't do, we don't do that anymore. I
Abhinandan: think depends from state to state and cinema to cinema,
Dhanya: really? It's still done in other states here. It's not, there's still
Abhinandan: a thing in many.
Yeah.
Dhanya: Not Delhi.
Abhinandan: They don't play, I dunno about Delhi. But it is a thing in, because that before the Runda, none of those two people didn't stand up and that the whole audience
Pooja: it because it was Durand and that's the kind of crowd Does Durand mean it just sounds like disaster. What? Durand is what? Like, like bombastic?
Abhinandan: Yeah. Bombastic is okay. Right. We'll [01:12:00] get the males, uh, which have been curated by Manisha this time. If you, we take our critique suggestions. And, you know, appreciation from our subscribers very seriously. You can mail us@podcastsatnews.com, uh, or you can click on the link in the show notes below. Window will open up.
Please keep your feedback restricted to one 50 words, so we can include as many mails as possible. If you are a non-subscriber, you have any feedback to give. You can leave your abuse on Tania or Manisha's timeline. Uh, but if you're a subscriber, you can give us your thoughtful critique, criticism, anything through emails, which we do take seriously and entertain.
Or you can email South central@thenewsminute.com. Links to both, uh, in the window below. Yes, Manisha, what emails do you have for us this week?
Manisha: So says hi Hafta team. I was trying to find the last subscriber letter episode and realize it was done long, long ago. Could you clarify what frequency do you record these episodes at?
My concern is if you do it after three, four months, the letters might lose. Lose their context. Keep up the great work team. [01:13:00] We just recorded one.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manisha: Um, last week.
Abhinandan: We try to keep, that should be out. We try to keep between four to six weeks, but I'm thinking we can make it a little more frequent. And I had an idea, which I'll discuss with the producers, that we do it in two shifts in the sense rather than all of us be there, since there are six in-house HTA members, we can do three three.
So we don't have to wait for six weeks. We gotta do it every three weeks because all of us getting together, 'cause it takes two, two and a half hours, it's half a day gone. So we will figure out a more efficient way, do it. But as of now, it's every four to six weeks. Correct? Yeah.
Manisha: Sharma says, with reference to rega, I think poor of this country have once against lost to corporates with reference to governance.
BGP perhaps wants to destroy things so much that they, that any other future government can make things right so that no future government can make things Right. Nishta says, I woke up this morning to a marginally improved a QI largely due to stronger winds dispersing pollution overnight, but the biting cold outside underscored.
What this temporary relief likely came at the cost of many people enduring a harsh winter [01:14:00] night so the rest of the city could wake up to slightly cleaner air. Relying on favorable weather to manage air quality is not only ineffective, it's ethically troubling. At COPI spoke with colleagues working in China and we discussed how Beijing once face challenges similar to Delhi's, winter pollution, land log geography, high vehicular emissions, double burning in surrounding areas.
Delhi needs a similarly deliberate AP approach. A should conduct ward level surveys to understand private vehicle dependence and address it through lower metro fares and reliable last mile connectivity. Schools must mandate bus use and discourage single occupancy cars. Housing societies must provide heating for security staff to prevent waste burning.
I completely agree. Apparently I left and the air really got better in there, uh, in Delhi.
-: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: And, but it's at 200 still like last A QI bus under it was 2 97. So I dunno why people are celebrating.
Abhinandan: Maybe, uh, a subscriber doesn't know as much as, um, Karen Wei, the very celebrated IPS officer because she has tweeted [01:15:00] for the first time my air purifier is healthy.
Thank you. And she has tagged the CM of Delhi and my government. India.
Pooja: My God, if we collectively
Abhinandan: persevere on all fronts of policy, we will improve. I really don't know Ms. P, how you passed the IPS exam, but this sudden last, yesterday we saw this clean air had nothing to do with these three people you've tagged.
Uh, organization. There were stronger wins if in one day they could solve this. I really am blown away by this woman and how she is still called on panels to talk about serious issues.
Dhanya: Can I please plug your. The investigation that we did this year and published in March? Yes. About Kiran be using her friends in the Delhi Police Force to tap her daughter's phone a few year, two decades ago.
But it's still important. Do read the story if you haven't this
Abhinandan: year. Yeah, the link is in the show notes.
Dhanya: I like how Dan's bragging her. Read it like the teacher. No, no. I also wanna say 2025 marked something for me. Like we have put lots of stories behind paywalls. Right. People who can actually afford it will ask you for PDFs.
[01:16:00] PDF. Oh yes. People who can't and they don't. So many people email us saying, rich people, yeah, I don't have a job, but I'm still a subscriber. I'm a student. Can you give me those? People still pay that money and take Yeah. But these rich people, there's this one particular person I'm very angry with who asked for a PDF.
So, um, I'm just saying that thank you to all those people. Um, and I send the subscription link very diligently each time. The
Pooja: pedia, so
Manisha: Kiran is also subscription, says, high NL. Team few observations from a regular listener. First subscriber letters increasingly reflect despair about India and the world. I find it sub surprising given that by almost every measure, we, humans are better off than ever in health, poverty, science and literacy.
People consider adding. Please consider adding good news section to showcase positive development in science, both and other sectors to broaden perspectives. Second, the policy discussions on NL Hafta Feel lopsided. All policies get judged by their best days. New ones get judged by worst case scenarios.
Every policy [01:17:00] has trade offs and both deserve equal scrutiny. Guests often arrive with predictable positions and can't articulate both sides, creating bias rather than nuance. These patterns reinforce each other and it can set higher bar for better discourse. See, azi podcast. I also read the piece. I also read the piece on nothing.
Ka. I have never read a more pointless article masquerading as journalism. Hey, I don't agree. There's no place among the excellent work that NL has done over the years. I don't agree at about. Now, these are letters that came to South Central,
Abhinandan: right
Manisha: re Chatter. She says, congratulations on South Central's 50th episode.
I remember being super excited about South Central's launch back when you discussed it with AB and team at NL hta. My weekends are incomplete without it, and I'm glad to see that you're experimenting with different formats and ideas, such as having Yugen last week as an expert Bravo to you and your cohost.
On that note, I'd also like to congratulate you on your nomination at Reporters on Frontier, and if you do travel to Paris for the [01:18:00] ceremony and we have to catch up or be of any assistance if need be.
Pooja: Oh, by the time this has, this comes out, I, no, no. Award is done. Award is done. Danya didn't go to
Manisha: Paris, so she's very sad.
Says hello to South Central. South Central is a podcast I've looked forward to and listen to since its inception without giving a miss. It's everything that a traditional news podcast program isn't run by a compromised media magnet, north India centric, maness insensitive, et cetera. I can honestly go on and on about how flawed others are in comparison.
The podcast is invaluable for being abreast with the events that transpire back home and make sense of them, and with a nuance perspective nuance. I admire the fact that you have a very diverse panny, even if it sometimes involves the like of a Mohan. This makes sure that you're not pigeonholing yourself and the audience.
Kudos to you, Puja. Suto for the occasional appearance. You should be a frequent panelist and all those who make the podcast possible wish you more success for future episodes. Yay. [01:19:00]
Abhinandan: You think it's too, too volatile a combination with having him and man
Dhanya: at your own risk, at your own risk. See, the point is no.
The, the thing is calling any of them. You have to be really having the data at fingertips because they were just saying actually, even when you have it
Pooja: at your fingertips, you just would keep cutting us constantly.
Dhanya: I was actually, I was amused half the time. I remember after the podcast, Tara and Puja was so stressed out saying that, what happened?
What happened? I said, no, you guys actually came out looking very well because we did oppose him in a lot of, uh, data points. I'll tell you what
Pooja: the problem is. The whole point I think, for me at least of South Central is the gaze, right? We bring a feminist gaze, not just because we are women, but also because of the work that we have done.
I think that one episode was a lot of PTSD, all those uncles, our lives who've told us, oh, you know nothing when you know far, far more than that uncle. But we got the most amount of
Dhanya: letters and even [01:20:00] now people speak about that episode. Yeah, that's true.
Abhinandan: I think one of the dangers of getting people like him, and I remember I experienced that when once we called Sunday Buzay, who, you know back then, his politics, I think's it's.
I dunno, I don't see much of him anymore. But he's changed. They are so used to appearing on the ban times and kind of panels when they come here, they just try to outr everybody. It, it's not a conversation because they're, that is what they're used to. So it kind of defeats the purpose of haha, where you say your shit, but then someone else will get to say their shit as well.
You can't drown out each other by just increasing your volume. And that
Pooja: I think I disagree respectfully with each other. You don't call them names, you don't just, oh yeah, he did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He called us names
Abhinandan: and I think that is because they're very used to that. So that default setting has become something.
But I have an idea which I would like to propose here after these emails are over.
Dhanya: Hey Manisha, I just wanna add about the Nikhil car story that, you know, that's one story where we got like two kinds of opinions. One [01:21:00] people telling us that, oh, that was an interesting read. Other people is like, what is a point?
There is a certain problem. And you write business profiles right beyond a point. What do you write? This was, I think it served a purpose to show that how certain mil billionaires actually, um, sort of write how they perceived as in they are the ones who control how they're perceived and there is a proper business plan behind that.
That was a purpose of story, and I think he did that. And also I think it's not like he's hated by people. It's not a prophet
Pooja: on mo's pie. Yeah. He doesn't have, and what we realized is the life that he's led, it's not that colorful. He, apart from the fact that he's made like lots and lots of money, it's been fairly uneventful.
It's not like there were huge ups and downs in all of that for us to report on. So, yeah.
Abhinandan: So I had a suggestion and I don't know, will it become too volatile, too, uh, uh, polarizing, but you know, because this letter mentioned it about the. North Indian, chauvinism, et [01:22:00] cetera. I'd done a show back in, I think 2010, 11 for Fox Traveler called Watts with Indian men wit Suha, uh, and in Da Gupta, who was supermodel of international at the time.
And we, uh, traveled to 10 cities across 10 states exploring the gender dynamic. It was not really done in any deep sociological way. It was a travel show, so it was very superficial and shallow. But that was the whole pitch that, you know, these two very independent one supermodel, Soha, I think was a VJ actor, singer, et cetera.
Um, and I remember going to Carla and when we were talking about, you know, Punjab and the chauvinism there, and they said that the, the two men we featured their wives, uh, we were having lunch later once you were shooting, they said, we don't buy this whole. Chauvinism and not anything. Be a Malu woman, come sit in our shoes.
And it is as good and bad. Good, good. Or as good or bad as that men across the country are as [01:23:00] chauvinistic Now I just, and then I was just discussing yesterday, uh, at home with my mother who's Tamilian and I was saying MOU would've been canceled today, you know, with his rendition and OSA off that. But I found it funny and I am half Tamil.
Uh, my mother found it funny. She's full. Tamil Ud,
Pooja: by the way, is from Bangalore.
Abhinandan: Oh, is he? Okay. I thought Hedi
Pooja: No, no, he's, I mean, he, uh, lived most of his life in Bangalore. That is why Lucky also has his space in bang. I
Abhinandan: was wondering that. Is it. I mean, what is the reason that certain parts of the country are more sensitive about how they're stereotyped or made fun of and certain parts of the country are not?
And what determines that? You think we can have a podcast around that? Or will it become too, uh, polarizing?
Dhanya: What is your example? What are certain states typecast as? For
Abhinandan: example, if someone, uh, you know, like the whole uh, um, um, LGI dance thing in, in, uh, that, uh, Shena Express, I mean it was obviously a [01:24:00] stereotype, but it was, it was not, it was not some sociological study, but the pushback of it was like, oh, how dare they, this is lu dance.
Like ser have been treated a certain way in films. I don't see any protests in Punjab. I mean, like, I, I genuinely believe, and I've said this, I think, I think certain southern states are oversensitive about just minor pop culture things. I'm wondering, I just finish Ladies, we should protest more. Lemme, lemme finish ladies.
Let me finish. I'm just wondering, is there a little over the top, over sensitivity in certain parts because across the country, Gujarati Parsis having stereotyped in cinema across India. Forever.
Dhanya: So it's not our fault that they're not reacting right. That is their laws. I I'm saying Gujarati, Parais, Bengalis, Punjabis be on the street and opposed, I mean, how was car fault?
Somebody is not reacting to it.
Pooja: I have a sl I'm gonna try and keep my emotions out of this. I completely endorse that. Everybody should protest. [01:25:00] But here's my sociological explanation to this. You know, there is, there is a perceived power imbalance for the longest time if South had not after the nineties, and especially two thousands become economically so.
You know, strong where people from the north are having to come here for jobs and whatever else there. It was always seen, at least when we were growing up, that culturally, financially, politically, of course north has an upper hand. Yeah. So when it comes from a place of superiority, it feels like you're looking.
Now look at the characters, right? It's all caricatures. It's trauma. It's trauma been then of the past. That is a problem. Now we have the digital, uh, medium to hit back at people to say, you guys are idiots with all the things. You are being ignorant. It's not funny. So it's not like we don't
Dhanya: do it back.
Correct. We do tweet here. They are making fun of punjabis and
Pooja: RAs and even in our real lives, it's not like car stereotypes don't exist in the south. Everybody outside of the five states is North Indian. There's nothing called
Dhanya: where. What is your show? Your show is going to be how certain states react and certain states don't.
What is the discussion about?
Abhinandan: No, [01:26:00] the, the exploring why. Like for example, what Pujas thesis is an interesting thesis. I'm not about whether it's anyone's fault or not. See everything in life is not about, some things are no one's fault. They're just observations. Yeah. I'm tell
Pooja: you the perception PO point of it.
I'm saying that's, I mean there's no blame
Abhinandan: whether others should protest or not. We are not saying it's their fault. They should not or not. I'm just wondering is there some historical sociological explanation on those who do those who don't? We have our individuals whether you should or you shouldn't, but I'm just trying so, Hmm.
Manisha: I wanna just, uh, jump in with some more stereotypes. One, I think, I don't think all sudden states can't take a joke. I think maus are very good at taking a joke. I think it's specifically tams who get very uptight if there's a joke cracked. I think it's a specific Tamil problem. Tamils and Bengalis are both incapable of taking a joke on themselves.
Punjabis are great. I think you can always crack a joke on them. They track a joke on themselves. Also, I think Ami is also good at taking a joke.
-: Mm.
Manisha: I think if you were to look in India, I think [01:27:00] it's mostly, um, Bengalis and Tamils cannot take a joke. And when we talk about all of this man, how much northeasters are stereotyped, I think it's the worst kind of stereotype Northeastern go through.
-: Sure.
Manisha: And even they kind of can, uh, you know, they're, they're able to kind of, and if you see in the northeast. While they are discriminated against, when they come to Delhi, you know, the kind of things that are said about women, how they look, they are extremely xenophobic back home. Hmm. The kind of, uh, um, sort of hostility towards Bali bihari migrants there.
Abhinandan: Yeah. It
Manisha: is at dangerous oceans that certain times. So communities who also feel, so this whole, the power imbalance, of course, you're from Delhi and Del has treated you badly. No other region other than I think northeast has been treated in that way. And of course Kami also have some, but it is not that if you are treated badly, you can, you, you yourself will be nice towards
Pooja: sort of No, but also what the caricature is [01:28:00] matters.
Right. Manisha, like Punjabi, yes, they treat, there are a lot of negative attributes, but there's also this, Punjabi is a large hearted, fun loving and all of that dumb.
Manisha: The dumb joke has always been that the bar
Pooja: joke has always been, by the way, Malali also don't like it. No, no. Malali I think are done with the jokes.
They're okay. I, they look down upon everybody else.
Dhanya: They're very good at cracking jokes on their own self. Yeah. Like some stuff, like if you say, if you make fun of a, they're okay with it. Yeah. But they're not okay with para. Correct. But I have an idea for you instead of, I don't know what, what, how, how You'll have 10 podcasts on this, but what I want to ask one podcast, one we can do, do we can, are we doing half
Manisha: here?
Stereotypes that I have a suggestion.
Dhanya: There are many states which, which really refuse to look inward. Right. For example, why does, if I go to Kerala, I think Kerala is more patriarchal than most other states. And I'm from Kerala, myself. The
Pooja: politics is not so much socially, very patriarchic, very
Dhanya: and sexist [01:29:00] and misogynist.
So many sections of society are like that. Tam never looking inward about Casteism to a large extent. I don't know what other states have things like that where, you know, these are the, you know, they will always project themselves. Oh. Looking in North India, we are better. We are economically better. We are giving one rupe for every 25%, all that crap.
But when it comes to these things, nobody wants to look beyond the point. Nobody wants to be judged by a person outside. They will have discussions within the state perhaps. I think that is something you could have discussions on and. Peaceful ones,
Pooja: I think we can look at nationalism. This is all cultural nationalism also, right?
People now tend to call each of it as sub nationalism, which is also another thing, especially people in Ana to take offense routes, Tamal nationalism. And then it became tied to larger Indian nationalism part. And I was saying that what is it that people are, uh, task a Tamil person in Hindi films is like, you know, somebody who doesn't speak well, who's uncultured looks very un UNT [01:30:00] and all of that.
Whereas Kaga, it's a very new stereotype. Now, I don't think back in seventies, eighties there was something called Kaga. Most people didn't even know Kaga existed. And now it is like, what is Bangore stereotype? Glass buildings, people speaking English. So very, very, that's okay, right? Because that's a positive stereotype.
So I think that's why Tamils have a larger problem. Manisha, to your point of why you said it's a Bengali or a thumb, um, you know, pushback more,
Manisha: but also stereotypes originate from where Alexi Bollywood does a shit job of representing any community. Uh, so I get like those movies, uh, like the one with John Ri ridiculous.
But in day-to-day lives, which other community other than bha, I feel have most vilified across and to a level where there's actual violence.
-: Hmm.
Manisha: These are guys who've practically built our roads, bridges across countries. But when you see, and I'm, uh, so there's that, I think Bahari migrant work and Bahari in general, the kind of, you will not find that [01:31:00] in Bollywood, Bollywood, glamorizes, a lot of Bihar's, Haan, gangster, that language, which its ified now to a large extent through TT and Bollywood.
But day to day, uh, the way we look at the bahari is still very, I think it's way worse than say, look at a tam in North for sure. Correct. Even
Abhinandan: in Punjab with the labor, with the farm labor overall,
Manisha: uh, the overall impression of a tam person would be intelligent, you know, very sharp, erudite, that kind of thing.
That's normal with suspicion. And I think increasingly in politics it's bengalis. We've had two lynchings this week itself. One in Kerala, one in Risa because of the politics around Bangladeshi, uh, workers migrants. So increasingly bengalis are also facing attack and has nothing with pop culture, though. I think that that's more live reality.
Ab
Dhanya: do you have an idea of what your podcast has to be now? Because the podcast is over here,
Abhinandan: this short discussion of just about 10, 12 seconds is this is what it's to be about to, to scrutinize and maybe investigate and interrogate and [01:32:00] give, you know, sociological or pop culture explanations to why certain regions react more than others.
And I think that's, I think that's an interesting conversation. Like for example, when, you know, suto made that comment about Hindi during media rum. I mean, I didn't think anything of it, but if someone here had made that same comment about Tamil. 10 people would've said, how dare you say that from stage, what I'm saying is it doesn't, certain, certain people react, certain people don't.
Dhanya: No. No, I don't. There's an outbreak cycle like that, right? Jokes like I personally share so many reels making fun of malali. Uh,
Pooja: no, but you can if I, and then was to share that there. But I think it's also because how we've defined, defined Indianness, right? Indianness somehow, not just now after BGP and all, traditionally it's Hindi, anybody who speaks India.
I know a friend, uh, who is a, who's stumbled, who used to work in Republic tv. He quit and ran, uh, some, he, he couldn't speak a word of Hindi in cabs. He was told, are you not Indian? Why do you not speak India? I'm [01:33:00] just taking one example. This is how it's been. If Indianness is closely linked to the North Indian, Hindi speaking and everything else, including Northeast is in the periphery.
So that is I think why there is, you take more offense when you are told that all, but generally Indians don't take jokes. Very, yeah. And we are extremely racist. All of us are. All Indians are.
Manisha: We should ha definitely have someone from Punjab there. Explain why, uh, s and Punjabis have been so cool about, in fact, I,
Abhinandan: the Chief Justice of India was a shar when that PIL was issued by that lady who I interviewed, that Shar should be banned and he heard a, I dunno why the Chief Justice admitted to his bench, such a frivolous, and then of course he dismissed it.
But his observations were really funny. That dude, you know. To take a joke on ourselves. I think we are fun that we take such a joke. I think it was Justice KeHE, uh, if I'm not wrong, who heard that? PIL.
Manisha: Also, the community is as sort of well off and assured as the Sikh communities and well loved also. I think there's a certain sense of [01:34:00] confidence also that comes with it, so they can take a joke.
But that is one of my favorite interviews with that lady. You, and it is just a hilarious interview where you ask her about this song, you know? Yeah. Do you like? She's like, yeah, yeah. Very good. Lovely song.
Abhinandan: Yeah. I said, how about that? I said, why is that okay?
Manisha: No, but that's okay because she found it fun.
Yeah.
Abhinandan: She found that that should be allowed, but sjo should not be allowed. I want you to tell me a joke that involves a Sikh, but does not have, have level. There is a part of a story like MOU was in, in the, that created
Dhanya: a lot of weight.
Abhinandan: So tell me a joke that involves a Sikh character but is not offensive.
Dhanya: Not offensive,
Abhinandan: huh? Like Mahmud was in, I don't
Dhanya: think any joke is there because, so there no joke that the
Abhinandan: Sikh is not offensive?
Dhanya: No. Yeah. Not even a single. So, so, so
Abhinandan: suppose, so suppose Mahmud was not a, a as a Madi music teacher, but he was Shar music teacher. [01:35:00] Would that be okay?
Dhanya: See if you see the million is not coming from any religion here.
Can, you can hurt from
Abhinandan: religion, you can hurt her an ethnicity, not a religion. Right? So let's get the recommendations for the year, not just for the week. Let's start with it has to be like, so if you want, I can start with mine because I really think that these books have not been appreciated enough and spoken about enough.
Uh, and they are, I mean. And people may have accused me of bias, but I'm saying that as objectively as possible. Ab Cho's two part series, believers Dilemma and Cent of the Hindu, right? I don't recall having read two books that have packed so much information and are so easy to read and are so politically and historically relevant and accurate.
I mean, I, I really think a bigger deal should have been made about both these books. I highly recommend you read both these [01:36:00] 'cause it's not just about Wape. I don't know. I don't even know how much he must have read and primary documents he must have gone through and people he must have interviewed to write, uh, these two volumes.
So my recommendation for the year is read both these. Um, do you wanna go Puja, Danya? Who wants to go first?
Pooja: I don't have for the year, uh, yet, but, um, I, I wanna focus on what I think we should look at in 2026 and in, in the same direction, this new book written by, uh, Pajata along with a younger writer. I, I just bought a book over the weekend.
I met them over the weekend too. And it's called The Cont, a controversial Judge, and they're looking at, uh, justice Arun Kumar Mishra, uh, judge, lawyer, uh, and, and whole bunch of other controversial judgements. I think we, uh, because of obvious, very legitimate fear, even media does not look at, uh, judges and the judiciary enough, and perhaps rebuilding a democracy should start from there.
If we fix our judicial system, there can be some [01:37:00] recourse to all the nonsense that's happening. So, yeah, that's my recommendation for the week. And going forward, let's do more stories. Tania,
Dhanya: I don't have any recommendation for the year.
Abhinandan: No, no. I, I just, yeah. It couldn't be for the week. That's fine.
Dhanya: I mean, I'm into crime podcasts, so I'm just telling everybody, please listen to more and more crime podcasts.
There are so many. That's fine. I mean, I've been looking at the serial, lots of them This year has been all about crime podcasts for me, and uh, some of the, um, ones from Canada America are so good. They just like draw you in. I'm like, oh my God, this story, we could return to a podcast. And I'm like, okay.
Maybe that's the malu in you, your love
Manisha: for crime. Crime stories, the most creative
Dhanya: crime not stereotype us. This funny sha we will not take it like that. Who only
Manisha: stereotyped yourself. When you told me that the most bizarre crime stories happen in true,
Dhanya: bizarre murders happen in Canada this year has been less.
Actually. Are you doing your yearend list of the most bizarre? There are very less bizarre murders, right? I, I can't remember any. I think care lights have lost that Zing.[01:38:00]
Lost that zing
Abhinandan: zing. Oh dear God. Okay.
Dhanya: Yeah, these people do not understand the Gen Z language, um, especially, especially AB on that. Um, okay, so, um, I just bought the book. I haven't read it, but I will recommend it even without reading. Is the Dig by Mia show? Oh yes. We had her, uh, on South Central also I think a few months ago.
It's on the, uh, dig, so I'm gonna read that this weekend. So kudos. Mia's have book has come out and those who have read it are saying very good things about it. And it's also very important because it comes at a time when the archeological survey of India has said that the report itself is questionable, it's not scientific, et cetera.
So let's see what Samya has written the week. Uh, I thought Al's, uh, story on what's happening in Bangladesh was a very good read. It's titled the Mohammad Yunus Government Played with Fire. Now Bangladesh Burns again, it's by Cyrus Naji. Um, so that's the week's read and yeah, I think [01:39:00] Believe was Dilemma.
So many people have recommended it during so many episodes. I really, really like the book and I think I will keep going back to it whenever I read somewhere that, oh, BPA is different from the Rain Modi and he's, his BJ P is different from Modi's BJP.
Manisha: So two books that I really enjoyed reading, uh, this year.
One was Sam Darwin's book on Partition. The other was Man's book on God and Missionaries. And it's always nice to go back to history because so much of our current turmoil, uh, you can trace it back. That and you, you can actually see that it's never been, I think it's new. I think that's what's comforting about history.
Whenever you read history, you realize that nothing that you're experiencing today is new. Everything has happened before and that's oddly comforting. Uh, my other recommendation for the year for everyone is to please subscribe to News, laundry, and News Minute. This is a free podcast, but you have to subscribe to both [01:40:00] organizations.
We've done some fantastic work this year. We've been on the ground. We've tried to bring you investigative reporting on key issues like electoral bonds, electoral fundings. We are not without flaw, but the good thing is that are open to you guys telling us what we do wrong. We are open to improving. We are very keen on feedback, and we have a community of subscribers that we engage with every year through media and through different ways, through letters.
So it's a two-way kind of a thing. So it's great to be part of this community of, uh, people who care about news. Who love news, who care about democracy. So please subscribe and support in whatever way you can. And my final recommendation since it's New Year is this album that I'm listening to a new DJ that I discovered, lap Gun.
He's from Chicago and he has some really funky tunes. So you can check him out on Spotify or YouTube.
Abhinandan: Nice. What a variety of recommendations. Manisha from the musical to the intellectual to [01:41:00] the public service.
Manisha: A very urgent public service of subscribing.
Abhinandan: Right. So I'd like to thank, uh, in our studio here a producer Ali and a wonderful sound, recordist Anil.
And who is there assisting us in your studio there Danya.
Dhanya: There's me and there is Aja, who's, I mean, we have made them come to office on December 26th. Yes. We've also come. Mm-hmm. But just. Want from her face. Yeah.
Abhinandan: And, uh, we should not say goodbye without thanking Manisha Pane, editorial Director of News, laundry, Puja Prana, the reporting, and, uh, the head, uh, and senior editor at, uh, news and I Shall not Do the injustice that was done to me in the beginning.
Ra General co-founder and et inchi and, uh, the Scolder in chief of both organizations, uh, for joining us. Thank you so much.
Dhanya: Thank you. Thank you.
Abhinandan: Bye-bye. Have a great year. May, 2026 be your best year. [01:42:00] And do subscribe. Bye-bye.
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