Hafta 573: Funding the ‘circus’ in Davos as the net tightens on press freedom in Kashmir

This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Jayashree Arunachalam are joined by journalist and entrepreneur Govindraj Ethiraj. 

The discussion starts with the recently concluded World Economic Forum held in Davos. Abhinandan sharply questions the performative nature of Indian participation at the forum, criticising chief ministers for announcing Memorandums of Understanding (MoUs) with Indian companies on foreign soil. “We are funding the circus,” Jayashree remarks bluntly, calling Davos a “clown show” driven by optics rather than outcomes.

Govindraj also agrees that announcing MoUs, especially with Indian firms, is a misallocation of time and attention, given how the WEF offers leaders “an opportunity to gauge the temperature of what is happening in the world order right now”.  

The discussion also touches on the much-touted India-EU free trade agreement, which European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen described as the “mother of all deals”. Govindraj, however, tempers expectations, warning that free trade agreements are often narrow and slow-moving. “The first bottle of cheaper Scotch won’t arrive tomorrow – it could take five years,” he quips.

He further adds, “The red lines for India are clearly dairy and agricultural products… You can’t do something which immediately jeopardises your farming lobby. ​So, if you take away agriculture and cheese, what’s left now?”

From Davos, the conversation shifts to press freedom in Jammu and Kashmir. Speaking on the recent summonses issued to national media reporters by the J&K Police, Manisha remarks, “Over the last one year, at least 25 journalists have been summoned... anything at all can land you in a police station being questioned,” all in the name of ‘public disorder’ or ‘public safety’.

Drawing a contrast between reporters in New Delhi and Kashmir, Abhinandan says, “It’s very difficult for someone in J&K to tough it out because there is no insulation. Delhi provides great insulation; that’s why those headquartered in Delhi have to step up and protect their reporters who are not in Delhi.

This and a lot more. Tune in!

Hafta Letters: Abhinandan ‘should stop generalising’ and Jayashree’s ‘tedious tirade’

If you want to write to Hafta, click here. Click here to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the Newslaundry store and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the Newslaundry app.

Song:  Luka Chuppi

Timecodes

00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements

00:04:40  - Headlines 

00:17:15 - WEF Davos / India- Eu trade deals 

00: 55:59 - Govind’ recommendations

01:08:51 - Kashmir reporter’s summoning 

01:17:35 - Letters

01:28:07 -  Recommendations

References

Republic Day offer

Kashmir Ki Kahani

Naxalbari Comic

Recommendations

Abhinandan 

Power ballot: Japanese PM’s electoral gamble

Equality is not the enemy of growth – oligarchy is

Manisha 

Jerusalem

Burma Chronicles 

Jayashree 

A Global Explosion of Absurdly Spicy Foods

Sneha: 40 Years of Suicide Prevention in India, From Helpline to Policy Reform

Govindraj Ethiraj 

The Core Report

Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.

Produced by Amit Pandey, with assistant production by Ashish. Sound by Anil Kumar.

[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News laundry podcast, and you're listening to N.

[00:00:16] Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of Alta. We are recording this on the 23rd of January at 1113 in the morning from a deli that is raining, which means it's cold and now also wet. Finally 

[00:00:27] Manisha: clean air. Some 

[00:00:28] Abhinandan: air that is Manisha extracting the silver lining from a dark cloud. But wait, one move is yet left. Can you thought that silver lining je 

[00:00:37] Jayashree: the weather and Chennai is way better.

[00:00:39] Abhinandan: Okay, so that's it. You see, Chen, anything, anytime we extract something positive, Gehi is gonna just, I 

[00:00:44] Jayashree: mean, four Dehi, I'm sure it's fine. We 

[00:00:46] Manisha: are 

[00:00:47] Jayashree: very 

[00:00:48] Manisha: unhealthy air, 

[00:00:50] Abhinandan: so we are in that zone 

[00:00:51] Manisha: 200 

[00:00:54] Abhinandan: we have in the, on the panel today. You take 

[00:00:56] Jayashree: your wins where you can get them, 

[00:00:58] Abhinandan: uh, a, a, a very [00:01:00] upbeat Manisha Pande.

[00:01:00] Abhinandan: Welcome Manisha. 

[00:01:01] Jayashree: Hi 

[00:01:03] Abhinandan: Yeshi. A I'm joining us from Chennai. 

[00:01:04] Jayashree: Hello, hello, 

[00:01:06] Abhinandan: and joining us is Govinda Raj from Mumbai. Hi. Hi Govin. Just the introduction. Many of our listeners and viewers are already familiar with you. Govin is a television and print journalist, a veteran. In fact, he is the founder of India, spend, boom, live.

[00:01:21] Abhinandan: And you were also the founding team of CNBC, if I'm not wrong. 

[00:01:25] Govind Ethiraj: Team. Yeah. Yeah. Not the founder 

[00:01:26] Abhinandan: founding team. Correct. Uh, and now he's the editor of the Core Business News Initiative he recently launched, which I listen to every morning. And we were just talking about today's episode to prove to him that I wasn't guessing.

[00:01:39] Abhinandan: Uh, and in case I lose any money on silver, I'm going lean in Bomber and rob his house earlier. You 

[00:01:45] Govind Ethiraj: likewise. If you make money, also do give a shout. 

[00:01:48] Abhinandan: Oh.

[00:01:53] Abhinandan: Or like I should have, you know, on all my financial statements, your photograph on my COVID, on [00:02:00] everything. It should be your photograph. Uh, but he was also the founder editor Inchi of Bloomberg tv. He has lc editorial roles at Business Standard CNBC TV 18 and the Economic Times. He's a fellow of the Aspen Institute.

[00:02:12] Abhinandan: He is also the McNulty Prize, I dunno how to pronounce his word, but it is spelled L-A-U-R-E-H-E-E. 

[00:02:18] Jayashree: Laureate 

[00:02:19] Abhinandan: Laureate and the recipient of the BMW Foundation Responsible Leadership Award. Do they give you a car for this? 

[00:02:24] Govind Ethiraj: No. No, 

[00:02:26] Abhinandan: then I don't care. Okay. Uh, with that, I'd also like to remind all of you, either you're listening to this while you're coming back from your long weekend or going to your long weekend, which is the Republic Day weekend.

[00:02:40] Abhinandan: 77 years ago, India became a republic. As flags are hoisted and parades are marched on to, it's a moment to remember that rights only matter when they're protected and free. And independent media is often your first and not so often your last line of defense. Now you can look around and [00:03:00] see where that's going, and that is because it is heavily dependent on large corporations and government ads.

[00:03:07] Abhinandan: Advertisements cannot hold government to power because they. Are they belong to organizations that need the government and often they are the government ads. We take no ads and that is why we appeal to you to fund and support our journalism. There's a QR code right here and there's a link in the show notes.

[00:03:27] Abhinandan: Many of you who are subscribers, I'm just giving you a heads up over the next two or three months because we've been a subscriber driven initiative for 13 or 14 years now, Manisha, uh, the subscription brackets keep changing and vary. We have some, so we were just doing a data crunch and there are very fragmented kind of subscription bands.

[00:03:50] Abhinandan: We are gonna be like consolidating them into two or three. You'll be here getting mails from Manisha, me and our subscription team. Please do cooperate and help us just [00:04:00] consolidate. It makes it much easier for us to plan. Next year and grow. And that's gonna help you and us because we'll be able to do more with less.

[00:04:10] Abhinandan: So thank you Supporting Evangel Journalism by Joint Subscription News on News Minute. This is the Republic Day weekend. It's a good time to tell your friend relative who are talking about the importance of a sovereign, socialist, secular, and democratic republic. I dunno how many of those words are still relevant, but at least we can make freedom of speech and freedom to be informed, relevant.

[00:04:33] Abhinandan: So do click on the link or scan this QR code with that very long appeal. Let's get to the headline. 

[00:04:41] Jayashree: Okay, so here are the headlines for the week, at least six reporters working for major national publications have been summoned by the Jam Kmi Police. They were, those were summoned, were asked to sign bonds to keep the peace.

[00:04:52] Jayashree: One with the Indian Express, was told to sign a bond promising he wouldn't repeat his mistake. Uh, multiple press groups condemned. [00:05:00] The editors Guild of India said, standout coercion and intimidation of journalists. We will discuss this in some detail. 

[00:05:06] Manisha: Yeah. 

[00:05:07] Jayashree: Also, three states had issues with their respective governors This week in the Karnataka assembly, p broke out after the Governor.

[00:05:13] Jayashree: Gallo thread out only two lines of his customer address. The speech was actually 122 paragraphs. He objected to 11 paragraphs because they were critical of the BJP LED center in Tam to governor. A and Ravi walked outta the assembly. He declined to deliver the address prepared by the government. He later said the national Anthem had been disrespected.

[00:05:31] Jayashree: May I point out this is his fourth walkout in four years, so everyone expected it to happen. Also, every year he gets upset about the national anthem because TAM Assembly will begin with a Tamar at State Anthem. It'll end with the national anthem. Every year he comes and he gets upset about it and car.

[00:05:49] Jayashree: After the governor made his speech to the assembly and left, the chief minister made a speech where he corrected the Governor's address. He pointed out the governor had omitted sections of his speech and had made additions [00:06:00] elsewhere. So, yeah, and can I just say that this is, if nothing else. The greatest sign that the office of the governor must be abolished.

[00:06:10] Jayashree: It is a waste of money. I feel a disrupts functioning of the state. It was always designed to be a very ceremonial role. This thing, and especially I think they did it because in the House of Commons in the uk, the king will make a speech at the first session and then that this will follow. It just seems like a very meaningful, meaningless formality.

[00:06:26] Jayashree: So 

[00:06:27] Abhinandan: even keeping all that in mind, I think out of all the governors, partisan governors, how badly many have behaved. Yeah. This du governor has set a new standard on being childish, petty, and behaving like a 

[00:06:43] Jayashree: Yeah, agreed. Right in Manpo, a 29-year-old man was abducted and shot dead by unidentified assailants.

[00:06:51] Jayashree: Uh, a video of the killing circulated online. The victim was a mighty and had been living in the area with his Cookie Z wife in greater [00:07:00] noia. A 27-year-old software engineer died after his car plunged into a deep water filled construction pit. The police arrested three builders on charges of culpable homicide and negligence.

[00:07:11] Abhinandan: So somebody 

[00:07:11] Manisha: has horrified everyone. It was reported relentlessly 

[00:07:15] Abhinandan: for the 

[00:07:15] Manisha: last one. 

[00:07:16] Abhinandan: So I just wanna ask you, since you've been such a keen observer, what, you know, media reports, so I'm sure you have some sort of an understanding of why something gets more play and why some doesn't. One is of course, whether it's holding the government to account or not, this does hold the government to account.

[00:07:32] Abhinandan: Why do you think this story has got so much play, as it rightly should, but I was just curious. 

[00:07:38] Manisha: I think, uh, the nature of, to my mind and we, I was discussing this quite a bit with our nuisance team also. 

[00:07:46] music: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:46] Manisha: Even younger reporters, the one thing that really stands out is that the guy made every effort to try and come out of this alive.

[00:07:55] Manisha: You know, uh, he's for three hours asking for help on top [00:08:00] of his car, he has the presence of mind to get out, top the car, send his location to his father, immediately tell him where he is. I mean, I don't think I would've frozen in such a situation, but till the very end, he goes on and on and on asking for help, asking to be saved.

[00:08:16] Manisha: So from all accounts, we know that from 12 to close to two o'clock, he was just asking for help. So I think the ghastly nature of that and the relentlessness with which he tried to save himself and everyone else failed him, I think that really kind of has an emotional cord to it. And then the fact that you had the fire brigade there, you had the state disaster management there, you had the National Disaster Management there, you had the police there, and they all just watched for three hours the detailing of it, which has come out.

[00:08:47] Manisha: Uh, not the national, only the state depart, uh, state disaster was there, but. What eyewitnesses have said that the, the, at one point, the fire brigade, the staircase was not opening, they didn't [00:09:00] have a rope long enough. They didn't want to venture into that, uh, pond with boats because they were scared. Kiva for Jagger.

[00:09:07] Manisha: Some of them remarked the waters too cold. So the complete lack of preparedness 

[00:09:13] Abhinandan: or even concern 

[00:09:14] Manisha: all these guys, and for three hours for a guy to just scream, for help, for him to be just right in front of you and for everyone to fail from the fire department to the police, to the state. I mean, you didn't even have a floaty.

[00:09:26] Abhinandan: And there was one, um, 

[00:09:27] Manisha: to give him. There was one eyewitness who actually it was very painful to listen to his interview. News eighteens, j Uri got it where the, this is the first guy who called 1 1 2. He literally broke down on TV and he said, I should have just called my friends. They would've helped. I think like my own people would've done a better job of helping this man.

[00:09:45] Manisha: It's my mistake. I called the fire brigade police, and actually I was thinking why, again, I think everyone's talking about this because I think we all are thinking like, what if we had to help someone? I would've just called my friends. I think people would've made an effort. You know, somebody would've thought of [00:10:00] something for three hours, find a bigger rope, find something, give him a ball that, you know, he could hold onto to float because it is not like he would've died of a hypothermia or whatever.

[00:10:08] Manisha: Mm-hmm. What is not that cold would've been in shock, but he would've survived the night. 

[00:10:11] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:12] Manisha: The fact that the guy just drowned shouting for help for three hours. 

[00:10:16] Abhinandan: Yeah. And with the father there, I, and I just 

[00:10:18] Manisha: think with the father there, and 

[00:10:19] Abhinandan: one thing that I saw some, um, official only Sari official saying it is not mandatory for policemen to know how to swim.

[00:10:27] Manisha: Hmm. 

[00:10:28] Abhinandan: Uh, it's actually mandatory for them to know anything. And each time, you know, I get emails that why am I so critical? And dismissal of the police. I think they have done nothing to deserve any respect, which is why I have complete disdain for the police. This is the kind of shit that they don't do.

[00:10:48] Abhinandan: And then they sit and protest and whine that people are mean to us and we are being shoved around to. You guys are the most pathetic organization in the country. You deserve no respect. 

[00:10:57] Manisha: No. One of the, uh, the eyewitness only who called Emily, [00:11:00] who was the first to call 1 1 2, said that, uh, the one cop the senior was just taking videos.

[00:11:05] Manisha: He said, there's one, the ro Lean Thin Fair, who was really kind of running around, he was calling it the guy, sir. So he was kind of doing something. But there was one guy who simply taking videos. How can you take videos? Somebody's dying in front of you. 

[00:11:17] Abhinandan: You should actually name and shame these cops. 

[00:11:19] Manisha: So, and I think the other aspect that Youi did a very good story.

[00:11:22] Manisha: There are about 300 deaths in Delhi alone, which have completely fallen to the zone of somebody fell somewhere and drown. There was no fencing, whatever the first responders are. How illiquid are they in the city? Why does the fire brigade, why are they unable to open a stair? Why do they not, he said live.

[00:11:39] Manisha: So I, I mean, I'm, I get that swimming, uh, is an elite. I think maybe in the army everyone learns, but I get that cops may not know swimming, but why don't you have a life jacket? 

[00:11:49] Abhinandan: Yeah, but 'cause they know actually, other than swimming are like, no, what do they know? Except that to hold people back when their homes are destroyed with bulldozers, because there'll always be fewer in bulldozers and those will be working.

[00:11:59] Abhinandan: I think 

[00:11:59] Manisha: just the [00:12:00] fact that the guy tried everything to save himself. I mean, I think most people would freeze in that situation. The fact that he tried everything till the end. It's just very, very harrowing. 

[00:12:11] Jayashree: Right next headline. Uh, the Indian Rupe fell below the 91.5 mark against the US dollar on Wednesday.

[00:12:17] Jayashree: This is the first time that it's happened in Delhi. A court has acquitted former Congress and Sergeant Kumar in a case linked to alleged incitement of violence during the 1984 riots, but he'll remain in jail due to convictions and other cases in a Sam Prohibitory orders were imposed in a district banning the assembly of more than four people.

[00:12:35] Jayashree: This is after tensions flared between the Bordeaux and Alii communities following the killings of two people in mob violence. The Bangladesh Cricket Board is confirmed. It'll not send its team to India for the T 20 World Cup after being denied government clearance. But the Bangladesh Cricket Board chief has said the board will make a final appeal to the ICC.

[00:12:54] Jayashree: We discussed this in detail last week. 

[00:12:55] Abhinandan: Yeah. The good thing is that as is in the world, about three and a half countries play [00:13:00] cricket and the way BCCI is behaving, maybe that'll become one and a half and we will be the world champions of a sport that is played by three countries. I think very good. The fewer countries that plays better, as far as I'm concerned.

[00:13:14] Jayashree: And Heidi Irritating headline, former Chief Justice of India, DY Chand said Bail before conviction should be a right. While noting that courts must closely scrutinize cases involving national security. He made these comments at the JA Lit Fest when he was asked about the Supreme Court not giving Dale to Omar Khali.

[00:13:30] Abhinandan: Yeah. If only had made this comment while he was on the bench, 

[00:13:33] Jayashree: if only he could have done something about it. How, 

[00:13:36] Abhinandan: how strange. Yeah. Really, 

[00:13:38] Jayashree: a judge in Samal who earlier this month ordered a case against several cops. Over a 2024 shooting was amongst 14 judicial officers transferred by the Alba High Court.

[00:13:49] Manisha: Now, Abdi has done this story. In fact, he was one of the first to report on this order that came where the, uh, judge ordered an a fire against the cop for shooting at a person. [00:14:00] And, uh, when he called the cop, he said, nay, we are not gonna listen to this. We are, we won't follow this order. And our story says this, but the judge has been transferred, the cop is saying, and he said many other things which we didn't print because I, we decided we only get contempt of court, but this is the HAL that we will not follow this order.

[00:14:22] music: Wow. 

[00:14:23] Jayashree: Meanwhile, that Mumbai court, uh, the students from TIS who organ, who attended that cyber bar went, the Mumbai coach said, uh, give them a stern warning. I'll tell your father's, your career is ruined, so love it. And last headline. Donald Trump has said the US will not use force to take control of Greenland, but reiterate his demand that Washington be given ownership of it.

[00:14:46] Jayashree: He also signed a charter establishing his new Board of Peace at the World Economic Forum. 

[00:14:51] Abhinandan: This guy is insane. Did you hear his 

[00:14:53] Manisha: speech? I heard, I actually heard I long, no 

[00:14:57] Abhinandan: Iceland. 

[00:14:58] Manisha: It's hard to follow and [00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Jayashree: no one Manisha do the do the accent for us. It's 

[00:15:02] Manisha: really just a beautiful piece of, no, he's really, and he was also boring.

[00:15:07] Manisha: Now I think he's getting a bit boring also because again and again he goes back into the elections were rigged. Everyone knows and that's not cool. And if you give it, I'll be happy. If you give me, uh, Greenland, we'll be happy. And if you don't, I'll remember 

[00:15:23] Jayashree: Namar did that interview with the fake Trump.

[00:15:25] Jayashree: No, 

[00:15:25] Abhinandan: it was too funny. Yeah, dude, it 

[00:15:27] Jayashree: was 

[00:15:27] Abhinandan: so strange. First of all, you know, NACA and this Raf Savan and Gulu and Sheik actually, or whatever these guys are, they shouldn't try to be. Now we do humor. You should do normal. It's humorous enough. When you try to do humor, then it's. Uh, but what I loved is the late night take of, uh, all these, uh, late night shows in the US on Trump getting the award from the Venezuelan leader, opposition, the Nobel piece.

[00:15:57] Abhinandan: Why she gave Nobel to the, [00:16:00] some of the comments that they've made us so far for themselves. You'd like to tell, I like to tell the president, you know, if, uh, what if, um, no, if Jay-Z gave me the ring, Beyonce gave him, doesn't make Beyonce my wife, although I should appreciate it. But you know, or would it, or that someone says, and the Trump has got a, a condition guaranteed once used Nobel Prize.

[00:16:27] Abhinandan: You know, they, they've just roasted him on that. Yeah. And the thing is that each time Europe trashes Trump how the audience and the late night cheers your on. Whereas here, that would be considered a sedition. 

[00:16:42] Jayashree: Yeah. 

[00:16:42] Manisha: Yeah. 

[00:16:43] Abhinandan: Straightaway. 

[00:16:43] Manisha: Now, Kumar, will she ever call anyone Who in person, um, mimics Modi? Shamar is such a fantastic mimic use.

[00:16:49] Manisha: Mm. Would she ever, I asked 

[00:16:51] Jayashree: this fake Trump, like, what do you think of Mr. Modi? And he is like, Modi's great. And you are just like, what are, oh my God. 

[00:16:57] Manisha: And the guy was actually trying to make fun of Trump. Like [00:17:00] the guy who, because I had the fortune of watching the whole thing, but he was actually good. He was mimicking him to make fun of Trump by would you ever do this?

[00:17:07] Manisha: Like at least appreciate that all said and done. Yeah. That he can do it. 

[00:17:10] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:17:10] Manisha: You would never, 

[00:17:12] Abhinandan: right. So Goen, uh, let us get to you to kind of deconstruct or explain what is happening as far as the economic front is concerned to begin with. Davos is underway. We've seen, uh, Vishnu skydiving? Or was he skiing?

[00:17:25] Abhinandan: I couldn't tell. 

[00:17:26] Manisha: He was paragliding. 

[00:17:27] Abhinandan: Paragliding, ah, 

[00:17:29] Manisha: was skiing. 

[00:17:30] Abhinandan: Raul was skiing. Uh, anyone else indul in sporting activities? 

[00:17:34] Manisha: Snow fighting 

[00:17:35] Abhinandan: because they're such. Amazing sports persons. Uh, I, I, I've seen the athleticism and display areas, uh, but we have a very senior, in fact, one of the most senior, this is when I was still young, and CNBC was a new thing.

[00:17:51] Abhinandan: Govin was a familiar phase. So Govin, of all the times you've been to Davos, harmony, VIPs, have you interviewed there? 

[00:17:58] Govind Ethiraj: So, I mean, you'll have to [00:18:00] allow me to back up a little bit. I've never been to Davos and all my Are you serious? 

[00:18:04] Abhinandan: Are you 

[00:18:05] Govind Ethiraj: the, and all my viewing observation and commentary is, uh, from distance shows, which is right here either in Mumbai or wherever it is.

[00:18:12] Abhinandan: So one six. Are you the only like senior editorial level business journalist who's never been to diverse? I mean, is there a for that? 

[00:18:22] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, I, I, I'd be happy to accept one, but no, I, I, I think others have not been either, I think, I think most of the people who do go out from television, I, I I, I, I mean from my sort of anecdotal observ.

[00:18:34] Govind Ethiraj: I would think that there are many print business journalists who have not gone, or it's likely that they've not gone right, because the most visible are the TV guys because they land up there. They do interviews of people usually from here. And beam it back. So that's visible and which is why we notice it.

[00:18:50] Govind Ethiraj: But I, I think there would be print, uh, older print business journalists who have not gone either. 

[00:18:54] Abhinandan: Okay. Maybe that's why you are not exposed to the best ideas because as I heard Vishnu sch say from [00:19:00] diverse that this is where the best ideas are discussed and they emerge Clearly, Vishnu has not been in a room where ideas are discussed time much if that is the best ideas that he has heard in his lifetime of idea hearing.

[00:19:12] Abhinandan: Uh, but we hear one, there is a possibility of a trade deal between Europe and India. Uh, I'll again get her name wrong, which Manisha helped me with. She's going to be the Republic Day Chief Wander. Ursula. 

[00:19:25] Manisha: Ursula 

[00:19:25] Abhinandan: Wander. Okay. Uh, 

[00:19:28] Manisha: Ursula Ursula. 

[00:19:29] Abhinandan: Yes. Ursula Ursula Wonderland, uh, is gonna be a chief guest for the Republic Day.

[00:19:34] Abhinandan: She has said that we are on the verge of a trade deal. There are trade discuss. Mother of all deals, mother of all deals, right? That's how I discussed it. Their deals, you know, the Canadian premier has said that they need to figure out a new structure 

[00:19:46] Manisha: and Trump said, just gimme that piece of ice problem, 

[00:19:50] Abhinandan: which gone back on, which has again made the markets a little more stable.

[00:19:52] Abhinandan: We just 

[00:19:53] Manisha: need that beautiful piece of 

[00:19:54] Abhinandan: ice. Realistically, uh, I know you talk data, go in and listen to your podcast regularly, [00:20:00] religiously, and it is extremely accurate and very sensible. I must say, data wise, no one can deny that America is too big to ignore. In fact, even the Canadian premier said that even as he said that we need to figure out a new order.

[00:20:17] Abhinandan: How realistic are these trade deals and insulating the rest of the world from Trump's, you know, volatility? And what would the nature of those be? I mean, would they be, we, would we suddenly get, you know, duty free scotch, whiskey or cheese that is as cheap as Amul cheese coming from Europe and, uh, Holland, or this is at another level of energy, et cetera.

[00:20:41] Abhinandan: All you 

[00:20:41] Manisha: think of is wine and cheese. 

[00:20:42] Abhinandan: Classic liberal. True liberal. I'm a Latin, I just LA 

[00:20:45] Manisha: elite. 

[00:20:46] Govind Ethiraj: So the UI mean the US is, uh, is large and when you think of us and even eu, you have to think both goods and services. We usually think of goods, which is, uh, maybe cheese or wine or, uh, uh, spirits importing [00:21:00] from U UK with whom we do have a free trade agreement with.

[00:21:03] Govind Ethiraj: So will we get scotch at lower prices? We should, but it's not gonna happen so soon because these agreements are usually, uh, you know, uh. Uh, I mean, I mean, usually they play out over years. 

[00:21:15] music: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:15] Govind Ethiraj: So maybe the first year that you will actually get, let's say, a bottle of Johnny Walker at lower prices will be five years from now.

[00:21:22] Govind Ethiraj: I'm, I'm, I'm not saying it specifically because I haven't, I haven't checked, but it's definitely not happening right now, though. The agreement has been signed with the uk. Uh, in the case of the u it would be similar. I mean, obviously, uh, you would want to export wine into India. I mean, we pay crazy prices of wine.

[00:21:38] Govind Ethiraj: Yeah. If you buy a bottle of wine in any part of the Western world, uh, you would pay much less than what you would pay in any store in Delhi, uh, Mumbai. And of course within India there are, the rates differ again because there's, uh, state taxes. So what it boils down to is really, um, maybe engineering goods, uh, maybe, [00:22:00] um.

[00:22:01] Govind Ethiraj: Some capital goods and so on, on cars, uh, which could come. But here's where it gets a little complex. So firstly, let's look at what they call the red lines. So India will not allow import of, uh, 

[00:22:13] Abhinandan: agri 

[00:22:13] Govind Ethiraj: goods, agri goods, dairy. 

[00:22:16] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:16] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, you know, so India is being consistently clear on that, and there is some merit in that.

[00:22:21] Govind Ethiraj: I feel that, you know, we should not be, uh, I mean, you can't do something which immediately jeopardizes your farming lobby. And most governments would react the same way. I don't think it's about this government or the previous one or the one before that. So, so the red lines for India are clearly, uh, are dairy and agri products?

[00:22:36] Govind Ethiraj: No. Whether just that's justified or not is a different issue because you mentioned cheese again, I mean, all kinds of cheese are clearly not made here. I mean, there's high end cheese, which would come from Switzerland, which cannot be technically made here. Or even if someone is making it very artisanal and rare, and you know, the price points are very different.

[00:22:53] Govind Ethiraj: So if you take away agriculture and cheese now, what's left? Uh, and if you look around you, so that's really leaves things like, uh, [00:23:00] automotive, uh, amongst the visible ones and everything in the capital expenditure space, which is engineering goods and so on. Auto is again a very tricky one, you know? So, and you know, I remember many years ago, uh, the Ford CEO saying the global Ford CEO in India defending India's Le India's reg regulations, which said that we will not allow import or duty free or no, forget duty free imports of cars into India, right?

[00:23:30] Govind Ethiraj: You, so India doesn't allow, you know, you just can't import a car. 

[00:23:33] music: Hmm. 

[00:23:33] Govind Ethiraj: Forget the fact that there's a hundred percent duty on it, but you just can't, uh, you know, suppose you're a dealer, you can't say I want to import, right? Uh, a hundred Teslas, you can't do it. I mean, there will be so many other, uh, you have to homologate and all of that stuff.

[00:23:45] Govind Ethiraj: So I remember the, so because India's policy has been to ensure that foreign auto companies come and set up in India. Invest in Indian manufacturing, uh, capacity produce, uh, for the domestic [00:24:00] market, and therefore participate in the growth. And so, so suddenly you say no. Okay. Uh, I'm gonna now start allowing, uh, you know, uh, reduced import duty, uh, imports at reduce duties or easier imports.

[00:24:13] Govind Ethiraj: That obviously jeopardizes all the investments that have been made here. So it is not in the interest of even companies who've invested already here to allow such duty free imports or lower or reduced duty imports. So therefore, tomorrow, if, let's say we are talking about a free trade agreement, and BMW Mercedes, uh, Audi, I'm just talking about the German brands.

[00:24:34] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:34] Govind Ethiraj: Say that. Okay. Uh, now that you've, uh, reduced, uh, uh, duties, now let me export from China or export from the uk. I mean, export from Europe, I, I don't see that working out. So because they've already invested in domestic capacity, uh, in India, so. What Mercedes might say, and which is already doing, is say, okay, I'm going to, and, and I'm being specific here, so I've got a high-end wagon, uh, G wagon, [00:25:00] which costs, let's say two crow plus or whatever it does, uh, that I'm going to export to India.

[00:25:05] Govind Ethiraj: But everything else I'm really going to make in India because I've invested thousands of crows in a plant in Puna and or near Puna. And similarly that'll apply to all the other manufacturers. So in real, in the real world, uh, a free trade agreement, uh, with you, 

[00:25:21] Abhinandan: it's gonna be narrow 

[00:25:22] Govind Ethiraj: somewhere. I, that's my sense.

[00:25:24] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, I, I know I'm taking a little time to this thing 'cause I'm also trying to think about what could be the other areas where we could see tangible imports of something. And remember this is also about exports. I mean, they, yeah. Their, uh, Europe farming, uh, farm products are also quite tightly regulated.

[00:25:39] Govind Ethiraj: Sure. It's not like you can start exporting from India to there. So they suppose we say, okay, we are, we are, don't do all this, but we're not gonna allow dairy. We're not gonna allow agri products. And they, then they say the same thing. They say, okay, fine. Then we also will not allow you to, you're not coming.

[00:25:51] Govind Ethiraj: We, we too have to protect our farmers. So, yeah. So I think, let's see. The, I mean, this is something that we'll have to wait to see what the final agreement is, because I think [00:26:00] politicians on both sides are announcing things because they also wanna show that life can move on without Trump or beyond Trump.

[00:26:06] Govind Ethiraj: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:06] Abhinandan: So, 

[00:26:07] Govind Ethiraj: so it'd be good to see. 

[00:26:08] Abhinandan: So, one more quick question before I open this out to Manisha and Gehi as well, that, uh, while it is gonna be relatively narrow, uh, what I heard on, again, I think it was on your podcast only a week or so ago on, uh, how the trade, uh, tariffs did not impact China at all. You know, Trump's.

[00:26:32] Abhinandan: Bluster did not impact China because they just found other markets to dump their products on, whether it was plastic, whether it was, you know, other low skill little ornaments. Christmas decorations apparently are made in China. A lot of them now. When we had studied economics, there was all sorts of anti-dumping laws, anti-dumping duties.

[00:26:55] Abhinandan: How is it that China find it so easy to find markets everywhere else [00:27:00] when the biggest market in the world shuts them down through tariffs and doesn't impact them at all, whereas India can't do that? Is it that. They have economic might so they bully people into buying their stuff, or is it ideological that, you know, countries that want to suck up to China will buy their stuff whether they need it or not.

[00:27:21] Abhinandan: How, how do they insulate themselves? And we can't, 

[00:27:24] Govind Ethiraj: no, I, I would say that, uh, Indian companies are also fairly adept at doing the same thing as they have been doing in the last six months. I mean, if you, if you remember the 50% tariffs that kicked in in August, which affected particularly industries like Gen Z, uh, seafood exports, uh, including shrimp and, uh, uh, uh, some part of, uh, uh, automotive components and of course garments and apparel.

[00:27:48] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, these are the three or four industries which have been amongst the worst hit. Uh, and I would, and amongst the most labor intensive are clearly, uh, garments and apparel, gems and jewelry, seafood exports. Then a lot of smaller ones. So [00:28:00] India has been exporting, if the numbers seem to show that India is, uh, people who are exporting these products are finding other markets or, or are finding wire routes, you know, so there are Indian companies who are, for example, uh, using some of their capacities in Ethiopia or the Middle East, or, or even in Bangladesh.

[00:28:17] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, there are Indian government companies which have capacity in Bangladesh. So Bangladesh and Ethiopia, all these countries have much lower tariffs with, uh, the us. So you can't obviously read out overnight. But, uh, I would say that in our, in our own, uh, limited size Indian, uh, businesses have also been doing roughly what China has been doing, which is to actively reroute, obviously to take a hit on some of the, uh, costs.

[00:28:43] Govind Ethiraj: So, I mean, if you boil it down to one unit, you say, okay, it costs me, let's say $1 to produce, uh, one simple t-shirt. And it's, uh, I, I can, uh, I sell it to, uh, and I sell it to the us uh, at $3, you know, in, in good times to [00:29:00] Walmart in the US, or $4 to Walmart or Target, or wherever it is. Now, if there is a 50% tariff, that $1 becomes $1 50 cents when it lands, uh, in the, in the us.

[00:29:10] Govind Ethiraj: So there are two things which have happened, right? One is the, has depreciated quite sharply as we know. It has gone from, let's say, uh, 81, 82 to about 91 now. Hmm. That obviously helps you. So even without doing anything, you're at a, you are more competitively placed today than you were about maybe Sure, six months ago.

[00:29:29] Govind Ethiraj: The, the second is you will take a hit, you say, fine, uh, uh, you were paying me $4 earlier, uh, and my landed price is $1 50. Uh, so I, I will take a profit hit and I will maybe instead of, uh, you know, $1 I will try and make do with 50 cents. So people are just, because I have to keep my factories running. You know, so, uh, I think so between saying that I will, I'm willing to take a hit on, uh, how much I am, uh, uh, I'm gonna sell the pro, uh, sell the product [00:30:00] for versus some benefit that I've got in depreciation.

[00:30:02] Govind Ethiraj: There has been a little bit of a buffer. It's a little bit, and, and then finally see, but the thing I think which has been happening as I talked to many of these guys is that they're all hoping for a deal. So you're saying, okay, I gonna take a case 

[00:30:14] Abhinandan: Exactly. Eventually that, that Trump will 

[00:30:17] Govind Ethiraj: come up with some compromise.

[00:30:18] Govind Ethiraj: Yeah. That's happening literally. So we are in January, uh, entering the fourth week and literally till December. That has really been the anticipation. So I'm saying that, okay, even if I'm not able to sell, uh, this $1, uh, thing at the $4 price that I usually do, but I can take a hit right now because I know December will have a deal of 15% 

[00:30:37] Abhinandan: Hmm.

[00:30:38] Govind Ethiraj: As opposed to 50%. So instead of, you know, the landed price being $1 50, it'll be $1 15. So at that price I can manage 

[00:30:45] Abhinandan: Hmm. 

[00:30:45] Govind Ethiraj: But that has not happened. As you know, the deal has been, uh, moving. It's been a moving target, and December, first week it was supposed to happen. Second week, third week, four weeks. Then it's clearly gone.

[00:30:56] Govind Ethiraj: So now I don't know when it's gonna happen and whether it'll happen by Jan, [00:31:00] Feb, March. We don't know. Lot of industry has been also hoping and praying, 

[00:31:03] Abhinandan: but clearly the share price does not reflect any such success. COVID, 

[00:31:06] Jayashree: just to go back to China though, but is it also just that China has more cards to play, like, you know, like rare earth minerals and capacity to process them and so on?

[00:31:15] Jayashree: So is it, that's why they have the upper hand and all these sort of things? 

[00:31:18] Govind Ethiraj: No. That they have an upper hand is no doubt. I mean, there is no, all I'm saying is given where we are in our relative size and uh, shape, we have some ability to bargain. And some leeway. And that's what entrepreneurs and businesses have been doing in the last few months is all I'm saying.

[00:31:33] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, China is a giant, I mean, there is no comparison, uh, on many accounts. I think 

[00:31:37] Abhinandan: there, 

[00:31:37] Govind Ethiraj: there are, the 

[00:31:38] Abhinandan: 19, we are not, I think there is, there are a $19 trillion economy and we, we are still going above. Yeah. But, uh, Manisha, two questions to you. One is, when are you sending a reporter to Davos or will you go yourself?

[00:31:51] Abhinandan: And if you go there, Monisha will go herself. Project snowball, be you producer and a junior correspondent. Just set up a camp, make snowballs like Calvin Hobbs and [00:32:00] just pelt everybody. I think it'll be so much fun. I think that should be a show if you think you should do that. We set up a se a project where we can send a producer, Manian a correspondent, to set up a snow fort and just pelt everybody with snowballs 

[00:32:12] Manisha: like, uh, amru fave and, uh, 

[00:32:13] Abhinandan: no, that was very gentle.

[00:32:14] Abhinandan: Yours would be like, like more efficient snowballs. Those are not in snowball. And the second is I used surprised that prominent economists like, um. And Ram, they've got it wrong. When they said that in Modi comes the dollar and the rupe would be one is to one 

[00:32:30] Manisha: first on Davos. I have to admit that, uh, this has been the most interesting Davos of all the other ones because usually for me it's always just been Ra asking Am is how is she walking on ice?

[00:32:43] Manisha: Mm. Why is she not slipping? And she's saying, I practice. You can also practice. 

[00:32:47] music: Mm. 

[00:32:47] Manisha: And they're skiing every, it's like an annual ski trip. But this time actually I heard two speeches, the Canadian Prime Minister and Trump, and it was quite something. 

[00:32:57] music: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:58] Manisha: But, um, [00:33:00] the thing that made a lot of news in India, and I'm really glad that this public conversation about it was VUS going all the way there.

[00:33:06] Manisha: Signing boasting about signing MOUs worth 14 cro. And the top, uh, the highest MOU was, uh, signed with a Mumbai and Pune based company. Hmm. To cro, uh, Alta Capital and Shill Realty. Based in Pune and Mumbai respectively. So goes all the way signs MOUs. Um, and there's been a lot of conversation about like, what are you a getting out?

[00:33:32] Manisha: What an MOU is just 

[00:33:34] music: right, 

[00:33:34] Manisha: nothing. It's just a paper promise. 

[00:33:36] music: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:36] Manisha: You've gone all the way to sign these deals with Indian companies, which you could have done very much. I mean, you could have just had this here, an investor summit here and gotten this done. And, uh, the question is that, and I think there's this whole culture of which starts right from the Prime Minister where he's inaugurating w de Baratz, Davo we know is not an investment summit.

[00:33:58] Manisha: It is an economic forum where you [00:34:00] can network. Sure. You meet the who's who you, what is the cliche? The doors open deals aren't stuck here, but doors open here. 

[00:34:06] music: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:07] Manisha: But Ner is the person to do it. I mean, we also, I'm surely India and his government would have negotiators, uh, professionals. Even if you wanna network, say you wanna present yourself as a country that wants to attract investment, why do these all and not just Fadnavis, uh, even our Karnataka, um, uh, Kumar was there, was there, all these guys have gone there for what?

[00:34:31] Manisha: I don't know. 

[00:34:32] Abhinandan: In fact, I would just like to urge, uh, those of you listening and if any of your chief ministers have gone, do file an RTI and then share it with us. Yeah. Let's do a community driven project on how much each state spent, uh, and at the center of our reporters will file RTI on their delegation going like today I saw full page ad by the Maddi Pradesh chief Minister.

[00:34:59] Abhinandan: Uh, and [00:35:00] as I am good with names, he's 

[00:35:01] Manisha: really, uh, 

[00:35:02] Abhinandan: he's taken out an ad because he preempted the, the kind of, uh, you know, pushback Mr. Vis was getting, uh, he preempted that a question, why the hell am I there? So lemme take out a full page ad that wall that I've achieved. So he took out a full page ad today, 

[00:35:17] Jayashree: but it's more one the other.

[00:35:18] Jayashree: No, I saw the ad. 

[00:35:19] Abhinandan: Out of all those achievements, it's a little bit like Trump's achievement, either Trump, that he waved that book of achievements. One of the achievements in that written, and this is a word that was used, we drew security to notorious crack head, uh, hunter Biden. That was one of his achievements that he would do security to Hunter Biden because he was getting State security.

[00:35:40] Abhinandan: Now, one of the achievements of, uh, what's his name, sorry. Uh, when the press Chief Minister, you just, Mohan Mohan was that he met the Manchester United chairperson. So I have no doubt the next professional football team that is going to be seen in the Champions League is going to come from a pr. I have no doubt because he has [00:36:00] met the Manchester United Chairman in Davos.

[00:36:03] Abhinandan: That is like the spectacular stupidity and the shamelessness, that stupidity. I can put this with Sari, with money that I have taken from the people put such a stupid achievement as an ad. And people read it and say, Wawa, it either tells you the public, it either tells you the public is spectacularly stupid, or it tells you that our leaders who put these ads are spectacularly stupid.

[00:36:30] Abhinandan: Or it tells you that they think that the public is spectacularly stupid. 

[00:36:33] Manisha: I think the public, uh, questioning around this has been pretty robust. The media should have actually done that. All these television news channels over there, and I think Ra Ka does ask this question. And then Faves gives this answer that actually these are Indian companies, but they attract FDAs also.

[00:36:47] Abhinandan: He said 61% of all foreign all these projects is FDI. 

[00:36:50] Jayashree: What? Nonsense. Okay, fine. They, when the faves is signing that MOU with, uh, that Mara company, whatever, which is run by A-B-J-P-M-L-A, Bombay's, [00:37:00] then he is also signing a deal to the Adani group. Fine. But also Ravens Ready is meeting with Chi gb. Literally that there's one that, that's that one Ana minister who's meeting with his son, who's also an industrialist, and they together are then taking a meeting with GreenCo, which is also based in hy.

[00:37:16] Jayashree: So I'm saying the level of stupidity is astonishing, and I think you. Well, like you said, there was, is a economic forum. I think it's a clown show. I think Indian politicians just want to be in the proximity of powerful people. This is like me going to Bombay and standing outside Han's house because I wanna be close to a celebrity in some sort of power.

[00:37:34] Jayashree: It's like influencers exhibiting in Kahan. It's just about that sort of reflected glory and I think that's what's happening here. And I think also media headlines are not calling it out the way they should. Yeah. We are celebrating that these six cartoon chief ministers and their entourages and union ministers.

[00:37:49] Jayashree: All gathering there to do what? Like to talk to each other and take some photographs and then come back home. And yes, this is your money that is paying for it. They're all are nice vigilant trips. They'll impress immediates. It's a win-win. [00:38:00] And these are the clowns and we are funding the circus. So I just think it is astonishing.

[00:38:04] Jayashree: So, 

[00:38:05] Manisha: and in fact this Davos, I was interested in it because it was a lot about politics. I mean, a lot of the conversation was about positioning ourselves '

[00:38:11] Abhinandan: cause of Trump. 

[00:38:11] Manisha: Yeah, yeah. What does the liberal order, so here's where you, I would've possibly liked to see a Shanker. Where do we stand in this flux?

[00:38:18] Manisha: Where, where, where is our politics? Whatever middle power you said Shanker 

[00:38:21] Jayashree: is fighting with that 

[00:38:22] Manisha: poll. What is a is doing in the middle of this conference where leaders essentially are signaling much bigger things than economy. Actually they're thinking world order. 

[00:38:33] Abhinandan: In fact, you know, reports that I've seen that's come out of, uh, diverse in other media, international media, including Al Jazeera and et cetera, is about.

[00:38:42] Abhinandan: Which European leader said, what, what did Trump say? How did the market react to what Trump said? How did the Europeans react to what Trump said? You know, what are the other nations thinking? It was a completely geopolitical realignment forum rather than any economic forum as of now. But, uh, go in this, your view of it as [00:39:00] bleak as, 

[00:39:03] Govind Ethiraj: no, I think, um, I mean, it, it, it is, and it isn't, you know, I, I wonder sometimes whether, I mean, all the discussion that we've had now, is it determined by the headlines of Indian media organizations and how they've been, uh, uh, let's say, uh, you know, uh.

[00:39:21] Govind Ethiraj: Positioning it. Yeah. I mean, in an over the top way. So here's what I mean. What, what, what is, I think Manisha, you've touched upon it. I, you know, it is a world economic forum. It is a geopolitical, I, I mean, con convening and mostly has been, it's not necessarily the place you go to announce MOUs. I mean, that's true.

[00:39:39] Govind Ethiraj: We've made it like that because maybe we have nothing else to do, or this is amongst the things we do. But having said that, I, I don't think I have a problem with, uh, our, uh, sub-national heads or our chief ministers going to Davos. I mean, I, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think, yeah, I think it is a good thing.

[00:39:55] Govind Ethiraj: The problem may that, because I mean, I want them to go and see what other people are saying. What is the, [00:40:00] because the global order and understanding the global order is also important for a subnational head, uh, in India. As long as he or she's doing it with the right objective and immersing themselves. I mean, I'd rather that they sit in many of those sessions, you know, remember, I mean, there are.

[00:40:14] Govind Ethiraj: Uh, hundreds of sessions. They talk about artificial intelligence and plastics, and electric vehicles and longevity and, uh, stable coins. You know, I would rather that, not rather, but I would want our, uh, represented elected representatives to go and immerse themselves in these issues and maybe come back with some ideas about what they can do.

[00:40:31] Govind Ethiraj: And they don't have to necessarily announce MOUs because I, to me, at least, that's not a, a measure of success. It's not AKA that, oh, uh, my chief minister went on taxpayers money to double, so he should come back, uh, with five MOUs. I, I mean, even if he came back with no MOUs, I think that's fine as long as you're signing MOUs and the rest of the year.

[00:40:49] Govind Ethiraj: Hmm. I mean, if you just look at, uh, and pash as one instance, I mean, they've gotten maybe 30, $35 billion of, uh, you know, investment in just three or four [00:41:00] months. In data centers. Now, whether that's a, that's the best thing to happen or not is a completely different discussion, but they've done it. And, uh, between Ana and Andra, they, or the fight has begun all over again after decades, you know, uh, in, in terms of attracting fresh investment, or, sorry, uh, between Andra, Ana, uh, uh, Karnataka, 

[00:41:18] Jayashree: Karnataka, 

[00:41:19] Govind Ethiraj: KA Nadu and so on.

[00:41:20] Govind Ethiraj: So there is a big battle going on right now. Not, I mean, it is being reported, but I mean, not being analyzed as much as I think so. I think Davos is a, is an opportunity to do a lot of things. It's an opportunity to network, it's an opportunity to gauge the temperature of what is happening in the world order right now.

[00:41:35] Govind Ethiraj: It's an opportunity to understand what Mark Carney's speech really means, uh, in terms of where we stand as India, as a middle order country. As Mark Carney said in his, uh, in his speech, it's about saying, okay, uh, did Trump get that pushback from the eu and therefore has he, uh, toned down his, uh, rhetoric on Greenland?

[00:41:53] Govind Ethiraj: Or was it something else? And what do we make of that? And I think those are very important issues. And Davos is the place all these people [00:42:00] are there. You, you know, uh, Elon Musk was there speaking with Larry Fink. I, I saw, I caught a little bit of it. It didn't, uh, really go anywhere for me, at least the parts that I saw.

[00:42:08] Govind Ethiraj: But it's important, I mean, what Elon Musk thinks and whether he is, if he's gonna start, uh, you know, being friends with, uh, Donald Trump again, uh, what does that mean? I mean, we were going Elon Musk like nobody's business until Sure. You know, uh, seven or eight months ago and he was the head of state that we should be talking to, you know, and 

[00:42:26] Abhinandan: but to your point, just attending these events, because when you're exposed to that, and I'm a big advocate of actually that kind of, and you know, we ourselves host the media rumble.

[00:42:36] Abhinandan: Many people can say, what is the point of that? Jambo, you've actually attended it. 

[00:42:39] Govind Ethiraj: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:42:40] Abhinandan: Uh, I have, yes, I have always, uh, you know, I go attend conferences and many of the conversations, the partnerships also that have come up for news laundry have happened at these places. Uh, many of the organizations we've partnered, in fact, this whole News Minute and news Laundry thing, it started off with me and Tania meeting in Pune.[00:43:00] 

[00:43:00] Abhinandan: At, uh, uh, the Symbiosis School of Media has an event every year where they invite people, and that's where I'd never met Danya before. And she was aghast at my foul language that, you know, being the head of a news organization, how do you speak like this? Uh, that too in college on a stage with children.

[00:43:17] Abhinandan: And I was like, why are you scolding me? Who are you? And, uh, so then, but then, you know, it emerged and now we are pretty much operating as one entity. So I think lots happens. I just think that when our, you know, leaders go, for example, a minister of education of some state will go to some European country to, but what is the outcome of that?

[00:43:39] Abhinandan: Yeah. And. You see, this is good for like today. I don't attend so many conferences because I believe at the age of 51, between 30 and 51, I have got enough experience in 20, 21 years to understand what best s are. I don't have to go expose myself to those ideas. I would rather GE Manisha go, right? 

[00:43:58] music: Yeah. 

[00:43:59] Abhinandan: The people who are [00:44:00] chief minister and KA ministers, I'm assuming, have reached that level of maturity and leadership that they don't have to learn from these places.

[00:44:07] Abhinandan: They should send them Minister of State. They should send some junior. He should learn. Now, that is, that is how osmosis of ideas at these events works. If my prime minister has to go learn from there, then dude, a country is messed. If he's still learning, you should be at the pinnacle where you say, you know what, son, you 30 5-year-old mp, I'll give you a chance.

[00:44:25] Abhinandan: You go learn something and come back. The problem is there is no interest in learning. Let's be clear. These guys. Don't have the self-awareness to say we are here to learn. I will not take names because, not because I don't want to, because I'll be sued 'cause I can't prove it. But you know the person, I know the person, this person has held the top spot at a top business channel in the country.

[00:44:49] Abhinandan: Several years ago this, there was a conference, a big one, like Davos types. Uh, this minister, cabinet minister had gone [00:45:00] in the morning at 10 or 11, there was a press conference scheduled. There were two starlets who were fairly popular in Bollywood at the time, who were also for some reasoning that economic business, political conference.

[00:45:13] Abhinandan: Uh, and at the press conference, of course this minister didn't land up. The press was waiting. There were of course a dozen, maybe Indian journalists and there were maybe two dozen international ones. And of course, no Indian journalists had the gut to say anything. You know, the international ones said out loud for everyone to hear.

[00:45:27] Abhinandan: I just came here. I was curious if he'd make it. 'cause I saw him at the party last night. Having good time, quite intoxicated with these two styles. And he said it out loud for everybody to hear. And my friend said that I was so ashamed being an Indian journalist, that we couldn't say that we knew there was no interest in actually getting anything done there.

[00:45:48] Abhinandan: And I think that is the case, which is why in principle, I agree with you. I think if I could afford to send all news laundry staff to the TED in California, I would. 'cause before [00:46:00] TED X became this thing where even people like Mia asked to come and speak, I was hooked to it from the early two thousands.

[00:46:06] Abhinandan: You know, when that sling Rosling used to make those hands, 

[00:46:09] Jayashree: hands, 

[00:46:10] Abhinandan: hands. I was about to say, Ryan lost Rosling. He's the superstar, right? Mexican. So I was like, wow. And that time, I think $6,000 was the price to attend the ted. I was like, if you could send 10 midlevel, you know, mid-age management people there, they'd come back brimming with ideas.

[00:46:27] Abhinandan: 'cause then you see. You are exposed to the kind of people who make it and you realize, am I like that person? 'cause I know a lot of people who are sitting in their homes thinking that they have leadership qualities till they go and meet a room full of leaders and like, oh my God, I would not last a week with these people in the same room.

[00:46:44] Abhinandan: It just pitches you against what you're up against. But our ministers need that. Then do you, then you don't. So 

[00:46:51] Govind Ethiraj: the, the only, uh, this thing, um, uh, maybe sort of, uh, counter to that is, uh, there are 65 heads of state, uh, [00:47:00] who are, and heads of government who come to Davos. So, I mean, Carney and Trump included, and of course almost all European nations Zelensky was there.

[00:47:08] Govind Ethiraj: So, I don't know. I mean, if you frame it as a learning exercise, yes, you're right. I mean, the people who should go for learning could be younger and so on. But I think in terms of, uh, being seen and, uh, networking, I would, again, I, I mean in, I would expect my, uh, leaders, whether it's a Prime Minister or whoever, that's a different question to be there.

[00:47:30] Govind Ethiraj: Uh, and actually I come back to the same point. I mean, rather than announcing MOUs, uh, and sitting, uh, with, uh, media, which is mostly Indian media, which you could very well do right here. Mm-hmm. Uh, are you, uh, are you meeting, uh, your counterparts? I mean, uh, whether it's in, I mean Ukraine or in from Asia or Europe or North America?

[00:47:50] Govind Ethiraj: And if so, what is it lead leading to? I, I mean, I, I'm not saying you have to immediately answer to all of that, but I would really hope, because I think this is a very, very difficult time that we [00:48:00] are in. And we are all trying to figure out, uh, you know, where do we stand in this new, uh, you know, uh, new set of equations and whether we have any standing at all.

[00:48:09] Govind Ethiraj: As, as a, you know, we were aspiring, we are still aspiring to be a global par, but clearly events of the last year have sort of knocked us around, uh, to put it very mildly. So where do we stand today and where could we stand somewhere? Uh, so all of that, this is clearly an opportunity. Sure. There are other, uh, fora, there is bricks, there is G seven, there's G 20, uh, you know, uh, not G seven.

[00:48:30] Govind Ethiraj: We are obviously not a member of G seven. We could be invited, but there's G 20. But all of that is, doesn't have the same degree of informality and the ability to go and, uh, speak and meet and not be noticed and, you know, chased and hounded like you might be elsewhere. 

[00:48:44] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:48:45] Govind Ethiraj: So I think to come back to my chief minister, I mean, would I, would I, do I have a problem that the chief minister is going to have?

[00:48:55] Govind Ethiraj: I don't, uh. Do I have a problem that, uh, he seems to [00:49:00] be announcing, uh, MOUs with companies that are really Indian origin, whether they have foreign investment or not. I do, because I see this as a, as a, as, uh, an intrusion on time, which could have been spent somewhere else. I mean, could he have been attending a session?

[00:49:13] Govind Ethiraj: Could he have been, you know, going up to, uh, you know, uh, let's say the head of state of a European country and spending that time instead with him or her? Yes. Uh, could he be trying to figure out in this new world does, uh, the role, I mean the, a chief minister like me, uh, a sub national head of a country like India, have any role to play?

[00:49:33] Govind Ethiraj: I think that's a useful thing. Now, they may not do nothing of, or none of this. Instead, have a good time and come back, as you said. But I would hope that that's not the case. And I would hope that amongst the 10 that have gone, uh, maybe one or two, uh, used it to really do something productive, I would hope.

[00:49:49] Jayashree: Right? Yes. 

[00:49:50] Govind Ethiraj: I would 

[00:49:50] Jayashree: say I, I feel like I'm just too naturally Nic suspicious of Yeah, maybe, yeah. Maybe too cynical about it. Also, because I keep thinking of how much money we spend, uh, after [00:50:00] Operation Zuro after, uh, the attack when they send delegations across to Harmony, was it 25, 30 countries Indian delegations came and like we spend so much money on it and it became this sort of huge PR exercise that we were undertaking.

[00:50:12] Jayashree: And yes. Okay. Sometimes it's very difficult to quantify an intangible result of those sort of things, but yeah, so I just feel like this is more of. We want to be seen at this event. Yeah. And it doesn't actually matter what we are doing there. So, 

[00:50:26] Manisha: and this is a problem of Indian politics. It's really now very entrenched.

[00:50:30] Manisha: I agree with, uh, Govin for sure. Like, I would love for the de ECM to go to China. Just go there. Yeah. And learn what they did and come back and fix the air. But I know it's gonna just be my photos, my pictures. And this is, like I said, it is right from the top. It's because the prime Minister has to inaugurate every train station, every little thing.

[00:50:48] Manisha: He's inaugurating, push, sing the hammi as chief minister, any little thing is made as a board inaugurated by, made by push. Sing the hammi. My Gaan house. Previously the garden right in [00:51:00] front had lampposts. Every lamppost had Emily so written on it because he's 

[00:51:05] Abhinandan: benches have the 

[00:51:05] Manisha: same thing every, everyone, not even one.

[00:51:07] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:08] Manisha: So it's just every cm, every politician afflicted with this. Let me just. Tell the world that I'm something 

[00:51:13] Abhinandan: you post an achievement. So 

[00:51:16] Jayashree: just one last thing I want to say though about divorce, which I thought was interesting out of all the coverage of it, is that I did not, I mean, I knew Netanyahu was not there, but the interesting thing as to why he wasn't there is because Switzerland's party to the International criminal court, which has issued the warrant for a arrest.

[00:51:29] Jayashree: So he could 

[00:51:30] Abhinandan: not, she could have, I thought that was, that was interesting. But Manisha, you've attended some of these, these conferences was not, that was, I'm just talking in general before we say goodbye to Govin. With last remarks you've attended Yeah. Several conferences in India overseas. Yeah. Uh, what do you think is the cost benefit of such conferences?

[00:51:50] Abhinandan: I mean, luckily the ones we've been invited to are paid for by the people who invite us. 

[00:51:54] music: Yeah. 

[00:51:55] Abhinandan: But if one had to spend one's own money, what is the cost of [00:52:00] it? And what do you think are any positive outcomes that would make it worth the spend? 

[00:52:05] Manisha: So one thing is, which is great, is that you really pause and think about what you're doing about best practices.

[00:52:11] Manisha: I mean. Especially in journalism, you're in such a rush on a day-to-day basis that you really don't stop and think about newsroom practices, different ways of doing stories or just general how institutions function. So in these conferences, what I've always found very useful is that you meet different people doing different things in their newsrooms, and you get a lot of ideas and you learn.

[00:52:30] Manisha: You also realize, especially in journalism conferences, how all our struggles are so similar. I'm always amazed that everyone is talking about ads are drying up. What do we do? We have to think of ways of subscribing. How do we engage our readership? What do, so the struggles are so similar, even, even in developing worlds developed worlds, the most richest of countries, the most porous of countries, the struggles with authoritarians, trying to clamp down on journalists, the different ways in which right-wing trolls use, uh, you know, like Maria [00:53:00] Esa was here for our first media rumble.

[00:53:02] Manisha: What she. Said about trolling. So similar to what journalists have felt here. So there's a sense of solidarity, there's a sense of also that okay, we can all maybe come together and come with solutions, and you feel 

[00:53:12] Abhinandan: stronger. 

[00:53:12] Manisha: You feel stronger. And also solutions. 

[00:53:14] Abhinandan: Sure. 

[00:53:15] Manisha: So I think that's always very good. Uh, but yeah, paying for them yourself, I don't know.

[00:53:21] Abhinandan: So I know Govin, you have to leave, uh, before we say goodbye. Any closing thoughts and recommendation that would, um, maybe enrich the lives of our listeners? 

[00:53:29] Govind Ethiraj: Uh, no recommendations right now. Uh, but I mean, I wish I thought of it, but, you know, I was, I was looking at the agenda for Davos a couple of days ago, uh, when it started, because sometimes I do, uh, follow some of the con uh, some of the conversations.

[00:53:43] Govind Ethiraj: And, you know, it has been a problem for all these years that Indian media, which I think is one of the problems that you are willy nilly highlighting, is really not covering what's going on there and or not, not effectively enough for people to become enriched and, uh, you know, and, and [00:54:00] more knowledgeable.

[00:54:00] Govind Ethiraj: So. Some of the themes that Davos has highlighted, you know, how can we, uh, cooperate in a more contested world? I mean, that's one of the themes of Davos. Uh, how can we better invest in people? How can we unlock new sources of growth? How can we deploy innovation at scale and responsibly? These are the primary, uh, uh, Davos themes, uh, for 2026, all in what they call a spirit of dialogue.

[00:54:23] Govind Ethiraj: I mean, these are questions I'd like to hear answers to. I'd like to hear voices, uh, which, you know, uh, spend, uh, time and immer, uh, immersive thoughts, uh, and, and discussions or debates. And of course, thanks to, uh, the, the internet and everything. We can now do all of that by just going to wf.org and, and listening to them.

[00:54:42] Govind Ethiraj: But sometimes you want to hear, uh, you know, recording. No, 

[00:54:45] Abhinandan: actually no. I mean, the feel of physically being there, it's, I've attended some these, it's a completely different thing. Yeah. 

[00:54:50] Govind Ethiraj: Yeah. And, and if it's not there, I mean, can I, can I hear some good, uh, you know, synthesized reporting on some of these themes by, through interviews with people who I, who I [00:55:00] don't otherwise hear?

[00:55:01] Govind Ethiraj: Because many people do go there. Uh, you know, I mean, you mentioned hands rosling in some context, but as you know, you know, he's the kind of person who would be there. 

[00:55:09] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:55:09] Govind Ethiraj: You know, how do I talk to and say, sit down with that person for 15 minutes and say, okay, I'm from India, I'm a journalist, and I'd like to hear about the work that you're doing around data, and how are you using data to synthesize policy, you know, and if they talk, of course, they all know India, so they will talk to you about things.

[00:55:23] Govind Ethiraj: So those are things that I would really hope and expect from a diverse, like, uh, convening. From a media point of view. Mm. I know I may end up there one day as, uh, Manisha might, or you might, and we might do the same thing, which is to, you know, go and interview our guys and 

[00:55:38] Abhinandan: Oh, I thought we'd throw snowballs at others.

[00:55:41] Jayashree: Yeah. I thought you'll say scheme. 

[00:55:42] Abhinandan: Yeah, dude, come on. Go. And we gotta go have fun. Yeah, I kind division too. We let, we let the youngsters run into is we'll just make snow walls and throw it and we'll be grumpy old men. I think that's the plan. That's my plan at least, maybe, but I'll give the, let 

[00:55:55] Jayashree: scan the QR code on your screen 

[00:55:57] Abhinandan: now.

[00:55:59] Abhinandan: I'll give the recommendation [00:56:00] on Go's behalf the core report. It is a podcast that I listen to every morning. It'll not be available this Monday or Tuesday on account of, uh, Republic Day, but you can catch, catch it Tuesday. It will be Tuesday. Tuesday. It'll be Tuesday, but Wednesday onward Tuesday on. As you can catch it.

[00:56:14] Abhinandan: You get sensible voices like Govin, and sometimes you also get popular voices, which may not be sensible, but we all gotta do what you gotta do. But thanks Govin. The link is in the show notes of his podcast. Do check it out. Uh, have a good day. Have a good weekend, and a happy Republic Day. 

[00:56:32] Govind Ethiraj: Uh, happy Republic le to you too.

[00:56:34] Govind Ethiraj: Thank you Manisha Gehi and, uh, AAN for having me on your show. It's always a pleasure. I've truly enjoyed this and I look forward and I hope you'll gimme an opportunity once again. 

[00:56:43] Abhinandan: Yes, V shall yes. Thank you. Thanks 

[00:56:45] Manisha: man. Thank you. 

[00:56:46] Govind Ethiraj: Bye. 

[00:56:46] Manisha: On das. Just wanna add one thing I was very happy that Gita Gup said about permission.

[00:56:51] Manisha: Yes. That was the best takeaway. That was good. She gave a nice, 

[00:56:54] Abhinandan: that's one thing when the whole world is listening to you, then you can say stuff saying up. But I wanted to ask, you know, a [00:57:00] question to each, uh, Manisha and Jesse, if you know. Newsroom were to send you to a conference. Mm-hmm. What would you expect to get out of there?

[00:57:12] Abhinandan: What kind of conference would you actually want to attend and, and what do you think would be a positive outcome? 

[00:57:17] Jayashree: I like that you asked me only because I attended my first conference only two months ago, which was Oh, right. I went to sla, Vita and Thailand, and I've never gone for a conference before. Um, as in I've attended conferences, but like, I think it was mostly through college and stuff like that.

[00:57:29] Jayashree: Never as a real working professional, especially not as a journalist. And 

[00:57:33] Abhinandan: this is all media professionals from across the world, from over 

[00:57:35] Jayashree: 20 countries. Yeah. Predominantly south, Southeast Asia, but also a few, um, from America, from Australia and New Zealand and so on. And I think I didn't really know what to expect also because I've never gone for something like it before, but it just blew my mind.

[00:57:46] Jayashree: And I know that this is a smaller conference. It's not maybe one of the most, um, rigorous in terms of. How they plan sessions and panels and so on. So it's a little more informal, little more, uh, [00:58:00] chill networking. And even then, like it just blew my mind to have the opportunity to sit randomly at a table with like 10 people that I would never sort of come across in my day-to-day life at all.

[00:58:10] Jayashree: I would never have interactions with them online because our paths would not have crossed if we hadn't all turned up to this venue in Chiang Mai on this random October. You know? So I just, again, like what Manisha said is that the stories were all so disparate in that were coming from very different contexts and very different countries and different politics and backgrounds and whatever.

[00:58:33] Jayashree: But also it was just so similar and I found that very reassuring. I think especially if you've been a journalist for long enough, you tend to, I'm a very cynical person. I know it. I'm a very pessimistic person. I say that often, but I thought I didn't have a lot of capacity to get very inspired very quickly, but it happened to me there.

[00:58:51] Jayashree: Do you think 

[00:58:51] Abhinandan: it 

[00:58:51] Jayashree: made you, it's almost, 

[00:58:52] Abhinandan: it made you more ambitious. 

[00:58:54] Jayashree: It makes you more ambitious. It makes you think of things in new ways. It also makes you look at your own sort of [00:59:00] day-to-day dull routine with fresh perspective. And these are words that I don't use, I don't use lightly. Like I am not the type of person who gets carried away in this way.

[00:59:09] Jayashree: But it is, I think it's important also. I mean, you don't realize how much you work with the same sort of people. Like see, I work predominantly with, I work only with Indians. My friend circle is from India, also very likely from the same sort of background, similar states, similar caste communities. So to just be pulled out of that is a revelation and it's, it tells you that the world can be very interesting and fun.

[00:59:34] Jayashree: So your question is, what conference would I like to attend? I think, um, I think more media conferences. I think it's too early for me to be all ambition. Say, yeah, I wanna talk about climate change and all. I wanna attend more media conferences only because I think there's something really reassuring to me, journalists from various places who all just want one thing and which is.

[00:59:54] Jayashree: To report the news and do it well. So 

[00:59:56] Abhinandan: Isha, 

[00:59:57] Jayashree: yeah, 

[00:59:57] Manisha: like I said before. So what. [01:00:00] The thing that I like about journalism, and I've attended quite a few now. The last one was the one with DW in Berlin. 

[01:00:06] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:06] Manisha: Um, which again, like you're meeting so many people from different countries and understanding that journalism has such similar struggles.

[01:00:14] Manisha: There was one in Nepal also that I, I was a smallest South Asian one. I always enjoy South Asian conferences a lot. Yeah. Because I feel like there isn't enough solid because of primarily trouble between India and Pakistan. Every other smaller country feels like it's been pulled into some direction or the other.

[01:00:30] Manisha: So there's not enough conversation in terms of, uh, what we are going through as journalist community, and a lot of us are going through very similar things. I think India still is. Far better than most South Asian countries when it comes to press freedom. But still, there are a lot of similar struggles, similar cultures, uh, similar ways in which politicians want to control the media.

[01:00:49] Manisha: So I'm always amazed when I'm listening to somebody in Pakistan or Sri Lanka or Nepal, what their media is doing there. Tweaking the social media laws, first thing to control the media. And it's [01:01:00] always so interesting to see that these. I wonder like if in these diverses conferences there's a separate thing where all these authoritarians get together and say, what are you doing in your country?

[01:01:08] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[01:01:08] Manisha: Best practice. Whatcha doing? China? Whatcha are doing? India, Pakistan. Okay. We'll also, we'll also 

[01:01:12] Abhinandan: use best practices '

[01:01:13] Manisha: cause it's actually, when you talk to journalists, you realize the best practices that all these politicians are using to curb media. And that makes you feel, oddly, makes you feel hopeful that wow, everyone's struggling, but everyone's trying to find a way out of it.

[01:01:25] Manisha: And everyone's still being hopeful. And I know that around journalism, there's been so much despondency in India itself because we feel like it's become so hard and this and that it has. But these places also give you hope because you see that, my God, journalists are doing such amazing, amazing work stuff in such difficult circumstances.

[01:01:42] Manisha: You better not complain. You're one of the most privileged journalists, you know, working out of Delhi. I've, on a side note, I think, uh, we've just had jet lit fist that has gotten over in Jan. I remember my first jet lit fest, and I don't know how it is now, but that was amazing for me also because. You know, there [01:02:00] was one professor who had done his PhD in Bob Dylan.

[01:02:03] music: Mm. 

[01:02:03] Manisha: There was one, um, Jewish writer I still remember who really went into this whole psychology of why people think that, you know, everyone's who's come out of Holocaust is gonna be a nice human being. And he gave this whole lecture about what misery and pain really does to people. So I really like such conferences also, which are not a lot about professional or like day-to-day kind of thing, but ideas and sense philosophies, uh, different ways of looking at the world.

[01:02:29] Manisha: Um, so, but there aren't enough in India, unfortunately. There 

[01:02:32] Jayashree: just like, but I, I want to say one last thing though, which is also that at this conference it was like 160 ish people from various places, whatever. I did find one news laundry subscriber, which made me very excited. He said he'd also contributed to Aena and then he was asking me many questions on the stories that we had done.

[01:02:48] Jayashree: So I was like, it's very unexpected, but also it was great. And also this thing about, um, yeah, the sense of despondency and all, but I do wanna say one thing, which is that. If you are a subscriber news laundry, I will say that you are supporting a [01:03:00] success story. Like I think my one great takeaway from that conference was that everyone is looking for a way to move into a subscription model.

[01:03:07] Jayashree: So they had a lot of questions for me, especially after my panel where they were saying, but you guys have done it and we want to learn how to do well, so, so you 

[01:03:13] Abhinandan: were the expert everybody wanna learn from. 

[01:03:15] Jayashree: I was the expert guys. And I was like, well this is a rare and exciting opportunity. But yeah, so it was just, that was a really gratifying sort of moment.

[01:03:22] Manisha: Yeah. I also feel very smug sometimes because a lot of people are like, how do we get subscriptions? Like, huh? We're doing that thanks to subscribers. 

[01:03:30] Abhinandan: Yeah. Because we make appeals that are effective as we will just demonstrate, 

[01:03:36] Manisha: subscribe to news, laundry, guys. It is Republic Day on the 26th of Jan. We stand up through the year for your rights.

[01:03:44] Abhinandan: Yes. 

[01:03:44] Manisha: Yes. And it's time that you stood up once just for us, correct. Please. So that we can stand up through the year. 

[01:03:50] Abhinandan: Yes. And uh, you know, on just. The things that I look forward to when I'm invited to conferences is like twice when I've gone for that India [01:04:00] conference at Harvard. 

[01:04:00] Manisha: Yeah. How is 

[01:04:01] Abhinandan: that in Boston?

[01:04:02] Abhinandan: Uh, in New York. I had gone to Colomba University in 2018. I dunno when it was, uh, when me and Under Care had lunch and hugged and got photographs clicked with each other. Uh, the London had gone to the Bridge India conference. For me, the high point of the conferences that this subscriber meet, we used to have in New York, we did it at Washington Square Park, uh, in Boston.

[01:04:30] Abhinandan: We did it at some restaurant. And then when, you know, anything from 15 to in the London, uh, subscriber meet 60 people came six zero. That is exciting for me. I'm like, okay, this conference is, was worth it just for this. Uh, but, uh, as far as the Harvard India Conference concerned. I don't wanna take names, but they invite some real losers.

[01:04:54] Abhinandan: I mean, these are people you could not learn anything from. I'm like, fuck, seriously, [01:05:00] like these? Which is, which is why, uh, 

[01:05:02] Manisha: this is a problem. It is a uniquely Indian problem and it's on all ideological sides. But there are these conference goers who are there everywhere. Oh my. But there's nothing that you can learn from them.

[01:05:12] Manisha: No, not 

[01:05:12] Abhinandan: just that. 

[01:05:13] Jayashree: There's one I was gonna say, I was gonna say exactly that. Like there are people who, and I know, I mean, again, I don't wanna take names there of journalists who do really great work, but after a point it'll be like they have done some work, but maybe 20 years ago, but, or 15 years ago. But they just attend conferences on the backs of that.

[01:05:27] Jayashree: And they have become this sort of representative of India. 

[01:05:29] Abhinandan: I mean, I don't even mind that my thing is this particular one, right? I just feel cruel saying names. But, you know, a billionaire son who started a company, his quote unquote startup, got funding from one of the biggest funds in the world. Uh. And we all knew it as a complete failure of a startup.

[01:05:53] Abhinandan: But I'm sure, see again, just 'cause we say it's Harvard doesn't mean those kids are informed. They're kids at the end of the day. [01:06:00] They're between the ages of 18, 17 and maybe 21, 22. And there were some locals come from around, but any of us who were over 30 and I was well over 30, knew this guy. Startup is a sinking ship.

[01:06:12] Abhinandan: It is one of the, the opposite of success story, whatever that word is. And he was giving yarn on how to make a startup work. Of course, that startup has wound up about a year ago it it was, who 

[01:06:24] Manisha: does I Very curious who? Billion. So 

[01:06:27] Abhinandan: I'll tell you, uh, or. There'll be some other loser, uh, like this woman who unfortunately what happened to her with the kind of threats she got and her party abandoned her.

[01:06:39] Abhinandan: The BJ p spokesperson who was threatened with beheading, et cetera? No, no 

[01:06:43] Jayashree: pool. 

[01:06:43] Abhinandan: But I was on a conference with her and uh, at, I think this was at the Kennedy School, uh, she was on stage as was, and this one 18, 19-year-old kid from Pakistan stood up and asked a question and this woman went to bar and she [01:07:00] said, I felt like saying, dude, the kid is 18, man, pick on someone your own size.

[01:07:05] Abhinandan: You know? I was like, I can't believe I'm on this loser panel. And I wanted to just crawl under the table and fr I do not want to be on this panel. So sometimes it's like losers barath who have no relevance in your own country. International. 

[01:07:25] music: Hmm. 

[01:07:26] Abhinandan: Nothing of use. But, so I mean it, but of course you get these little moments of excitement where Ji will trash that, um, that big Raj Molly film, whatever it's called.

[01:07:41] Manisha: Hmm. 

[01:07:42] Abhinandan: So there's pa and there's Raj Molly sitting there and he says, these films, big budget that just, you know, underscore or whatever the word I'm looking for is reinforce Abraham iCal stereotypes. 

[01:07:55] Jayashree: Nice. 

[01:07:55] Abhinandan: Yeah. Uh, I'm like, yeah, that is thrilling. 

[01:07:58] Jayashree: Mm. 

[01:07:58] Abhinandan: So yeah, just 

[01:07:59] Jayashree: like [01:08:00] people that wouldn't otherwise be in the same room like you and this BJ people person.

[01:08:02] Abhinandan: Exactly. All, all this. I mean, my only thing was at the dinner I like zero into JI and I said, now I'm just gonna capture him and just talk to him all evening. 'cause you learn. And then I got there. He can only talk through an interpreter. He only speaks only tamal. 

[01:08:17] Jayashree: But do you not bring out your 

[01:08:18] Abhinandan: tam? I of course you heard so much 

[01:08:20] Jayashree: about 

[01:08:20] Abhinandan: it.

[01:08:20] Abhinandan: My fakeness was exposed completely for the fraud that I am. Bloody hell. Uh, but yeah, there's some good points. But, uh, moving on now, I just like Manisha and Gehi to tell us a little about, 'cause I know we've reported on this Manisha, you have even made a trip there in the last few years. Yeah. I think you made two trips to Kmi in the last, uh, five, six years.

[01:08:42] Abhinandan: One 

[01:08:42] Manisha: one uh, one trip. 

[01:08:43] Abhinandan: One trip. 

[01:08:44] Manisha: During the, uh, election. Election, November 

[01:08:46] Abhinandan: 24. Now, uh, context being about five reporters that we are six that we know of, maybe more who are not coming out. 'cause people are so scared, like 

[01:08:55] Manisha: Yeah. People are 

[01:08:56] Abhinandan: racing. We cannot get, uh, and those of you who've listened to Hafta for [01:09:00] the last 12 years that's been around know we have had reporters from Kashmir talking here, German Kashmir.

[01:09:06] Abhinandan: We cannot get any now. Mm. Because people are too scared to talk. So, uh, you know, Manisha give us the context of what's happening. It's not a new thing, but it's reached a stage where. The clamp town is actually effective. 

[01:09:19] Manisha: So we know that over the last one year, at least 25 journalists have been summoned The recent 

[01:09:24] Abhinandan: by the JK Police.

[01:09:25] Manisha: Yeah. And this is, uh, the recent, uh, summoning have made news because it involves journalists working in prominent, uh, national media. So typically the understanding in Kashmir is that if you are working with international organizations, if you're freelancing or if you're with local media, you are more vulnerable.

[01:09:40] Manisha: Whereas if you're with an Indian Express, you're with the economic times or in the Sun times, you are. Slightly more protected because you have Delhi backing you a little bit. You, you have an organization. Now, these were journalists. Uh, two of them, uh, were from Indian Express and Hindustan Times, they were both called in, uh, and summoned asked questions about their reporting [01:10:00] suggestions were made that their, their reporting can disrupt public order.

[01:10:03] Manisha: And we know when something like that is said in Kashmir, it means PSA, which means you can be in jail, locked up for God knows how long, um, without any charges. You're just a threat to public security, and you can be locked up. They were asked 

[01:10:16] Jayashree: Underst sometimes guy didn't go right because they said that he only got an oral summon.

[01:10:19] Jayashree: Yeah, they need to put it in writing before they'll send a 

[01:10:22] Manisha: Yeah, 

[01:10:23] Jayashree: but again, only because his newspaper stood up for him. 

[01:10:25] Manisha: Yeah. So crucially here, the newspapers, even Indian Express had a French paid story saying that a reporter was called, he was asked to sign a bond, refused to sign a bond. Um, but I think you've had some pushback precisely because Delhi newspapers stood up.

[01:10:41] Manisha: And they kind of published editorials, they published front page stories. But this is a story of all journalists there. In fact, we had a report from there, but we could not, it went as NL team because again, the reporter didn't want their byline. Mm. So the level of fear is such, and you know, it just, it's not just about the journalists themselves.

[01:10:58] Manisha: We know while I was there, [01:11:00] the journalists families have had to suffer. They've lost because apart from government employment, there's not much there. So you are pretty much at the, even the families are at the mercy of government employment in the valley, especially. So a journalist writing a story, being, you know, questioned over, it could mean the wife loses a job or the father loses a job.

[01:11:19] Manisha: So it's, I mean, I can't, it is a very suffocating situation. And this is something that we had reported when we were there, back there for elections. Uh, we are not talking about conflict reporting. The key thing to understand here is they're not reporting on encounters. They're not reporting on what, uh, ex militant said, did.

[01:11:38] Manisha: This is simple day-to-day news gathering, like general reporting or what the police did or, uh, what is happening in the valley. It, it, sometimes you can also be summoned for simply reporting what an official said in a press conference. 

[01:11:52] music: Hmm. 

[01:11:52] Manisha: So it, the, there is no threshold to, you know, what could land you in a [01:12:00] police station being questioned for us because it could be anything at all.

[01:12:03] Manisha: It could also be the municipality is not doing its job. There's a garbage problem, there's a stray dog problem. Anything at all can just land you, because it's a public disorder, you're causing public safety disorder. So, 

[01:12:15] Abhinandan: you know, just to underline the point that it's being noticed because Delhi Papers Yeah.

[01:12:19] Abhinandan: Have been summoned. We are at an extreme privilege being in Delhi. Just to give you an idea, in the last several years we've got, uh, you know, a call. I got a call from the Edan Police Station. Come here. I'm like, hello. Why? What? How? Of course this was because of the total rah because it was important enough for the police station to intervene that how dare you insult this man?

[01:12:45] Jayashree: Of course. 

[01:12:46] Abhinandan: Uh, but because I'm Delhi, I was like, my lawyer's gonna come my, I ain't coming. Same thing with you, p with a story. 

[01:12:51] music: Yeah. 

[01:12:53] Abhinandan: You don't have that. They'll already land up at your house. Yeah. You see, that is why we can still tough it out. [01:13:00] It's very difficult for someone in J and K to tough it out because there is no insulation.

[01:13:04] Abhinandan: Delhi provides great insulation. That's, and that is why I think those headquarter in Delhi have to step up and protect those of their reporters who are not in Delhi. 'cause it's a completely different dynamic. 

[01:13:18] Manisha: So again, like in this case with Indian Express and HT World, there was a lot of outcry, but we, even, our report shows that a lot of freelancers, journalists, working for international organizations have been called someone humiliated.

[01:13:28] Manisha: And they've been asked to sign good behavior bond. 

[01:13:30] Abhinandan: Like, who the fuck are you just said I should be on my best. 

[01:13:33] Manisha: Can you imagine? Can you win your, so, and those guys never get talked about again. The other thing is also that, like I said, there jobs are few, there's either government, employment or tourism. 

[01:13:42] music: Mm.

[01:13:42] Manisha: And there's literacy levels are high because I think the one stress that parents do have is that if you, you know, you, you wanna stop your child from getting into militancy or doing anything wrong as you push education. Mm. So study studies. So therefore you also have a high degree of journalists there.

[01:13:58] Manisha: I think the number of cvs that I get from [01:14:00] Kashmir is always. Something else. Because simply all the stories 

[01:14:03] Jayashree: that we get on our submissions email, 

[01:14:04] Manisha: about 80% 

[01:14:06] Jayashree: of them are from 

[01:14:06] Manisha: K journals, are from Kmi, because A, it's not getting published in the local press there, it's completely been finished off. And B, there is just generally a lot of people studying and studying journalism.

[01:14:18] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[01:14:18] Manisha: So you have a lot of young people who are unable to do anything there. 

[01:14:22] Abhinandan: Yeah. She, this doesn't make much, uh, news in, uh, Chennai. Right. Unfortunately, Kashmir, it only makes news up till Delhi. 

[01:14:30] Jayashree: No, I mean, it's still be a headline, but my take from this is that, um, and I, I don't know if there's something I'm allowed to say or whatever, but I think the funny thing is that the, when the Indian State tells us time and time again that anyone who says that, uh, there is an occupation in Kashmir is incorrect.

[01:14:44] Jayashree: Right. Because it is part of India and so on. But then I'm saying you're doing things like summoning journalists, seizing passports, slapping cases, demanding. They sign bonds, good behavior bonds. You collect their ID cards, you have contact information for their family members. You harass them as well. You put them in jail.[01:15:00] 

[01:15:00] Jayashree: Bring them out. And then you put another case on them. And I'm saying, these are all things that if this is a free and democratic component of free India, these are steps that you should not be taking. It 

[01:15:11] Abhinandan: is, it isn't consistent with the off 

[01:15:14] Jayashree: repeated line that's consistent with your messaging. That 

[01:15:15] Abhinandan: which is, which is quote un normalcy has returned to German kashmirs.

[01:15:19] Jayashree: Yeah. And I mean, you also have, 

[01:15:21] Abhinandan: let, let, let this not be normalcy. Please. 

[01:15:23] Jayashree: Yeah. And instead, and so you're doing all this because you don't want something clearly reported or anything reported at all. And instead, now all we're getting is headlines that the Indian state is trying to make journalism a crime in Kashmir.

[01:15:35] Jayashree: So it's just, 

[01:15:37] Manisha: I think the scary part while talking to journalists in Kashmir is this, that, uh, so in journalist, you know, you could have an FIR because you reported the midday meal scheme is not working well or there's, I don't know, ra mata and the food or whatever. You've had such cases where journalists in been filed F fis because simply they reported not trash problem in kmi that.

[01:15:59] Manisha: Comes with the [01:16:00] added threat of UAPA of terrorism of Pakistan. You immediately that, that thing from, you know, oh, you are repeat, your reporting is inconvenient or we didn't like it. Or it's anti-government, which all of us face everywhere. When that moves into that Kash, you know, Pakistani terrorism kind of zone is, it's very quick.

[01:16:19] Manisha: Yeah. And it's, it has far reaching consequences. 

[01:16:22] Abhinandan: One prime time is all 

[01:16:23] Manisha: it takes. Yeah, yeah. 

[01:16:24] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[01:16:24] Manisha: So that is the scarier part, because it's not just that you don't like my journalism and I'm inconvenient to you, and so you wanna put me in jail. That I think a lot of journalists now feel that, okay, you should be ready for that.

[01:16:35] Manisha: Yeah. But that, that. Flip to now you are on the payrolls of ISI or that you're a terrorist, is so quick and so devastating that it's really led a lot of people to just shut up there. 

[01:16:45] Jayashree: Yeah. And, and, and once upon a time you have to at least offer some sort of reasoning as to why you are saying someone is a terrorist or whatever.

[01:16:52] Jayashree: Right Now you can just say it anyway and you'll run with it. And that is your name. Like that. These are your family members. These are very immediate threats to life. [01:17:00] So 

[01:17:01] Manisha: that's, I know that when after Pega there was these, uh, bulldozing of houses of suspects and a few houses were destroyed, how many journalists could actually cover that story?

[01:17:13] Manisha: Mm, none. Yeah. And they were, many of them were threatened that you cannot be reporting what we are doing to houses of suspects and what happened to those suspects? What happened to, um, Pega, you know, attackers, we don't know. 

[01:17:30] Abhinandan: So with that, uh, we'd like to move on to the. Emails. This week's emails have been curated by me.

[01:17:39] Abhinandan: I've been onary. We only entertain the emails and feedback criticism, critique of our subscribers. You can mail us@podcastsatnews.com, at repeat podcasts@newslearning.com. Uh, you can, or you can even click on the link in the show notes below. There'll be a little popup window. You can give your feedback there, but please [01:18:00] keep it to one 50 words.

[01:18:02] Abhinandan: If it's more than one 50 words, it'll be deprioritized and it'll come up when we do our monthly subscribers take and it'll be compressed using ai. Uh, so yeah, and put hafta in your feedback please. So Manisha, can you please read? 

[01:18:17] Manisha: So Rohit Kani says recently AB and then was arguing that sudden states of Bengalis don't take jokes very well.

[01:18:24] Manisha: That was me actually. Or they're quick to take offense. I don't agree with it. In 2012, there was outrage on a show called hin, in which Rajiv ni comedian made a reference to 1984. They had to take it down and apologize. I don't agree with this thought process that some cultures are more quick to offense and some are not.

[01:18:41] Manisha: Every culture has a conservative fringe that reacts and every culture has rational people stop generalizing. 

[01:18:47] Abhinandan: And Rohith has given this link, it's in the show notes of this short documentary called I'm Offended, um, which is on being Indian. Uh, [01:19:00] you know, talking to, and this is very old, I think from 10 years ago.

[01:19:04] Abhinandan: But, uh, I mean, yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't agree. I think certain cultures take offense more than others. Just like I think if I were to make a joke on and I have often on Indian gods, I would not have to watch my back if I made a joke on the prophet, I would have to watch my back. I don't agree that all cultures take it easy.

[01:19:23] Abhinandan: I can say things about Christ and I don't have to worry about an existential risk. So no, I disagree that all cultures are the same when it comes to jokes and how they take them. 

[01:19:36] Manisha: Sha says, dear Nl Team, wanted to recommend a book on Iran. It's a graphic novel called Scioli by Mar Satrapi. Yes, we've read it.

[01:19:44] Manisha: Yes, 

[01:19:45] Abhinandan: you've read it. 

[01:19:45] Manisha: Also, there's another graphic novel by Joe Sko on the Up riots title, the One and Future Riots. Joe Sacco's Way of Drawing Faces and Expressions is quite powerful. Some of his other books such as Palestine, footnotes on Gaza Safe [01:20:00] Area Goza are also quite good. Wanted to recommend graphic novels as they keep getting dismissed, as being for children and too expensive.

[01:20:07] Manisha: Please use independent bookstore to buy books if you, if a book doesn't exist on their website, they can always arrange it for. 

[01:20:14] Abhinandan: So I completely agree with you. In fact, safe area Raz, the how we pronounce it. 

[01:20:20] Manisha: Hmm. 

[01:20:20] Abhinandan: I don't know if it's his only one on, uh, Bosnia. Uh, I think there's one more that he's done. Or maybe I'm just confused.

[01:20:26] Abhinandan: But that was my first exposure to the conflict there. And I think he had communicated the brutality of that war. So effectively it made your hair stand and then more than any report would've, I completely agree with you, but just the time it, 'cause we've done two graphic novels of our own. You can buy them.

[01:20:43] Abhinandan: Here's one Kashmir Kani, here's the other Ammar Bari tomar Barbar link is in the show notes. Here's a QR code. You can buy it, gift it to a friend of yours on their birthday or something. It is, not only will it support independent media, it'll also inform them of the [01:21:00] history and political and, you know, social history of these two contexts.

[01:21:04] Abhinandan: Uh, but it's just very expensive to make, man. I mean the amount of time, energy, effort, 'cause we've worked on two. It. You have to have that kind of bandwidth and I don't think we do right now. 

[01:21:17] Manisha: Anonymous says hi team. Me and my family currently live in the US and we plan to move back to India next year to stay closer to parents.

[01:21:22] Manisha: Every time I listen to Tite makes me rethink if we are making the right decision. Keep up the good work. You're really the voice we want to hear in the times when all the TV medias unwatchable. If you're coming to the north, then maybe avoid, yeah, 

[01:21:34] Abhinandan: anonymous. I will say that 

[01:21:36] Manisha: go to the South 

[01:21:37] Abhinandan: if you're the Manisha defeated, don't come back.

[01:21:40] Abhinandan: If you're in the US I would think that maybe India is not such a bad option, but if in Europe. It's a no contest as far as I'm concerned. It's not even close. 

[01:21:53] Manisha: Nu says, I'm glad that Han thou you finally had a bonafide member of the Western media to counter jeri's [01:22:00] tired, cliched, frankly tedious Ty against the US and Western media.

[01:22:04] Manisha: I do not support Trump and his avatar of the US as far removed from the country I've known for over 25 years. However, the voices of opposition are growing louder, unlike India. And this regime will see its end very soon because it is deeply unpopular as it goes against most of what Americans believe about themselves.

[01:22:18] Manisha: What and all. I wanna challenge Esri to name an alternate system of government and cite a nation. She, she considers a paragon of virtue. She loses credibility with every iteration of her reflexive anti-American rant. Oh my God, 

[01:22:32] Abhinandan: I, I kept this specifically for Jesse to react. 

[01:22:35] Jayashree: Thank you everything. Then 

[01:22:36] Manisha: rant away.

[01:22:37] Abhinandan: Rant all yours, Jesse. 

[01:22:38] Jayashree: No, no. We've done many rants. I think I ranted last week also. I mean, but I've said this before. I mean, I don't think I need to look for a paragon of virtue. I'm not even looking for a paragon of virtue. You're telling me, I mean I, these are not reflexive rants for me. I think I've already shown my receipts in what you should be reading and noticing and [01:23:00] consuming to also understand that America is not what we would love to think it is.

[01:23:06] Jayashree: I think if you think America is virtuous and that what we are seeing now is an exception, I think we are a little bit drinking the Kool-Aid. And if you're saying who is better than the country that has supported the genocide for two years, I will say I will pick any country that is not supporting the genocide for two years and I will be able to defend it.

[01:23:23] Jayashree: And also, yes, I mean, I think. Washington Post is currently cheering on the Venezuelan kidnapping. Yes, Hanta rule works for it, but also if you read its editorials, it's owned by Jeff Bezos who's having Donald dinner with Donald Trump and waiting for his contracts. I think there is a sophistication to the sort of propaganda that we see, and yeah, Shanaya war standards is the most sensible and reasonable of its writers.

[01:23:47] Jayashree: But I think if you look at the paper and totality, this isn't, again, me being reflexively leftist or anti-American. I think it's the facts. So, 

[01:23:55] Abhinandan: yeah. 

[01:23:55] Jayashree: Yeah. 

[01:23:55] Abhinandan: Just saying that hers, but I, I'm with you on that. I don't think they're perfect as far [01:24:00] as political systems are concerned. Out of all that we have. 

[01:24:04] Jayashree: Yeah, but 

[01:24:04] Abhinandan: I think it at why I think it's the least flawed.

[01:24:06] Abhinandan: Because it is accountable. That's the 

[01:24:08] Jayashree: yes, but which is why I would also love to have a longer, deeper discussion on, when we talk about democracy, what we mean by it, and that versus real democracy. Because democracy is yes, holding in elections, having institutions where there is a reasonable level of accountability, where you have a judiciary that is independent and works in a certain way.

[01:24:26] Jayashree: But I think in a lot of democratic countries that we see today, this is not happening in the way that it should. And we are sort of okay with that baseline level of bullshit because we are like, well, at least it is not a worse system. But I feel like yes, you shouldn't be that easily satisfied. 

[01:24:42] Abhinandan: No, I completely agree with you.

[01:24:43] Abhinandan: I, I co, but I just so that everybody's talking about the same thing, the framing has to be such that what is democracy? What are the kind of outcomes it has? Look at it historically and how it is flawed in various parts, including America right now. [01:25:00] 

[01:25:00] Jayashree: Good. 

[01:25:00] Abhinandan: Yeah. As opposed to. Saying this system is completely crap without the rider that's saying, 'cause this one is better.

[01:25:09] Jayashree: The rider. Yes. We'll 

[01:25:11] Abhinandan: keep the writer think. I think that is the only context. 

[01:25:14] Jayashree: Yeah. 

[01:25:14] Manisha: Ishita says, happy New Year to everyone's suggestion. When you plan to interview a book author, can you let subscribers know before that way, readers like me who have read the book, would share questions for the author. Of course, you can decide which questions to ask or not.

[01:25:27] Manisha: It's difficult to access these authors. I understood this will increase labor on your side, but in case there's a book which I do plan on reading, I would happily volunteer to help create the subscriber questions. 

[01:25:38] Abhinandan: Ista 

[01:25:38] Jayashree: done. 

[01:25:40] Abhinandan: Thank you. Wonderful. Physicians suggestion like this. So who is not just our chief uh, engagement executive?

[01:25:49] Abhinandan: Uh, she's also the day 

[01:25:51] Jayashree: remembers 

[01:25:51] Abhinandan: the exact title. Yeah. 

[01:25:52] Jayashree: Title 

[01:25:53] Manisha: partner 

[01:25:54] Abhinandan: will be, she's the chief Engage. You're like the 

[01:25:57] Manisha: CEO calling people, officers and [01:26:00] partners. 

[01:26:00] Abhinandan: Yeah. So, uh, 

[01:26:02] Manisha: but we know the truth. 

[01:26:03] Abhinandan: We'll do that. So I'll just tell you, uh, JHI, what we'll do is we'll announce it on Hafta as well in future, the ones that are scheduled right now, the dates are still figured out.

[01:26:13] Abhinandan: Uh, KU I'm interviewing in the next month. At some point an ku uh, man shall be interviewing. Um, so we have these two, but we'll give you the dates so you can send your questions and we'll also 

[01:26:27] Jayashree: send out an email to subscribers. Yeah. So 

[01:26:29] Abhinandan: you 

[01:26:29] can 

[01:26:29] Jayashree: just reply to it with your questions. 

[01:26:31] Abhinandan: And, uh, just this last thing, Somia has asked, how do you connect the Android, uh, app with Android based smart tv?

[01:26:38] Abhinandan: So these are the steps, uh, which have been helpfully provided to me by Tik. Step one, make sure your phone and TV are connected to the same wifi network. Step two on your phone, swipe down to access the control panel. Step three, look for the cast option and tap on it. Step four, a list of available [01:27:00] device will appear.

[01:27:00] Abhinandan: Select your TV from the list. I hope that helps. I would not be able to do this 'cause I'm an uncle. 

[01:27:06] Jayashree: No, no. But also, just to clarify, uh, you will not find the news laundry app on your Android based smart tv. So instead you can cast it using the steps 

[01:27:15] Abhinandan: that 

[01:27:15] Jayashree: has explained. 

[01:27:16] Abhinandan: It's It is, yes. Oh, okay. So that's what it does also, it's playing off your phone.

[01:27:20] Abhinandan: Oh, I you're 

[01:27:20] Jayashree: playing it on your phone. And the same thing would be on yours, te from the little screen to the big screen 

[01:27:25] Abhinandan: technology. Yeah. Okay. Now I get it. Fine. See, I just have to be explained a little bit. Basically, this smart devices are to my generation, what cables were to my parents' generation. Like when VCR.

[01:27:41] Abhinandan: Music system tv. They'd say they co connect car 'cause they could not know the RCA cable, which one goes west? Of course we were the experts and they didn't know how to take apart the cable. There's 

[01:27:51] Jayashree: no need, no need to look so sm this information is helping nobody anymore. 

[01:27:55] Abhinandan: So I know and now I have the same problem.

[01:27:57] Abhinandan: I need something connected. I have to call up one of our youngsters [01:28:00] saying that. How do I do this on in Stars With that, let's get the recommendations for the week. You wanna go first? Ri 

[01:28:07] Jayashree: Yeah. Been a bad reading week again guys, all the books are terrible, so I'll recommend two stories I read. One is, okay, so there is a food trend that a lot of people hate, but I personally love and it is that everything is extremely spicy.

[01:28:23] Jayashree: You'll see all these ghastly like. Korean flavors and Naga chilies included in everything. And I love this trend because I really like spicy food. So it's a billion dollar opportunity for food companies. And, um, there's a lot of reasons as to why it's happening. Scientists are saying that the compound in chilies triggers a pain response that the brain counters with pleasure inducing end dolphins also.

[01:28:45] Jayashree: Uh, this is allowing a lot of familiar companies like PepsiCo to revamp products spicy to attract consumers. So what is this trend? How is it playing out? What is its value? And will it ever end? For all the questions to this, you will have to read this piece in Bloomberg, which I found [01:29:00] quite interesting.

[01:29:01] Jayashree: And the second one is, um, it was a story in times of India that I read this morning in the paper. 

[01:29:06] music: Mm-hmm. 

[01:29:07] Jayashree: So basically 40 years ago, a psychiatrist in Chennai had rented a building with borrowed furniture on a rotary phone. She set up one of India's first. Volunteer led suicide help helplines. This was a time when, um, doctors used to say that, yeah, it was only like white men who really suffer from things like loneliness and, you know, being widowed and that's why people have mental health issues and have suicidal tendencies.

[01:29:28] Jayashree: But what doctors are seeing on the ground in India was that a lot of young people, a lot of married people who were in distress and not due to a clear mental illness, but due to social pressure. So the psychiatrist set up this helpline, which called Sneha, which still exists. It's now a wider effort to address suicide prevention in India.

[01:29:45] Jayashree: Wow. And I think it's quite an important read if you are from China. You've heard of Sneha, you've heard of Dr. LaMi Komar in the work she's done. So this is a good sort of summary of why it's important and what it does. Yeah. 

[01:29:59] Abhinandan: Vania. [01:30:00] 

[01:30:00] Manisha: So our subscriber recommending, um, graphic novels. Got me to recommend the, my favorite graphic novelist who's guide Elise.

[01:30:10] Manisha: Uh, I know a lot of people like Joe Sko, but I find the, I find guys art much nicer because it's, I like clean lines like comics. I don't like it to be too populated. I like just squares and straight lines. Uh, two books. He's, again, a travel writer. Uh, most of his books are in account of his travel in different countries, so there's one on Jerusalem called Jerusalem and one on Burma called Burma Chronicles.

[01:30:34] Manisha: Both of them are really fabulous, uh, graphic novels that you should pick up. 

[01:30:39] Abhinandan: I have the following recommendation of one is this is the Intelligence Podcast from the Economist power ballot, Japanese PMs, electoral Gamble, because of all the, you know, attention that Trump hogs and of course, the. Large country that we live in, there's just so much happening.

[01:30:57] Abhinandan: Um, we often [01:31:00] ignore other significant economies and countries in our neighborhood and two countries where there are crises, well not a crisis, but in one place, a crisis that was unfolded and the outcome is due of that. And the other one where there is major churn happening, one is, uh, South Korea and one is Japan.

[01:31:17] Abhinandan: So this one is power ballad, Japanese PM's, electoral gamble. Really interesting on how she is actually dealing with the many challenges. And she's the first woman. Premier of Japan and in South Korea's case how the president has been given life imprisonment for his attempted coup or whatever he attempted.

[01:31:35] Abhinandan: Uh, so yeah, this is one podcast and I, after a long time, I thought that it was a good time to revisit. Well not revisit, but check out Nu editorials. He's written two in the last week. One is, uh, equality is Not the Enemy of Growth. Oli, 

[01:31:54] Manisha: please. You understood it. 

[01:31:57] Abhinandan: I understood. I just thought it was interesting why [01:32:00] 

[01:32:00] Manisha: I could not understand it.

[01:32:03] Manisha: I was like, like, it's such a difficult piece to understand. I really try to understand it. I couldn't. I 

[01:32:11] Jayashree: love it. 

[01:32:12] Manisha: I could You understand what this line, because. He's obviously, it's about the whole, uh, 10 minute delivery thing, right? It's, 

[01:32:19] Abhinandan: I mean, he hasn't named it, he's not in that context. 

[01:32:22] Manisha: There was one 

[01:32:23] Abhinandan: classic line, 

[01:32:24] Manisha: which I should 

[01:32:24] Abhinandan: ask you, but he, the whole philosophical debate about it's an interesting moral, moral value or not.

[01:32:28] Abhinandan: And of course, I, at the risk of becoming predictable, that's, I'm not recommending it. You know, the Champions League season is on, and the group of 16 matches will start soon. I'm sure you guys have been watching what's been happening. So yeah, the Manchester City match was exciting. It's nice to see them loose.

[01:32:46] Abhinandan: Uh, on that note, this week's song has been picked by Manisha Pande. Woohoo. We'll leave you with that and with the appeal, do pay to keep news free. Here's a QR code. Again, there's a link. It's [01:33:00] Republic Day. This week, hafta is gonna be outside the paywall, shared it with everybody who you know, who would be interested in supporting journalism, because when the public pays, the public is.

[01:33:10] Abhinandan: So, have a great Republic Day weekend and we'll see you again next week. Thank you our dear. Sound recorders, Anil. Thank you Amitha producer. Thank you, Jeri. Thank you, Manisha.[01:34:00] 

[01:34:10] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. You are changing the world by changing the way News is funded for the smoothest news laundry experience. Download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free news laundry shows. Keep us ad free and subscriber funded.

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