Hafta 480: Indian think tanks, Congress’s inevitability, ‘Ram’ in election campaigns

This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, and Jayashree Arunachalam are joined by policy researcher Yamini Aiyar and senior journalist Rasheed Kidwai. 

On the challenges facing think tanks in India, Yamini says working in policy has “moved from jholawala inputs to suit-boot inputs” over the years, referring to the increased corporatisation.  

The panel then discusses the Congress manifesto, and the party’s relevance in the upcoming elections. Abhinandan asks, “Is the Congress inevitable?” Rasheed says the grand old party is “not a dead body. It is very much alive and kicking.” 

The conversation then moves on to the controversy around Ramayana fame actor Arun Govil campaigning in Meerut with a photograph of the deity Ram. On the use of religion for votes, Rasheed says it’s “not an issue” for voters in India. 

This and a whole lot more. Tune in!

Hafta letters: Modi vs Rahul, biases, mainstream media

Watch it here.

We have a page for subscribers to send letters to our shows. If you want to write to Hafta, click here. 

Check out the Newslaundry store and flaunt your love for independent media. 

Download the Newslaundry app.

General elections are around the corner, and Newslaundry and The News Minute have ambitious plans. Click here to support us.

Song: Saathi Haath Badhana

Timecodes

00:07:09 - Policy research in India 

00: 17:41 - Headlines

00:27:09 - Think tanks in India 

00:38:13 - Is the Congress inevitable?

00:59:50 - Use of religion in election campaign 

01:22:31 - Letters

01:55:19 - Recommendations 

References

General Elections 2024 Fund

On evidence, policy-making, and critiquing it in a polarised polity

Techno-welfare – delivered by Modi: How cash transfers are manufacturing political power in India

24 Akbar Road

The House of Scindias: A Saga of Power, Politics and Intrigue

Neta Abhineta: Bollywood Star Power in Indian Politics

BJP Kuki MLA Paolienlal Haokip on crime against women in Manipur, governments' action | NL Interview

Sitaram Yechury on caste, China and ‘anti-Dalit’ communists | What’s Your Ism

Recommendations

Yamini

The Origins of Totalitarianism 

Rasheed

The Contenders 

Manisha

ANI’s news business: ‘PR’ contracts with CMs, podcasts and a quest for power

High coverage, high enrollment, but a persistent ‘health protection gap’: Evaluating Modi’s PMJAY

Jayashree

The Cooking of Books : A Literary Memoir 

Out of thin air: the mystery of the man who fell from the sky

Abhinandan 

How the 'shadow fleet' helps Russia skirt sanctions

Rwanda genocide: My return home after 30 years

Check out our previous Hafta recommendations.

Produced and recorded by Priyali Dhingra, edited by Samarendra K Dash and Umrav Singh. 

480 Audio

Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NFTA

Abhinandan: News, hafta. Welcome to another episode of hafta. We are recording this at 4:00 PM on Thursday, the 11th of April, and today is Eid, so IID to everybody. Eid Mubarak. Yes. So let me introduce the panel. But before I do that, this hafta will also be free. It's not behind the paywall. And the whole thing will be available on video on YouTube as well.

Uh, we will be putting stuff behind the paywall, I think, closer to the end of the election, because a lot of, uh, people who are up for it, Part of our subscriber base and even within the organization feel that, uh, we should have as little stuff as possible behind the paywall. Uh, I will keep pushing to put stuff behind the paywall because we have to sign checks and until you pull stuff behind the paywall, many of you don't pay.[00:01:00] 

So I'm hoping that will incentivize you, but those of you who pay just because Journalism should not be funded by government ads or large corporations. I'm hoping you will. The link for our election fund projects is in the show notes below. We have a total of, I think, seven funds. Three have been topped up.

Four still need to be topped up. And more important than that, Tell friends of yours, relatives, to subscribe and pay to keep news free because when the public pays, the public is served. When advertisers pay, advertisers are served and you will see till the end of elections. Uh, there'll be a lot of advertising by those close to certain political parties and governments and Sarkari ads.

So on that note, in the studio with me, let me introduce our guest first is Yamini Iyer. Hi Yamini. Hi, thank you for having me. Yes. Pleasure. First time you've come for Hafta, no? Yes. Wow. Okay. Though we've 

Manisha: called her on many occasions. 

Abhinandan: Oh, right. Finally, you make it here. So, Yamini is the former [00:02:00] president and chief executive of the Center for Policy Research, CPR.

Her research interests lie in the field of social policy and development. She's a TED fellow, also founding member of the International Experts Panel of the Open Government Partnership. She's been a member of the World Economic Forum's Global Council on Good Governance, The pieces of hers that you can read in the links below.

One is on evidence, policymaking, and critiquing it in a polarized polity. This is in the Deccan Herald. And the second is techno welfare delivery by Modi, how cash transfers are manufacturing political power in India. This is on Scroll. The links to both pieces are in the Yamini. Thank you. So what keeps you busy now other than writing?

That's it. 

Yamini: There's a lot to write about, isn't there? And to chat with you guys. 

Abhinandan: Yes. Also in the studio, Manisha Pandey, who is going to be heading, adding more costs to a already struggling news laundry. When are you heading out? 

Manisha: Uh, 17th. Going to 

Abhinandan: Kerala first. Wow, the most expensive [00:03:00] ticket. Let's go to Sri Lanka.

The cheapest. Yes, 

Manisha: very expensive. I remember seeing it. We did have thoughts about it. It's cheaper going to Sri Lanka. But then you said that's your problem. How does it matter to 

Abhinandan: us? It's not my problem, huh? So, yeah. No, but I think No, so we're 

Manisha: going to be there, uh, and Dhanya is going to be joining us. So we're going to be doing a couple of shows from Kerala and 

Abhinandan: Karnataka, both.

Dhanya is to Bangalore, Kerala, the flight ticket isn't that much hamare liye. Dekhe, ab kaun de gaye paisa? And producer bhi Priyali, our wonderful producer, also accompanying her. 

Manisha: And we already have reporters in Rajasthan, Bihar, 

Abhinandan: Assam, and Western UP. I hope they walked. I hope they walked there. They took trains.

They took trains? Chalo. Hum gareebon ki We're doing the second on unreserved We're doing the middle class election coverage, not by flight. 

Yamini: No, you should be doing the Vande Bharat election coverage. No, we didn't 

Manisha: let them take Rajdhani Vande Bharat. We said you should travel like the regulars do. Yeah.

Abhinandan: Joining us [00:04:00] online is, uh Our very own Jayshree who joins from her hometown of 

Jayashree: Chennai. Hello, hello. And I am costing you no money this election. I will stay put. No ticket expenses 

Abhinandan: for me. Very nice. Thank you. See, that's the kind of person we need. News laundry needs more Jayshrees who can just sit in one place and pelo gyaan.

And also joining us is Rashid Kidwai. Welcome Rashid. 

Rasheed: Hello. Yeah. It's a pleasure being 

Abhinandan: here. Where are you joining us from? 

Rasheed: I'm in Bhopal 

Abhinandan: now. Oh, you're in Bhopal. I see. Bhopal has some very good naan khatai and also, uh, uh, biryani. 

Rasheed: Yes, yes. I think, uh, there are a lot of things are there, but the city is very, uh, peaceful, not so much politically, but, uh, You know, social and environment, A very peaceful tower.

Abhinandan: Yes, that it is. I agree. For those of you who don't know Rashid, he's a senior journalist. He's author, a political analyst. He's a visiting fellow with the Observer Research Foundation. He tracks [00:05:00] Indian government political parties and Hindi Cinema. So which these days is very close. It's very political.

This is the most political Hindi cinema has been a long time. And unfortunately, the circumstances that we are in right now, he's authored several books, among them 24 Akbar Road, The House of Sindhiya, The Saga of Power, Politics and Intrigue, and Neta Abhineta, Bollywood Star Power in Indian Politics. I must check this last one out.

I'm going to order that. I'll order your Neta Bhi Neta. Sounds very interesting. So thank you for joining us, Rashid. Uh, before we get into the headlines, which Jayshree will give us just quickly, because we have both policy wonks here. Policy is a very good space these days. I have heard, I don't know if it's true.

I heard from Manisha and with journalists like her, you never know if it's true or not, that there will be soon launching a, a think tank by Adani. There's a lot of hair. It will be called Chintan 

Manisha: Research Foundation with a corpus of 100 

Abhinandan: crores. CRF. Okay, ORF. So that if C CRF for [00:06:00] ORF. And half of it missing.

So, dude, you guys will have jobs to choose. There'll be a bidding war, yaar, for policy wonks. a newsletter. Is it going to be 

Manisha: that exciting? I'm also 

Abhinandan: thinking, I'll also write a paper on this. I'll keep signing cheques for these two to tour Kerala. What do you think, Rashid, is the policy stuff really heating up?

Rasheed: I think it's a, it's one area that, uh, uh, it's very upcoming, but a lot of application is required. I think when, uh, sort of a business house decides it has to have some kind of, uh, you know, sense of detachment in terms of how our government is functioning, how policies are actually, you know, formulated. So if you look at the history of other think tanks in India, they basically were non political.

Even they were partially funded by corporate houses and all. There's a long history and there's a lot of, uh, I would say, uh, highs and lows, uh, till they arrived. So it's not like, uh, you know, setting up a media house. So it's far more complicated. [00:07:00] 

Abhinandan: I see. So, but these days everything is so political. I mean, even ready make my trip is whatever is my trip.

Who was that? Who was, who weighed in on foreign policy that we will not book tickets to Maldives or Mauritius or whoever. What do you think Yamini? Is it 

Yamini: something that So, I'm on a sabbatical. I'm taking a break from from the world of policy. No, but I think look, there are several layers to this that are worth unpacking.

There's no question that as Policy is a complicated animal, and in a democratic context, policy should never be left just to the technocrats, uh, the mandarins sitting in North Bloc, South Bloc, uh, and state capitals across the country to make policy. Um, it, uh, in a democratic context, the multiplicities of voices of different kinds, whether social movements or technocratic policy think tanks, etc.

that bring expertise into the on into the high table where [00:08:00] decisions are made are important because after all, how else do you get feedback? How else do you understand complexities of decisions? How else do you negotiate? And ultimately, good politic policy is also about good policy. politics because every policy will have winners and losers and it requires degrees of negotiation.

So to have more is always a good thing. More expert institutions, more spaces where dialogue takes place. The question is, uh, to what extent are these going to follow fundamental first principles? Good evidence based research requires you to have the full freedom, the full intellectual freedom, the full academic freedom, to be able to ask questions that will make everybody hot under the collar, not very different to journalism, that's our job.

And in the process of asking these questions with completely unbiased lenses, have the freedom and flexibility to go collect evidence and find answers. And often those answers are not going to be the answers that you started out with. [00:09:00] All research has bias in the sense that there are set, there are frameworks, there are ideological frameworks, there are theoretical frameworks within which you exactly, uh, but you have to arrive at using empirical evidence and.

Um, and arguments and reasoning arrive at sets of conclusions, right? So to have the freedom to do all of that. Now if we, um, the, the, the whole thing hinges on the extent to which these freedoms are preserved. Um, the financing of research of what think tanks, uh, uh, do has, is, is a complex issue. So where do you, after all research is expensive, state funding, um, and, and, and, and, um, Corporate funding.

There are many examples across the world. Even you look at universities, uh, big capital backs this. Uh, and then there's a degree of quote unquote crowdsourcing funding, but research is an extreme expensive proposition. Increasingly. So as methods of collecting data have become more and more sophisticated, it requires high levels of skills.

It requires large numbers of people. So the resources question has been a complex one in India. [00:10:00] We've never, we had state funding for research, uh, but actually the social in the social sciences, this has always been very. Very limited tradition historically. In fact, I think that's been one of the big failures of higher education in India.

There has been a lot more focus on teaching in the university structure and far less on actually building out research centers, research centers, like the one I used to head the Center for Policy Research. It was basically for PhD folks sitting there. Folks who in any other context would probably have been part of a research center in a university, but in our structure that doesn't exist.

Right? So you create this think 

Abhinandan: tank structure and, and, and cprs predominantly its funding was. From it was dependent on just a handful of. 

Yamini: So here's the thing. So state funding has always been limited in the course of the nineties and two thousands and became heavily bureaucratized to the point where process was all that it was.

And it became very difficult to actually have genuine flexibility. And, uh, you know, this was not necessarily on principles of academic freedom alone, but it was just excessive bureaucracy. [00:11:00] The license Raj that Indian industry wanted to free itself off. was very much prevalent in Indian academia. I mean, it's literally, there are scores, there was a scoring, there's a scoring system for how you hire, there's limited flexibility, our bureaucracy operates on one size fit all, that is the structure that was brought into this funding.

The other space that really opened up, historically, India has had a deep tradition of global philanthropy in India, which set up some of our best institutions, Ford Foundation, came on invitation by Pandit Nehru back in the day, and actually gave core endowment funding for all the institutions that we, uh, proudly say are ours, IITs, IIMs, you name it.

Okay. And, and in fact, to build good institutions. So the endowments that came from Ford Foundation. It came from Ford Foundation, uh, to build good institutes. So, so who are the big funders that created institutions in this, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, there was, there was a pocket full of Indian industrialists, the Tata's being the most significant.

And then the Ford Foundation, I mean, there isn't an institution in India that we put [00:12:00] proudly call ours, that hasn't at some point received some kind of endowment fund of that nature. In the 2000s with Silicon Valley funding coming into sort of global philanthropy, Gates Foundation being a big example over time, several others, Hewlett or Mediar, you name it, the scale of global philanthropy expanded significantly, but Indian private capital was a lot less generous with its pockets in that it wasn't thinking in the institution building frame of what the Tata's did in fact in the in those early days.

I think that 

Abhinandan: at least from I have seen, read, observed the the Parsis of Bombay seem a lot less motivated in their philanthropy than You know, many others, 

Yamini: you know, it's also like, um, maybe it's a Parsi thing. I don't know, but it's also that we kind of conflated charitable activity with the equivalent of philanthropy.

This institution building imagination was very limited to some degree. [00:13:00] Our Bangalore Silicon Valley folks kind of came into play a little bit, uh, in the late 2000s. Probably, you know, looking to the example that was set by all the big Silicon Valley philanthropies, Gates, uh, now there's, uh, some, uh, I mean, there's many of them, but I mean, so, so it meant that a lot of Indian research institutions and think tanks ended up just because of the limitations of state funding became quite reliant on global philanthropy coming through the infomercials.

FCRA. Mm. Um, and private, which 

Abhinandan: canceled the last few 

Yamini: years. Oh wow.

So that, that was one thing. And then, you know, there's been little smattering of corporate philanthropy or if as an example, uh, you know, setting up of, you know, private universities, that's where a lot of private capital went. Less so in this. so called think tank space. Although this idea that you need to have [00:14:00] technocrats, you know, from the outside engaging with government, uh, private capital very strongly believes that the Indian bureaucracy has too many generalists.

You can't be thinking of telecom and data and falana falana. There are truths to all of this, but in the, the, the Ultimately, the big question that India is facing today. So our current government, which is likely to be our next government, is, uh, has framed the narrative. So we've, in our, the FCRA law came in the late 1970s, there's always been this tension between foreign funding and what it does to quote unquote, national interests, the invisible and sometimes very visible foreign hand, by the way, green revolution happened largely through research funding that came from foreign funding, but for foundation.

Anyway, there is no, uh, I would welcome the Indian private capital to contribute heavily into philanthropy and the Indian state to get rid of its shackles and start financing research both in the sciences and the humanities [00:15:00] better. There is no country can enter the 21st century without all of this, but we have to remember principles.

If research gets funded through big corporate houses in ways that then require that research to give up on its principles, then we are in for a very difficult time. But I think that's 

Abhinandan: inevitable. We can watch NDTV to 

Manisha: surmise. 

Abhinandan: No, because the world we live in is like, I don't think that motivation earlier, a lot of research, news, anything was not tied to the interests of whoever was giving the money.

Today, I think there's such an inevitability to that, that I've stopped even hoping for that. But so sorry, 

Yamini: just can I just quickly close two seconds that there are two things, corporate philanthropy, uh, that has agendas, funding research. You see this even in Washington, okay. So in the think tank community, it is what the profession, the lines that the profession chooses to draw for itself.

So this is for. People like us to think about as, as members of the profession. But secondly, also what we don't have in [00:16:00] India, which, which America has is laws that allow you to register as a lobbyist. Okay. Then there is complete transparency. There is a difference between lobbying, which is a perfectly legitimate activity and between being an independent, nonpartisan expert voice on sets of issues, which may or may not be backed, backed by certain kinds of financing and the ideas of conflict of interest should be clearly laid out.

Then we are in an okay place. But absent that, we really risk the gray zones. And as you say, given the current environment, the gray zones are self evident. 

Abhinandan: Generalists, I mean, even, um, I mean, I don't really have a position on that. And we'll, you know, I think we'll come back to the discussion in more detail after the headlines.

McKinsey is also a generalist. But yet they charge shitloads to restructure your businesses, et cetera. But they're all just like someone who's, you know, written a report on a manufacturing plant that is making vegetable oil will next year be writing one on, you know, streamlining processes in eco tourism or something.

So [00:17:00] in some places it is seen as. highly accomplished professionals in the bureaucracy. It's not seen as that what determines that, you know, we can discuss a little more detail, but first let's get the headlines. Cause then I would like to go to Rashid on two things. One is since you've written so much on the Congress, I've, uh, I was attending a, a book, uh, launch news X editorial director, I think she is a Priya Sehgal on contenders and, uh, Panelists Pawan Varma, Abhishek Manusinghe and Ram Madhav and it was interesting about the Congress and its role.

So we'll come back to Rashid on that. And of course, there's a policy wonk, but first, uh, Jayashree will give us the headlines and Manisha will give us the little extra after that. 

Jayashree: What a fun time it's been. So in a major setback to Arvind Kejriwal, the Delhi High Court has dismissed his petition against the EDA arrest.

The Delhi CM has now moved 

the 

Abhinandan: Supreme Court. [00:18:00] And in fact, as we speak this morning, they have also removed the Bibha Kumar on this obscure rule. I mean, The level at which they're going to crush up. No, and 

Shailendra 

Yamini: Sharma, who is the, uh, Special Appointee. I forgot exactly what his title was, but he played a pivotal role in some of the education reforms.

And he wasn't even 

Abhinandan: taking a salary. No, 

Yamini: he wasn't taking a salary. I mean, they're just, it's just. That and this, Tariq pe Tariq pe Tariq. So petty, they are. In related news, BRS leader K 

Jayashree: Kavita, who is currently in judicial custody under ED arrest, was arrested by the CBI. 

Abhinandan: While in jail. While in jail. 

Jayashree: Right. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court hit out at Patanjali yet again, rejected a second set of apologies filed by Ramdev and Balkrishna for misleading ads.

It says, the court said, we are not blind. And it also hit out at the Uttarakhand Licensing Authority saying, we will 

Yamini: rip you 

Abhinandan: apart. What does that mean? I'm just saying, like, I mean, we will rip you apart is very harsh words for a court, not a Supreme Court. I'd be 

Jayashree: scared. I would say that, you know, as fun as it is to see sort of [00:19:00] Patanjali get into trouble and get ripped apart and all those things, I think you should also, I think it really reminds us of what a colossal muck up COVID management was, like a mess of unprecedented proportions, both commission and omission.

And I feel like this major sin that we constantly see in India today is these insane sort of pseudoscientific lies that have fooled so many people and have also led to deaths. And like, even my very enlightened state of Tamil Nadu is not exempt from this. The DMK during COVID was doling out Siddha Ayurvedic treatments like Abhishek Kudrinir.

The only difference being that it wasn't backed by a major company like Patanjali. And so therefore there was no crony capitalism here, but it was still bad enough. 

Abhinandan: So no, but to that point, I thought you would say, you would go on to say that, you know, that they should crack down on all FMCG who make fraudulent claims, which 

Yamini: is, this is like, this 

Jayashree: is the first step that they should be taking in this entire thing, because we are seeing so much of it.

And like so many of my family believes implicitly in the idea of Patanjali and how it's safer and healthier and so on. So, yeah. But, 

Abhinandan: uh, but I will say that, [00:20:00] um, Arnab did this full show that, you know, Supreme Court has done this. Now they, maybe they should do something on other website because none of them want to protect Babaji because they look bad.

But, well, that's what they want to do because we saw what Babaji did on Republic's show, picking up Arnab and they should have just, yeah, giggling. All they needed to do was do some cuddlies and say, we love each other so much. I will come and learn from you. The strength should be 

Yamini: like 

Rasheed: this, look like this.

Yamini: Laughing 

Rasheed: Amazing, very good Same thing 

Abhinandan: on India Today, Oh baba ji, you are so great, 

Manisha: etc He's the first guy to give cure, this 

Abhinandan: was said on TV So they don't want to say oh how dare you, so they say what about the rest So that is news in India today. I want to say to you, how many of them advertise on your show?

Nam bol na. Itna hi concern hai. Nam bol apne show pe. 

Jayashree: Right. Next, the Congress launched its [00:21:00] manifesto where reiterated promises made earlier, such as a nationwide caste census and legal guarantee of MSP. It's also promised to scrap Agnipath, restore J& K's statehood. and launch a Mahalakshmi scheme to provide one lakh per year to one woman in every poor household.

Modi said it reflects the thinking of the Muslim 

Abhinandan: League. I don't see how, but yeah. Next, 

Jayashree: the CST's pre poll survey is out, which points to unemployment and inflation being key issues this general election. More than half of respondents expressed concerns pertaining to price rise and fewer jobs 

Abhinandan: in the country.

Are you surprised, anyone? That's the main issue. Unemployment. The media didn't make it so, but it was 

Yamini: there even in the India Today polls, if you remember. The India Today Seawater poll had unemployment as a top headline. 

Jayashree: In other unsurprising news, a report by ADR revealed that 16 percent of the candidates in the first phase of the Lok Sabha polls have criminal cases against them.

Of this, 36 percent are from the BJP and 34 percent from the Congress. Right. In Jammu and Kashmir, after failing to [00:22:00] reach a settlement with its India Alliance ally, the NDC, the PDP has fielded candidates in all three seats in the Kashmir Valley. Mahbuba Maftia said they are forced to go solo now.

Ramayana actor and BJP candidate Arun Govil faced backlash for going against EC norms and campaigning with a framed photograph 

Yamini: of Lord 

Abhinandan: Ram. That's an interesting conversation that should you be allowed to use religion while Contesting election, but we'll come back to that later in the show. I want to get the panel's view on that.

Jayashree: Days after the YouTube channel of Bolta Hindustan was taken off the platform after a notice by the INB ministry, the digital news portal National Dastak said the ministry has also asked YouTube to remove their channel. And another outfit called Article 19 also received a similar notice. 

Abhinandan: And, uh, but a lot of these tractor trailers, you know, the farm protest Twitter accounts have been reinstated just before Mr.

Musk comes here. So I'm wondering how and why they were reinstated. 

Manisha: I didn't, I didn't 

Jayashree: catch that headline. In [00:23:00] Manipur, 11 months after ethnic violence broke out, Prime Minister Modi has said in an interview that the timely intervention of the state of the center, along with efforts by the state government.

led to a marked improvement in the situation. This is called You can 

Manisha: read, you can watch his, BJP MLA's interview on News Laundry, who said that the PM's silence is troubling, back at the peak of the violence. So their own MLA would disagree 

Abhinandan: with this. This is called, I don't know how you pronounce the word, chutzpah, it's not chutzpah, no?

This is how it was, how it was defined in Haider. Chutzpah. 

Yamini: And one 

Manisha: thing interesting to note about Modi's interviews pre, before the election is he has not spoken to any of the Godi ones till now. Yeah. Tanti TV, then Assign Tribune, and today he met some gamers he's chatting with, but he's not given any interview to the usual suspects so 

Yamini: He also 

Jayashree: spoke to Newsweek, which 

Manisha: was passed off as an interview, but it was my diary, my 

Jayashree: thoughts.

And in Kerala, the Idukki Diocese screened the Kerala story for [00:24:00] children in classes 10 to 12 to spread awareness against love jihad. This is. days after the chief minister said Doordarshan should not screen the film. 

Abhinandan: So church versus church. And 

Jayashree: some other elite Christians, like so called Syrian Christians have always been very Islamophobic.

I think one of the earliest users of this entire love jihad bogey came from, came from them because the church is very insular and very worried about, you know, the people from the flock marrying outside, especially women, because how dare women marry out of the fold. So I think then they've done the stupid thing of placing all their bets on the BJP because they say we have a shed.

sort of enemy, but then they don't realize that the BJP's enemy is also the Christians, albeit to a much smaller degree. It's a very beautifully 

Yamini: short sighted 

Manisha: plan. Although that's what they did in Goa too, with Manohar Parrikar. He actively wooed the Christian community there and they were supposed to be a big chunk of their voter.

Jayashree: Then Modi made his seventh visit to Tamil Nadu this week. There was also a war of words between sundry politicians. Dayanidhi Manon called Annamalai a joker and said, who is that? Modi hit back that the BJP, that [00:25:00] the DMK is very arrogant, you know, the AIADMK also made its first direct attack on Modi with EPS saying his visits are of no use.

Manisha: Irrespective of Annamalai's future, it's never nice when politicians say, who's that? And it never ends well. Sheila Dixit's comment with Arvind Kejriwal. You've had recently Mayawati's nephew also on the question of Chandrashekhar saying, who's that? Firstly, we know who you know, they are. So it's very, you know, but it's very not 

Yamini: genuine also.

It's very childish, but it 

Jayashree: really hurts. So it's a very 

Manisha: little, it would hurt me also if someone says, who's what's news laundries, a lot of, a lot of people in the media do that. News laundries, what is 

Abhinandan: this? It makes a fuck all difference. 

Jayashree: Anyway, next, um, six years after the arrest, the Supreme Nagpur University professor, Shoma Sen, who was arrested and charged under the UPA, UAPA, sorry.

Elgar 

Abhinandan: case shocking. Just the, this entire case and the amount of time, [00:26:00] it's, 

Manisha: it's process 

Yamini: punishment or takes it to a whole 

Jayashree: other degree. The NCRT has deleted at least three references to the RI master demolition from CBS's class 12 textbook. The lesson now gives primacy to the round bumi movement, and 

Manisha: it's How do you, how are they talking about ramji and bui movement without talking about ri maji?

Like why was there a movement in the first place? Nation? There was no mosque 

Yamini: without talking about. 

Jayashree: Delhi minister Raj Kumar Anand resigned from his post and the Aam Aadmi Party on Wednesday over the issue of alleged corruption within the party. 

Manisha: He has not joined the BJP yet, but we have lots of hafte ki agla badli.

You are a former Congress MLA, Gangajal Meel and PCC Vice President Sushil Sharma. Who joined the BJP in Rajasthan. Uttarakhand, a former cabinet minister Agarwal switched from Congress to the BJP. Former Union Minister Birender Singh on Monday quit the BJP and returned to the Congress. This is after a gap of 10 years.

With his wife. In Gujarat, Rohan Gupta, who is a former Congress spokesman. Spokesperson joined the [00:27:00] BJP on 

Abhinandan: Thursday. Yep. So that's the lovely of the week, but this Anand, the ARP minister from Delhi, his resignation apparently hasn't reached the speaker yet, so I'm not sure what's happening, but thank you for the headlines for the week.

Yes. Yes. Thank you for the headlines. And, uh, we shall now get into the discussions. So Rashid, uh, two questions. One is. On policy, um, how much generalists, how the bureaucracy versus consultants, McKinsey, both are generalists, but one is considered very smart. The other is not so much, or they are smart, but not so desirable.

Secondly, a little, uh, anecdote from several years ago, about, I think seven, eight years ago, there is a very large conference that happens every year. It's a media related conference. I'm not going to media rumble. It's about 100 times bigger than media number. It's huge. It has media entertainment. It has news.

It has Evo and every year report is prepared of that by one of the big four or big six or whoever it is. You know, these big consultants and a friend of mine whose suit at that time [00:28:00] was more than my monthly salary came and had lunch with me. Which I paid for and said, well, tell me about media. You know, you've been in broadcast, you started digital labor.

So over lunch I just bullshitted for about an hour, hour and a half. And I told him what all I understood about the media. Uh, then when I saw the report that came out, he had just basically, I think he must have spoken two other people like me. And he had prepared, he had not even brought to change this intax of the shit I said.

I was like, dude, this is how they're preparing reports and charging. enough to buy those suits, then maybe Newslaundry should pivot and start preparing reports or conferences. So yeah. So tell me about what is your take on the role of policy of think tanks? How fair it is? To expect them to be non partisan or non motivated and after I'll come to the Congress question.

Yeah, 

Rasheed: so I think, uh, on a question of think tanks and policies, it's very, uh, clear, of course, Yamini has elaborated in a, you [00:29:00] know, broadly what has been a sort of historical context and how things are, you know, working at all. Real, uh, I think, uh, for till this, this, you know, globalization started and the several, uh, I won't say wasted interest.

Several lobbies have been at work and there is a tendency to not to tell what to think, but what to think about. And that is being a real, uh, sort of, you know, scope of it. So the people are, uh, more or less things are, uh, it's being done to create some kind of informed choice or, uh, uh, give a perspective of things to come.

And that is where, uh, a lot of consultants are there and, uh, Policy matters are highlighted, but I don't think the bureaucracy has lost control. At the end of the day, it is the Indian bureaucracy that IAS officers were actually calling shorts. They get a lot of papers from a lot of people, but they would do things and they tailor made and politicians are, uh, I would say, uh, I've [00:30:00] seen a lot of politicians and a lot of ministers at the end of the day, their subject knowledge or their domain expertise is very little.

So they're guided by, uh, Uh, by the IAS lobby. So the IAS lobby, which is falling short, even now, there are a lot of consultants out there in government of India, uh, uh, many management, you know, gurus are there, but still, uh, the policy initiatives has been, uh, remain a sole domain of the IAS. But, 

Abhinandan: so are you saying think tanks are disguised unemployment?

They don't have impact. They're just, they're just, they're getting a salary. Is it Mandrega for intellectuals? 

Rasheed: Well, let me research. Think tanks offer a lot of quality research. You are asking me how much is it influenced? I mean, uh, How much they are influencing the government thinking or government policy initiatives in that sense?

I'm saying government Let's say if government of india has a lot of people from you know Sanitization to water problem to food to agriculture to everything but the pick and choose it's not that you know Think tanks are giving a lot of [00:31:00] uh Uh, you know, quality in the search papers to, to the government of India, government of India is implementing it.

They pick and choose. So there's a lot of criticism that 

Abhinandan: is at work. Hi, so you were saying, 

Yamini: so just two things, because you asked a question that is just so tempting to jump into is something that I've thought about. And by the way, to, at the risk of self promotion also written about, and I'll send you the link to add to this because the really biggest, so I think there are two things.

One is the question of, are we just NREGA for, uh, so called intellectuals? You know, That's not a bad thing, because the whole what makes for a robust public sphere and what makes for a good democracy is contestation of ideas. Our job is to use our skills to contribute to that process, which also has a link to the policymaking process.

I would like to share my data, my understanding of that. It's not my job to actually do the job of government. Government has to take input and ultimately arrive at its conclusions. And you have to be there for the long duration. So big ideas, for [00:32:00] example, one of the most important questions we build schools, children are not learning.

Do we first accept that idea? And how do we think about it? That came into the public discourse because an independent research organization, an NGO that work in the space of this, of education for 10 years, repeatedly. Subtly, every year was putting out a survey telling you that 50 percent of children going to standard five can barely read a standard two this is important work which should add to changing the terms of the discourse, how the answers come, is a process.

Secondly, on this question of consultants, the biggest change in the many decades, as has been that it suddenly move from Jhulawala inputs to suited Bhootwada inputs. Okay. And the cost of their inputs, the price of the inputs, as you say, the suit is more expensive than not just your monthly salary, but I would say six month salary.

Okay. I, you know, and, and it is, uh, so, so where is this coming from? I, you know, I, I jokingly often say that the McKinsey guy knows how to make that PowerPoint presentation much better than [00:33:00] any of us Jholawala types, which is why the McKinsey guy is there getting all the big contracts and the rest of us are not, okay?

Just a joke. But there is an element of truth in it. Over decades, the biggest challenge that the Indian bureaucracy faces and frankly our Indian politicians of all hues has been this complete atrophy of the court. capability of the Indian state to get basic things done. There are many reasons for it.

State capacity has now become an area of study for folks like me, and it means that when a bureaucrat comes in and is trying to find answers to problems, they are kind of looking to see what is the quickest way in which I can get input, and they draw on these sort Suited, booted folks to be able to get that input.

They see these as le, it is a legitimate part and parcel of the process. What is happening, which is, which we should debate a lot more, is what does this mean then? A, for the project of building capacity of state should basic functions of state from preparing an RFP to preparing A-P-P-T-B, the job of an outsourced big four?

Or should this be about strengthening the capacities of [00:34:00] from the local state Carter all the way up to the IS. The second question is what happens then to questions of accountability. We are beginning so much, you know, there was this framework of new public management that came in in a big way in how we think about public administration reform, which looked at private sector principles of management as a way to do it.

And contracting out was a big thing that we adopted. That means that if a, if a task is hard, instead of bringing in the skills, you contract out and bring it in from the McKinsey's and gang. And that contracting out has huge accountability questions because a suited booted guy will come do their job and go off to the next project.

But ultimately, 

Abhinandan: there was an interesting, um, documentary research based, which the BBC did almost 15, 20 years ago. I'll see if I can pull it out. But, um, ladies, uh, Jessie and Manisha on the role of. think tanks and, you know, policy framing, paper writing organizations, uh, you want to weigh in before we get into the political discourse.

I have a quick 

Jayashree: question. I mean, mostly because I'm very unfamiliar with the [00:35:00] policy space. So I guess my question is when you're talking about, I mean, Sounds very frustrating, right? When you're saying that you're contracting things out or that people are picking and choosing areas of research or they're picking and choosing research that exists.

So I guess my question is that has, is this dramatically changing? Like, has it changed a lot in the last 10 years? Or is this just the state of policy and study and so on in India today? Like, is that 

Abhinandan: how it's always been? Rashid, you want to take that? 

Rasheed: I think I think a lot of quality people are coming. It is not that, but it is just, uh, you, uh, you know, that kind of application is very subjective and that is where there's a problem.

You look at, I'll tell you, uh, for instance, uh, you know, the Congress was in power. I mean, uh, the UPA, when it was in power, it lead very heavily on policy matters, uh, on the institution called NAC, the National Advisory Council. Right. And, uh, They got a lot of input, some very quality, some controversial, all of thing.

But in the end of the day, and when I look back, I find you see, uh, co congress [00:36:00] became poorer because no big idea came from 24 Road. There were no roots. Whatever the, you know, uh, sort of say the NC was offering to them, you know, the mix of, uh, you know, and policymakers and so very bright people. But the Congress part, it lacked that kind of, you know, stakeholders interest.

So therefore, if you look at, uh, UP , particularly the second one, it politically did not benefit. It just went, you know, sort of drift continued and it was a, a sort of, you know, downhill, uh, sort of journey. So therefore, I'm saying that, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, policy papers are very good. Uh, for the political party or for the government, if it is bringing some kind of, uh, electoral benefit.

And many times when it is done from what Yamini is saying, purely from an academic point of view, that goal is not 

Manisha: achieved. Um, Yamini compared the work of, uh, policy wonks as journalists. So it's true that while their work is supposed to be critical of You know, government intervention, government [00:37:00] schemes, policy.

It's not necessarily antagonistic in the way that sometimes journalism can be where journalists almost at least the ones who do journalism sometimes pride themselves with besting the government or putting the government in their place. There's this tussle between, you know, journalists and governments.

I think one of the most rewarding aspects of being a policy person is to be able to work with the government to at least see your work then translate into ground changes. And this is a big question that we need to think of. Considering the current government and how, you know, appreciative it is of criticism and how swift the appreciation is, in many cases, how do you begin to work in such an environment as a policy worker when the very act of criticism is labelled as anti national?

Or not even criticism, audit. Or audit. So 

Abhinandan: how do you, how do you fix it? That's what I call a criticism, an audit which will throw up results. Which will ultimately help you do better. It's like saying my CA, when he 

Manisha: orders my car, Abe ture ye! Exactly. So how do you even begin suggesting interventions when you can't even acknowledge that there's an issue?

[00:38:00] That 

Yamini: comparison I was making was on the core principle of truth telling. Yeah, for sure. 

Manisha: But I think, yeah, I mean, even for young professionals who want to, you know, become policy, uh, you know, wonks, this is a question 

Yamini: to think of. Lots to talk about on that after we 

Abhinandan: finish. Sure, So now let's just come to the entire chunavi mahal garam hai for our south listeners and viewers.

That means the electoral scene is heating up. Yes, 

Manisha: with Ambur Talaiwa in Chennai. 

Abhinandan: So, uh, using 

Manisha: the one 

Abhinandan: word I learned from Jayshree. Quickly start. Okay, so let's start with Jayshree and then I'd like to come to Rashid because Rashid I 

Yamini: was like what language is Manisha talking? Ambur Talaiwa, you only told 

Abhinandan: me.

She's just killing our Tamil. You're eluded. Throw her off a cliff or something. How dare she? So good. But so Oh, we have another tamilian here indeed too good today. We've outnumbered these Now these go back [00:39:00] go to hell So now, now you align with the, of course, wherever I see the numbers, I'll just. Cause the joke is that I'm half Punjabi, 

Yamini: half Tamil.

So, so, so we switch around. 

Abhinandan: So we, depending on my hall, you know, we are just, so we are like right now, like if. If my ethnicity was my politics, I'd be joining the BJP, right? But, but, uh, so let me start with you on the Congress front, Jayshree, and then, you know, Rashid can tell us, because you've written so much about the Congress.

My specific question, I won't come, so you can just take it straight from Jayshree, is that, is Congress inevitable? Like Thanos, I mean, whether it is strong or weak or not, is it inevitable? And are the Gandhis inevitable to that? Uh, Jayshree, first you tell me what's happening. What do you mean inevitable?

Like just elaborate more. It cannot not be there. It's been there too long. It's just, it's, it's, it has to stay. Irrespective 

Manisha: of the electoral outcome, it's going to be the principal [00:40:00] opposition 

Abhinandan: party. going to be a. 

Yamini: You're saying, is there 

Jayashree: like an India after Congress? Once it goes. No, I mean, Not for this election, not for the next election, not for me, the next few ones, but as to how the Congress might evolve is something that I always wonder about.

I mean, for me, I'm very much entrenched in the idea of, you know, if not Modi, then who for me, it's anyone. But also I think the Congress has got that very unenviable position, right? I mean, it has made terrible mistakes over the decades. And let us say that flat out that Rahul Gandhi is also now the face of it tells us a lot, but I think now it's in the worst position it's ever been because it is sort of faced by this Very demagogic sort of polity, you know.

The National Party of Governance now is a demagogue which focuses on ideas like hatred and so on. So at the time it's very difficult, right now I feel like it's very difficult to counter that with ideas of, you know, good sense and policy and logic. I don't know if there are examples in history of, you know, sort of powerful demagogues being unseated by the force of persuasive and sensible rational politics.[00:41:00] 

So the Congress is trying to do that but also it can't. So this is why it also sort of resorts to what we would say What we would describe as soft Hindutva lines because how else do you tackle it? So I think also, but in a country that's so fundamentally poor and so full of people who struggle, eventually something's got to give, you know, this venom that we see now that we will see in the next couple of decades, something will crack.

But as what role the Congress will play, I think currently we're forced to sort of acknowledge that it will play a role because we literally cannot name one. all encompassing party of the stature that it has right now. But if your question is rephrased to, do I want the Congress to 

Yamini: be inevitable? But 

Jayashree: yeah, I think it's time.

But as to what would take place, I don't know. But then that I think hinges entirely on the idea of like, oh, but if we believe in this union of India, then we must believe in The idea of the Congress. 

Abhinandan: So, Rashid, you've written this book, 24 RBA Road, which is a short history of the people behind the fall and rise of the Congress available in payback, uh, and pay paperback, uh, for only rupees.[00:42:00] 

Uh, 2 67 Kindle edition, hard cover 1002. See, I'm selling your book for Rashid three 8,000 piece paperback. You can click on the link in the show notes and order it. Uh, so you clearly have to have done a lot of research to write a book like this. What, what is your take as someone who studied the congress?

I 

Rasheed: think, uh, uh, Congress of today, uh, is not, uh, viewed, uh, in a dispassionate sense. There are people who feel, uh, very strongly for it, and there are equal, if not more people, a number of people who feel that the Congress must die. The Congress time, time is up, and it's very old actually. The cops is very, uh, if you consider Congress as a sort of dead body.

It's very alive and kicking. It got, uh, you know, almost 20 percent votes in 2014, as well as in 2019. The entire purpose of Rahul Gandhi's Bharat Chodho Yatra phase 1, phase 2, was to increase the vote share of Congress party from 18, 19, 20 percent to 24, [00:43:00] 25%. Just 5 percent increase in a vote share in 2024 would change a lot of political equations in the country.

It is not happening. I mean, I, I'm saying that because, uh, the political climate is slightly different, but I'm saying that was the objective, uh, increase somehow of vote share of Congress party. The vote percentage between Congress and BJP is not, uh, Very huge. If you look at, uh, you know, 2014, uh, numbers, the Congress got 10 crore votes.

We've got 17 crore votes in 2019. The Congress got, uh, 14, 15, 000 crore and BGP was around, uh, 20 to 23 crores. So this is a kind of, or not, it is the kind of political system we have. And that's where I think Tamil Nadu comes in. It's very important this time around, uh, 39 plus 140 Lok Sabha seats, uh, DMK are in alliance.

If there is a, you know, poor showing and if BGP gets 10 or 15, uh, you know, looks of our seats, then we are talking about 350 plus seats for, uh, for the NDA BGP, but [00:44:00] zero, then of course things change. So I think Congress position in 137 seats that come from, uh, Southern part of India. many parts of East India and other parts is very important.

So, you know, it's very simple. I mean, then just to sum up, if the Congress can get a hundred Lok Sabha seats, there is no way that Mr. Modi or BGP will get, uh, you know, a clear majority because the regional parties are sitting on, let's say 150 seats or so. So I'm going to say 150 plus 50 become 250. So it becomes, it makes things very done.

There are, of course, political parties like Biasar Congress and Biju Jantardal and AIDMK and all who are not part of any alliance. So 20, 30, 40 seats go to them also. So therefore, I'm saying it is this 24 election is not over. It depends how, you know, what kind of mandate come from Bihar. again, if it is just India gets all kind of seats or 36 38, then 2020, Maharashtra, general state, Karnataka, uh, where BGP got, uh, 24, 25 seats [00:45:00] last time around, then the Congress has split it into, you know, half in the sense that 14, 15 seats going to Congress.

All of these things are in the realm of possibility. So I think the Congress will live to fight another day. 

Abhinandan: I see. And, and, and you think it's important it does? Or do you think it's better for politics in general? And you need not have a view on it. I mean, uh, that it, it, it, it dies and someone else replaces it because it seems it can't do without the Gandhi's.

Someone else, 

Rasheed: are you saying someone else is the political party that could not hand handle, uh, you know, one scam that is, you know, getting liquidized? Are we talking about that political party? Which one? It came 

Abhinandan: up with a lot of problems. Oh, 

Rasheed: okay. So look at that, look at the kind of, they are so bad. It's the only 

Abhinandan: thing that can replace it on a pan India.

There's, there's nothing else that can. 

Rasheed: Every political party has a very progressive kind of agenda. It was not, uh, you know, Uh, sort of, you know, divided on the cost lines or this, uh, you know, Hindu, Muslim, uh, votes, uh, et cetera. [00:46:00] I think it had, it has a lot of potential. I won't say it had, but the way, you know, the courts and the legal web is tightening, there is a very serious attempt to actually liquidize that political party.

What they're going to do in time to come, uh, that they may name, uh, I'm on the party as a sort of, uh,

And, and finish it off. It will, of course it will come in another form, but this is what I'm saying. So I think the role of Congress is very important. A lot has been said, written about Gandhi's. I think there are two things I really quickly, I want to say that is one is of course, Gandhi's have, you know, illusion of grandeur and that is where they think it is their duty to hold on and be on the sort of, you know, leaders, but they are not, they're not, they're not power builders.

They're trustees of power. And that is their problem. Because if they had done that. Things would've been slightly better. Uh, and second problem is very fundamental question. Uh, that is whether the Congress is failing, Gandhi or Gandhis are failing the Congress. Congress is not used to Gandhi [00:47:00] family's failure.

Right? Uh, was there till the last day when he was Prime Minister in Gandhi died as Prime Minister Raji Gandhi was come back, Sonia Gandhi, back to back victory 2004 and 19. It is only Rahul Gandhi, who's, who's seen as, uh. uh, as a failure. If there's 2024 if the Congress fails to get even 100 votes of us, he will be, you know, we would end up as, as failure.

But what is the rest of the Congress party doing? All the heavy lifting, and I'm saying on the basis of some, uh, analysis and data, that all the heavy lifting in election, uh, campaign, uh, is done by, you know, three Gandhi's. You know the demand for, uh, there is a congress control room. Very quickly, I'll tell you, uh, there is a congress control room so that if there are congresses fighting three 50 seats, so all three 50 candidates, uh, ask for leaders, uh, you know, I mean, you'd be surprised, you know, what is the demand for this after the after Gandhi people want, should do to come in.

Know, just do people want, uh, I mean go has shifted loyalty now. But [00:48:00] people like people like people like, uh, you know, uh, to come in and campaign for them. There is more demand for, uh, you know, all those big wigs of the Congress working committee or so in, in a sense, very, very, very localized kind of demand 

Abhinandan: is there.

You know, I, I have said this in a half time in the past. I don't think it's a. happy situation, right? I think Gandhi's is the glue that keeps the Congress together. So I really think there's an inevitability to the Gandhi's as long as the Congress is there, because I don't believe anybody else can take over and keep the Congress together.

It will not happen. It'll splinter off. So whether you like them or not, I think from the point of view of just keeping the Congress together, it has to be the Gandhi's are the group. But I think the biggest failure, and maybe that's of politics in general, and that is the contradiction in leadership is that The Congress and I think that's true for most political parties in the BJP.

I mean, BJP now under Modi, he's cut down leaders to size, although they are leaders. The Congress has never [00:49:00] had any leaders other than the Gandhis. For example, you know, whether it is Sindhia, whether it is R. P. N. Singh, whether it is all these other guys who flipped. They were never leaders. What I'm saying is, they spent.

20 years, you know, buying themselves to the Gandhis. Now they're spending the next 10 years buying themselves to Modi. They are basically, they will they, they will you snap and they will jump into his ZA. And these guys are touted as quote unquote leaders. And the problem is the biggest political parties are full of such quote unquote leaders.

There is no leadership in any of these people. They are just there. And that is, I think, the failure of the Congress especially, and possibly that's. That's what politics has become, because it is the, the superstar will get to the votes, EV everyone else is irrelevant. Yeah. I think you wanna say something, Rashid, 

Rasheed: she's that white collar that has failed Congress and Gandhi, you see in, in GHI was very clear.

She did not allow a, a large, very large, you know, set of, uh, social acquaintances and French and all. She did not bring them to, [00:50:00] uh, politics. It was Rajib Bali, who did it. And those, you know, the two and several others, and Chen, they all kind of, you know, led to Rajib Tis. downfall. I think Mr. Manishankar Iyer has written a lot about all these things.

And then, you know, same mistake, uh, Rahul Gandhi made a lot of these, you know, the 

Abhinandan: problem. They're not his friends. I mean, let's be clear. None of them has friends. 

Rasheed: No, no, no. They were not friends. They were all his contemporaries and, you know, people who are sort of, you know, achievers in that respect. You must know what I mean.

white collar have a problem. You see, I would be first, I will protect my honor, my dignity, my, you know, sense of ego. Then I will look after, you know, my leader and my organization. This is exactly what has happened in Congress. See the separatists that we were talking about, they stayed on and they were very, very, very loyal to, uh, you know, to the Congress.

It is only people who are, you know, best and brightest who are Rahul Gandhi's contemporaries, earlier time Rajiv Gandhi's contemporaries, they have left because the moment they realized their position, their image. They are sort of, [00:51:00] uh, you know, was hurting the left and the other side was there to 

Abhinandan: welcome them.

Yamini, but you hadn't provoked me earlier, but if you're referring to Cindy as a best and brightest, I will come to that. I mean, I would not keep that guy news laundry. To, uh, you know, even make sure that the inventory of the studio is okay. I mean, let's, let's be clear. What are the level of these guys?

They happen to be born into privilege. They happen to be born into privilege. If he was not a royal, he would be struggling to get the job of a receptionist. I will guarantee that to you. And I'd say that as someone who has also known him, let's be clear. The caliber of 

Rasheed: these people. I'm saying this is my book, a house of Siddhi as I have mentioned, it is not Gandhi's, it is Siddhi family, which has been, you know, in power.

From, uh, you know, 17th century till date, there is not a single day of independent India when a member of Sindia family was not a member of Lok Sabha, [00:52:00] Rajya Sabha or State Assembly. This is a unique distinction that even Gandhi's and Nehru's do not have. 

Yamini: A couple of things. I think it's worth recognizing that across all political parties.

It's not just Congress, BJP. Look at every single regional political party today. Uh, the. tendency of, uh, inner party structures to have become completely centralized into the cult of personality of one and at most two, and usually the second is a, is a family member, uh, is now, uh, it's, it's part and parcel of the, of the political culture of India.

I mean, it's across all political parties. And to me, the question that we need to ask is, why is that so? Particularly with a large number, so let's look at our North Indian regional parties from BSP to SP to JDU. emerged out of deep social movements of their political movements of their own kind, the caste movements, there was a particular kind of grassroots mobilization that [00:53:00] then built up the edifice of these as political parties.

Once they came into positions of power, they kind of drew on state power into themselves. And their whole modus operandi became about the ability to dispense state power into to the constituencies that they were appealing to voting for. And I wonder whether that kind of very particularistic politics that emerged out of it has also fed into the need to then keep the whole structure of the party deeply centralized.

I think that we need a lot more thinking amongst folks like us who observe, who participate, but you know, who aren't part of the profession of politics to really try and understand why this tendency of centralization has become so key. And the emergence of money as such a. Key issue. I mean, right now you all have done this yeoman's work on electoral bonds that are giving us at least some understanding of how the relationships work.

But money and muscle has been a crucial part of this whole story of India's politics. As we, as the Congress started atrophying [00:54:00] and regional parties came up and, uh, perhaps because money became so important, the need to centralize because lots of bags of money are coming in. Whoever controls the Yeah.

And who is coming in? Look at the entry barriers into politics. So you can only enter politics if you have, if you're Pappu Yadav and you have the muscle power to be able to contest 

Abhinandan: election. The finance minister of the country says, I don't have the finances to contest an election. I mean, I know for a fact, you know, all parties, one big determinant of who they give a ticket to is, will the party have to fund the election?

Can you fund it yourself? Which kind of inevitably 

Yamini: creates the conditions for the election. for the, uh, bachchas and the nephews and the nieces and everybody to show up because it, uh, it gives you, gives you that entry point. So it's, I, I, you know, there is a, there's another, so this kind of very strange centralization breakdown of inner party democracy across all political parties.

I think the BJP is very interested in that. Thing for that reason, because it does have the base of the RSS mm-Hmm. I mean, it does in, its in its own way. It emerges out of a particular type of social movement. And the base of the, [00:55:00] the RSS card are still, are, are robust, they're strong, they're everywhere. Um, how are the two now intersecting with each other?

Uh, it's, it's too early for anybody to. But I think that these are the things to look out for in terms of where we go from here. And to answer that big question is, is Congress inevitable or if Congress is not inevitable after Congress, what I, a lot has to do with the breakdown of CARDUS of, of party CARDUS structures and the breakdown of the relationship between grassroots mobilization and electoral politics.

Manisha: Manisha. Is Congress inevitable or not? I really don't know. I don't think I'm equipped to answer that, but I just want to shift the conversation You know, look at it from a slightly different frame of what the Congress has been able to do in the current electoral battle. It's a very good front page piece in the Hindu Today by CSDS, which basically says that there are three things that define an electoral battle.

One is agenda setting, which the media does, opinion makers, Chatterjee. The second is what a political party does in the sense. [00:56:00] issues that a political party believes that matter and they'll galvanize people on that. So BJP will make Pakistan an issue even though it's not an issue. And the third will be the voters reality.

It's important to remember that voters are not bots who just press Lotus because Arnab told them or they press on, you know, the hand because Rahul told them. So they are assessing their own reality and they've done a survey where it says that on the third aspect, the key issues for voters today is not Ram Mandir, not Vishwa Mandir, not Vishwa Guru.

Uh, not even corruption. It is unemployment and price rise. And we've known this that over the past two, three years, these are key issues that everyone's talking about everyone who's been to the ground, even for state elections. In such a scenario, you have to ask questions of the principal opposition party on why they haven't been able to galvanize the sentiment into tangible anger against a tenure incumbent now?

That is a very serious question that Congress has to answer irrespective of the results. And to my mind, you've had confusing, I think, you know, [00:57:00] agendas. So you have the Pyaar Ki Dukaan, which is again, doesn't really talk about unemployment price rates. You have, then you have an alliance. If you just look at the last one year, you have an alliance.

I think by July, India was in place. August, the whole rank and file of, you know, Congress is committed to Rahul Gandhi's image on his Nyaya Yatra, uh, you know, as this Jan Nayak who's going to take on Modi. There's a Nyaya Yatra, but again, it's not really clear what Nyaya is. The signaling is not very clear.

So I think for sure, I don't know if it's Gandhi or not, but for sure Rahul as, as The most important Congress agenda to the point that there were problems between TMC and Congress. And we don't have an alliance in West Bengal now. Apparently, Congress complained that, you know, TMC is not giving us permissions.

It was causing rift between the alliance partners where they said, look, you have gone on a yatra and we want to do seat sharing. So I think there is a huge issue in terms of galvanizing the voter, galvanizing some sort of sentiment. And it all boils down to just the intense focus on Rahul [00:58:00] as the prime minister.

prime ministerial 

Abhinandan: candidate. I think, uh, you want 

Yamini: to say something. So I think there's a few things. Um, there's no question that unemployment, uh, is a very serious issue. Uh, but I have a one and I, but I, and I do think that for all its flaws and I'm not taking away from anything that you said, I agree entirely.

Uh, it's not like the Congress hasn't repeatedly or for that matter, the India Alliance hasn't repeatedly tried to push the unemployment question. The Behrouz Ghadi question comes up repeatedly and it's very much even front and center in the manifesto. that they have produced as well. Why is it not catching?

I think we need to go a little bit beyond party strategy to answer that question. And I think that there are two issues here. Number one is that we've always had jobless growth. It has been a consistent Achilles heel of the nature of Indian economy after 1991. Remember NREGA came, that whole inclusive growth story of the UPA in 2004, NREGA comes on the on that.

It has gotten sharper, bigger. It's not ending. [00:59:00] So the, and the demographic structure is now getting it to that boiling point of becoming a ticking time bomb. It's a problem that we have to solve, but has anybody got an answer that that's, it's, it's an old problem. It's not something that is only Modi's creation.

He's not solved it. The second thing is that there also is for all the Adani story that Rahul Gandhi will produce regularly, there is a broad based consensus across the country and the with voters too on the trajectory of our growth. It's not like we are particularly enamored by the left. So it's not that there's an alternative broad economic imagination that any political party can present.

So what are they doing? They are saying,

Everybody's only answer. This problem is the same. 

Abhinandan: I wanna come back. I just wanna, Rashi has to go. We'll come back to this. Rashi has to go, come to you. Manisha. So, Rashi, before you go, just like I promised in the beginning of the show that we'll take on this issue of you can't use religion to ask for [01:00:00] votes.

Ah, uh, the election commission A, I'm not, I wasn't aware that there is. Because I attended a debate at the National Law School Bangalore, uh, where, uh, me, I think I, me and Asaduddin were on the same side. On the other side was Sandeep Dixit and I forget who else. Where the debate was that should religion be allowed to exist?

Should you be allowed to seek votes on the basis of religion? And I was like, of course you should, for any identity. So A, this Arun Govil going, the ECI has issued a notice, or someone's complained. There's just a complaint, no notice. There's a complaint, so I don't think there is a rule that you can't seek votes on the basis of religion.

I mean, if there is, I'm not aware of it. And I just, before you go, I want your view on it, because I want the panel's view. Do you think, I mean, whether it is being done tastefully or not is a separate point, but should there be any rule of not using religion to ask for votes? Rashid, what's your view? And then we'll go around the panel.

I think, 

Rasheed: uh, we must understand that, uh, Indian democracy, uh, with best principle model of parliamentary democracy, [01:01:00] there is a lot of trust on, uh, propriety. Britain doesn't have a written constitution. Defections are very rare. In India, in Indian context, the issue of propriety was best described, to my mind, by Mr.

Lal Prasad Yadav. He said, I have seen, uh, hockey ground, football ground, polo ground, uh, what is this, the model ground? And Mr. Lal Prasad Yadav, he said, I have seen, uh, You know, he got away with it and a lot of people feel this way. So therefore, whatever at this point of time, when you say about your question is very valid and serious.

But I am saying there are no takers because the MCC election commission political class itself, you know, they are absolutely clueless and people are not the stakeholder. Ultimately, the voters, I, uh, you know, they don't object about 

Abhinandan: it at all. But do you think there should be a law against it? Do you think that you should not be allowed?

There is no point. It's 

Rasheed: like the hedge law. You see, you cannot, you can have law, but if there is no social acceptability or aversion towards it, that is not going to be applicable. So therefore, politicians, [01:02:00] political parties, uh, candidates, they get away. And you look at how many times election commission.

I'm not talking about election commission of today, but of past all 30, 40, 50 years, how many times, you know, people, I, one instance, I don't work is off, uh, uh, Balasaheb Thackeray, who was, uh, uh, dispensaries for, uh, for six years for making use of, you know, religion in politics, but, uh, did it undermine, uh, you know, Tucker's position?

Actually became far more stronger than his political legacies there. Congress and all their, yo were opposing, uh, you kn They are now, uh, you kno So I find I'm saying it, this is an academic cause question. But you know, i in voters mind, this is n political parties and ind With that, you know, temple visit or religious place and they go there and campaign.

There is nobody, there's nobody who can object and walk. If EC goes on to disqualify people, you know, the entire election. We'll have to [01:03:00] disqualify everyone. So I'm saying unless we have an avenue, we have imported a political system that puts a lot of trust on propriety. But if there is no idea of propriety.

If the idea is just to, you know, uh, win and win at any cost by all political parties, then what is the, what is the 

Abhinandan: kind of thing that we are talking about? Okay. Before I come to Jayshree, there is a rule in the model code of conduct, which says there shall be no appeal to caste or communal feelings for securing votes.

Mosques, churches, temples, or other places of worship shall not be used as forum for election propaganda. I don't know what world the election commission is living in, but anyway. And 

Rasheed: it, it is not. It is not, uh, 

Abhinandan: you know, it doesn't have any statutory status. Yeah, it's advisory. Correct. It's so what do you think?

Yeah. 

Jayashree: No, I mean, I completely agree with you. I don't see the point of it. So already the BGP is. We're getting wildly popular because it is bringing to life that decades long promise that people have wanted it, which is the idea of India as the sort of Hindu Rashtra. And now they're [01:04:00] finally seeing it come to fruition.

So in that is the basis of politics. And when it's so closely intertwined anyway with religion, how does it matter if the election commission is saying, You can't, it says you can't use churches, Gurudwaras, It also says that you must not, um, 

Abhinandan: On caste or communal lines, you should not ask for votes. Ah, you shouldn't cause 

Jayashree: tension or something on the basis of religious groups.

And then if this man who once starred in the Ramayana is waving around a photograph of the, of Lord Ram and all, I don't see, I mean, it's just to be expected. So maybe they're trying to make an example of him by cracking down, but they're 

Abhinandan: not, there's just a complaint. Nothing has happened. There's just a complaint.

So then what is the point? 

Rasheed: Can I, on this Ram issue, can I come in? You see, you remember in 1988, there was a by election in which, uh, you know, when Amitabh Bachchan resigned in Allahabad, there was a by election and Vishwanath Pratap Singh was contesting against Sunil Shastri. And the Congress, uh, you know, uh, took Mr.

uh, Arun Govind in full that kind of, you know, television gear of, of drama to campaign. That is what I'm saying. So now that political party or [01:05:00] people who are sympathetic to that party are criticizing and opposing, uh, Uh, I don't know. We'll again in Beirut and, you know, bringing, uh, kind of, uh, photograph of and, uh, you know, showcasing it point.

I'm saying this is, this is a case of double standard. I will, I would say that what Congress was doing in 1988, 87 was wrong. And what BGP is doing in 2024 is wrong. But the fact of the matter is people are 

Abhinandan: very cool about it. Yeah, 

Manisha: the up song in Bjp from the JP that Anthem was,

it's just baked into the whole thing. I don't think Thei can do anything 

Abhinandan: about it. I'll just come to, uh, um, yai. But before that, uh, thanks you so much for joining us. Uh, Mr. , uh, pleasure talking to you. We should have a longer discussion on the inevitability. Of Congress and many other things. But right now you have to go have a fantastic Eid next time.

Please come to our office with, which is, which we, I mean, that's the standard thing you tell all your [01:06:00] Muslim friends. Yaar biryani nahi khilai, because that's just the standard on Eid. But before you go, can you recommend something other than your books, the links to which will be found in the show notes, uh, any reading, writing, watching that enrich the lives of our listeners?

Rasheed: Yeah, I think you referred to in the beginning of the program, The Contenders, I think it's a very, uh, good book to read, uh, 

Abhinandan: by Priya Sehgal. Right. Okay. So you've recommended The Contenders. Thank you. I, I must say before you go on that discussion, you know what really worried me about Mr. Ram Madhav and it worries me about each time he speaks, he's considered one of the intellectual artists, unless I'm wrong.

And you know, when this whole contenders thing happened, he said, predictably, you know, what's the point of this book and all these, I mean, I'm paraphrasing and all these lists of people. You See, it is not vacant till 2047. I don't know what calculation he has that till what age Mr. Modi will continue to reign supreme, etc, etc.

But he's saying it doesn't matter what we say, that's not democratic. What vote is democratic? And I've heard him say this several times, but I find it deeply worrying if that's what he [01:07:00] believes. Because I think that is what the RSS believes, that the only democratic process is whoever's voted and everyone has to listen to him.

Like A conversation like this, it's not like what we are saying here is going to change policy, but this is a part of democratic process. Conversation on who should replace Mr. Modi or who is a contender. His understanding is that, how is this democratic? Who are we to say who? I held my head and I was like, will no one correct this guy?

And this is his understanding of democracy. Then we are fucked. You know, we are in deep shit because vote, whoever gets election now for five years. For five years, just salute and say, yes, sir. Yes, sir. So I'm really worried about what democracy means to, uh, and I'm guessing that if he's the thinker. BGP in a very 

Rasheed: smart way has blurred the kind of fine distinction between the Indian state and Indian government.

And this is what the masses are. So if you criticize Mr. Modi, you criticizing You know, this, uh, Union of India or State of India. 

Abhinandan: And that is the only something. Yes, on that [01:08:00] question on religion, do you think there should be a rule against, or any community identity, I think. 

Yamini: I mean, I, I think seeking, uh, votes to represent, uh, the anxieties, the needs, the priorities of communities is.

Power for the cause, uh, that is what democracy is about. We've had a very live debate over the last five years about Muslim representation in parliament, for instance, in the context of BJP. And um, often the argument that is presented is, well, uh, you know, why do you assume that only a Muslim can represent Muslim issues?

To which my response is very simple, in which case, why do we need women's reservation? Ultimately, uh, there is 

Abhinandan: a concept of democracy itself, you 

Yamini: know, now don't go that far. That's too hard to grasp, but at least let's see if you're willing to do women's reservation because you believe that you need more women voices in parliament to represent women's issues.

Presumably you need to apply the same principle to the Muslim question on representation as well. [01:09:00] Anyway. Uh, but so, so I don't have an issue with that. What I do think is, uh, where we need to draw the line is when questions of representation get, get blurred with what. What very quickly becomes the equivalent of hate speech, the equivalent of demonizing particular communities, the equivalent or the equivalent of spreading violent messages.

And that is happening consistently in our elections. That's where the election commission should be more. I think, you know, in 2019, referring to certain communities as termites, referring to majority minority, you know, these kinds of statements are equivalent in my book to the equivalent of hate speech.

speech and must absolutely be disallowed because ultimately we adopted a constitution that was baked, that baked within it the core secular principle. The core secular principle in India was about principle distance of state from all religions. If we're staying with specifically with a religious argument, that is the role of what a politician is supposed to do when they are seeking [01:10:00] votes because they represent what they will do when they come into parliament.

Abhinandan: So, Manisha, you were making a segwayed into, uh, Rashid, before 

Manisha: you went away. On this, I completely agree with Yamini that, uh, hate speech is what we should look at. I don't think we can stop, even on the basis of caste, and it can be counterproductive for parties, social justice parties, like a BSP. You know, whatever they, however they communicate to their voters and why it's important for Dalits to support Mayawati.

So the same thing can be flipped and used against them. So I think hate speech is what you should focus on. We were talking about unemployment, why that's not an issue or why an opposition party has not been able to galvanize the anger on unemployment. I completely agree that it's true that when you talk to, to a lot of people who say unemployment is an issue, they don't have an immediate answer to who can solve it.

A lot of them will say Modi in his third term should focus on unemployment. Uh, but I think that's where politics has to get creative. A lot of politics is about creating bubbles, creating myths, selling sentiments that may not be, you know, right. Real, you know, Modi does that, every party does it, [01:11:00] TMC does it, AAP does it, but it's opposition's role also to bust those bubbles, bust those with repeated communication of look at the lines outside, you know, exams, state exams, look at Agni Veer, what they're doing.

So I do think I'd still say that it can be done by an effective opposition galvanizing that. concern or anger about unemployment and inflation. Congress did it very effectively in Karnataka with price rise, where they very effectively targeted the BJP on cylinder price. That was a key feature of their campaign, just cylinder prices.

But it was repeated consistent communication with the voters that this is what you need to vote on. This is where they failed you. This is what we'll do right. 

Abhinandan: I think it's a question of resource eloquence we've discussed before. I mean, I completely agree with you, but I think it's easier to do in a restricted geography, just like ARP could become a thing only in Delhi.

ARP cannot become a thing in UP or Karnataka. 

Jayashree: Yeah, because you're asking one party to tailor make this message. 

Abhinandan: So, but when you're doing pan India, that's the media's job. But in that, the media has failed desperately. [01:12:00] Because you know, I was seeing India today doing this Kathni Aur Karni Mein Farkh of, of Arvind Kejriwal.

And they've got videos of him from 2011 and all. But if you do the Kathni of PM Modi, you don't have to get videos from 2011. You can make an half an hour show with just videos of last five years. But that Aaj Saak will not do. So I think that is actually, because the larger the geography, the less you can depend on your carder doing it.

Like, I mean, I think it, and this I can say for a fact, because I was involved in the first election of the AAP. I don't think there has ever been an election in India where a party has won majority in a state with no use of Aaj Saak. any money that was outside the purview of election commission, like 20 lakh is a per.

I know for a fact, many assembly seats of less one in spending less than that. Since then, not a single election across any party has been restricted to that. But do you think they could have done that in Tamil Nadu or UP or no chance? It could only be done in Delhi, [01:13:00] which is 

Manisha: a pan India. It can galvanize people, but 

Yamini: that's the problem.

I think there are a few things. Don't forget the, uh, the, the, uh, carders of the BJP are just there because of the RSS. It's just, it's wide, it's widespread. Now they have a complete Kabza over the money that plays a very important role when your opponent is using big capital in a particular way. Then, you know, you really don't need the money to be able to counter it at a point.

Right now, Congress only has actually Karnataka as a big money giver and Telangana now, uh, to contribute to it. And that will be the death of it because it will end up taking so much, eking so much money out of capital in both these states that, you know, it will totally atrophy very quickly. But any, that, that, so I, I think the money Kabza matters in this.

And the fact that for, for perhaps, because Congress was always this umbrella party and post freedom movement, it ki the, the inability to mobilize Ka around, 

Jayashree: uh, [01:14:00] issues has always has 

Yamini: been for a long time the accolades healed. That is how the Indi and you know, in the Gandhi sort of master the art of this.

So while every village you go to in India. Even in U. P. now, you'll still find one like, you know, old man who'll be willing to be who's a Congress old guy. Somehow the party is not able to that Carter mobilization. It's occasionally it's tried. Remember 2004, they were going to do some elections for youth Congress to There is something very deep in the, in the rot that has said that has made it hard.

Maybe it has to start afresh, but this business and now it's coming back. got complicated because there's too much big money. So how do you manage these two things to tell the story? I 

Abhinandan: don't know. I mean, I do think it has something to do with the personal charisma. And 

Manisha: I think leadership, I think a lot of organizations across our kind of take a cue from 

Abhinandan: it.

And I'm actually defining leadership in an even narrower sense. You know, leadership, I would assume, is. He's picking a good second level, second tier. I'm talking about leadership, [01:15:00] pure charisma. I'm talking Salman Khan leadership. Entry batao? That is something that Congress doesn't have. They need a Salman Khan like, Sher aaya, chhe Sher aaya, chhapan inki chhati leke aaya.

Or, you know, that is something, I think,

Yamini: ideology that's at the heart of that. That's something that we shouldn't forget. 

Abhinandan: Your, your diagnosis, Dr. Jeri. 

Jayashree: No, I mean, I think we already discussed that now politics in India is devolved to this entire cult of personality, right? So as much as I still think that it's very important to have grassroot leaders talk about issues, etc, but you do need a face.

And in the lack of the face, the Congress will go nowhere. So and it is very unwieldy. And we saw this also in that very unwieldy stitching together of alliances, like everyone thought, Oh, wow, India Alliance has announced this is it. This is some turning point in the entire campaign. It was not everything sort of fell apart.[01:16:00] 

They were struggling to share seats. The career was like the party workers was fighting with each other on the ground. Now they're pitting. Politicians against the ally is fighting against the ally in key seats like in Wyanad and all that we're seeing. So it's just, I feel there were so many lost chances.

I don't know if whether if they had won it or planned it better, would it have made that much of a difference? But I think it could have got like, I mean, I'm already writing the Congress off this election, but I do think that. The BJP at least is that example, right? Two years ago, they identified seats in which they were failing.

They sort of mobilized forces. They allocated people towards it. They sort of built it towards it. Like in Tamil Nadu, we're seeing an all out sort of onslaught of the BJP, which I still think will go nowhere. But I think the Congress could have learned From 

Manisha: 3%, they can get 6 percent at least. Oh, please. I mean, yeah, 6 maybe is the threshold.

And then you have prominently BJP doubles its vote share in Tamil Nadu. Yeah. 

Jayashree: But I have my own rant on Tamil Nadu. Which we'll get to. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. But I mean, before we say bye to Yamini, just since you didn't take the last [01:17:00] word, I'll just say that. I mean, the one thing that is clear of the quality of leadership and that is why your own brand has to be so big is that the chief minister Khattar needs to stand on stage with Elvish Yadav to get, you know, eyeballs of, I mean, it tells you all there is to be told about.

But I mean, you, your hessiyat should be so big that you don't need to be the CM of India. Haryana, he's bloody Elvish Yadav, like some, you know, Chavani from hell, but that 

Yamini: in all of this, that is why all the, you know, you'd refer to that piece I did in this whole DBT stuff. The direct benefit transfers welfare system has been the perfect place.

Present to all our politicians, uh, because it allows you to create that emotive connect between the party leader and the beneficiary. It doesn't need the chief minister. It doesn't need the local MLA. Does all the anger gets transferred onto the local MP, the local MLA, but the leadership and you, and all political parties are playing this game.

It's [01:18:00] like, you know, CM and, uh, that's that. And DBT allows you to do this. better than anything else because otherwise you needed the panchayat, now 

Abhinandan: you don't. Before we let Yamini go, uh, can you recommend something that will enrich the lives of our listeners? 

Yamini: How about Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt?

I think everyone should read this. Okay, that's, 

Abhinandan: that's what is your prescribed reading. Cheerful, 

Manisha: we can read. 

Yamini: Sorry, not so cheerful, but I do think that they are very big and deep. Questions to ask about Indian democracy and all thinking Indians should look to history and also know what intellectuals across the world were doing in times, uh, and, and how they were thinking and the challenges that they confronted, especially at a time when intellectual freedom in India is, um, uh, is is not just in a decline.

It's, it's, it's 

Abhinandan: really shrunk. Right. So, Yi had to leave, but before we move on to the emails and feedback for the week, um, what is happening in the South Man? A lot of, lot of masala. A lot of masala. [01:19:00] Yeah. 

Jayashree: You sound like Rajdeep who's constantly eating fried fish on the streets of Chennai. And then saying, oh, is this the best fish?

Oh, this baby crab is so good. 

Manisha: I stand with Rajdeep. I really like his election coverage. Rajdeep 

Jayashree: is charming. I will admit that. As annoying as he 

Abhinandan: is. I cringe. I cringe when he's like, And someone's playing the, he's like, he's really, he's, he's become like her. He really comfortable. He's become like her. It's like unhinged uncle man.

I'm like, 

Manisha: hashtag 

Jayashree: I stand. It's like one of those charming uncles that you don't mind running into at party. I don't mind hanging out with him tonight. It's fine. So my entire thing though is that. Okay, everyone is asking me about the Nadu, what is happening and all, so I think it is so much hype, I'd be sticking my neck out a bit, but I feel like Delhi media sees what is being projected, it may not have people on the ground in those constituencies having those conversations, so conclusions drawn are, to an extent, quite useless.

Yes, it is a three corner fight in that there is the [01:20:00] AIDMK, the DMK and there is a BJP alliance and there is no real other big third front at the point, but is that third corner strong and on the same footing as the other two alliances? No, I mean, they're not competing at the same level. So I think the only thing you can really take away is One, the sheer desperation, which is the fact that Modi has come back for a seventh time.

And also there's some amount of hubris, which is that, you know, we've already won over UP, Maharashtra, Rajasthan, Bihar, whatever, or they think that it's in the bag. So they will sort of train their guns on Tamil Nadu. And I've said it before, which is that without an alliance partner, they will struggle. I know Prashant Kishore has said that So they got three and a half percent in the 2019 election.

He says they'll get a double digit. It is difficult though. They are in alliance with the PMK, which will get them more votes, but the BJP on its own, I mean, despite very clever editing of Modi's roadshow, like the latest one that he had, he was on a single street. It's a stretch of one kilometer. It's about five minutes from my parents house.

So I know it intimate, like I know it well, you know, you expect to see those thronging crowds and there were crowds, but the crowds are mostly like, [01:21:00] because the prime minister has come to town. So it's the sort of people will come out and look at him, but. It isn't really the sort of mass support that we're sort of expected to believe.

And also the other lesson is that, yes, the BJP is relentless. But at the end of the day, who are their candidates? Like, so I think they have, of all the candidates that they are fielding the selection, I think it is, uh, Ponn Radhakrishnan and Kanyakumari is the strongest. Despite hype, I don't think Tamir Sai in Chennai South has a chance.

I don't think Annamalai has a chance. I don't think, uh, what's his name? Naina Nagendran who is Tiruvannamalai has a chance, or I don't fancy their chances. I just think that It has become a very talked up sort of idea that the BJP is really muscling to seize and I'm not really seeing it or hearing it from like people 

Manisha: otherwise.

And the local newspapers and channels would be a good assessment for you? Yeah, 

Jayashree: and the assessment of that is mostly that the ATMK and the DMK have more people on the ground. They have their local leaders. The BJP doesn't to that extent. Only Ponn [01:22:00] Radhakrishnan is a mass leader to an extent. So even Annamalai for all his sort of fire and brimstone, he doesn't really have.

Actual backers of his own, so, and even when Modi comes to town, he's just sort of was pushed to the side where like, you know, there'll be one spotlight Modi's in the center and he's in the corner and Annamalai himself has said very clearly he, he thinks the BJP will win in Tamil Nadu based on national issues.

But national issues do not hold currency like that in very disparate sort of states, right? They don't matter. So, I'm not sure what, I don't understand where that sort of aggressive confidence has come from, but I mean, it's interesting to watch, but I'm a little cautious. 

Abhinandan: So on that note, we will get to the feedback.

Uh, we only entertain the feedback of subscribers. So if you're paying to keep news free and supporting independent media, then do write to us at podcasts at newslondon. com. I repeat podcasts at newslondon. com better still click on the link in the show notes below and you [01:23:00] will get this pop up window and you can give your feedback there.

Please 200 words. There's several mails here that are way more than that. keeps us from including as many meals as we'd like. So let's first take last week's letters and finish those because there are eight left over from 

Manisha: there. So Shivam's written two letters, so we'll just quickly go through them. Um, says, Hi Abhinandan, I'm not a BGP supporter.

I believe in making informed decisions. Why do you not discuss the Hindu Muslim issue openly? Is it too insignificant to address? But I'm not sure which Hindu Muslim. People will accuse us of discussing Hindu Muslim too much. Yeah. I 

Jayashree: think he's, he's listing out questions that his father raised. His father said this, right?

Oh, 

Manisha: sorry. No, where is his father? 

Abhinandan: Yeah, right. And these questions raised by my father made me ponder. Basically, what he's saying is some left leaning journalists argue Hindu Muslim discourse is a distraction. Um, he's saying it may not be a distraction. And every region faces challenges like Europe grappled with black white issue, [01:24:00] etc, etc.

So we have our own challenges. Should we discuss it? 

Manisha: And the second letter he says on the debate in last podcast between Abhinandan and Manisha actually side with Manisha, which is that Congress doesn't provide any other face besides Rahul. Say what you will, but a party that made a post only because Rahul was too incapable of achieving any post by himself is sure to make him the PM.

Those posts were chairman of the Indian Youth Congress and vice president of Congress. The latter one was later removed. So, yeah, um, on the father's questions, I think we have more letters on in similar way in about. the Hindu fear. So maybe we can. Yeah, but 

Abhinandan: I do think there is some truth to that. I don't think we avoid it here.

I mean, I think we discuss as much as needs to be discussed. But generally, if you're talking about media, I do think that the religion, not just the Hindu Muslim thing, religion is not discussed, um, as matter of factly and as critically as it should. And [01:25:00] there is a lot of stepping on eggshells, uh, when it comes to issues.

But I think that's true for trans issues. I think that's true for many issues, but yeah, it's true. And I think that is leads to a lot of irritation of the right. Like I think even trans issues, they cannot be discussed, especially to talk about it to someone and you just get. Completely over the top responses.

I mean, there are certain things which, I mean, I think there is a lot to be critiqued on Islam, but it's, I don't think a bunch of Hindus sitting should be doing it and it doesn't come from anywhere else and there's no right time to do it. Like what's the right time? It's like guns in the US. No, don't do it immediately after a shooting because people are still grieving.

And after that, it's not an issue that you can discuss. So when do you discuss, when do you critique, you know, Islam or Hinduism or anything? Do you think there is a dearth of? 

Jayashree: I mean, I think this also feeds into what he said about how do we tackle these conspiracy theories? Cause a lot of them are conspiracy theories.

No, I mean, the idea that the Hindu is the victim, the idea that. [01:26:00] These hordes of Muslims are coming back to sort of attack us again. And I think it's, I mean, it's difficult to articulate also because you're talking to people who have sort of made themselves or cast themselves as victims in this entire larger story of it.

So I know you're supposed to be patient with them and, you know, try and like, I do it with my own family. You try and talk to your father and explain to him, but then after a point, I feel like they're only hearing what they want to hear. And. I don't think any amount of logic or rationality sometimes even works.

Manisha: I think the one thing also that you hear a lot among people is, there's one thing that people immediately tell you if you ask them why a Hindu Rashtra, they'll say that, well, the Muslims got two nations. They got their own Pakistan, they got their Bangladesh, why can't Hindus have? their own nation. And I think this is where we have failed post independence that, um, you know, post independence leaders really argued, debated, convinced Indians of why we needed to be secular, Gandhi, Nehru, Mollana, Azad, among others.

It wasn't just, you know, we are going to be secular. There was a lot of debate [01:27:00] and convincing. And I think somewhere down the line, public discourse, politics, we just, It's an ongoing process to keep telling people why we are the way we are. And so now we've come to a point where it's just a very common sentiment.

But, but why, why are we like this? Where Pakistan is Muslim, I mean, Muslims got Bangladesh and Pakistan. Why, why can't we have our own? So I think that's a failure of politics, I do feel. Public discourse, because we focus more on brotherhood, just superficial. I think, 

Abhinandan: I think it's a failure of, um, education and education.

The obvious question is okay. They got it. And then what? Like look at Pakistan, look at Bangladesh. They got it. Then what happened? Go to Nepal. It's actually a really dumb question that should be dealt with the kind of disdain it deserves. And that is, I think what. Politicians are too fearful of doing.[01:28:00] 

Because of media also because media also doesn't give it anyway. Yeah, but I don't 

Manisha: think I know. I also understand. I wanted to be tackled with more. No, but they did. They 

Jayashree: did debate the idea of secularism and sort of agree to it and all in the early sort of constituent assemblies. But also there was a lot of pushback on the idea of India being secular, right?

It was never 

Manisha: that. It was a cakewalk. I mean, 

Jayashree: Gandhi died. Also, at no point did they have a consensus. It's not that then everyone said we are all on the same page. There was still a lot of dissent on it, except now that the dissent is this much, much 

Manisha: stronger voice. And it's in power. The dissenting voice is in power.

And it's in power. Yeah. That makes all the difference. Okay. Dear Abhinandan, I want to to ask you within the context of social justice, is everything and anything allowed? Is any social justice activist, if any social justice activist utters or performs an act that is unacceptable to the liberal mind outside the social justice context, is it still justified?

If not, then you should at least acknowledge that some acts of Shri Shri Periyar are not acceptable even [01:29:00] within the context in which they were said. There are plenty of such utterances and acts of his. You can read about this in the wire. 

Abhinandan: So Ashish, I've read the piece that you sent, which is politics 

Manisha: to 

Abhinandan: ease and to be, yeah.

So, um, you know, Pandya's main points on the latest article. So, uh, I mean, one is, I mean, I'll take specifically what you've said is anything allowed. I think that is not for me to allow or disallow. If it's not allowed, you'll be arrested for it. But yeah, anything is allowed. I mean, I'm not talking about allowed.

I'm like, can you back it? With an argument that is credible, it can convince people. So that's why I avoid using the word allowed or not allowed. You know, that's not what I'm talking about, but, uh, in the context, uh, again, it's a little nuance, but generally, yes, I'd say that, for example, I think when the Congress, some bunch of Congress workers, uh, cut a cow and served beef or something in Kerala, just a few years [01:30:00] ago, it was a pointlessly provocative thing.

I think it was a dumb thing to do. And in today's day and age, you're not so, but if, um, in a village it's done because, uh, a Dalit individual was flogged. For example, for eating beef and in that they sat outside a Brahmin's house and did it. It's provocative. It's nasty, but I'd say yes, it's justified. Um, if you've read this book and it is a classic example of great intellect being used in very petty ends, it's called Worshipping False Gods by Arun Shourie.

It's a very petty book and it's very sad a man with such intellect could do that. Intellectual caliber will write such a petty book, Baba Ambedkar said some very horrible and offensive things, but in his context, I think, yes, it was justified. So when you say is anything and everything justified, I, I mean, I don't know, but the specific examples that I know of Ambedkar and Periyar in their context and how their people were treated, I'd say [01:31:00] the justified, um, anyway.

Jayashree: Yeah, I think also because the article that in question, I mean, I remember reading the series when it came out and one of them was that Periyar was a Brahmin hater because hate he for mongered hate amongst Brahmins. Maybe you would construe it like that, but also it was. An outcome of what he was living through at the time.

So I get it. And two, when you're saying, are you allowed to say it? I mean, I think literally he's linked to articles in the wire where one said one thing about, and these are all written by progressives, mind you, like they're not written by right wingers, whatever. So one criticized it, then there was a rebuttal, and then there was a third article about it.

So this is discourse that exists. Exactly. Right. It is. Keep saying different 

Abhinandan: things, so I mean, I think it can be reasonably defended. 

Manisha: Jamuna Rama Krishna says, dear Nl team, I listen to both NL HTA and NL Chacha and enjoy both enormously. I started listening to NLC, which is Chacha, to improve my Hindi, but then realize how different they are in the news topic they cover and the guests invited.

And so now also listen out of share interest, a question. How do you decide which topics to focus on in each edition of. [01:32:00] NLH and NLC, is it up to the week's host or the managing editor? Suggestion, now that NL has teamed up with TNM, would it be possible to have TNM's participation in Charcha? Oh, getting, I don't think they'd be happy speaking Hindi.

Maybe Shabbir speaks Hindi, so you can get him. Does he? Yeah, he speaks Hindi. Yeah. I mean, quite fluent. I'm sure they have some folks who are fluent in Hindi. I feel strongly that it would be a good thing to provide more access to news and views from South India to those who live in North and only listen to Hindi news reports.

Yeah, maybe we can ask Shabbir to sometimes join Charcha. Yes, 

Abhinandan: we will. Point taken. Uh, also the question, how do we decide? Uh, just the host decides, yeah. It's, and me and Atul don't really talk, so I often don't know what he's going to talk about. He doesn't know what I'm talking about. You don't 

Manisha: talk on this?

Abhinandan: On this, no. Yeah, otherwise we talk. We don't say, ki, what is up on Harjit Haftan 

Manisha: don't. Okay, S Srinath says that he's been following our work for a long time, is a paid subscriber, and congratulations on all the work we do. He says he lives in the US. [01:33:00] Uh, and every Saturday morning begins with nuisance followed by hafta and he usually cherishes the discussion and diverse viewpoints.

Do he criticizes, he has critique to offer and he says on 478, I found the whole discussion on Modi discussion to be a huge red herring when it comes to India's system of democracy. Specifically, Manisha mentioned when an Indian voter goes to vote, we choose the PM. Ho gaya parliament democracy ka moe moe.

With all due respect, we are not a presidential system where the president is separate from the legislature. We are meant to MPs, and then post election math is meant to define who gets to be the PM. Modi ji says chahiye, but it's largely to his and BJP's credit that they've subverted the foundational mechanism of how Indian voters voices are meant to count.

This is also a significant failure of our civics education where people are mostly clueless about how government gets elected. elected and operate at the municipal, state and national levels. Uh, I'd suggest getting a panel together to discuss how parliamentary democracies are meant to work and what checks and balances we could put in place.

Born up, he's [01:34:00] born in Dehradun and brought up in Dehradun. So he feels a vicarious pride to see folks with a Dehradun connection, upholding whatever is, whatever is left of the free press. Thanks 

Abhinandan: Dehradun people here. But, um, on this, I will say I. Of course, I agree with what you're saying in principle, but the fact is that people vote for the leader.

I mean, not every, not every vote, but the amount of votes that come because of the, who's the PM face or CM face 

Manisha: is. I mean, we have a situation now where Modi's winning state elections on his face. So you're. You know, you have this persona as your prime minister. And I, I would say that the Congress has also invested quite a lot of their communication into pushing the idea of Rahul as the principal challenger to Modi.

It's not just a fabrication to the point that, uh, I think this is what Anand had suggested in one of the Haftas. And I think it was a Komi Kapoor piece also, or Neerja, I'm confusing between the two, but which effectively said that. Uh, the [01:35:00] name Kharge propped up, thrown by, uh, Mamata and Arvind, was because Congress was pushing Rahul and they wanted to subtly signal anyone but Rahul.

They were happy with the Congress PM face, so it can be Kharge, but don't push Rahul on us. So, this is a narrative that even they are invested in. Uh, Renu Jha says, the point made by Abhinandan on how Modi won't last a year if free press and debates were allowed finds mention in October 1818 article written by James Silk Buckingham in Calcutta Journal.

Abhinandan: He knew back then, I'd say this, achha, I thought, my joke fell flat like all uncle jokes, that's 

Manisha: why. I refused to laugh. 

Jayashree: And Manisha didn't notice it. And speechless. What a tragic 

Manisha: end. Of all the remedies proposed for checking evils inseparable from authority exercising almost above all. Absolute power.

There's none that can be compared with a free press. When men know that the eyes of the world to be upon them and that their conduct will be scrutinized by the enemies and friends, they are more [01:36:00] careful to act justly than when they know that their acts will be neither seen nor questioned. It's more agreeable to all men to act without control than to submit to to the censure of others.

Whoever has the power to render himself irresponsible will be sure to do so. It is the problem of law to set the limits to the exercise of his power and therefore all men and authority, especially those despotically inclined and were conscious that they conduct will not stand the test of free discussion, hate this operation of the law and also the upright administrators.

This is produced from a book by Madhvi Diwan. Named Facets of Law and says that Anand must be familiar with this if he had media law as a subject in his first year. In fact, Anand has a few sugge I think he suggested to get her for Hafta. She's written some really good stuff on the media. We should actually get her in one of the Haftas because I remember Anand telling me about her.

Okay. Deep Tea says I've been a subscriber for a while, but this is the first time I'm [01:37:00] writing to you. My husband and I are huge fans of News Laundry, especially nfta. Please, please, please read this letter during HTA episode and make my day love the whole NL team, but especially a big fan of, and then we are proud to be contributing to free news, and your podcast are the best part of my day.

I had a question. I've recently become an NRI. How can I keep paying for subscriptions and contribute to NLIR projects without causing any issue for you guys? Some organizations cannot accept money. Uh, from anyone but Indian citizens and residents. Additionally, Abhinandan travels to so many countries.

Why not New Zealand? It's beautiful and we'll be honored to hear you in person. Also, we're tired of being surrounded by a diaspora that's so communal and bigoted. We sometimes go out of our way to avoid befriending other Indians. If you hold an event in Auckland. I'm a I might actually get to see people who see India as more than the land glorified by the sacrifices of our dear dictator.

I know I sound selfish, but it would be nice. Yeah, and you can eat some good avocados 

Abhinandan: also. Yeah, so Deepti, first of all, uh, most important things first, you can continue to support [01:38:00] us. There is no issue of subscribers. Basically, look at New Zealandia's subscription like an Economist, New York Times, uh, Economic Times, uh, uh, Indian Express.

We are offering a service. We have subscription driven enterprise, and we can take subscribers from anywhere in the world. So on that, there's absolutely no problem for us. Only if you're an NGO or not for profit, is there an issue in taking for FCRA, you know, what Yamini was talking about. So on that, do and tell your friends, contribute.

Thank you so much for your support. Really appreciate it. I will check if there are any universities in Australia and New Zealand that want to invite me. But usually whenever I go, I've been invited to speak at some university. So I fly there and I do. You know, one, one Chi. No. So I go there and I do a subscriber meet also, but yes, we'll keep this.

Manisha: So we'll be called some university that needs to call us. Yes, . Um, so the other letters from Sandhi, he's a big fan, loves [01:39:00] Ccha and uh, subscribe for Chacha. And he says, I really. And he says that one of the episode with Dr. S. Y. Qureshi was one of the best. I really got to know a lot about elections in our country and its magnanimous scale.

He never imagined that, uh, given my limited school of thoughts regarding Cut this out. His remarks about three takeaways from Rajasthan CM election when CP Joshi lost really ignited the spark in me to vote again. Wow, that's good. Uh, the question here being, is there any way an Indian citizen while living abroad can vote like in the nearest Indian embassy?

I fell into horseshit of propaganda and disinformation as a first time voter years ago and I want to rectify it. Lastly, your podcasts are really thought provoking, full of knowledge. They really put my mind to work when I'm driving long haul and News Laundry has been my companion on the roads for so many years.

Yay. That's really nice to hear. Says, uh, he, Does miss Daily Dose and a big hi to me from the land of kangaroos. Hello. Hello. Uh, can you please play this video on your show the next time? So [01:40:00] that some extreme followers have an idea of not portraying an elected representative like a ducking God. 

Abhinandan: So basically the clip is when an Australian man interrupts the prime minister.

It's the project that creates the jobs and the income limits we've put on.

Sure. Let's just move back from there. Come on.

Hey guys, I've just reseated that. Yeah, please, drop the thing.

Sorry, man. All good? It's all good. Thanks. Yeah, I completely agree. In fact, I mentioned, uh, this, uh, I mean, this press conference an earlier hafta. But you're absolutely right. You know, you should be able to talk to your PM. In whatever, yeah, without any consequences, like, oh, ab kya hoga mera? 

Manisha: Vivek says, compliments on the excellent work that you're doing and, uh, looking forward to your upcoming election coverage.

Just want the panel's opinion on the general [01:41:00] elections, which are pretty much a done deal, if you believe Koti Media. Personally, I feel some positive momentum building towards the India Alliance, and I have a gut feeling that the election would be key. Would like to hear the panel's thought on this. Well, I'm really looking forward to what our reporters tell us, because they're going on the ground and they're the best people who can tell us what they're sensing and feeling.

We're also going to be hitting the ground, so I think I'll reserve this for the hafta when I'm back. 

Jayashree: But I think Virik's letter has followed an entire episode where we discussed how well, yes, you know, and who's coming back next year. 

Manisha: Hi, you guys are too inevitable. I mean, even though I personally believe this.

Who's you guys? Jayshree was so inevitable about it, Riyani 

Abhinandan: So I mean, my friend, thank you so much for your support. First of all, really appreciate it. Uh, but if you've been listening to Hafta for the last years, I never call an election ever. Yeah. And I always say that there is no way to tell. I mean, people can say inevitable, but honestly, unless one does a very poll at a next [01:42:00] different level, there is no way to tell.

And 

Manisha: that's what I believe. Anonymous says, after having a conversation with a few BJP fans, I've come to realize that it's not just fandom or hate for Muslims. Fandom for Modi, I'm guessing, not for Muslims. It's the idea of India that they have, which is different from what others do. There's this thought process of since we are more in number, we get the priority on everything.

I might be wrong in my judgment here. So wanted to know what you think. What is the idea of India for a Narendra Modi based on whatever you've been able to understand? How do you think it differs from what the country was built on? One of whose cornerstones was equal rights for everyone. Also, just a suggestion, your Let's Talk About series is amazing, but your Underselling it right now.

Itna meinat daal do, IGYT pe. The depth of content deserves more eyes and ears. Yes, aapne humare mooh ki baat cheeli. Yes, you're absolutely right, Anonymous. hain, we should make reels and yeah. 

Abhinandan: My view is that Mr. Modi's, uh, idea of India when he started and now is very different. I think now he believes he's bigger than God and RSS.

So. It'll evolve. [01:43:00] His idea of India today is that Modi must be worshipped, no matter what, and anyone who opposes him should be in prison. Uh, but I think when he started, his idea of India was a Hindu Rashtra. I think right now it's somewhere between a Modi 

Manisha: Rashtra and a Hindu Rashtra. Modi Rashtra. Has he 

Jayashree: always talked about himself in third person though in speeches?

Even like way back, 

Abhinandan: it's become thing become more, it's it's, I mean, the extent of it is like it's anoma level now. 

Manisha: Yeah, anonymous, another letter by anonymous says the line of work I'm in. I do interact with a lot of people overseas since KG Wells. The rest, I've had multiple acquaintances come up to me and ask, what's going on in India?

Are these things starting to create a splash abroad? Do you think it raises alarms in the west if India starts shedding its democracy tag? More importantly, why is Modi acting like this pre-election? Has he seen hints that the trends are an autonomous favor, or is it just arrogance? No, I don't think it's for trends, uh, not being in this favor.

I think it's this urge for near total control and [01:44:00] annihilation of dissent and competition. I think it's really, I don't even know if it's got to do with Lok Sabha. It could very well be assembly elections. So, yeah. And arrogance, of course, you can get away with it. But let's see what happens in the Delhi elections.

This letter has been a few weeks coming. I thought I'll write it on your 12 years anniversary, but I guess what the hell. is a strong motivator than well said. Manisha, I've been an admirer through and through and I love your takes on everything but on last hafta, if not Modi, who argument was appalling?

To cut short, I know Rahul received a lot of chances thanks to nepotism. We must not forget that no one else has been hounded like he has with continued scorn and contempt. 24x7 on social and news for more than 10 years now. People fumble, make mistakes but the attention has been astounding when it comes to him.

He may not be fit to be PM but we have PM who says on camera that he doesn't care to go through the files as a CM. Also, isn't the job of PM to be guided by the advisors to [01:45:00] devise policy with which in which respect he or anyone else may do far better than the current pair playing footsie with our democracy.

Love to have that team. Thank you for keeping me sane. So that's not really my, uh, argument. I was saying that this is what the voter thinks. And now we've discussed enough why, how through the episode. So I hope that answers some of your. 

Abhinandan: Um, Onika, I have a question. Are you Bengali? Why? Just because I'm thinking it's Anika, but it's become Onika.

Onika. Like Anindya becomes Onindyo. I'm just wondering. Or is Onika a different name altogether? So yeah, that's. But thank you for your support and, and, and for your. Thank you. 

Manisha: Yes. Thanks a lot. Anonymous says, hi NL team. I've been a subscriber from mid 2021 and cannot thank, thank you all enough for your high quality ground reports, content, especially podcasts, hafta and charsha that I've consumed.

I also want to share this. Also wanted to share this site I came across on Reddit, which shows EB data in a nice manner, has both political party profiles [01:46:00] and company profiles with timeline and reference to news articles, thought it might be useful. Thank you. I'm going to forward this to our reporters who are still working on the story.

It's not, it's not off yet. Yeah. Anonymous. I think the bias of both Abhinandan and Manisha is so evident that has been pointed out by subscribers. Abhinandan thinks that KGY is more acceptable nationwide and Manisha thinks everything was wrong with the conditions of Rahul Gandhi. Maybe we all need to be more mindful and watch our biases.

I hope we were more mindful this episode. Yeah. And you took something away from it, but okay, we'll keep this in mind. Anonymous says, hi team. Just wanted to drop a quick note to say how much I enjoy NL Hafta. I get a kick out of listening to Abhinandan on the podcast, even though we often see things differently.

It's like a mental sparring match during my long drive from Gurgaon to Dehradun. Oh wow, you're driving every day from Gurgaon to Dehradun? Every day? I mean, how far is that? I don't think he said every day. No, I don't think he said every day, but then I'm guessing if it's like a regular weekly thing [01:47:00] because he's listening to Hafta Weekly.

But anyway, keeps me wide awake as I ponder how I counter his arguments if we were face to face. Areva. Recently stumbled upon the CPI manifesto and it really caught me off guard. Withdrawal from strategic alliance of the U. S. is one of the points. Can't tell if it's legit or just AI generated in this day and age.

If it is real, I'm curious about your take on it and how the party plans to pitch these ideas to voters. Also, I was wondering if you guys are planning a deep dive into the manifesto of other major parties. On a side note, when is Anand coming back? He's unwell. He should be back soon. But Anand has um I have 

Jayashree: read that manifesto thing he's talked I mean, I saw I saw it online what he's referring to.

It's an excerpt from the CPI manifesto, CPIM's manifesto, where they're criticizing India's, uh, inability to ask unqualifiedly for a ceasefire. And it says that because the Modi government is still trying to sort of soften its ties and keep its ties with the U. S. US imperialism is sort of driving [01:48:00] India's response to what is a genocide in Palestine.

So that was the context. And then I think the critique that came in was in the manifesto, it said that India needs to sort of rejoin the non aligned movement. Modi has no longer, no longer attends the NAM summits. Only, I think Jaishankar went for it in Jan. So I mean, when he's saying, I will, sorry, when he's saying, how will voters Be okay with it.

I mean, I don't think a voter has to agree with every single thing in a manifesto, right? The manifesto is just sort of a rundown of all 

Manisha: their ideas and thoughts. Also, see, manifesto will always give something to the core voter, the core believers. And anti America is, is a core belief of, just like BJP will throw in a triple talaq.

I mean, the May not matter to everyone, but a core BJP voter will be moved back. So, they are doing the same for their core voter base. And just No one in the country cares, obviously. And just the 

Abhinandan: fact that, even given the context of what Russia is doing in Ukraine, Those podcast with, uh, URI, he asked him that, you know, CPM had actually put out a statement actively supporting Russia.

Manisha: Kaha left 'cause of that. No, Kaha had a [01:49:00] huge issue with them 'cause of, 

Abhinandan: so, I mean, you know, and you could make out his uncomfortable, but that is their ideological position, so they have to take that position. We start

that, that confidence that the workers and the farmers have in the red flag. On economic issues. Yeah, that degree of confidence We have not been able to generate on social and social oppression 

Rasheed: issues It 

Abhinandan: became like one of those match the following exercises, you know Wherein I really couldn't tell apart the lines of at least CPI ML will keep it aside for a second CPI, CPM, I just couldn't tell the line apart.

But this reunification talk, right? The CPI always seems to have its door open, and the CPM seems to, what, have a door half open, closed? Right now, between the CPI and us, on most of the positions, there's a [01:50:00] commonality. But then, you know, the flippant response to that would be that the communists sit across in these coffee houses and they're discussing theory while the country is burning.

That is 

Rasheed: what 

Manisha: I don't want to do. Hello Hafta team, Dave D says. Was reading an article linked to, linked in one of Mr. Abhinandan's? Retweets. How much should the nation state be concerned about the growing socio economic divide between the North and South, along with the resentment about it in the South?

Hoping to have this discussion as a discussion topic between Newsman and Hafta team. You know, you can just do a let's talk about on it. Let's talk about the North South divide could be very useful, especially after elections when we see what happens. For the Hafta team, mainly from North, how much do you agree with the below quotes?

Arre, we are not mainly from the North. The North has been denied development for so long, it has stopped believing in it. And the citizen in the North is content to have become a Labharti. Well, 

Abhinandan: it's a sweeping, yeah, it's, it's a lot more complicated than that. But I think the broader question, I [01:51:00] mean, it's very simple and it's a non nuanced answer is that.

A widening disparity, economic disparity among, uh, you know, a population like India, especially, you know, they say that the, in US the disparity is a lot more than India, but that's because the billionaires are way richer than Indian billionaires. Although Indian billionaires have like reached like 92 or something.

I don't know what, what the number is like in, in Bombay alone, I don't know how many there are. Uh, the difference is that in America, the poorest are way richer than even the middle class of India. So the social friction that can occur is huge. And this example I give always is, and this is when I was shooting a documentary, I have like uncle, I'm sure Manisha is sick of it.

I don't know if Jayshree's been doing hafta long enough to get the same story again. I was shooting a documentary in the early 2000s, between 2001, 2003 in Rajasthan on water harvesting. Uh, And there, there were, you know, these old royals, quote, unquote, [01:52:00] the fifth son of the eighth concubine of the fifth nephew of some fucking king somewhere or the others has inherited one Haveli in an otherwise like bunghole villages, like nothing there, like there's so much poverty, but there's this one big Haveli and they've turned half of it into a hotel and they charge, you know, 18, 000 rupees a night that has a swimming pool.

People outside don't have water to drink. I think it's a question of time, and in India, the only reason they do it, and I, the same, the guy came out, he was from a fancy public school of India, 24, 25 man sitting there, touched his feet, when he left, I asked that man, Like, why would you touch his feet? He's the grandson's agent.

He's not done anything for you. He says, humare aya aisa like this for us. I think disparity does it, does more of that. But it does it not in some back or beyond village in Rajasthan, it does it in Bombay, it does it in Delhi. That's, that's, that's a very fragile society. So you can't have such, [01:53:00] you know, disparity in a country as poor as India.

America can still get away with it. I thought 

Jayashree: I thought the Bloomberg, I mean, the Bloomberg story, it wasn't, well, the one that he referenced, well, it wasn't groundbreaking. I thought it quite clearly and simply sort of identified why there is this sort of disparity between North and South. Also, I think it very well explained why there's so much fear and tension about the idea of delimitation.

And I think that That's currently a point that we're sort of glossing over now, which is, I also wanted to bring it up before when I was talking about Tamil Nadu, which is that I do think the BJP, I mean, my, I don't think the BJP will do as well in the state, but also it doesn't really matter as much because from the next election, they'll have eight seats.

Let's right. Tamil Nadu will lose about eight seats. Kerala will lose about eight. I think Karnataka will lose what two and AP Telangana together will also lose about eight. So that is also how the entire nature of this election will change. So. Hmm. 

Abhinandan: Prasad 

Manisha: Vasudevan says, regarding Hafta [01:54:00] 277, I have lived in three cities, Bombay, Delhi and Bhopal.

I think most Indians, for some reason, do not know about other Indian states. Delhi person may know about Hindi neighboring states as they may have relatives there, etc. But they don't know anything about South India. Mumbai people do not even know where Bhopal is. And Bhopal educated people ask questions ki like, tu South India,

In my native place, Biharis, everyone is referred to as Bengalis for some reason. Maybe because India is so diverse, but people are ignorant, not just about party politics, but also about socio cultural aspects in other regions as well. I totally agree. Completely 

Abhinandan: agree. completely clueless about and that is why it's a miracle India is you know like a Punjabi has more in common with someone across his border than he does with someone in Nagaland or someone it's yeah which is I think Bollywood keeps us together like never before and if Bollywood decides to do the role it's doing So you can write into us with your [01:55:00] feedback or critique.

Most of the letters today were actually quite, uh, nice and complimentary. Uh, but do tell us, you know, what you'd like to see better of, where you disagree, you know, educate us so much. In fact, you know, twice I've changed my position, uh, on things because of, you know, mails that have come from you guys. Uh, and we did a podcast on one of those Chandrayaan.

So podcasts at newsland. com or click in the link in the show notes below. Let's get the recommendations out of the way. What do you have for us, Jayshree? 

Jayashree: Yeah, I have two recommendations. So the first is I read Ram Chandra Gohar's latest book, which is the cooking of books. 

Abhinandan: Oh yeah. How is 

Jayashree: it? Oh, it's been such a long time since I've been so delighted by a book.

So it's about the relationship between Ram Goha and his very famously reticent editor Rukun Advani. So they'd met in college when the more, you know, intellectual Rukun sort of dismissed Ram Goha as this frivolous cricket obsessed sportsman. And then he turned into this sort of towering historian. So the story is told about how their paths crossed, how they [01:56:00] built their relationship.

through the emails and the letters that they used to exchange. And, you know, the more gregarious, very centrist, optimistic Gohan, how he spars with this Rukun over politics and people and personalities, how they agree that Shashi Tharoor, who was also in college with them, was, you know, like a bit of a blowhard, who aren't really liked.

And it's also the history of, you know, OUP in India. How books are shaped. And I don't, I don't know if like it appealed to me even more because I'm an editor as well, but it's just so well told and so interesting to sort of see the dynamic between these 

Manisha: two. Oh, wow. I want to read it. Great job setting the book.

Off a particular 

Jayashree: time. Right. And like all the characters you can think of sort of pop up like randomly there. Talking about things that Mughal K7 strolls in and Irfan Habib appears out of nowhere, and it's just, I don't know, I found it very compelling. So it's a great read, please buy it. Um, my second recommendation is a long read from The Guardian from a couple of years ago, but I only read it, um, recently.

So it's an excellent example of how a single incident can make for a very beautifully reported long form story. So basically in June 2019, a man was [01:57:00] drinking beer in the garden of his house. home in London. He was looking up at the planes flying overhead, making their final approach to Heathrow airport, and he saw something falling.

So he thought it was a bag, but then it got bigger and bigger and he realized it was a person. And that person plummeted to the earth from a Kenya Airways Boeing Dreamliner. So it is the story of stowaways. It was the police investigation into a man who was trying to stowaway on a Kenya Airways flight.

And it's about how these people sort of embark on these suicidal missions to hide in the wheel well of passenger jets. Some survive, most die, but also why do they do it? And who is this man? So the story is titled, Out of Thin Air, The Mystery of the Man Who Fell from the Sky. 

Manisha: Please read it. So we have two excellent pieces on News Laundry and I really want to urge our subscribers to read them because you have access to the paywall and those who don't subscribe to News Laundry must subscribe to read these two stories.

At least one story. One of the stories is behind the paywall. This is a profile of ANI and its business and a lot has been written about [01:58:00] ANI but this is really interesting new information. Uh, I found it kind of Quite stunning that as a story details, they have something which is called a PR package, which they have with state governments, which entails any and I camera, maybe following a chief minister through events and charging the government for it.

So it has a lot of interesting nuggets on the business of a and I. So, definitely read it if you're a subscriber. If you're not a subscriber, subscribe to News Laundry and read this profile. It's really worth your time. Um, then the second piece, again, is on News Laundry. This one is outside the paywall, but it's been funded by our subscribers.

This is part of the Modi 2. 0 report card. Uh, it's an election fund, uh, Um, project, which is the Sena that we have for our election fund. And the idea is to assess schemes. It's a really deep dive piece on P-M-J-A-Y, which is the Prime Minister's ana, which is insurance. Really detailed [01:59:00] assessment in clear, simple language.

Uh, good comparison with the UPA ears a must read, especially in the selection time. 

Abhinandan: So, uh, I have this one recommendation, which is. It's a short podcast from Planet Money's series called The Indicator, but it talks about how Russia, in spite of sanctions, how does it get its oil around the country, around the world?

And one country that mentioned several times. Who's buying oil from them is India. And I was just wondering that all these ships are not registered. So there's, you know, there is a security concern because some of these ghost ships, because they don't have to meet standards of safety of the environmentally.

So there have been a history of these ships that are not registered in the maritime, whatever regulatory framework of the world, sinking or breaking or leaking. Uh, so [02:00:00] I was just wondering, what is the legality of these entering India and giving us oil and can they be used for anything? It just was. I didn't know it was so gray, even like official oil that's coming into our country.

And secondly, um, I think it's important we keep reminding ourselves because a lot of my recommendations the last few years have been about the Rwandan genocide. Purely because what a big role the media played, how the world stood back and watched. And it was their 30th anniversary. last week, a few days ago.

And in fact, on their 30th anniversary, Bill Clinton called it the biggest failing of his presidency, not stepping in. So it's a good time to remind ourselves of that. And there's one podcast dedicated to it. It's from the BBC. Um, so it's called My Return to Rwanda, 30 years after fleeing the genocide.

Everyone, every, every society thinks that they're very far away from this. No society is very far away from this. We are just a few leaders and a few media houses away from this. [02:01:00] So, yeah, these are my two recommendations on that note, I would like to thank our panel Manisha and Jayashree and thank our sound recordist Anil and Priyali, our producer, who's going to be going to Kerala.

Manisha: Yeah, I'm not going to be Cochin. Yeah, Manisha won't 

Abhinandan: be here next week. In the heat. Yeah, of course. Don't go then. 

Manisha: It's so cool. We've already booked 

Abhinandan: the tickets. Oh. Is there a cancel charge or is it non refundable? Non refundable. Cheaper to have non re Okay. Very clever. So, on that note, uh, I do hope you will contribute and pay to keep news free.

This is going to be a very heavy spending month. We have Yeah. How many people traveling? About 14, 

Manisha: 15? Yeah. Every All reporters are traveling. Yeah, everyone's traveling, which is really a luxury, by the way. Most newsrooms don't have 

Abhinandan: that. And we can do that because we depend on you. So pay to keep news free, top up NL Sena projects.

We have four. Share it with your 

Manisha: friends. Oh, and maybe we can announce, uh, the new [02:02:00] show that's going to 

Abhinandan: come. Well, we're doing a show with Sreenivasan Jain. Yes, a six part series. A six part miniseries. And we may do some more depending on how much money you can top up for us. Because we want to get more and more journalists to partner with us on various shows.

So we can become the hub of, you know, all journalists around the country across languages. So do contribute so we can, you know, do many more such partnerships. And also, uh, another very well respected and awarded journalist, Ritesh Joshi, is going to be covering elections along with our team. So yeah, I leave you with this song with the hope that you will go from here, click on the link.

on NL Sena and give 500 bucks, thousand bucks, whatever you can give, but fund journalism. Adios.[02:03:00] 

Manisha: for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest news laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts. 

Abhinandan: And you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad free and subscriber funded.

Help us grow. Tell people who listen to you to pay to keep news free. Subscribe to News Laundry. Keep journalism independent.