Hafta 477: Electoral bonds, seat-sharing for Lok Sabha, Ramnath Goenka Awards

This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Raman Kirpal and Anand Vardan are joined by Dhanya Rajendran, co-founder of The News Minute.

On electoral bonds, and the Trinamool Congress being its second-largest recipient, Anand says, “One factor [which determines this] is which party is seen as remaining in power for more time. Power magnets in a region.”

The panel then discusses the seat-sharing arrangements for the Lok Sabha polls. In Tamil Nadu, Dhanya says the BJP has “almost sidelined the AIADMK” and has become “confident of forming an alliance in Tamil Nadu without the party, which was not possible five or 10 years ago”.

Talking about the Adani group funding the Ramnath Goenka Awards, Abhinandan says, “It’s complicated. For new journalists, it is a motivating factor, it builds morale.” Raman says it’s okay to receive awards funded by conglomerates as long as they do not interfere in the outlet’s coverage. He adds that The Indian Express’s coverage of the Hindenburg Research report accusing Adani group of stock manipulation was “relentless”.

This and a lot more. Tune in!

Hafta letters: Post-truth eras, political awakenings, electoral bonds

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Song:  Wake Up Now

00:05:20 - Headlines

00:17:02  - Electoral bonds

00:38:28 - Tamil Nadu, Bihar seat-sharing

00:53:15  - Adani sponsoring Ramnath Goenka Awards

01:13:55 - Letters

01:35:11 - Recommendations

References

HM Amit Shah cited wrong data to underplay BJP’s share of electoral bonds

7 firms that failed drug quality test gave money to political parties

Rs 45 cr in bonds by infra firm founded by BJP MP, a hydropower project, and curious case of U-turns

Sonam Wangchuk on Ladakh stir, failed talks with Centre

General Elections 2024 Fund

Recommendations

Dhanya

The costs of Reliance’s wildlife ambitions

The Assamese: A Portrait of a Community

Anand

Lawrence of Arabia

The Oxford Companion to Politics in India: Chapter - Politics and Business

Raman

Adani’s Dharavi redevelopment: New dreams or nightmare?

Shrinking of Mayawati

The curious case of Sosamma Iype and the Vechur cow

Abhinandan 

Project Electoral Bond

Check out our previous Hafta recommendations.

Produced and recorded by Aryan Mahtta, edited by Hassan Bilal. 

Hafta 477

Dhanya: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry

Abhinandan: podcast and you're listening to NFTA

News. Welcome to another episode of nfta. We're recording this on the 21st of March, a Thursday at 11 in the morning. Things may have changed by the time you heard it because even as we speak, there are all sorts of seats being announced. Seat sharing is being speculated on. And today's really a heavy news day because there's much happening in.

Many parts, uh, including some Tamil versus friction because some, which will tell us about. So on that, let me first introduce you to the panel. Let me start off by introducing Dhania Rajendran, editor in chief and co founder of news minutes, who has won two Ramnath Givankar awards. Well done, Dhania.

Dhanya: Thank you.

And [00:01:00] congratulations to news laundry. Also, you all have won two

Abhinandan: awards yourself. I went and I thought grabbed the awards and started getting photographs clicked. I was very surprised that you didn't come for the ceremony. You're like, you're beyond all that. I was hoping you could also come get some. No, I couldn't.

I couldn't

Dhanya: because, uh, too many, uh, people to take care at home.

Abhinandan: Oh, damn. See, that's the thing. That's, that's, it's just so much. You're juggling too many things, professional and personal. And, uh, but I clap very hard. Raj Kamal Jha took a dig at other media owners because Mr. Puri and his daughter Kali was sitting right there next to me.

Then we have a few maliks who have gone down on bended knee so comfortable in that posture that it hurts if they stand up.[00:02:00]

There is, there is an ease of doing business and there is a very specific unease

Also joining in the studio is Raman Kirpal. Congratulations, sir. You two won two, uh, Ramnath Ganga awards. Congratulations to the entire team. Yes. It's everyone has worked hard and our in house genius and legal expert, Anand Vardhan, who has last month finished his second year law exam. Second year for third

Anand: semester.

Right. And when you took

Abhinandan: the exam, you put the knife on the chair on the desk. How did you take? It's not like that. Am I typecasting just because you're from Bihar? I'm stereotyping. But so you'll be a lawyer in three more years, two more years, five year course, no? One and

Anand: a half year. But how, how

Abhinandan: long is the course?

Three years. Oh, sorry, right. Five years is when you go direct from school. [00:03:00] Got it. All right. Good. So we'll have an in house lawyer. We'll have lots of work for you, Anand. We can. Re rework your package because , as you will note, we have got five more it notices. We have a court hearing coming up on the 28th there.

So lots of action happening. So Danya is the, like I said, uh, the co-founder of News Minute. Uh, and that now is going to be the only introduction, although our wonderful producer and research team has given me the long intro of hers, which includes things like times Now and Neon stress, but now she doesn't need that News Minute coffee here.

And of course, she was in 2022, awarded the National Reading Award for Journalist of the Year by the Mumbai Press Club. Okay, this podcast is free. Hafta, I think this is the last week of free. From next week, it's going behind the paywall. So please share with your friends, family, relatives, whoever. Because even if they're not subscribers, they'll be able to access the whole thing free.

Cause from next week, it's going back behind the paywall or whatever DDoS attack has not stopped, [00:04:00] we will be taking this to the cybercrime unit. It's been what, almost over a month and someone is spending a lot of money to attack our website. Uh, we hope we will get a good investigation and also, uh, you can contribute to our election funds, which Dhanya's team and Raman sir's team will be covering together.

Uh, Uh, we will be covering the coming up Lok Sabha elections together. Uh, this time, instead of one project, we have smaller projects and you can choose which project you want to contribute to, like, you know, scroll news minute and news laundry, put the team together, uh, with some independent journalists as well.

In fact, Ravish has credited all of them with photographs, uh, and this entire electoral bond coverage was done together because the amount of data that came when teams work together. Uh, Great things can happen even small teams. So do contribute to the election fund of the News Minute and News Laundry joint coverage of the elections because they'll all be traveling all over the country.

It's a big country and a [00:05:00] lot of coverage needs to be done. And like I said, this is the last week of the free hafta. So do share it with everyone you can on WhatsApp group, social media, et cetera, et cetera, and tell them to contribute and pay to keep news free because when the public The public is served and advertisers pay.

Advertisers are served. And you could, you can see that when you see the news these days. In fact, today, let me start with the first headline. The Election Commission today has requested the center and states to stop all political advertising. I don't know how they're going to implement this. I mean, it's rather vague instruction.

What is a political ad and what is a nonpolitical ad?

Raman: If you just advertise about your scheme,

Abhinandan: government scheme with your face, it's not political. So anyway, and of course this whole thing of Rahul is giving Hafta a bad name. Hafta is such a noble show and he's saying BJP is doing Hafta Vasuli. But, uh, the headlines are the 17th Ramnath Goyenka Awards for Excellence Journalists were presented on Tuesday, March 19th and the News [00:06:00] Minute and News Laundry won two awards each.

So thank you all of you for supporting us. Do continue to support us. There are many more reports that need to be done. Then the election commission of India, which dominated. Several headlines this weekend last actually, uh, it announced the 18th Lok Sabha election. They will be held in seven phases from April 19 to June 1 with counting of votes on June 4th.

So we'll know the result by the 4th of June. The EC also announced the schedule for the Andhra Pradesh, Arunachal Pradesh, Odisha, Sikkim assembly elections. They'll be held the same day as the Lok Sabha polling. Meanwhile, assembly polls in Jammu and Kashmir will not be held simultaneously with Lok Sabha election, but they haven't right now.

announced when those will be held. Then the last Thursday while we were recording the hafta, the election commission made public the electoral bond data given to it by the state bank of India. Data from the state bank shows bonds worth 16, 490 crores are redeemed between March 2018 and January 2024. Of this, BJP received 8, [00:07:00] 252 crore, the single largest of any party.

However, the crore, which includes bonds and non bonds. Is that correct, Dhanya? Yes.

Dhanya: Bonds, trusts and donations.

Abhinandan: That's 12, 000 crores, but bonds only is 8, 252 crores. Yes. I see. And do we have, uh, the rest of the data to raise the deadline, right? To give the alphanumeric code, alphanumeric codes.

Dhanya: Today is a deadline for the state bank of India to inform the Supreme court, uh, that they have submitted the data to the election commission of India.

The election commission of India has to upload that on their website. We are hoping they'll do it today or at least tomorrow.

Abhinandan: And once that happens, then, uh, Raman sir, yours and Supriya's team can tell us who got money from who, is that correct? Or will that take a while? Is that like too big a data dump?

We don't

Dhanya: know in what form they're going to give data because I already see, uh, tweets and the social media posts from. Right wing, um, uh, you know, thinkers that it's not easy [00:08:00] that on one end you will have the, uh, data, which is basically that SBA is not match both these things. They were entering the board only when they were issuing bonds.

They were not entering the ports when they were redeeming the bonds. Therefore, we are not sure how the data will come. But if the data does have the unique ID while the bonds were issued and when the bonds were issued, it won't take too long to match them.

Raman: In fact, SPI said in the court that your, the alphanumeric code that you're talking about is not going to give you an idea who gave whom.

So even they also said the same, but the court said, Nevertheless, you must give this unique ID. So, let us see.

Dhanya: No, let's see. No, and let me add one thing here. See, it's very clear that all the parties know exactly who gave them the bonds, right? For example, I want to give a political party, let's say, a thousand rupees as bond.

I go to State Bank of India, I gave, I give a thousand rupees, I get the bond, which is a paper, and then I go give it to the party's office. [00:09:00] So all parties do know who gave the money because they would've taken it down. Uh, the jd uh, you and uh, TMC have told the, in their affidavits that uh, they got bonds anonymously.

People dropped in their office and they did not know who gave 10 gross. But look at the dmk, the dm and the jds. They've given a clear a chart of who gave them how many bonds. That means. All parties do have these bonds and we have been watching AM Ji speaking at Media Con one after the other, in which he clearly says that, let the details of the bonds come.

We'll see who, which means he definitely knows who gave

Anand: donors.

Abhinandan: The Indian Alliance will not be able to show its face. When they find out where the money came from. When they find out where the money came from. They don't know that they [00:10:00] have hit their own foot. So anyway, so I, but you think if the data, let's see, we get it by tomorrow, we have no clue how long it could take to get.

We

Raman: don't know. We don't know. It may happen within minutes, hours, or it may take

Abhinandan: days. Right. Okay. Then meanwhile, uh, K Kavita, uh, who is the daughter of former Chief Minister K Chandrashekhar Rao, was arrested by the Enforcement Directorate on Friday in connection with the Delhi excise policy case that the ED has been pursuing for a long time.

In fact, Arvind Kejriwal disobeyed yet another summon and he has gone to court as we speak, but now he's being summoned also in a Delhi Jal Baud case. This is.

Raman: This looks so motivated. Mm-Hmm. Uh, I mean, ed Spokesperson is giving a statement. It, it is quite rare. In fact, spokesperson don't speak like this when the case is on.

Okay. They don't speak outside the court. Hmm. So, outside the court, he is giving a statement, which I read in [00:11:00] the, on the front page of the all the newspapers where he is saying that the chief minister, Val, had conspired with Keita.

Abhinandan: And in fact, her brother recorded the arrest because he says she has protection, but you're still picking her up.

I don't know what the legal aspect of that is, but we'll get a little more detail from this from Dhania. In fact, today is a very balanced hafta because one of the issues we'll be discussing has to do with the north and one of the issues we're discussing has to do with the south. So this, hopefully this time we will not get emails from one side saying the other side was ignored.

Then the Bharti Janata Party and the Janata Dal United have finalized their seat sharing agreement for the upcoming Lok Sabha polls. The BJP will contest 17 out of the 40 seats, while the JDU will fight from 16. Lok Jan Shakti Party, which is, uh, Ram Vilas Paswan's, led by Chirag Paswan, will fight 5 seats.

Uh, and his uncle has, uh, Resigned from the cabinet because he's upset that his nephew's party got seats and he did not. We [00:12:00] will get some more details. Meanwhile, while we, when we started recording this, apparently the Tamil Nadu seat sharing formula has also been worked out. Maybe Dhanya can tell us more about that.

They've announced it's finalized just as I came down, it was coming as a headline, but the anchor wasn't committing whether this is confirmed or this is quote unquote sources. Meanwhile, uh, item number 13 today on the Supreme court was the editors guild of India and comedian Kunal Kamra who have challenged the IT rules.

Uh, This was basically stayed by the Bombay high court. Then there was a split decision that had come. The third judge was appointed, said that the government can, uh, can notify the it, the it was basically the government can decide what is fact checking because they will set up a fact check unit. And if they tell someone take this down, cause this is misleading, people have to take it down.

And the one time that they did this, an Al Jazeera report that which they made all sorts of acquisitions, what [00:13:00] they claimed the Al Jazeera report was saying, it wasn't even saying that. So, uh, it's rather problematic thing. And since it was listed today, item number 13 of the Supreme Court last evening, the government notified it quickly.

And

Raman: the fact check unit also, they, in a, in a very hurried fashion, they have appointed the same PA, PIB, which had been doing, uh, you know, fact check in the past. Of which we

Abhinandan: did a report. Yeah. We did a report. They had ordered all wrong fact checks. Yes. So anyway, so the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology notified the PIVS fact check unit.

So let's see what happens today in court by the time the hafta ends. Then the center on Wednesday defended the selection of two new election commissioners by a committee that excluded the chief justice of India. Uh, the center says that the independent, independence of election commission does not arise from the presence of a judicial member on the selection committee.

Uh, this is in response ADR, uh, Had filed a challenge, the appointment. So let's see where that was. Meanwhile, Guru Ramdevji Maharaj, [00:14:00] Patanjali Ayurveda, uh, and Balkishan, they have apologized to the Supreme Court for the company's misleading claims about its products and their medical efficacy. The affidavit was filed yesterday, but I think they'll still have to show up in court, right?

Because the Supreme Court insisted that they had, they have to show up in court. Uh, then a local trader's body in Uttarakhand's, uh, Dharchula forced Muslim shopkeepers to down shutters and gave a call for the ouster from the town after two minor girls, uh, allegedly lured by men from Bareilly. In fact, it's been played up by a couple of channels today in the most grotesque and communal fashion.

The Dharchula. Yeah. Up. Par Sangh cancelled the membership of 19 and 1 traders. They're mostly Muslims and those members are stopped from opening their shops for three days. Dutrakhand police have booked members for the trade of the traders union. Then the Chinese military has reiterated Pradesh, calling the area an inherent part of China's territory, adding that Beijing never acknowledges And [00:15:00] firmly opposes.

So-called a illegally established in India. Meanwhile, the United States also has said that it recognizes a as Indian territory and strongly opposes any unilateral attempts by China to advance its territorial claim. So on that, India is very happy on what they're not very happy about the ca that the US State Department has said about the CA.

So I guess. Foreign relations is always, always a balancing act. This is an important headline according to world air quality report. India is the third worst air quality out of 134 countries, uh, after Bangladesh and Pakistan. And if you see those 10, it's a list that I don't know how we can be so proud of being on.

It has like Burkina Faso, Sudan, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Like, I really don't know how we can be a quote unquote developed country when on air quality, we are with

Raman: the air quality. Just the Delhi figure? No sir, this is all India. And this LG is just picked up Delhi.

Abhinandan: [00:16:00] And Israeli military on Monday raided the Al Shifa hospital in northern Gaza.

The horrific pictures of babies dying, injured. It's, I mean, I, I just can't understand. And this guy, uh, Netanyahu has completely ignored Biden's, well, I won't say requests, but saying that it is be unacceptable for them to, uh, enter. All the territories that they want to, but, uh, let's see where this goes.

It's, but at least the thing is that the kind of criticism that then Yahoo gets from his own country, press in his own country is at least there's some kind of democracy there. Uh, I mean, here, if there was a war on and you say anything about the great leader, as soon as we got five it notices week before last, Can you imagine there's a war on?

If you say something, you'll be pretty thrown into prison for terrorism. Anyway, but still, we are mother of democracy. All right. On that note, I'm going to remind everyone to please contribute to the [00:17:00] NLC in our projects and pay to keep news free. Uh, so two things from you, Dhanya, please, if you could start off with, um, actually three, uh, first on the electoral bonds, uh, you know, what are the stories our audience should read if You can't talk about all the stories because I think your combined teams have done almost like 16 reports on this.

Now, if I'm not wrong, I was counting this morning. I could have got it wrong. A total of 16 reports have been done. Uh, and regarding the seed setting Tamil Nadu BJP. And finally, this whole thing of Rameshwaram cafe blast DMK has filed a complaint against

Last year, I hope I've got the pronunciation right. She said person from Tamil Nadu plants, bombs, et cetera. And she's now also got reprimand by her own party, right? Those are the three things. Take them in any order you like.

Dhanya: Um, so the first one about electoral bonds, yes, we have done around 16, 17 stories.

Uh, but most importantly, we are ready with the material for a lot more stories. We're waiting for the matching of the bonds to happen. [00:18:00] It's a consortium of around 30 journalists, uh, from the News Minute, News Laundry, Scroll, and around 10 independent journalists. The names are there. We're calling ourselves Project Electoral Bond, and I can tell you that Uh, after a long time, there has been this kind of excitement about a story in the Indian media, at least in the alternate and independent Indian media, uh, two stories politically to read is about, uh, the home minister and his allies and his narratives going from conclave to conclave.

Um, you know, giving out these fraudulent numbers and also spinning his narratives. They've written two stories on it, uh, on the bonds itself. Obviously, we all know that there is a correlation now between raids by central agencies or, you know, cases by ED, IT, et cetera, and the way companies give money.

There are more important stories about pharmaceutical companies. These are things that impact us on a daily basis. Companies that were producing important medicines, whose drugs were under question, they [00:19:00] were giving money through electoral bonds. We have put out those stories. There are, of course, business people who are under investigation who may have given for quid pro quo.

The specific story about this businessman, um, and a BJP MP from Andhra Pradesh, who was doing a project in Himachal Pradesh, where there is a Congress government. And just days after he signs this damn project with the Himachal, with the Himachal state agency, he gives 40 crores through bonds. Now, we don't know who he gave it to, but Abaan Usmani of News Laundry had done that story.

And when we checked, um, as to which parties had redeemed and cashed the amount at the same time, both the BJP and the Congress came up. So quid pro quo, I believe, um, most parties have indulged in quid pro quo. All that will come up now as we match the bonds. The big story, of course, has been on the Santiago Martin, the Lottery King from Tamil Nadu and Megha Engineering.

We know that out of 1, 300 or 1, 400 crores [00:20:00] that Santiago Martin gave, around 500 were for the DMK. Who he give the rest of the money to. That's what we are all wondering. Mega engineering, of course, has been benevolent to giving all parties money. Um, we saw the JDS has put out their list. The DMK also is talking about MEA money.

So I guess MEI has been, uh, benevolent in

Abhinandan: giving everyone money. Isn't this company close to, uh, Mr. Nath of the part, uh, Congress, also this mega engineering? It's, uh. And they say it's quite close to the Congress as well. But can you just tell me one thing, Dhanya, that, I mean, they say that, you know, there was a time when all the jute industry, tea industry, even the Tatas, ITC group, everyone had their headquarters in Kolkata.

Bengal was the hub for corporations. And the, Thing that I've been hearing for the last 30 years, ever since I entered the new space was that Bengal is finished. Everyone's moved out of there. No industries are nothing. How does Mamata get so many, so much [00:21:00] electoral bonds? Like what favor can she give to anyone if no one is doing anything there?

Why does she get so much money?

Dhanya: And they put around a thousand, I think, quite a few crores. I'm not exactly sure.

Abhinandan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could be from

Dhanya: pharma industries. We are still waiting, right? For the distant. Companies, we've seen companies and pharma companies give a lot of money. So an educated guess is that TMC also could have got, I'm just looking at the numbers.

TMC got thousand 700 crores, but 95 percent of their funding is through bonds. They don't have anything through donations or trust. So almost all their money is through bonds. So who has given it, let's wait for the breakup. But what I'm hearing is that Santiago Martin also has given them money because there is a lottery business there.

So, um, okay. But yeah, it is surprising some of these parties, for example, the BRS, the Bharat Rashtra Samiti, which is the, which was the ruling party in Telangana, their money really peaked in 2020. I'm just looking at the list. It peaked in 2020. [00:22:00] 1, 22 and 23. That's when they were in power. And when the elections were announced 23, 24, they got 496 crores.

A lot of these companies which were giving money were from Hyderabad. So we can only assume that the Hyderabad based companies, which are pharma and infra companies. gave to BRS, but there are so many weird companies like the Hindu had a story about at least seven companies, which started, let's say in, in, in June of a year, and they give electoral bonds worth of anything between four to 15 crores in the next two months.

And all these companies have one director who is in the board of a bigger company, which means this is a direct, um, you know, this is directly started by the big company. There's some sort of money channeling happening and they're

Abhinandan: giving this money. And I'm wondering if the income tax department is investing in these companies that are set up in June, gave crores in a few months later, I don't know what they're doing now.

But I guess they're busy investigating News Laundry because we have done everything wrong under the sun. So yeah, I get that. So on this, [00:23:00] any little inputs for our audience before we move on to the seed sharing, etc? No,

Raman: I think, uh, you know, every penny is attached with the string. I believe that. But, uh, I will not, as a reporter, I will not still get into that realm so far as the bonds are concerned, wherever.

We could, that could connection, we could do that. But I think I'll wait, uh, for more data. Uh, in fact, uh, there are two stories in the, are in the pipeline from the news Laundry for the entire team. Mm. Uh, scroll and, uh, news minute, uh, which we are, uh, you know, uh, deeply looking into, uh, will it, so, so I think, I think just wait.

Abhinandan: Uh, but, but, but when the, uh, the bank doesn't have to say which. Bond number was redeemed that that that you're saying that the state bank says we don't record that data the redemption. They don't record

Dhanya: But the court is [00:24:00] insistent on it, therefore

Abhinandan: we have to see what the state can say. Through unique ID they can easily do it.

But after that we need to do our research. But first we have to get that unique ID.

Raman: So I think, I think if, uh, like when Bajaj is giving to Aam Aadmi Party. So I find it more ideological than. Good Proko. Okay. I mean, political donation in itself is not a crime. So, so, so I think,

Abhinandan: uh, let's watch. Any inputs on this Anand?

What, what role you've read on the whole electoral bond issue?

Anand: No, no. Court has said that you have to, uh, diverge all the details that you have. So, uh, the ball is in SBI's court, what details it has. It can and file an affidavit that I think by tomorrow. Um, uh, that we have done away with everything that we have, means we have said everything.

So in the smaller regional parties, which have shared the details, [00:25:00] uh, uh, what, what Has been their methodology for doing so so one thing that jmm said jmm Was one of the first to do so even before this episode and they said that one of the donors came for a receipt He demanded a receipt and we had to give so it was not this year even earlier They had shared that so it was the first to do so because of a very specific circumstance and Uh, the bigger parties like BJP and Congress have said that we are not legally, uh, obliged to do so.

So we don't maintain it a BJP in, uh, uh,

Abhinandan: paper that it's shared with the

Anand: election commission of India in November, 2023 said the same that, uh, we don't maintain.

Abhinandan: So what I've given up has given Jharkhand Mukti Morcha has given, I think four or five parties. No, no.

Dhanya: Not even the full list is given only for the first.[00:26:00]

Abhinandan: Um, and GMM has given full list GMM, DMK has DMK has given,

Dhanya: okay, GMK has, AIDMK has, GDS has. All

Anand: right. And, um, so this is second thing is that, Garg, who was the economic affairs secretary when in 2017, when this electoral bonds scheme came here. So last month, uh, in an interview to the Indian express, he said that.

Uh, he, uh, gave the nel be behind the, uh, uh, anonymity factor, the same thing that the central ministers have said. And, uh, after the SBI first had declined, uh, not declined, but didn't say, uh, the numbers. On the given date and applied for extension. So, uh, he, he was, uh, uh, giving this statement that it would be difficult.

Uh, this, uh, extension [00:27:00] has no logic, but it would be difficult to match that. Uh, logic of SBI is correct, but, uh, Supreme Court has not only asked for that, it has first asked for the data. So, uh. Given the information that he had at secretary, is it really difficult to match? So, uh, the, all the organizations that, uh, some quid pro quo is clear, some may be

Abhinandan: speculative and some may emerge as we see when the caching was happening.

Second

Anand: point that I was, uh, coming to that, With reference to what you said about TMC getting and, uh, I think it's also the, um, factor that to which party is more, uh, seen as remaining in power for a long time. So the power magnets of, of a region and also at a point of time, TMC had ambitions in the [00:28:00] fourth North East, which has dwindled to a bit now, but, uh, also the, The catchment area was larger, the Northeast states plus West Bengal.

So and if you see the pattern of the supposedly Q, McQuid pro transactions, it is more for parties which. Are seen as a horses for the longer race in a particular region. So, uh, that could be one of the factors is second is, uh, capital and political parties relationship. Now, as in the last church, I said that the left The argument even before independence about crony capitalism, if you, you read, uh, left or ideologues, uh, Rajni Palme, that's work India today in 1942, he charged the Congress party and Gandhi.

of [00:29:00] being, uh, very sympathetic to the Indian capital and quid pro quo. He hinted at because, uh, according to him, uh, Gandhi used to suspend movements, uh, at times when it would hit. Industrialist industrialist. So, uh, this charge is not new even. Uh, and then the due to industry you said, and this after independence.

So, uh, the, uh, classic left charges that. Uh, it, it is a totology to say crony capitalism. Simply say capitalism. Cronyism is inherent in it. It's an unnecessary word, cro. So, so, uh, a totology is something that is unnecessary, something

Abhinandan: that repetitive when you repeat something so.

Anand: Uh, that is a third about South particularly, since we have a guest here from South.

So Prashant Kishore, I think a month ago [00:30:00] when he was asked in one of the interviews about the key difference between North Indian elections and South Indian, he said that, well, bonds and this are a different thing, but the amount of cash prevalent in South elections. And he's, he has managed, uh, he has not managed would be a wrong word.

What, what is that? Uh,

Abhinandan: advice consultant. He's been a consultant to many parties in the

Anand: south, also DMK and, uh, YSR Congress. And of course in North, he has been a consultant to many parties. He said that, uh, the scale of ca in, uh, south has so much that sometimes it appears that. Even, uh, a whole state by a small party can be, uh, contested with the budget of a single candidate in the south.

The cash transactions are so much. So beyond bonds, this is the institutional and at least this, they were on [00:31:00] record anonymous, but record. But, uh, but, uh, if we look beyond this and we want to inject. Transparency. One of the suggestions is a state funding, which I don't think political parties will, uh, uh, muster much, uh, political will to pursue in next four, five years, uh, maybe later.

But what to do about, about this cash transactions, this,

Abhinandan: I mean, also, I think like our media makes a big deal of everything that, you know, the opposition does with even Nirmala Sitharaman saying that, you know, Transcribed by https: otter. ai This was good because then we will, cash will go out of the black money funding, but I thought demonetization had killed the cash, no, I mean, every two years they make up some new shit and the media doesn't question them.

Like on the conclave she was sitting and these, you know, jokers like Rahul Kamal et al sitting grinning. I mean, not asking any question, but you know, when she said that, he said, but you had said the cash is finished. Where's it coming from? If that's either that was wrong [00:32:00] or this is, but anyway, so that's all about the electoral bonds.

I just like to move on to election related things, the Dhanya, this DMK filing a complaint against Shobha. Karan Laje, does this, um, I mean, this is also something I will talk about when you get to Bihar, you know, BJP tying up with Raj Thackeray in Maharashtra. If you know, the Congress and Lalu are smart, they can just go to town because there's so many clips of what Raj Thackeray thinks of Biharis, of Chhatt Pooja.

All the, I mean, he was not even subtle. I mean, the way he, the kind of things he says. I saw one speech of his yesterday. Uh, it's in Mati, but he's talking about puja and making fun of bahari.

I mean, if they, if they run a good campaign, they can finish the prospects of BJP and the allies [00:33:00] by invoking ally in Maharashtra. So Maharashtra, they get it. This is that ally there. So this is what the BJP thinks of you. So, uh, similarly, so regionalism is an, you know, it's an, it's a very. Uh, emotion evoking thing is what was the, um, like stimulus for this remark by this lady?

How significant is she politically and, uh, does this mean that she's going to be completely sidelined by her party? Can you tell us a little about this? And why did she say people from Tamil Nadu are like, why, like, where did it come from? Is there some political motivation?

Dhanya: There's no way to understand why Shobha Karan Laje says what Shobha Karan Laje says. I mean, for years that's been and she's a significant politician. She's a minister of state. She's not a simple, uh, a small time BJP leader. She was a minister in the Yadirappa cabinet here. [00:34:00] And I think after that also, now she's a minister in Narendra Modi's cabinet.

She's a minister of state. So it's not a small fry saying this and she's had a history. In fact, we have put out a story yesterday recounting. I mean, sometimes I feel that it's important to recount when politicians do hate speech. It's not a one off thing for them. They do it continuously. And this is their modest operandi.

So, um, but during COVID, she had blamed Malayalees for spreading COVID. Uh, during the CA protest also, she had said that Malayalees were behind spreading unrest, especially in the Mangalore region. So initially, uh, she was, uh, she was a leader who was elected from the South Karnataka region, where there is, there is some, um, friction between, uh, Keralites and Karnatakas.

Not at a large scale, but a lot of people from the neighboring Kerala districts come to study in Bangalore. So obviously, uh, these are the normal things going on. She did try to capitalize on that. Then there was a death of a young man called Paresh Mehta, where she made up [00:35:00] a lot of fake news and there were cases filed against her, but nothing happened.

Now, of course, she has been chosen to be standing from Bangalore, from North Bangalore constituency. Bangalore has a lot of Tamilian population. So in South Karnataka, she was pitting Malayalees versus Kannadigas. In Bangalore, she's pitting Tamilians versus Kannadigas. There's no basis to what she said.

She said that Tamilians are getting training from Tamil Nadu to plant bombs if they come to the cafe, uh, here in Bengaluru. So this is very, uh, uh, very typical of Shobha Karanlalji to be saying something like this. Not the first time as I have recounted examples. Will the BJP take any action? No. Why? I mean, they know clearly that this is what she says and that's why she is there in that

Abhinandan: party.

And Yadur Rappa has condemned this comment, has he not? Or he's made, he's, he's, he's not considered close to him. She

Dhanya: was considered close to him. In fact, she was known as his protegee. Uh, but they have, there was a fallout in between, between BSC Ardurappa [00:36:00] and, uh, Shobha. At least, uh, they were not as close as they were before.

And we had actually recently written about how, uh, Ardurappa's son, Vijendra, who is the BJP president in Karnataka. was not keen on giving the Chikmaglu Sikh to, um, that's a Sikh which Shobha wanted, uh, that to her again. Um, so there is definitely friction, but see, the BJP will distance itself publicly when caught off guard.

But the point is, there is, look at Raja Singh, another example, right, from Hyderabad. He was suspended by the party after he made really hateful comments. Uh, this is after that, uh, Munawar, uh, tried to do a show, a comedy show in, uh, Hyderabad and Raja Singh put out a video against Islam and Allah. The BJP suspended him for it because it is a direct.

And there was no way that BJP could deny it. Now, just before the election, he was taken back into the party and he contested and he won. So, the party can take public positions sometimes, you know, uh, distancing themselves, but we clearly know that nothing eventually [00:37:00] happens and these people are in fact rewarded.

And like you said in the beginning, perhaps by the time this hafta comes, Nupur Sharma would very well be a candidate of the BJP.

Abhinandan: Now, you know, I just find it fascinating that how media plays such an important role. And for so long we had underestimated it, like this whole Shakti comment of Rahul Gandhi, which was a nothing comment, how Mr.

Modi played it up. Now, Mr. Modi plays it up. It's fine. Um, because no matter what we choose to believe, everyone's not dying to hear what Modi is saying. But the media ran it as if it is the most important to shock team, insult to Hindu Shakti into Shakti Shakti the time, the time that they were just, so, so that's how the media takes it.

Now, can you imagine if you were to the same level of amplification? Of what the BJP Canada is saying in Karna about Tamils, what the BJP Ally and Mara saying about BAHAs and, and these are not such in OC, because the Shakti was not an anti Hindu [00:38:00] Combinator. It was just a, he was just saying that this guy misuses power basically, and they made it into this Hindu anti Hindu narrative.

I just think that this is a, I think it shows the desperation of the BJ B. It's on a plateau. You can just take it to the state and saying. Here, no comment added. This is the speech of the ally. And of course, people's emotions are gonna get hurt, but, uh, clearly that And, and what about the seed sharing in Tam do, uh, uh,

The BJP is just, in fact, let me get the, I hope the final data is up, but I think they are contesting is five seats out of all right.

Dhanya: Yeah, but, but the list has not come out yet, has announced.

President Annamalai will be contesting elections, but it is a curious case where the BJP has completely Or almost silent. The AI dmk, a lot of the allies, um, [00:39:00] um, have shifted positions. Of course, I Dmk is hanging on this party called the pk, but many of the others, uh, like uh, Shaku. Then there is, um, um, PT within Occurrence, uh, a mk.

All of them have joined hands with the bjp. So the BJP is actually building an alliance in tam. Without the

Abhinandan: AIDMK. Which is, yeah, I mean, so basically AIDMK is out in the cold. In fact, what you said, PMK has been allotted 10 seats. Yes.

Dhanya: No, I can't say AIDMK is out in the cold, but the BJP has become confident to actually form its alliance in Tamil Nadu, which was not something that could have happened even five years or 10 years ago.

And the only party to be blamed for that is AI Dmk itself. The AI dmk allowed the BJP to come into their alliance after Gerald passed away and O Ps. Um, and now the BJP has bjp, at least thinks it has grown to the extent that it can manage and alliance of its own. An Malay has been going on telling [00:40:00] every interview that the BJP will.

25 percent of the vote system.

Raman: I don't know much about this Telangana governor who has resigned and I think he's going to contest. That's what they say. But is she prominent, uh, in Tamil

Dhanya: Nadu? Tamil Nadu was the president of the BJP a few years ago. before Annamalai and L. Murugan's term. She is a popular leader, uh, just like Vanathi Srinivas who had, uh, uh, who is currently, uh, an elected, uh, uh, elected from Coimbatore.

So, uh, we are hearing that she could be contesting from one of the Southern Tamil Nadu seats. So the BJP will definitely do better in some of the seats, but surprisingly a lot of polls by Tamil channels. They're questionable, but they've already given like three to four seats to a BJP in Tamil Nadu and around 20 to 25 percent vote.

I would definitely question that kind of numbers, but the BJP will do much better than that, than it did in 2019.

Abhinandan: And what about, uh, Bihar now, the seat sharing there, [00:41:00] um, this, uh, Mr. Paswan's son is. Now, Patrick's got four seats. I mean, at least my view was that he's quite a nikamma that, you know, after his father went, his party was nothing.

Clearly the BJP has a lot more faith in him than others did. Uh, is it a step down? And so that's one, you know, if you could just explain to our viewers, the seat sharing formula and in your view, um, is it smart? Uh, and B, uh, how, cause I know it was a big issue back when Balthagraha was alive and they beat up all those taxi and auto drivers from Bihar.

Uh, with Raj in their side. You think it is something that could really offend the BJP if used politically smartly? Uh,

Anand: I, uh, I don't think it is, it will be a big issue because, uh, I think, uh, if that is the logic, uh, then, uh, BJP can say that, uh, the, uh. Telangana Chief Minister, Congress Chief Minister, [00:42:00] Revant Reddy, just two days after taking office, he said something that we are more intelligent or DNA, some DNA kind of comment than Bihari and this, this, something.

And for that matter, DMK was, Also at the center of a controversy and TV. Harry come means,

Abhinandan: uh, just to be hired as I used to basically being discriminated against.

Anand: We had is don't know. They take that in a stride. They don't play victim card. They're like Punjabis. No victimhood card because they are. two mainstream in Indian politics to play the identity, regional identity card to too much part of the

Abhinandan: mainland.

And yeah, I didn't even work in Delhi when the Chatpooja when Manoj Tiwari tried to make it an issue in Delhi election, it had zero impact.

Anand: And like, uh, also The, on the radar of political awareness and relevant issues. There are too many [00:43:00] things. Uh, like before the Bihar assembly elections, people thought that, uh, uh, the media narrative or the response to the Singh Raj Booth, uh, case would be a factor.

Mm. It was nothing because we had is too much politically aware society, even if economically backward aware society to make these issues a major things. So that is, uh, uh, so the seat sharing formula is almost a repeat of 2019 except one seat. Last time we had a BJP and JDU both had 1616 each and LJP had, uh, six seats and other,

Abhinandan: and LJP that time was not a split.

LJP, right? No, not a

Anand: split. LJP I'm

Abhinandan: sorry. Was Ramas alive at the time? Yes. Or five years ago?

Anand: He was. So he

Abhinandan: passed away in 2020. So, [00:44:00] but his passing makes a big difference, right? I mean, his son's LJP is,

Anand: uh, uh, the thing in Bihar is that, that LGP is not a card based party. So the split didn't, uh, uh, affect. Uh, the party workforce so much.

Hmm. It is just, uh, a very drawing room controlled party. Hmm. So, uh,

Abhinandan: in that way,

Anand: uh, the architect of the party was Ramas and, uh, even if his son didn't, uh, match up to his stature, uh, the sentimental voter. Group with Ramas is, is still with, uh, his son, his son, not with the brother, and his uncles are seen as opportunists.

Mm-Hmm. Uh, but, uh, one thing is that, uh, uh, why this formula worked out, we have to go to, uh, two months earlier when, uh, [00:45:00] the reentry of ti and uh, uh. Chirag Pasman has no love lost with Nitish. So the reconciliation happened, uh, uh, means it's an intelligent guess just that, uh, Chirag would be accommodated well in the seat sharing, uh, when Lok Sabha elections come.

And that was supposedly the BJP's deal.

Abhinandan: And I would, I would speculate on another deal because considering all the films are being made now from Savarkar to Jihad story to this, his deal should have been revive my Bollywood career and take all the seats.

Anand: Uh, so, and, uh, he has, uh, um, settled for, there is, there are also reports that he has settled for one seat less because, uh, he just wanted to keep his uncle out.

Uh, so even [00:46:00] one less seat is acceptable, but not. To, uh, uh, accommodate the rival group within the, so,

Abhinandan: so there you, I mean, so there is a danger of them cutting into each other's vote, right? Both the rival groups and that, that, that is a real danger. I'm guessing, uh, not,

Anand: not much because it, as I said

Abhinandan: earlier, the, he's the sympathies of the sun.

But it is a highly, you know, community driven vote, right? And the community is the same. I'm guessing. I mean, I remember when I covered my third election, it wasn't like covered as an, as a reporter, but I used to write political satire. Paswan had the record for the highest margin ever

Anand: in 1977, how he had Guinness

Abhinandan: world record.

Yeah. So it had the, so I, and at least till 2004, that was still the record. I think that was broken later, right?

Anand: Narsimha Rao. I think Narsimha Rao

Abhinandan: broke it. So that was probably before 2004 then, right? So, but

Anand: the thing is that on their own, uh, LJP is not in a [00:47:00] position to win five seats. Even in 2019, they won six seats because of the transfer of votes worked well for them from BJP to this.

So being a lie. Works the JDU, uh, J. Uh, so, uh, I think, uh, the seat adjustments are more about, uh, not, uh, upsetting the God now and look for what, uh. This is an election coming up. There is an election coming up in 2020 assembly elections. So, uh, now don't, uh, BJP's game plan seems to be now don't upset the allies and keep them in good humor by, uh, Uh, being generous to them and look for a harder bargain in assembly elections.

Raman: So, so Anna Norman is talking about cast sensors. What happened to it? Now this, uh, [00:48:00] uh, the CM is going to use it for, uh, VJP and, uh, his own party is,

Anand: yeah. So is it hard to play any role? There are two, uh, credit games going on. One is the, in that 10 like job. After which they have given three lakhs jobs, uh, government jobs.

Uh, so, uh, RJD is prime claim is that, uh, when we were in the government for 17 months, we made it, uh, got it done. And also the cost census, now the RJD and JDU battle lines are about, uh, the credit who, who gets credit

Abhinandan: for that. So, um, you know, Dhania, if you could just come in. Yeah. Also. A comment, we don't have anyone from there, but, you know, Pradyot Dev Barman, who was so critical of the BJP, you know, they've reached out to him.

He's also allied with them for the Lok Sabha election, uh, from Tipra Motha. And, uh, I think Tripura has one seat? [00:49:00] Yes, one Lok Sabha seat. And they've promised him, you know, whatever tribal council, et cetera, he wanted. So, You find an agreement. So clearly the BJP is reaching out to all regional players, even who can give them one or two seats and giving them whatever they want.

Of course, that's a different matter. Many people tell me that, you know, they will promise, but they will not be able to deliver. And then it'll be too late for whoever they can walk out, but they've already won. So, I mean, I don't know how they'll play that, but they're reaching out to like Dhanyava Singh in Tamil Nadu, all the smaller parties, the smallest parties there.

Like Anand said, it's very difficult to play that anti Bihari card electorate. And electorally get any gains in, uh, Bihar and clearly the large Bihari population in Delhi also did not really care about that whole identity politics as Manoj Tiwari tried. Uh, in the South, it works more effectively. You think a Malayali versus a, uh, Tamil, uh, or there also, it doesn't really work politically.

So it, it won't really matter when it comes to voting. No, I doubt

Dhanya: [00:50:00] anybody in Bangalore North is going to vote for Shobha because she said that Tamilians are planting bombs or even during COVID, uh, when they were trying to instigate, uh, uh, trouble saying that Malayalees were behind, uh, uh, bringing COVID cases or behind the CA protests.

But, uh, what can happen is that, like I also explained, the BJP has been making progress in Tamil Nadu. But the Tamil Nadu parties can use what Shobha Karan Laje said against Tamilians to drive sentiments against the BJP. But there are things the BJP also can use, for example, Udinedi Stalin's comments or A.

Raja's comments on Sanatana Dharma, which people of Tamil Nadu perhaps understand because they've had that politics. Of questioning . Pjp can use that in the northern states or even in states like Karnataka. So I think all parties do say things which the opposition can use. The question here really is about, um, the credits, which the media also gives to these campaigns, right?

Uh, how do the media see [00:51:00] all these statements as equal, uh, even if they are unequal, they definitely give more credence to what the BJP, uh, is wanting to say about the opposition. So that is how the narrative actually spreads.

Abhinandan: Raman Sir, on this, I want to just discuss one final thing before we, you know, let Dhanya go and take up the emails.

Although I wanted to stay just for one email, uh, on this, any of this about regionalism working at a national level, uh, do you think there are any particular areas where it works

Raman: more? I think it hasn't, uh, ever been smartly played even, um, you know, in the Delhi case that you're talking about, it was just, uh, an attempt on individual part.

As you said about Modi. Um, giving lead to the media and media giving credence to whatever he says. So if the operation also tries, I mean, if they, they have social media, they have entire machinery, if they also pick up such issues and try to use it, uh, you know, effectively and politically, [00:52:00] I think they can.

I think it will make an impact. This, uh, Raj Thackeray, I mean, the speeches are so

Abhinandan: They're really vile, man. If I was Bihari, I'd be pissed off, man. I would be really

Raman: pissed off. If you start playing, if you, if

Abhinandan: you dramatize it He's also so crass now. He's a different level now. He puts everybody to shame.

Also, I think because he's not interested in winning elections. He's just, he's like a child who likes attention. I really don't because as an electoral force, he's not saying

Raman: most of the time, if you just look at his picture, I mean, if

Abhinandan: you read his mind, he's so he and, uh, even, uh, Amit Shah Amisha

Raman: is all smile and he said, and I, I remember meeting him when I was with the Indian experts in Bombay.

So there also, I was also trying to, you know, make him cheerful, make the things lighter before we start talking about, uh, you know, but

Abhinandan: he was just like, I think this is, I mean, I think he was a pioneer of the syndrome, which now has hit Nirmala Sitharaman, it has hit Amit Shah, it has hit, [00:53:00] uh, uh, Smriti Rani.

They cannot answer a question normally. We've of course taken this up in nuisance this time, that no matter how innocuous a question that's asked, what are you trying to say, dude, I'm just saying like, hi, how are you doing? You know, it's, uh, so the issue that I want to talk about is that I'm many journalists have divided on this, you know, many of my own friends have views on it.

So I just want to know. You know, the panel's views, because both of you are heading newsrooms, you yourself, sir, in your whatever 30 year career, 25, uh, you know, of just managing teams, of course, for the first 10 years, you were a reporter yourself, but then you were, and, and, uh, uh, Dhania has been doing this for so long.

One of the things that have, and there are various positions on this, that the Ramnath award was sponsored by Adani. So there are many friends of mine who I really respect and we disagree on several things. Say that, dude, this should be called out. Um, of course, [00:54:00] you're talking to someone, News Laundry, whose media rumbles are sponsored usually by Facebook and Google.

Uh, now while Only events are sponsored by them and are there the rest of our regular reportage is purely subscription driven, but our events were sponsored by two of the most hated and vilified companies in the world, not just in India. Uh, now I get it. I get the connection that if you're saying that big corporation is buying up news, should they be the primary sponsors of one of the most prestigious awards in the country?

Uh, at the same time, uh, I think there is some value in the Ramnath Goenka awards. I mean, they are among the only three awards, I think, in India that have a jury that's transparent. You know who the jury is, that there's a system. It's not by we've pulled a bloody winner out of our ass and said, Oh, now, uh, you know, whatever, so and so is the winner.

So, uh, and you know, you may not agree with all the products, but. I mean, in all fairness, they have given Ramnath Ganga awards to people [00:55:00] who have done some really terrible journalism, but I've done one amazing story and they reward that story. So the, being an example of that, you know, so, uh, so it's complicated.

And of course, for new journalists, it is a big, you know, it is a motivating factor. It's builds morale, but I also get that should every journalist on news event be, you know, have the logo of. You know, Reliance or Adani or Anambani, et cetera, like, and you cannot live life through extreme positions. I mean, let's face it, you have to see what is strategically good at what time, how, what can you fight?

You cannot fight everybody all the time, all the time. So I just want to know your position on this. I mean, how complicated is it? What are the shades of gray that a general non news kakida, because we guys live in news. people who don't just get snaps. So what is, what are the grays? What are the subtext?

What are the [00:56:00] nuances of this whole thing? Because, you know, we ourselves are talking about it all the time, but in all fairness, you know, when the, when Maria Ressa, who won the Nobel prize, when she came for our event, she from stage trashed Google, uh, Facebook, she says, Facebook has killed democracy in my country.

They are an evil company. I mean, she did not hold back, but not once did Facebook say, we will not be associated with you again. I guess they're too big. They don't give a shit. But the fact is she sat on a media rumble stage sponsored by Facebook and finished Facebook as PM says mother or sister of democracy.

But Could you do that to Adani from a stage? I mean, Indian companies expect that once they've paid you, you will chat to their feet. They don't say we've paid you, now go do what the fuck you want, including bitch us out. Is it like that? Yeah. So that's.

Raman: No, this Maria example is, uh, Quite true. You know, uh, in Indian Express case also.

Indian Express, [00:57:00] I, I was associated with them for 12 years, 12 to 14 years. So, uh, there I found them, uh, if, uh, somebody is giving advertisement, uh, but they do right against them. Uh, I'll give you an example. This Tata, Tata Alpha. Tapes, uh, which was a very big story. In fact, a story of the, uh, you know, decade, uh, way back, you know, 20, 25 years ago.

And there the Tata stopped giving advertisement, but then again, it came on the, uh, Came back, you know, and started giving ads. So I feel that if Express, uh, even Adani, I mean, I also raised my eyebrow, but so long as Express file stories, factual stories against Adani, I think I'm okay with it. Likewise, I mean, I, uh, we, uh, I can say that we are already developing a story which goes against Adani in [00:58:00] the bonds case.

Uh, so we have already found some companies. So we are, we are digging. Uh, deeper into it before we announce and before we publish it. So, so it's so long as we also do it and we have accepted this award. So I think it, it is fine. You cannot isolate yourself, uh, you know, in this entire thing, you cannot, uh, you know, you, you don't need to amplify.

You don't need to amplify the fact that Adani has, uh, Adani has sponsored, uh, you know, this

Abhinandan: award. He also sponsors Red Ink Awards this year. He's basically sponsoring everything. Good news.

Raman: But so long as. So long as you're filing stories fearlessly, you're amplifying it that you are,

Abhinandan: uh, Right. But, but the whole, but our entire logic is not that if the model is dependent on big industrialist, it gets compromised.

If not today, 10 years from now, but of course, but also, you know, there's the founder of Zomato who also got into some shit recently with his vegetarian fleet that the models of all [00:59:00] industries are Changing every three to five years. So nothing can sustain and change a product. I mean, we'll have to see.

Danya, what's your position on this? How complicated or nuanced is this entire discussion? So I'm, I'm

Dhanya: quite clear on the fact that the question of, uh, uh, of, uh, of Adani sponsoring, uh, the awards, which is the Ramnath Goenka Awards. cannot be directed to the journalists who are receiving the award, especially young journalists.

For example, in my team, three journalists got a Prajwal Bhatt, Azifa and Bala Krishna got the awards. I don't think the onus is on Prajwal, Azifa or Bala to really say whether they should accept or reject the awards because they have been doing their job and wonderfully so, which is the reason why out of all those entries, they have gotten selected.

So if it is anybody's onus, it is for the senior people in the industry, uh, to tell, uh, and for others to question the Indian Express as to, is there no other money that they could have gotten for these awards? That is one thing, right? The onus is on the Indian Express to tell its readers, tell [01:00:00] people who are questioning them.

Second, I do agree with Raman sir that As long as the Indian Express, uh, as a publication, the other publications who have gotten the awards continue to do their stories without any bias, uh, without any favor, then that's fine. I would, however, question the Indian Express's coverage of electoral bonds. I was appalled at the story they wrote about mega engineering, uh, saying that MEGA is a company that came up from a shed.

This is not the time to write a puff piece on how Megha started as a company. It's a time for an organization to look at what are the deals which Megha got at that time. And I'm hoping they will write it at some point of time. Uh, the third question I would like to know, which I'm uncomfortable with, is That when someone like Adani sponsors an award event, what happens to those fantastic investigations which are done against Adani?

Will the jury look, take those stories into consideration? Uh, I do not know whether the, I think the stories in 2023 by Ravi I and Aaron, the, uh, of OCC [01:01:00] rrp, which came after the Hindenberg. Uh. There are also investigations by Raj Shekhar. So if those were to be sent for awards, will those be also looked at the jury impartially?

That's the question which really bothers me. Not just about Adani, but about any company that's sponsoring an award. We have had various instances where Vedanta has been sponsoring, now it's Adani. I'm sure Ambani has sponsored awards. What happens to a jury? Will they be under any kind of direct or indirect pressure on any awards?

For more information visit www. FEMA. gov to then discard

Abhinandan: these stories. So I think when it comes to the jury, at least. I think one of the important aspects of getting a jury of this type, I'll tell you who the jury this year was, it was Justice B. N. Shri Krishna, he's a former judge of the Supreme Court of India, uh, Professor C.

Rajkumar, he's the founding dean of Jindal Global Law School, uh, and, um, Dr. S. Y. Qureshi, who, you know, even we know of, uh, and K. G. Suresh, vice chancellor of Markhanlal [01:02:00] Chaturvedi National University. I'm not sure who this person is, but at least I know who three of these people are. And I, I mean, these are people of a certain stature who you can't say that, can you do this or can you do that?

And they're too big for that. Like, you'd be a bit embarrassed. So I think picking a jury is, you know, Also because, you know, a few years ago when we in partnership with the Population Foundation of India had given a fellowship to about a dozen journalists to write stories on public health, but not Hindi or English.

It's all language journalists. The jury was Madhu, Sanjoy Roy and, uh, the head of PFI. Now, I met all three people. Even if I had wanted, ki ko dedo, I can't go and say that to Madhu or, you know, the head of PFI because they are way, I mean, they say, Niko, shut up, go to the other room, we'll call you when we're done.

You see, I They're too big for me to kind of say anything to them. [01:03:00] So I think if you pick a jury like that, I don't, to some extent that can get insulated even no matter what the brand associated. Maybe, but I'm

Dhanya: saying those are the questions which people are asking, right? I've seen these discussions on journalist groups also, right?

People ask these questions as to, um, will they then take an Adani story or will they? So these are questions

Abhinandan: that everybody's asking. What do you think make of this? Uh, it's how, how gray is it? I know my positions on advertising are quite black and white and regular coverage, but then comes again. Why do you make an exception for events?

No,

Raman: no, but Indian Express, uh, coverage of Hindenburg was relentless. Yeah. It

Abhinandan: was very good. But as, as they don't see that, I'm an asks, are you sure that the bond of the sponsor was given before the offending article or after the offending article? Uh,

Anand: yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, uh, sponsorship and advertisement, uh, we, we can also make a distinction between [01:04:00] the two, but, uh, for print media, the right to advertise, uh, has been won through constitutional battles.

Uh, I have written on it. So the times of India group in 1972, uh, won a case that right to advertise is a right to circulate because Uh, circulation power comes through that, uh, the revenue, and it is a part of the freedom of speech. And Supreme Court has held that right to advertise is right to circulate.

In a number of cases, in Hindustan Times case, also in 19, Sorry, 2002 and in Indian Express versus Union of India case 1985. So print media has won that as a constitutional right that because that was a time when governments were curtailing

Abhinandan: the newspaper. Print supply and it was a significant if not the biggest advertiser

Anand: that you cannot [01:05:00] take paper for advertising.

So newspapers said that we need to advertise we have to earn revenue and to circulate and that was the print dominance time. So Supreme Court held that yes, right to advertise is an integral part of right to freedom of speech. Uh, that is one thing. Second thing we can, uh, say related. To, uh, what about, say, uh, some, uh, university events, uh, like, um, sponsored by companies?

Hmm. So, uh, right, if it, if, uh, there is a seminar sponsored by a certain group of companies, uh, and the subject of the seminar demands a critique of certain corporate entities, is it done? Uh, my experience is that critique, uh. is done irrespective of that. If a media house is in a similar position and does that, uh, then, then this sponsorship may [01:06:00] not be problematic.

Also, uh, the sports, many major sport events and they are sponsored

Abhinandan: by companies. Which are terrible for health, like Coke and Pepsi.

Anand: And so, um, so, uh, uh, but But, uh, do, uh, a sports, uh, a sports person participating in that. Mm-Hmm. If those companies have some, like you said, uh, some ill effects on certain aspects of life.

Mm-Hmm. If they don't, uh, uh, if they ignore it or say, uh, are for life, life and, uh, bound not to say anything against it, then that's a, that, that is problematic. Otherwise, it's fine. Let's see. You need, if you need money to run a show and someone is providing it, uh, without any thing attached to it, then it's,

Abhinandan: yeah, I mean, I guess you have to have, like, for example, there's certain, uh, clauses that are in SHAs.

They can just [01:07:00] tell a young audience this as they become entrepreneurs. News laundry has that if any of our investors give an editorial instruction, you know, there's something called for cause for cause if it's a part of the cause and if you do that, you forego your shares or whatever. So for cause your shares can be taken if you have given an instruction to news laundry to do something.

So that's, so when someone buys shares in the company, they know that. So that means if they give an instruction or a request, they risk losing their shares because it's. Uh, there are certain companies that have very strict firewall between editorial and, and, uh, this thing express did. So, I mean, there are ways and then there are ways, but on one thing I would say really, Jawaharlal Nehru was a visionary and I think it is the greed of entrepreneur, not, I won't call them entrepreneurs.

They were just rich brats. Uh, you know the entire, Bahadur Shah Zafar Maharaj kehte hai na, wajah Fleet Street of India. All those plots that were given to Times [01:08:00] House, this house, that house, National Herald also. I mean, let's face it, these guys just made it a cash cow for themselves. What the fuck was National Herald doing with a nothing paper?

And I mean, you give me that building. You know, with, with no resources, sir, News Minute, News Laundry are making such a big deal. Basically, the deal was that Jawaharlal Nehru said that, I don't know whether it was his idea or whoever's idea it was, that, and not just in Delhi, in all the metros, there were big plots given, and buildings given, two newspapers, the, The criteria being that 31, 33 percent will be used for news related activities and 66 rent out.

So the rent will pay for your news costs. And there will be a press and you have to publish the press within so that you don't rent out the whole thing. Of course, now the printing press is out, so maybe they should update the leases. But that is how Times Express, all these newspapers, National Herald had got all those plots of land.

Now, the problem is that [01:09:00] basic Indian. Businessmen are so greedy, they said, fuck the paper, we've got this bloody 5000 crore building, we will just print like one shit all paper once in a while, and we will maintain a lifestyle of plush top 1 percent with the building, they were not interested in it. Doing anything on the news, but that is a very good model because you give it to anyone on rent, you know, it could be Panwale you know, a modern bazaar taking it on rent, it could be a Vimal showroom, it could be a Maruti showroom who gives a shit, I get 66%, I can, you know, pay my reporters, etc.

And if you need more than your dependence on external factors, It's a fantastic model. And that is the whole national hierarchy that you are not using it to run a paper. You're using it to just make rent. That was

Raman: a model for Indian express for a very, very long time going car. They were surviving on the real estate, the kind of buildings that they had,

Abhinandan: they were publishing a paper.

There are almost 15 plots there. [01:10:00] I'm sure our audience hasn't heard of half those papers. There

Raman: is something from Northeast

Abhinandan: also. And they have, but the whole building and the rental you're getting from that is a crow, two crow Yes. A month. And you're doing nothing with it. So, you know, trust, trust, greedy, rich people to fuck up.

Even a decent model. Are there, is there such a street in Bangalore also, which has all these newspapers or given land? I know Calta has, have you, have you ever applied, has mad Oh, by, have you applied by the I know that by the way, in, up there is, uh, some, a new film city is being given. And there are some new age news entrepreneurs who are getting major land there.

We shall be doing a story on it at some point. Yeah, Dhanya, is that, do you think that's a good model?

Dhanya: There definitely are concessions for news organizations. I think the newspapers, but, uh, there are certain governments which give houses to journalists. Um, I mean, over the years, my [01:11:00] take on this has changed a bit.

Uh, on housing given to journalists and in the beginning I used to vehemently oppose it. But now when I see how badly journalists have paid, I don't know whether, uh, I can't blame some of these people to act for actually taking these houses, but that's a larger topic. It can't be discussed in two lines, but yes, a lot of media houses do get concessions in land, uh, definitely in all the

Abhinandan: states.

Right. Uh, so we will move on to the emails, but before that, let's say goodbye to Dhanya. Thank you for joining us and thank you for your team and congratulations to your team. This joint effort, it is, you know, three different teams, not three, three different teams and independent journalists coming together.

It's, you know, logistically a difficult exercise and it's always. Hard overnight for teams to come together. Who've never worked together. So congratulations on that challenge and how you guys have pulled it off. What recommendation do you have before we say goodbye to you? So I have two

Dhanya: recommendations this week.

One is [01:12:00] not a book. It's a, it's a story that everybody should read. It's on this himalmag. com. I think you should invite Rajshekhar next week for hafta. It's a story by the investigative journalist Rajshekhar. He looks at Ambani, Anand Ambani's private zoo in Jamnagar. It's an investigation which took him six months.

I mean, um, a long time because Ambanis are like people who work with them are also people who strictly follow something like an AmeriCorps, very difficult. So the story actually puts through very, very uncomfortable questions on one, how India's laws were changed to ensure that more and more animals are transported to the zoo in Jamnagar.

Second, uh, our wild animals, this is supposed to be a rescue and rehabilitation center, but it seems like wild animals are being taken there. There is also a lot of endangered animals being brought to the zoo. It's a fantastic story, two parts. It's come on the website for himalmag. com. So I suggest, I recommend that everyone should read the [01:13:00] two stories.

Book wise, I have to suggest this book. I've not, Finished it fully because of all that happening. I couldn't read it, but it's called the Assamese by Sangeeta Barua. I don't know if somebody suggested this book earlier, but for me, it definitely gave me, um, um, uh, peek into, uh, the identity of an Assamese.

What is their culture? Uh, she actually works, um, Uh, with the wires to the political end of the wire. So that's the book recommendation

Abhinandan: for the week. Thank you. And my recommendation to our listeners is other than listen to Dhania's recommendation, do contribute to news, uh, to the news minute as well. They have done some fantastic work.

Uh, and the more subscribers they have just overall, you just become that much uninhibited while reporting. Thank you, Dhania. Have a fantastic weekend. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Bye. So before we move on to the other recommendations, let's get the emails. We only entertain emails of subscribers.

We do not entertain [01:14:00] non subscriber emails. Just letting you guys know, you can mail us at podcasts at newslondon. com. I repeat podcasts at newslondon. com. Please keep the word count below 150 words so we can include as many emails as possible. Or you can click on the link in the show notes below. It'll open out this window and you can fill in your comments, your critique, your suggestions, advice, et cetera there.

So let's start. This is from Saju Verghese, climate fast in Ladakh led by Sonam Wangchuk is not getting the eyeballs and it was anyway expected. Have not seen attention from News Laundry. Request your team to have appropriate coverage in this phase. I think we've done one story on this. When we started the fast.

So Saju, we did, I think the link in of that interview will be in the show notes. Cause I have. seen that, but I think Saju means that it's entered its 15th day today and he's sleeping outdoors in like minus 15 degrees. And he is a celeb, he was a celebrated voice of Ladakh at one point. And he's, and they said 10, 000 Ladakhis are going to march to that area, which is a China has taken over [01:15:00] to, but the legacy media has not even touched this story, even as a ticker.

Yes. So I think that is, uh, yeah,

Raman: it's playing on social media and we had, we had, uh, done an interview

Abhinandan: with him. Right. Okay. The next is Rishi, uh, says, are you aware of any media organization using artificial intelligence to get insights of data revealed related to electoral bonds? Do you have any plan to use AI to do this or other things related to reports?

I believe NL subscribers may be aware of AI tools. And if you have any ideas about using new tech to digest this or other data, they can help. Do you have any plans to. Get help from subscribers. I think you should start with smaller projects like beta features to see how feasible it may be to get help from subscribers.

So Rishi, we actually have used our subscribers AR app. It was first sent out to the people who had contributed to the NLC because a bunch of people had contributed for the tech fund that actually made the app possible. The new features that we kept adding the accessibility features, the beta [01:16:00] version of said, when it comes to AI, we are experimenting with a tool.

It is less than perfect, uh, but we are seeing because we have to stay abreast of technology. So some of the, not the detailed reports, but some of the shorter reports, our desk is using AI technology. Of course, it's not the final eyes always of the editor, which is where we are catching that AI gets a lot of things wrong as well, including headlines, et cetera.

Uh, so, uh, We are using it in different ways. Any other ways that I'm aware of in this whole data deciphering was AI useful or helpful or did you guys use it in any way? Because there's a lot of data that was dumped, right?

Raman: We used other things, uh, other than AI. Uh, see the main thing here is Finding out who gave whom, you know that money so that we could not find it so far.

I mean, because we don't have the unique ID. So, so I, we keep trying. [01:17:00] We have. We have tried the best software so far to, you know, get information out of this data to analyze this

Abhinandan: data. Are you aware of any AI tools that are being, in law, that are being used? Law, law,

Anand: law researchers are using AI

Abhinandan: tools. But it is not at any stage, like, they're saying chartered counterants could be replaced soon, but lawyers can't, right?

Just to write contracts, I guess, yeah, I can write contracts, but not argue a case, right? Yes,

Anand: but also the analytical challenges will be there, like they can give you regulations and lies for you to an extent, but a specifics of in a specifics of the case, the application that would be a challenge for AI as it exists today.

Maybe it

Abhinandan: can advance. Yeah. Also, I'm shortly advanced at a insane rate. Then anonymous says, I've been on and thank you for all the amazing work. I'm guessing that when you said. You, quote, cracked the most difficult exam, unquote. Your sample [01:18:00] included IIT Madras, which, with your recent visit, it might seem as saying how in general these institutes didn't impart any political or civic sense.

However, I think given the fact you went to an E Cell event at IIT Madras reflects the openness and eagerness of us to be aware of politics and society around us. Although it was for entrepreneurship, can you share your talk there if possible? My own political social awakening happened there, thanks to many spontaneous interactions which has also one of the best environments any engineering college can get, and I agree a majority of students could still be like the way you saw, but not all, something embarrassing for me.

Saffronization of education institutes, IITM hosts, Kashi Tamil Sangam. Sangamam, a pilgrimage which is arbitrary, unrelated to them, and enraging for me. Annamalai gets garlanded by professors, and two hours to speak as a political stint. So, Ananas, first of all, I really apologize if because I made that observation very shortly after my IIT visit, [01:19:00] it may appear that I was talking specifically about IIT, which I wasn't.

But yes, I will be lying if I don't say that my experience there also. I mean, um, see that the first thing I say that when you're that young, when you're in college, Even if you don't know nothing, even if you don't follow politics, it's fine. I, I don't hold it against kids. I think that should be the age of a certain amount of innocence because later on your politics will catch up with you no matter what you do.

You cannot insulate, you cannot remain apolitical. But I think when you're in college, it's, it can divide people. So I'm not a huge supporter of being very political in college. It was an observation that when you are And the audience looks adult enough. They don't look like children. Like in a school, you don't mind.

And yet when they, cause they're voting, right? The ignorance on just the political history of their own areas. So it sometimes irritates you. But when I often I reflect, [01:20:00] I feel I was being impatient. So, but yes, I get what you're saying. Point noted. Thank you. By the for our audience, the reference here was that I had said that whenever I go lecture some of the finest calls, by the way, anonymous, I wasn't only talking about IITs, also IIMs, IIMs, uh, you know, the Delhi University, the average Delhi University undergrad.

knows so much politically than if I go to even IIMs outside or IITs. So I was just saying that it's a little frustrating that you see kids at JNU or Delhi University, etc. And then you go lecture at the top colleges and they don't know anything. Do you think it's just Delhi, Anand, since you are back in DU?

It's just Delhi people know a lot politically because they have political keedas because, basically, you weren't there for that hafta, I was just sadoing as I always am, ki bhai when I go to these top colleges. And you talk about something they are blank. They have no idea. But if you go to a Hindu, [01:21:00] Kirodimal, law fac, they bloody know more than you.

It just, it just annoys you sometimes. Dude, I've flown two days to come and talk to you and you guys know nothing. So am I being a dick and unfair? Anant, you're back in college. What do you think? You also train kids from all over the country. Is there a difference in different areas or is it that IITs don't expect you to know anything politically?

So No,

Anand: there was a time when it was a fashion statement to say that, uh, I'm not interested in politics. And that also, uh, was a cover for not knowing who is the prime minister. So, yes, many people, I mean, there was a time. Now, at least it is taken

Abhinandan: as ignorance. But is there a generalization of certain areas, certain geography, certain kind of colleges?

Anand: I, around 2013, 14, I lived in Mumbai. I thought that the people there, you know, [01:22:00] not as students on the street. They thought that Mumbai was the world and

Abhinandan: they didn't know anything about the rest of India. That even I felt in Mumbai. So,

Anand: uh, any, even adjoining states, they don't know much. So, um, the difference between other metro, uh, in place and Delhi is on, in Delhi, you can, by just positioning yourself, you are.

At least having this sense that you are seeing India, not because of the demographic, which may be quite monolithic in certain localities, but you are having a sense that you are looking at India, but that is even for all its cosmopolitan countries. claim Mumbai does not give you that sense because man on the street, if you talk anything about other states, he, he, my experience was that he's either not interested [01:23:00] or not

Abhinandan: knowing anything.

So that was my experience. I mean, in fact, yours may have been a little better because when I was, I was working. On a film and, uh, when you're working on a film in Mumbai, at least back then, I don't know what it is right now, you, when you're working, like if you're shooting at Filmistan or Mehboob studio, whatever it is, There are three of our films being shot, so during lunch everybody comes together.

At work, you're only talking to filmy people. After work, you're only socializing with filmy people. Even there, you're only talking film. And your aspiration is to be invited to Shah Rukh's party. So, your whole world, forget next state. You don't even know what's happening in Andheri, unless Shah Rukh is shooting there.

I was like, dude, the level of ignorance was And, uh, it's not an exaggeration when Anand says they don't know who the PM is. Cause I'm talking the 90s. Oh yeah. Actually, if you ask them who's the PM, of course, 90s are PM kept changing so you can, you can pardon them. Is it IK Gujarat? Is it Narsimha Rao? Is it HD Dev Gowda?

But the point is [01:24:00] that you genuinely met adults in their 20s who did not know who the Prime Minister of the country was, and they were working in film.

Raman: The coffee, Karan with coffee, I think somebody asked the question about president, who is president of India. So they

Abhinandan: couldn't answer. I remember there was this very famous interview of Sanjay Dutt in NewsTrack and the reporter asked him, you know, Bombay people don't know, sorry, film industry people don't know anything about what's happening in the country.

And his famous, he was like, haan, ho raha hai, kya pata, kaun hai, matlab, aap unko You know, the whole answer was, and we used to watch that for entertainment sometimes. We used to play that Sanjay Dutt's interview. Because after he got in for TADA, you know, we were watching his old interviews. We were like, beta aap mein hai.

Raman: Even in Delhi University, uh, during my time, I, I noticed that science students and, uh, IT students, [01:25:00] They were a little

Abhinandan: away. Also I think that the sheer amount of other data that they have to, they don't have time for this also.

Raman: They are in lab most of

Abhinandan: the time. Then Meraj Rizvi says, I'm writing this to congratulate Abhinandan and the NL, let's talk about team for producing such a well rounded, well researched and balanced episode on the Palestine Israel issue.

Weren't you the producer of that? Priyali produced that. You produced the Kashmir one. The Kashmirans are also out. Meraj, please listen to that. Our wonderful Aryan produced that. Uh, I don't think you all have been acknowledged and thanked enough for this. I also think that most of us do not appreciate how challenging it is even to pick the people you would interview, let alone conduct a whole interview.

Those of us who don't have skin in the game or influence can only educate ourselves and pray for peace. Empathy for those who are suffering should not be contingent on national alliances and cultural bonhomie. And bloody conflict should break our hearts at least to the point where it forces us to seek truth, understanding, and empathy.

I felt that in this episode. Meraj, thank you so much, um, for your [01:26:00] generous praise. And I'm amazed how much you've been able to communicate in 134 words. Maybe you're a praise see writing teacher, but thank you. Please learn from Meraj how in Such few words you can pack in so much. Thank you. Then Ishita says, In a conversation with my father in law, a Modi supporter, over electoral bonds, I realized the following.

In this post truth era, people consume news in their own echo chambers. Despite acknowledging that news is biased, he believes his sources offer factual information, and refuses to consider alternative sources. He insists that he doesn't support any party, but has seen Modi do great for the country. He refuses to accept the reality which he believes is false.

My truth based on false narratives. At the end, we were drained to even raise the issue like farmers protest, money for violence, wrestlers protest, and so on. It's disheartening to see what people will never acknowledge. It's disheartening to see that people will not acknowledge the flaws in the current government.

What's even more concerning is their reluctance to engage in questioning the government's actions. [01:27:00] My existential and rhetorical question then is, how does one even convince someone to look at reality? So Ishita, I'll only say this from experience with friends, relatives, et cetera. And there are various things that I do.

There are certain people who I think have seen enough, know enough, um, and they are coming from a position of bigotry. It's not like they don't know what's happening. Bigotry is very inherent part of their personality. And even if they did not have the economic arguments, they would still want a Uh, a nation that, uh, persecutes a certain religion.

So I cut off from them. I, I have no interest in them. I, whether they are family members, I don't give a shit. I'm like, fuck it. This person is not important in my life, but I don't lose sleep in changing their mind because I think overall you, you can't. I mean, you can't go through life trying to change people's minds in one conversation.

Certain people do change over time. You give them information. They are open [01:28:00] to consuming it. They will change their mind every now and then based on whatever data is available in front of them. And there are certain people who I genuinely, in one conversation, I have made them see things that they wouldn't refuse to see earlier.

So I think all three kind exist. I would just say that you should not, uh, let, if you're just surrounded by bigots, I know it's hard. There have always been bigots in the world. There will always be bigots in the world. You cannot shadow your own self because of that. You know, governments will come and go.

Ideology will come and go. You do your bit. And see what else there is to look forward to. I, I would not, you know, fuck my mood because someone's a dick. That's, that's all. Any, any other input, sir? We have Ishita, Anand, sir? No,

Raman: I'm, I'm a bit flexible about it. I mean, uh, I think there's a It naturally happens at times you just, uh, you know, get away with the [01:29:00] people who just refuse to listen to the reason or they don't want to argue about, you know, something.

He will just, just keep that. So it naturally happens. But in, in some cases when it doesn't happen, I try not to raise, you know, discuss politics, but if it gets discussed, yes, I'm.

Abhinandan: There was this very hateful, horrible book that had been published after the Delhi riots with all sorts of mandharang narratives about how it was this Muslim conspiracy.

One of the authors of that book is actually a fairly close relative of mine. I haven't seen her in ages. I probably will not see her now till I die. So I really don't give a shit, you know. I'm not I'm not going to make an effort to keep in touch. Yeah, that is for sure. Anonymous says, I think the messaging around electoral bonds case is too complicated for people to understand it right now.

In the past, we have understood scams through a speculative figure. XX rupee [01:30:00] ka ghotala. People may not understand what happened in 2G or cold scam, but. Gotala is they remember good point. The associated figure drives the narrative. This case as well needs to be broken down for the public to make them understand the financial, social and environmental costs of the public because the government favored certain corporations in exchange of opaque donations.

It's important to bring about issues like extortion, et cetera, but everything needs to stand behind a figure. What was the cost to the public? I know to be difficult figure, but that's where investigation, that's how investigations should lead. It's funny. I'm at Sean public forum. says that donations are in proportion to how much power BJP has.

The next obvious question should have been asked, why are you admitting to quid pro quo? Good point. Yes. But of course, who's going to ask that question? Rahul Kamal, Kalipuri, like seriously. But, um, on, on this, uh, he's absolutely right. There is some gag report, which says that the delay in a certain decision that the Delhi government took cost whatever 9, 000 crore because the decision was delayed.

It is not saying that. [01:31:00] That delay was because someone was taking money. They've just said that a decision was delayed. Today I saw some media houses leading 9000 crore ka ghotala. I said, yeah. I know, I know. But he's right. Just that. Just that word. So many crores of ghotala. They were not seeing the fine print.

But yeah, true. Then Ibrahim says, Happy birthday to the Newslaundry team. I would like to congratulate you. For all the great success and growth you have achieved, from being a media critique website to taking over the mantle of mainstream news when legacy media was sitting in Godi, it's been a pleasure to follow your news.

After the election bond case revelations, I think you should change your tagline to Modi apni vasuli aur news laundry apna hafta kabhi nahi chodte. Good one, Ibrahim. I shall think about it from jail. Uh, I'm having withdrawal symptoms since I have not been able to get my daily dose. Would like the podcast to start back, especially with election season [01:32:00] here.

Ibrahim, during election season, we will start with a few shows and podcasts, but we discontinued Daily Dose because we actually, uh, I don't know whether you got that, we sent a, what do you call it, um, questionnaire. A questionnaire to many of our subscribers. Whether, what do you. There were many, I think it had about 20, 22 questions.

And one of the things that we were trying to decide from that was that why do people consume news laundry? And it was overwhelming that people actually don't come to us for, you know, daily news. They come to us to understand what's happening. They come to us for analysis and they also come to us for investigative reports, but not daily news.

And the amount of, production time producers and resources that are being used for daily dose. We said if that is not what people expect from us until we have so many resources that we can just deploy some research for that because the reporters, you know, we have eight, nine reporters. So for them to do daily dose and pursue the investigations, which can take anything from one week to one month was being a difficult one [01:33:00] to kind of, if we do start it, we'll have to put one person in charge only of daily dose.

And right now, that's not how we would spend our money most. We would like to have more reporters out there. Then Commander Shepard, oh, he's written again, says, and Commander Shepard, again, your email is 258 words. But anyway, because it's the last one, we shall read the whole thing. This is Commander Shepard from the Mass Effect series back again.

Your discussion on Indian mentality and revolution for past three haftas were really good. I suggest you all should dedicate a full episode on it. A good point, actually, we'll think, let's talk about revolution. Good point. We'll think about this one. Referring to the last email, I guess propagandists won't work in India due to the discussed mentality and cross sectionality of Indians, which would end up making everything very niche.

What is everybody's obsession with calling those who you don't agree with a communist? Brother, being a communist in India is a good thing. We are a socialist nation. The last time I checked communist is a [01:34:00] subclass or adjacent to socialism. Stop with Amera, Amerabrain, I guess that's America brain.

Amerabrain propaganda, uh, saying this, um, to, uh, I guess he's referring to someone on the hafta, uh, who was probably trashing communism, I'm not sure. In the last email, I was trying to just point out how peabrained Arnab is, that he can't create his own propaganda and resorts to copying the American. Model, which is the Fox model.

Brother, get creative and make something that us Indians would enjoy. I, a lefty OBC with a useless commerce degree who doesn't even subscribe to his worldview, can come up with better propaganda. And if he gets paid to do this shit, I guess this is why BJP is cutting their funding and giving it to YouTubers.

Please make a full video of Hafta and Charcha available on the application and please make it easier to download videos on the app. I resort to copying the link through share and download in YouTube. Still can't download the video when it is [01:35:00] on the native player. Okay, let me check on why we can't do that.

But thank you so much, Commander. for your support, for your critique, for your feedback, and to all of you for all the support you give. Uh, now let's have the recommendations for the week. Uh, Anand, you want to go first? Yes. Uh,

Anand: one, uh, we had talked about, uh, the, uh, historical perspectives on relation between countries.

Capital and politics in India. So there is a nice analytical essay in a book, Oxford companion to politics in India about capital politics relation in India and since independence, even before that, one second is, uh, I am, I watched after a very long time of, um, this film, Lawrence of

Abhinandan: Arabia. Oh, you did? And so Peter O'Toole, Omar Sharif, what a cast.

Anand: David Lien. So, uh Yeah, David Lien as [01:36:00] well. So, uh, there are, uh, of course, some historical inaccuracies in it and because of its cinematic adaptation.

Lawrence's memoirs and writings, but two three things in today's times about the film is remarkable and in hindsight after watching it after so many years again, I caught some of those three things. First is That, uh, in a, if you watch the film carefully, it is about four hours length film, three, three hours, 50 minutes.

I mean, it is a very long film for any, any age. So, of, uh, uh, filmmaking, filmmaking, but. There is not a single female dialogue in it. If you, there is not a single dialogue by any female. There is not even a single female character in

Abhinandan: it. I never thought of that. Wow, [01:37:00] that's fascinating. And

Anand: in today's time when you have, and that does not hamper the narrative of the film.

I am not making an anti women

Abhinandan: or a kind of misogynist. One has to be careful

Anand: these days. Misogynist statement, but when you have films, which are fancy dress competition, like nowadays of, of identities, like you see unnecessary, some identity based scene just plugged in, which just to mainstream certain identity grievances.

You see today's film, some Uh, this group, you will find two minute scene like projecting certain identity. So I don't think David Lane had this bravery in his mind that I will do that, but he ended up doing that. He, he, for the narrative integrity of the film, he didn't need any female character just to make a point.

And he, he has left out. There is not a [01:38:00] single. Female saying anything in the four hour film So far .

Abhinandan: Fascinating.

Anand: And, uh, so this, I, uh, noted this time only when I

Abhinandan: watched Yeah. First, yeah. I watched the film, but I, this never struck me. Yes.

Anand: Second thing is that some of the continuities of history, it, the film is of 1962.

Yeah. Omar's role was, uh, offered to De Lip Kumar. He

Abhinandan: had declined. Is that right? Yes. I didn't know that. Okay. Yes, yes.

Anand: So, uh, so, uh, the second thing is that you see after four or five minutes in the film only that the leading characters gets a newspaper. So the media angle and he says that this has appeared in the Arabian newspaper, but it might not have appeared in the times in London.

So, the current narrative that the West saw is seeing. It's like, uh, say Ukraine war or the Gaza, [01:39:00] uh, war from a particular perspective. And the same narrative was then also that, uh, Arab, Arab papers are reporting it differently. And the time this might not, times might not have carried carried. Third is that, uh, Throughout the film, the continuity to today's time, in hindsight, we can see that, uh, Lawrence tries to stitch together an Arab nationalist identity through different tribes.

And that is a challenge now also. That hasn't changed. That the greater Arab national throughout

Abhinandan: the West Asia. But I guess. We are a lot closer today than we were then, but yes, it's still a challenge.

Anand: It's still a challenge. And it's fragile. Yeah. And for there is, uh, towards the last hour of a film and there is a newspaper person who is supposedly from a Chicago courier newspaper.

And he says that we want a character which will make [01:40:00] this war exciting to the American people. Now this is. So you are that character now, this is also a very contemporary thing that how to make the West Asian war far away from America very appealing to the American people now this and another continuity from there So these are things that I missed when I was young when I watched it now I pick

Abhinandan: That's interesting.

I watched it again. Yeah. And I'm also wondering what would that scene look like? You know, when in the end he becomes crazed and just he goes in, like he starts enjoying violence. And

Anand: also technologically the film is way ahead of its time. It, it, it can pass today's technology. Also some of the scenes he has thought like when, When, uh, like Omar's story first appears, uh, riding on a horse and it's a, it's a kind of mirage in the desert and, and the way he has sought it.

Abhinandan: Yeah.

Raman: Yes, sir. The three [01:41:00] good, uh, Articles in the last week, uh, one is our own paywall story, uh, on Dharavi redevelopment by Shweta Desai. So, uh, basically, uh, the survey has started over there. Adani is the one who are executing this project, but, uh, people who are staying over there, they are seeing that dream that, you know, uh, they will get an alternative house somewhere else.

But now when the B they have started, you know, submitting their applications to the BMC at all. So they are finding that on some, uh, little ground, sometimes flimsy grounds. They are not, they are, uh, you know, sort of illegally staying in Dharavi. So they may not get

Abhinandan: the houses that have been promised.

Alright.

Raman: Yeah. So 60% of them fall in that category. So imagine the population of Ravi and 60% of them are not getting [01:42:00] benefited. I see.

Abhinandan: See, yeah. This is the complication. Even in Delhi, the Bais Uhhuh, you know, 'cause Bais have their own little mafias. Yeah. I mean, the guys net worth will probably be, you know, not even, you know, six months salary of someone in my position, but.

In his context, he's a don. Right. So they have like 10 Jhuggis. Right. And they've given them on rent for anything from 5, 000 bucks to 12, 15, 000 bucks. Now, if that Jhuggi is demolished and each of those is 10, we will give you a flat in Dwarka. Those 8 people won't get it. Yeah, it's lovely. Because they are, because they are, Rented it to this guy, he will probably get in those bi army there.

And these guys have been living here for like 30 years. 30. But so it's, yeah, it's comp. Even re rehabilitation

Raman: is complicated. Ah, so 60% of them are affecting, you know, um, so far. Then, uh, there was a good editorial, I think yesterday or day before, uh, in the Indian Express. On BSP, it's,

Abhinandan: oh yeah. I, I on express.

Raman: Correct. It was, uh, I [01:43:00] mean, I had not seen for a long time, see there were

Abhinandan: two pieces. One was written by Raj Yday about how ti still relevant and there was one the next day Yeah. Where, saying that she has made her own irrelevance possible.

Raman: Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the second first one appeared on Sunday.

Abhinandan: Yeah.

Yeah. The next one was on Monday. Then Monday.

Raman: Monday it must be Monday. So that is, uh, giving, I mean, when the elections are around the corner and BSP used to be so important, uh, in, uh, Indian politics. So I think very good perspective and why it is declining. So it's a good, uh, good, uh, editorial. Then the third is, uh, you know, in Hindu, the curious case of Susama Ipe and the Vaichur Cow by Shashi Tharoor.

I really loved his article primarily because when this woman, Susama, when she got the Padam Bhushan award. It was said that for the cow [01:44:00] development, I thought maybe it is one of the BJP propaganda that cow thing is. So I had a mindset. So I, I just passed that information because there was nothing much written about it.

But after reading,

Abhinandan: it

Raman: was completely a determined mind, which thought, so, so I just let it be. But when I read this article and Shashi Tharoor, he told her story. I mean, how, when she was a child and how they, or, or somebody else in the, uh, family and mother used to give milk of, which, uh, And she vividly remembered it was so good.

But after this Jersey cows, uh, the, the, the, uh, change, uh, change and the entire thing. So, so, so they started looking forward to her. So they spotted one, then the second, then the third, and then how they saved the entire thing. Uh, very interesting. I mean, story of animal husbandry. Uh, so I, I [01:45:00] really loved it.

Shashi Tharoor wrote for in Hindu. Um, I think tomorrow, yesterday or day before.

Abhinandan: So I actually have no recommendations this week other than all the electoral bond stories that I recommend you please read. My last week has been, much of it has been spent with lawyers and chartered accountants and income tax notices.

And the podcast I've heard nothing quite like it. Particularly remarkable comes to mind. So I will recommend news laundry stuff, and I will recommend you subscribe and pay to keep news free. This podcast has been produced by wonderful producer Aryan. Aryan, please let everybody see you so they can see who also produced the Kashmir podcast.

That's Aryan, right? Thank you. It has been recorded by Aryan. Anil, uh, and we shall leave you with this song that you have never heard of before and you will never hear of again. But it is a song which re rag pass one. And he made his Bollywood debut. So sometimes someone should listen to it. So why not On Hafta now?

Enjoy and a fantastic [01:46:00] weekend.

Beanie, beanie, bushabushy, jaggey re Aa mere paas aa bhi jaa Halkasa pehkasa hai mann mera Halkasa pehkasa hai tad mera Dilkash hai ada teri, sun le du sada meri Aa jaa, baahon me aa Wake up now, wake up now Come to the party now Aadhi aadhi aadhi, come to

me

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