Hafta 590: The Norway question that shook Modi’s tour and Press Freedom

This week on Hafta, Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande and Anand Vardhan are joined by Suhasini Haidar,  Diplomatic Affairs Editor at The Hindu.

In this week’s episode, the discussion moves from PM Modi’s Europe tour, particularly his visit to Norway, to press freedom. 

Suhasini Haidar, who was present at the venue in Oslo, describes how shocked Norwegian journalists were to learn that the Indian Prime Minister would not be taking questions at all. 

She says, “We have so normalised in the Indian media this idea that the prime minister doesn’t take unscripted questions, that we didn’t even clock how big a deal it was for Europeans.”

Suhasini criticises the way the focus shifts to attacking the reporter’s background, ideology, and even personal life, rather than engaging with the issue she raised.

“The focus became about that journalist — who she is, what her background is, where she goes on vacation. It’s not about the question anymore. It is about the fact that the prime minister does not take unscripted questions.”

Abhinandan points out how deeply normalised this culture has become in India. 

“It is so alien to journalists outside India. They are shocked at the kind of barrage and abuse that follows a simple question,” he remarks while discussing the online trolling and threats directed at the Norwegian journalist after the incident.

Manisha argues that the government’s response to the controversy reveals how deeply political communication in India is driven by headline management rather than accountability. 

She adds, “The focus is so much on controlling the headlines, which you've managed to do in India so well that that is all your focus, and you've been unable to do it with the world media, so you don't get it. Like, why are these guys asking us questions? But I think this basic understanding that the world is not going to bend in the way that the Indian media has to you, large parts of it, many are free, but a large part of the loud primetime segment has completely given in to you.”

All this and more.

Hafta letters: Opposition failures, no ‘manels’, and missing Jayashree

If you want to write to Hafta, click here. Click here to contribute to our Sena project. Check out the Newslaundry store and flaunt your love for independent media. Download the Newslaundry app.

Song:  I Love My India

Timecodes

00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements

00:02:16- Headlines

00:11:15 - Modi’s 5 Nation Tour & Press question row 

01:11:23 -  Suhasini’s recommendation

01:14:01 – Letters

01:23:42- Recommendations

References

Press Freedom Month

A trail of grief, little accountability: The Marion Biotech story after 68 children deaths

Mission Vatican in Kashi: The battle between ideology and faith

5 years, over 21% rise in preterm birth rate: Delhi’s air is cutting pregnancies short

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Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.

Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistance from Ashish. Sound by Anil Kumar.

[00:00:00] Manisha: This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to NL Hafta

[00:00:11] Abhinandan: अंग्रेज़ अपना लगान और News Laundry अपना हफ्ता कभी नहीं छोड़ते। Welcome to NL हफ्ता from a hot searing Delhi. Those who were celebrating a very pleasant beginning of May. Well, welcome to reality. Uh, today we will be joined by Suhasini Haidar, who I shall introduce later [00:00:30] formally, and Anand Tardan who will be joining us soon.

[00:00:34] Abhinandan: But before we get into the introductions and हफ्ता discussions, I would like to remind everybody that this is the third week of the Press Freedom Month We had a special appeal. We had targets set that in this press freedom month, we'd like to get 1,000 more subscribers because like, you know, last year we saw a dip, which was unfortunate.

[00:00:58] Abhinandan: So I hope you guys are convincing your [00:01:00] friends, family. So now I shall read from a script, and while I'm reading this, there is a QR code on the screen, and there's a link you can click or share with your friends. Picture this, you're a journalist with an independent media organization. You don't take ads.

[00:01:14] Abhinandan: So unlike most others, you've already lost a major source of revenue. It's strings attached revenue, but it's not coming. You're bootstrapped but ambitious, butting heads with those in power, pursuing journalism because journalism matters, [00:01:30] not for anything else. That's one day in the life of News Laundry and News Minute, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

[00:01:39] Abhinandan: Now, thousands of you are supporting us, but it'd be great if a few thousand more did, because we need to grow. We need to have reporters in every state, and we need to have the kind of width of programming which has a bigger impact because, as you can see, what's happened to journalism was [00:02:00] demonstrated.

[00:02:00] Abhinandan: We shall discuss that later in the show. So if you are listening to this, you can scan this QR code, click on the link, and share it with your friends and family. Buy one News Laundry, News Minute joint subscription. We will make it worth your while. With that, Anisha, let's get to the headlines. 

[00:02:23] Manisha: Yes. It's been an action-packed week.

[00:02:26] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:02:28] Manisha: During his five nation tour, Prime [00:02:30] Minister Modi visited Norway for the third India Nordic Summit, but the trip made headlines for a tense media moment during a joint press conference. As PM was leaving, Norwegian journalist Hellie Ling, who's become quite popular in India now, asked why he wouldn't take questions from the- And unpopular, 

[00:02:46] Abhinandan: both

[00:02:46] Manisha: popular and unpopular both. Uh, so she asked him why he wouldn't take questions from the freest press in the world. The BJP later clarified that the briefing format did not include a Q&A question, uh, for either leader. And [00:03:00] meanwhile, there was an MEA press conference also where this journalist was invited, where the spokesperson just went on and on and on about yoga and land of great- It was 

[00:03:08] Abhinandan: embarrassing to watch- Yeah

[00:03:09] Abhinandan: if you ask me. Mm. 

[00:03:10] Manisha: So we will have Suhasini with us who will tell us what happened because she was there. 

[00:03:14] Abhinandan: She was in the room. 

[00:03:14] Manisha: Yeah, she was in the room. An online controversy erupted after CJI Suryakant, while pulling up a lawyer for pursuing the designation of senior advocate, made some remarks. He told this particular advocate that there are already parasis- parasites in society who [00:03:30] attack the system, and you wanna hand...

[00:03:32] Manisha: join hands with them. There are youngsters like cockroaches who don't get any employment and don't have any place in the profession. He meant the legal profession Some of them become media, some of them become social media, some of them become RTI activists. And this, of course, snowballed into a controversy.

[00:03:47] Manisha: Later on, the CGI clarified that this comment was not against the youth in general- Mm ... but against people who join the law profession and then don't get to actually lawyer, and then they become activists and, uh- Yeah ... you know, [00:04:00] journalists. Soon after this, uh, an online movement started by Abhijeet Dipke, Cockroach Janta Party, went completely viral.

[00:04:10] Manisha: The parody page blew up online, and within weeks, uh, it has more followers than BJP. It's double the followers of BJP, actually. It has 18 million followers on Instagram. 

[00:04:19] Abhinandan: My God. 

[00:04:21] Manisha: And the X account of Cockroach Janta Party was blocked because of some, uh... Apparently, the IB told the NIA, told [00:04:30] the Ministry of Home Affairs- National 

[00:04:31] Abhinandan: security

[00:04:32] Manisha: that it's a national security 

[00:04:33] Abhinandan: threat. So Cockroach Janta Party Twitter account is national security threat? Yeah. Which is why we are so strong in national security. Yeah. Modi's entire pitch was, "Without me, India would collapse." But- 

[00:04:45] Manisha: And Instagram is full of now cockroach reels, cockroach videos, cockroaches from UP, Rajasthan, "Main Bhi Cockroach".

[00:04:52] Manisha: Everyone's like... It's just hard to escape cockroach on Instagram right now. 

[00:04:57] Abhinandan: Mm. Yes, and Anand has joined us. Yeah. Please [00:05:00] come join 

[00:05:00] Manisha: us, Anand. Come join us. 

[00:05:01] Abhinandan: Hm. 

[00:05:01] Manisha: The Supreme Court has refused to change its earlier order that stray dogs picked up by municipal authorities should not be released back into the same area after sterilization.

[00:05:09] Manisha: Rejecting petitions that sought modifications to the ruling, a bench of Justices Vikram Nath, Sandeep Mehta, NV Anjaria said the government cannot remain a passive spectator while people face the threat of stray dog attack in public spaces. And they also said the right to life includes the right to move freely in public without living in fear of being attacked.

[00:05:29] Abhinandan: And [00:05:30] Bhagwant Mann has jumped onto this bandwagon, and he said, "We will remove all stray dogs." Like, was it specifically directed to Punjab? Like, why is he so excited- No ... about this as well? I 

[00:05:37] Manisha: think it's such a polarizing- 

[00:05:38] Abhinandan: Hm ... 

[00:05:39] Manisha: uh, issue, and it's probably has a lot of resonance among the older people. They, they want the dogs to be out, so.

[00:05:46] Abhinandan: Yeah, I don't know about the dogs, but I know that there was... I- it was an MCD order. I don't know if it... Not a court order, that don't feed cows- Mm ... and pigeons on the roads. At least the drive from my house to [00:06:00] office, there are three rounda- roundabouts, uh, which are full of rotting food- 

[00:06:05] Manisha: Yeah ... 

[00:06:06] Abhinandan: cows, birds, the smell- Why cows?

[00:06:09] Abhinandan: because of rotting food. And I don't know, and I see some people stopping in cars and giving food there. I really don't get it, man. It is- 

[00:06:16] Manisha: I don't get feeding pigeons, honestly. I don't know why so many people feed pigeons. I think, uh- Is it a religious thing? Like, do you have- I 

[00:06:22] Abhinandan: know Amrish Puri in Dilwale-

[00:06:24] Abhinandan: he might have set the trend. Hmm. 

[00:06:26] Manisha: The West Bengal government has made singing of Vande Mataram mandatory in all [00:06:30] madrasas that come under State's Minority Affairs and Madrasa Education Department. 

[00:06:34] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:06:34] Manisha: And the opposition there has said that it's not good to force this on minority institutions. Two MLAs from the Congress were sworn into the Tamil Nadu cabinet led by TVK government.

[00:06:43] Manisha: This is the first time in 59 years that the party will be part of the state cabinet. The government also included seven Dalit ministers into the Tamil Nadu cabinet. A criminal contempt petition has been filed in the Delhi High Court against Arvind Kejriwal and journalist Saurav Das, accusing them of running a [00:07:00] coordinated campaign against Justice Swarnakanta Sharma.

[00:07:03] Abhinandan: Today it's being heard- Yeah, yeah ... apparently right now as we s- as we're recording this. 

[00:07:07] Manisha: Delhi's air pollution is creeping up again, with the air quality index slipping into the poor category. The Commission of Air Quality Management has imposed stage one restrictions on the GRAP across Delhi and NCR.

[00:07:19] Manisha: And News Laundry has an excellent investigation on our campaign fight to breathe. We have looked at five years of data of pregnancies in Delhi across Delhi hospitals, and we found an [00:07:30] increase of 21% in rise in preterm births. We've spoken to a lot of gynecologists who've said that we are losing babies, we cannot explain why.

[00:07:39] Manisha: They have attended to stillbirths. Um, one of the case studies is specifically harrowing, where there's a preterm birth and the diagnosis is respiratory disorder for the mother because of coughing and the kind of stresses it can put on you. So this is, I mean, this is right now very basic RTI data [00:08:00] that tells us very clearly there's an increase in preterm births.

[00:08:02] NDTV clip: Hmm. 

[00:08:03] Manisha: But all doctors we spoke to said that we know this is happening. We know that pollution is severely impacting women. We are seeing stillbirths. We cannot explain why healthy mothers are giving birth to stillborn children. We cannot explain these rise in preterm births. So it's a very good investigation.

[00:08:21] Manisha: Do read it. And I hope- 

[00:08:23] Abhinandan: And do share it with- ... 

[00:08:24] Manisha: we, yeah ... 

[00:08:25] Abhinandan: uh, those, I will not call them educated, people who had the privilege of going to [00:08:30] school, colleges, but yet say, "Hum toh phodenge patake because it jalao the liberals." People with such enormous brains must read these kind of reports. 

[00:08:39] Manisha: The Central Information Commission ruled that BCCI is not a public authority under the RTI Act, meaning it is not required to respond to queries filed under the transparency law.

[00:08:48] Abhinandan: Yay. So we don't know what happens to all the money that goes to BCCI. 

[00:08:52] Manisha: The Supreme Court has agreed to hear a plea challenging the preventive detention of former journalist Satyam Varma under the NSA. He was picked up [00:09:00] because of his alleged role in the Noida workers protest. He's supposed to be the mastermind.

[00:09:05] Manisha: So there's a conspiracy case along with the R/S and the RS. Any protest that happens 

[00:09:08] Abhinandan: has a mastermind. 

[00:09:09] Manisha: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:09:10] Abhinandan: I guess for a government that has very few minds- 

[00:09:13] Manisha: Everything 

[00:09:13] Abhinandan: is a mastermind ... anything that gets organized is a mastermind. 

[00:09:16] Manisha: The CBSE has made it compulsory for class nine students to study three languages starting July 1.

[00:09:21] Manisha: Uh, and at least two of those three languages must be Indian languages. Students can still choose a foreign language, but only as a third language if the other [00:09:30] two are Indian languages. 

[00:09:31] Abhinandan: Hmm. 

[00:09:32] Manisha: So I don't know why poor students are being burdened with this in class nine. Like, why should they learn three languages?

[00:09:38] Manisha: What is it? But- How is it helping them? 

[00:09:40] Abhinandan: So far it was only 'til class eight, right? I mean, when I was in school you had third language, which you had to- 

[00:09:45] Manisha: You had a second language. No, English, Hindi, and then... 

[00:09:48] Abhinandan: No, no, we had a third language. 

[00:09:49] Manisha: You had a 

[00:09:49] Abhinandan: third language? Third language, but it wasn't at board level.

[00:09:52] Abhinandan: Uh, 'til the... You could take it later, but it was compulsory 'til class eight. 

[00:09:58] Manisha: The India-Africa Summit that [00:10:00] was supposed to take place in New Delhi next week has now been postponed due to the Ebola outbreak in parts of Africa. The FBI said it had shut down a call center operating in India that allegedly targeted hundreds of elderly Americans through fake tech support scams, cheating them out of millions of dollars.

[00:10:14] Abhinandan: More jobs lost. Modiji, Hindi language], please tell your friend that if he can, you know, rip off the American Hindi language] I don't know whether you saw what he did with the, this new fund where his justice department sued- His, uh, [00:10:30] tax department got $1.8 billion of slush funds, which he can give to anyone he wants, and he said he will give it as damages to those who stormed the Capitol.

[00:10:39] Manisha: Huh? 

[00:10:40] Abhinandan: It's so brazen there. Yeah, so 

[00:10:41] Manisha: if he can do it, then why can't we do 

[00:10:42] Abhinandan: it? Modi Ji, you are boli ki, we should also be allowed to, you know, rip off Americans and create jobs. 

[00:10:47] Manisha: Israel's National Security Minister is facing criticism both at home and abroad after releasing videos mocking detained Gaza flotilla activists.

[00:10:56] Manisha: The clips drew sharp rebuke from Benjamin Netanyahu and sparked [00:11:00] international backlash over the treatment of the detainees. Giorgia Meloni called the treatment of the protesters intolerable and said it violated human dignity. She was also in the headlines in India for Melody. 

[00:11:11] Abhinandan: Hmm. We 

[00:11:11] Manisha: can discuss that also.

[00:11:14] Manisha: Britain's foreign secretary said, uh, she was truly appalled by the footage, adding it violated the most basic standards of respect and dignity. 

[00:11:22] Abhinandan: Yeah, so I was just... We shall get into the discussion, and we'll start with the U- [00:11:30] the Indian Prime Minister's five nation tour, purpose, what it achieved, et cetera.

[00:11:36] Abhinandan: But on this, I mean, I was, A, for a change, anything that you say about Israel is an antisemitic, antisemitic. You know, that's become the- 

[00:11:44] Helley Video: Hmm ... 

[00:11:45] Abhinandan: kuchhi bolo, antisemitic. Uh- Of course, the video is disgusting. A cabinet minister put that out is disgusting, and there have been a few countries that have asked for him to be sanctioned.

[00:11:59] Abhinandan: [00:12:00] Hmm. Uh, but I was just saying that we keep talking about double standards, uh, and there are often double standards, but this is also an example of the double standards that work in India's favor. Some Indian members, uh, who are in positions of power, who are ministers at the state level or the cabinet level, have tweeted out far more- Hmm

[00:12:22] Abhinandan: disgusting videos, but it doesn't become an international event and say they should be sanctioned. You fly under the radar because, guys, [00:12:30] India doesn't really matter in the larger context. You know, we keep saying that we are... And that's why they get away with it. If this is a standard for a sanction, Himanta Biswa Sarma should be sanctioned.

[00:12:40] Abhinandan: I'm sure he has friends and family who go abroad. So double standards also sometimes work in our favor. You know? Hi, Suhasini is here. Welcome, Suhasini Haider- Hi ... joins us after her two nation, three nation, one nation, or five nation tour, Suhasini? 

[00:12:57] Suhasini: I only went to one nation. 

[00:12:59] Abhinandan: Oh, [00:13:00] damn. So Suhasini, as you all know, is an indepen- India, is an Indian journalist and foreign affairs expert.

[00:13:06] Abhinandan: She's serving as the diplomatic affairs editor at The Hindu. She, in the past, had a show, Prime Time, on CNN-IBN, and she has also worked with CNN International. So thank you for joining us, and of course Anand is here with us as well. Uh, you know, we're just gonna get into the entire foreign trip and the fallout, which no one saw coming, with that young journalist being attacked and praised both.[00:13:30] 

[00:13:30] Abhinandan: But I was just saying the, uh, internal security minister of Israel who put out that horrible video of, with the flotilla activists, and in fact some videos have emerged of how they were treated in prison. They have bruise marks, et cetera. The rebuke it got from within and from Italy, from Britain, there may be sanctions apparently.

[00:13:50] Abhinandan: I think Italy's already planned to sanction him. I'm just saying that, you know, double standards can work in India's favor as well. There are Indian ministers, whether at the [00:14:00] state level or the national level, who in the past have tweeted stuff that is far worse. It may not be an actual, you know, beating up a person, but stuff that is equally objectionable.

[00:14:10] Abhinandan: But it doesn't get any international... I mean, the five nations don't say what is happening. This is because it's Israel and Gaza, everyone's pounced on it. So one could say they're double standards both ways, right? Sometimes our people put out stuff, but no one really cares because it's not such an international event.

[00:14:27] Abhinandan: It's just the act doesn't matter, the context matters, right, [00:14:30] before we jump onto and say everything is a double standard. 

[00:14:33] Suhasini: Do you know, I have to agree. And, and the truth is this is, this is worldwide. How we see other people is also there is a double standard. Mm. We will accept certain things, uh, for the US president to say about us, which we will not accept from some other country.

[00:14:48] Suhasini: Right. Mm. I... It's, it's not i- it's not as if double standards don't exist. Mm. Uh, I think we have to focus on the, um, on, uh, on actually the conversation within the [00:15:00] country, um, rather than, uh, you know, just always talking about, you know, they said this to us, they said... Yeah, there are lots of indexes out there.

[00:15:09] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:15:10] Suhasini: Um, a- and as you pointed out, uh, and I think, uh, my, uh, uh, our, uh, my colleague, uh, Varghese George has written in The Hindu today, if you want to reject the, uh, RSF Media Freedom Index, for example, also, uh, reject the ease of doing business ranking getting better. You know? Yeah. [00:15:30] Uh, reject, uh, international honors that you get in, in various countries.

[00:15:35] Suhasini: So I, I think it's, it's, it's, uh, these things have to be just taken in that moment. You say, "Okay, this is, this is what has come out," and, uh, not essentially expect that there's going to be some grand global standard. 

[00:15:49] Helley Video: Right. 

[00:15:49] Suhasini: Uh, where there is a global standard, if you ask me, is on the construct of democracy, uh, a modern construct, a construct of, uh, what is human rights, what [00:16:00] is child rights.

[00:16:01] Suhasini: Mm. And yes, not every country, like you've given the Is- Israel example, actually follows these, adheres to these, but we all know what they are. 

[00:16:09] Abhinandan: Manisha, you have a view on this? 

[00:16:11] Manisha: No, I mean- Have you 

[00:16:12] Abhinandan: seen the video by the way? 

[00:16:13] Manisha: Yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, I agree with Swasti in that sense that I don't even look at the international order to...

[00:16:22] Manisha: Because if you look at double standards, for example, the US will always-- elections in Pakistan are always free and fair. There'll be no statement [00:16:30] issued on that. But elections in Bangladesh always become like this hyped up thing. We are keeping a watch, we are seeing who's winning. So there is a double standard, but our own problems, I think, have to be sorted out within, and I have no expectation from America to even when during Biden's time where there would be like stray comments on press freedom or whatever, they did make a lot of accommodations with Modi in terms of taking questions from the press.

[00:16:53] Manisha: They were okay looking away at a lot of things. So problems with our own politics in terms of how our ministers talk about our [00:17:00] minority, uh, minorities in the country, or the kind of vile utterances that we've seen over the last decade especially, those things I think have to be sorted here. No foreign power can call us out on it.

[00:17:10] Abhinandan: Anand, you have a view on it? 

[00:17:11] Anand: No, I think, uh, this, uh, has an assumption that there is a global order and it is, uh, a fantasy of the globalism that, uh, there should be an uniform standard. This is not, means international order is, is still a collection of national orders. 

[00:17:27] Helley Video: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:27] Anand: So we are, uh, [00:17:30] a system of nations and, uh, people who think that they are more globalist in their nature are a citizen of nowhere.

[00:17:39] Anand: A citizen of the world is a citizen of nowhere. 

[00:17:41] Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:42] Anand: So, uh, mm, I think, uh, uh, that's more of a moralist posturing than rooted in realities. 

[00:17:50] Abhinandan: Right. So now let's get into the discussion. Before that, just wanna remind everybody, we have two new reports that I would highly recommend you read. One is by my former boss, [00:18:00] Alpana Kishor, when I was at News Track, Mission Vatican in Kashi: The Battle Between Ideology and Faith.

[00:18:05] Abhinandan: It is not paywalled, it is just behind a login. Uh, so, um, and I'll be very transparent, it's behind a login so we can get your e-email ID and try to convince you to subscribe, 'cause it's not so easy to do it in the first shot. So do read it. It is, as usual, Alpana was one of the finest writers we had in News Track, uh, done by her, and tells you a lot about our [00:18:30] ruling dispensations, view of history, culture, aesthetic, everything.

[00:18:36] Abhinandan: By the way, this week also Nirman Bhavan came down, right? I don't know whether you saw that aerial picture. 

[00:18:40] Helley Video: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:41] Abhinandan: Uh, and the second is A Trail of Grief, Little Accountability: The Marion Biotech Story after 68 Children's Death. 

[00:18:50] Helley Video: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:50] Abhinandan: This is a really disturbing story, uh, of the impunity and the complete lack of respect to life that- [00:19:00] goes with our regular, our global standard, Indian global standard of what matters, what doesn't.

[00:19:06] Abhinandan: This is behind the paywall, Manisha? 

[00:19:08] Manisha: No, this is not behind the paywall. 

[00:19:09] Abhinandan: It's not behind the paywall. So do check out both these stories. And this week on South Central, because now we have two podcasts with our, you know, partner organization, The News Minute. The News Minute this week will be discussing TVK's online army and the Special Intensive Revision, SIR.

[00:19:25] Abhinandan: So you can tune into South Central this week to get more on that. [00:19:30] On Hafta, we'll be discussing press freedom triggered by what happened in Norway and the foreign trip. So Suhasini, uh- Hmm ... let's start with, uh, h- how was, um- Otherwise, the tour was there before we get into what should have been a distraction has become the main story.

[00:19:51] Abhinandan: Mm. What, what are the other things on the agenda? What was achieved? What was not achieved? Norway has a lot of energy, right? Any chance they're giving us any oil? 

[00:19:59] Suhasini: Uh, you know, [00:20:00] not, uh, as a result of this trip, we didn't hear any announcements on that. Norway right now is, uh, the largest supplier to Europe. 

[00:20:09] Abhinandan: Mm.

[00:20:09] Suhasini: Uh, and, uh, they... A- and they are. They have a huge, uh, oil reserves, but they don't... They haven't necessarily decided to, um, sell to us or nor have we asked because, you know, the pricing of these things. Um, uh, I think the trip was threefold. Uh, one was a kind of makeup for last year because [00:20:30] this particular trip was to have happened a year ago, last May, uh, and had to be put off, uh, between, uh, Pahalgam terror attack and, and, uh, the border India-Pakistan conflict with Operation Sindoor.

[00:20:43] Suhasini: Um, so that was the first, that this was, uh, a makeup. Uh, Prime Minister Modi was supposed to go to Oslo at that time and, uh, and, uh, you know, meet with the Nordic leaders at Nordic-India Summit, uh, as well as the Netherlands trip. The second part, I think, [00:21:00] is about, uh, this kind of, uh, idea in, you know, in the world that everyone's diversifying.

[00:21:07] Suhasini: Uh, India and Europe are definitely the flavor of this year. It began with, uh, the German chancellor coming. We've had other leaders from Europe coming to India in this first half of the year. Um, the India-EU, European Union, FTA being announced in January. It's still to be ratified and signed. Um, so, uh, there's been a very big focus on [00:21:30] Europe.

[00:21:30] Suhasini: Pri- uh, I think External Affairs Minister Jaishankar has traveled to eight or 10 European countries just, uh, this year. Prime Minister Modi is going... has gone now to this four nation in Europe plus UAE trip. Uh, he's going back in June to Europe for the G7 in France. I think he's going to Slovakia as well, uh, and maybe another European country.

[00:21:51] Suhasini: Uh, and then he's expected to go later in the year to Brussels when this FTA is, uh, actually ready to be signed. Uh, so that's the [00:22:00] second part, I think, of this visit. The third is obviously, uh, that, uh, the government was looking for some, uh... I, I mean, I think they were looking to show that this was a visit to, uh, uh, uh, seek new sources of oil given what's happened in the Hormuz Strait.

[00:22:18] Suhasini: So that was played up. I mean, in the UAE visit, for example, they talk, talked about, uh, strategic petroleum reserves of the UAE up to, um, I've forgotten the exact figure, but I think- Yeah ... it was 30 [00:22:30] billion, uh, 30 million tons or something, which will be stored in India. Um, uh, I, I mean, not to be the cynic here, but we had exactly the same agreement with, uh, the Saudis about 10 years ago Uh, they also said we, we, Aramco will keep its strategic petroleum reserves in India.

[00:22:47] Suhasini: But at the end of the day, you know, what it requires is infrastructure in India. Mm. It needs those reserves to be built. Mm. So eventually only I think some three million tons were kept someone, somewhere in Karnataka. Um, but it was, it was very [00:23:00] much about the optics of the prime minister going out there and looking for investment, looking for trade, looking for oil as well.

[00:23:06] Abhinandan: Well, it is always about optics, um- Mm 

[00:23:08] Suhasini: Oh, renewable energy as well, sorry. That's what the Nordics are known for. 

[00:23:12] Abhinandan: Um, on this foreign trip, anything, Manisha, that you read, saw, observed, uh, on- 

[00:23:18] Manisha: I think couple of things. One is right after the, uh, speech asking Indians to not buy gold, he went... And not do foreign trips- 

[00:23:27] NDTV clip: Mm

[00:23:28] Manisha: he was there. And, [00:23:30] uh, the one address that he did in the Netherlands at Hague with, uh, NRIs- 

[00:23:35] NDTV clip: Mm ... 

[00:23:35] Manisha: where he said that this is the decade of destruction and crisis, and we had COVID, and basically bracing... I don't know why these conversations we're not having in our own country where he's ho- one hopes he gives a press conference and says all this, but even to our own people, it's always that we, we're doing so well, we're gonna do this and that.

[00:23:54] Manisha: But to NRIs you're saying that all, there could be, like, extreme poverty. All the gains of the [00:24:00] last decade will be lost. What gains we made and what we lose, I don't know because- Hmm ... I think today Surjit Bhalla has written a column in the- 

[00:24:08] Abhinandan: Express ... 

[00:24:08] Manisha: Express saying that you're winning elections but you're losing the economy.

[00:24:11] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:24:12] Manisha: So these utterances abroad which are stark, dire, versus what we hear here is just, you know, bizarre. And secondly, I think the whole, um, Norwegian journalist thing- 

[00:24:25] Abhinandan: Yeah, we'll discuss that 'cause- It's really kind of- ... Swasni was in the room, I'd like to hear about that. Yeah But- 

[00:24:29] Manisha: To me that was [00:24:30] really 

[00:24:30] Abhinandan: striking

[00:24:30] Abhinandan: other than that, what do you make of this address at the Hague and, uh, any gains from this trip of Modi after telling us not to travel? 

[00:24:38] Anand: No, I, um, the gains we made in the last decade, I think he, he made that in a global context. 

[00:24:44] Abhinandan: Hmm. 

[00:24:45] Anand: That, uh, the, mm, say the march of the global economy led to some alleviation of global poverty.

[00:24:52] Anand: Hmm. So that, I think his context was global there, not Indian. 

[00:24:56] Abhinandan: Hmm. 

[00:24:57] Anand: And, uh, um, that would be, uh, [00:25:00] somehow, mm, negated by the crisises which are c- cropping up after two, three years, like after COVID this. So that was it. So I, I think, uh, um, some of the, these visits, uh, except one I think were pre-planned, so he had to take it.

[00:25:19] Anand: Hmm. Means, uh, the, mm, the trips are, uh- 

[00:25:24] Abhinandan: Scheduled way 

[00:25:25] Anand: before ... scheduled earlier, so, uh, as the head of, uh, the government, he had to [00:25:30] go. So I think, uh, that, uh, i- if something, uh, of a, say, very, mm, a scale of national crisis or emergency was there, which pro-... uh, in government's estimate, this is not, means the, mm, energy crisis that we are going through.

[00:25:48] Anand: Hmm. So otherwise, the schedule was kept. 

[00:25:52] Abhinandan: Right. So of course, whether the crisis or not depends on who you speak with. I've been spending a lot of time speaking with investors, big [00:26:00] and small, uh, people in all sorts of organizations, including big tech, high up people in the policy space They are not saying very good things, so I don't know what we're all bracing for.

[00:26:13] Helley Video: Hmm. 

[00:26:14] Abhinandan: But of course, our government will tell us nothing. But I also think it's not that they don't tell us anything, I think generally Modi doesn't understand anything. He has no idea what's gonna happen. I j- you know, that, that, uh, Iron Man film where they had this guy called the... [00:26:30] Which is played by Ben Kingsley.

[00:26:31] Abhinandan: He looks like a very scary villain. 

[00:26:34] Manisha: Hmm. 

[00:26:35] Abhinandan: But actually he doesn't know anything what's happening. So, uh, but yeah, let's get to the bit of what happened to this young journalist, whose name I always seem to mispronounce. You were in the room, Suhasini, what happened? And then we can get into the appropriateness, inappropriateness, how it should have been asked, how we should have responded.

[00:26:56] Abhinandan: And by we, I mean a foreign... That Mr. [00:27:00] Thomas. Uh, yeah, so what, what happened exactly? 

[00:27:04] Suhasini: So I, I mean, I, I... All I know is, uh, there was this idea of a press statement. You know, we have so normalized in the Indian media this idea that the prime minister doesn't take, uh, uh, questions, uh, unscripted questions. That, to be honest, we didn't really, you know, we didn't clock how big a deal it was for- Other countries

[00:27:24] Suhasini: uh, Europeans. 

[00:27:25] Helley Video: Mm. 

[00:27:25] Suhasini: Um, so there was already a preamble. In Netherlands, for example, [00:27:30] the MEA was asked, they didn't accost the prime minister, but, uh, they accosted the MEA- Mm ... and said, "Why does he not take questions?" 

[00:27:37] Helley Video: Mm. 

[00:27:37] Suhasini: Uh, at one point, um, uh, you know, uh, their prime minister, Rob Jetten, had spoken to his media.

[00:27:43] Suhasini: Because, you know, this is the thing that one has to remember, that Prime Minister Modi, uh, walks off without answering questions. But their prime minister did But the people he's standing with have to answer because their press is pretty tough. 

[00:27:54] Helley Video: Hmm. 

[00:27:54] Suhasini: And, um, so Rob Jetten went, uh, and spoke in the gov- house.

[00:27:58] Suhasini: He spoke to journalists and he [00:28:00] said that, "I raised concerns about, uh, human rights in India, or minority rights in particular-" Hmm ... and press freedoms in India." Uh, and these questions were put then to the MEA. Uh, the MEA's, uh, uh, uh, secretary said, um, uh, you know, "These were not raised in any, uh, questions with us."

[00:28:17] Suhasini: And then gave that original remark where he said, "These questions are posed by people who are ignorant about India." 

[00:28:23] Manisha: Hmm. 

[00:28:24] Suhasini: And, uh, to that, another journalist said, "But m- my colleague is [00:28:30] not posing the question to you. My colleague and I are asking, how do you respond to our prime minister posing the question?

[00:28:36] Suhasini: Are you saying our prime minister is ignorant?" 

[00:28:38] Abhinandan: Oh, they asked that? That 

[00:28:39] Suhasini: was put up? It's all there. The transcript is there. Right. Hmm. Um, anyway, so that was the preamble to this visit. The next day in Sweden, there was no such thing, there was no questions being asked. But, uh, the photographs of, uh, uh, you know, there was Ursula von der Leyen, there was this, uh, Swedish Prime Minister, Kristofs- Kristofferson I think, [00:29:00] and, uh, there was, um- Prime Minister Modi.

[00:29:03] Suhasini: And the photograph that they put out was, uh, very starkly of a teleprompter in front of Prime Minister Modi- Mm ... almost eclipsing his face. 

[00:29:12] Manisha: Yeah. 

[00:29:12] Suhasini: Um, uh, now that again was something new firstly for, for those journalists because they were like, "What is a teleprompter doing here even?" Um- And, you know, it's not one teleprompter, there are two.

[00:29:24] Suhasini: And they're like- Mm ... tree trunks. It's very difficult to avoid them. Uh, then we [00:29:30] come to Norway. So this was the third leg of his visit, and we were abroad. I should, uh, uh, uh, I should be clear, we were invited by the Norwegian government. 

[00:29:40] Helley Video: Mm. 

[00:29:40] Suhasini: Uh, normally, uh, I, uh, we c- we travel to cover the prime minister, but in a lot of places, if I go just as an independent journalist or from a, a non-government newspaper, um, we're considered non-official media, non-accredited, so you don't get access.

[00:29:56] Suhasini: Mm. So the only way really to cover a prime ministerial visit, [00:30:00] other visits you can figure out for yourself, but a prime ministerial visit, the only way to cover it is if that government invites you. 

[00:30:06] Abhinandan: So either our government or that government, that's the only way to do it, right? Mm. 

[00:30:10] Suhasini: Well, because of the lack of access.

[00:30:11] Suhasini: And sure- Yeah ... you'll even do that. You'll go to certain... Like China, I think everybody sends a journalist. Mm. Um, US, everybody sends a journalist. Moscow, uh, we went completely on our own, but, uh, with the understanding that the Russians would give us accreditation. Mm. But we didn't actually get access [00:30:30] in that visit, uh, to anything further than, uh, the media center.

[00:30:34] Song: Right 

[00:30:34] Suhasini: But it was to be in Moscow at that time. So every, every trip the Prime Minister takes, and he takes several, you have to judge for yourself what is the cost benefit analysis and how you can cover it best. Because a lot of times all the information is available sitting in Delhi. Mm. Um, you know, the press conferences of the MEA are live, the events are all live.

[00:30:53] Suhasini: The Prime Minister's makes only scripted remarks, and those come on a s- uh, uh, in, you know, in your [00:31:00] inbox. Um, so, uh, so we had gone there, um, uh, to cover, uh, this press conference. And when we walked in, um, you know, fair enough there were those two podiums and then there were the two, uh, teleprompters there.

[00:31:13] Suhasini: And, um, uh, the journalists there, and it wasn't just Hella, the young girl who asked the question, but there were other, uh, Norwegian journalists in the same row as us, and they certainly asked me at the beginning, "Did you know that there's not going to be any questions?" So I said, "Actually, there never is, uh, [00:31:30] questions."

[00:31:30] Suhasini: It's normal. 

[00:31:30] Abhinandan: Welcome to the party. Uh- ... 

[00:31:32] Suhasini: I was a bit surprised that they were surprised. Um, and, uh, then, uh, they said, "But you've just come with him. Uh, didn't you ask him any que- " I said, "I didn't ... 'Cause he's come. I, I mean, we don't, you know, it, it, we have forgotten what life was, uh, uh, uh, you know, um, uh, what is the word?

[00:31:50] Suhasini: Uh- Pre- 2014. Pre. Pre. Yeah. Um. Mm. Yeah. Uh, so I mean, it, it was ... So I, I, so I said, "Yeah, we, we didn't, uh, come with him. We've come ... [00:32:00] In fact, we've been invited by your government." And they kept asking me again and again, "But how does he not answer questions? Because our prime minister has to answer questions." So I said, "Fine, but, you know, we'll see if your pr- uh, if, if

[00:32:13] Suhasini: It'll be very awkward if, you know, one leader is not taking questions, one leader is taking questions." So I said, "We'll see how this goes." And then we had this where both made press statements and then they walked off the stage. As they were walking off the stage, this young girl sprung up and said what I think is, [00:32:30] is not a, is

[00:32:30] Suhasini: It sounds very patronizing that, "Why doesn't India, uh, take questions from the world's freest press?" Mm. Or whatever. Thank you.

[00:32:47] Helley Video: Prime Minister Modi, why don't you take some questions from the freest press in the world?

[00:32:55] Suhasini: Uh, and she kept making this point that you're 157th and we're one on the list kind of thing. [00:33:00] And she went behind him, which again, we never think of doing, you know? Mm. Once a prime minister's left the room, who's gonna run behind him? She wasn't... You know, she nearly got to the left, and you've seen the video because she's- Yeah

[00:33:11] Suhasini: actually taking the video She came back and she said, uh, "Well, you know, I'm really surprised your prime minister didn't take questions, but our prime minister will take questions." I said, "No, but he didn't. He just left." Uh, she said, "He's coming back." And sure enough, within two minutes of seeing off Prime Minister Modi- He came back?

[00:33:29] Suhasini: uh, [00:33:30] Prime Minister Støre c- came back into the room, and he spoke to the Norwegian press. He didn't speak to the Indian press. So, uh, he gave, uh, interviews in Norwegian, uh, to, I think, three journalists who were over there, and Hella also spoke to him. She then came back, and she said... And that's the second tweet, I think the video of which- Mm

[00:33:51] Suhasini: you probably have seen. And she said to one of my colleagues who had also come from India, um, uh, she had said, "Now you [00:34:00] ask, uh, Prime Minister Støre a question." And, and she got ready to film that. Uh, and that's the voice you hear on that video saying, "Prime Minister Støre, will you not give an interview to the Indian journalists and show them how it is done in Norway?"

[00:34:17] Suhasini: Sorry. 

[00:34:17] Helley Video: No, it's the prime minister. Just one. One minute, sir. Take a picture. Why don't you take a few questions from the Indian reporters and show them how we do it here [00:34:30] in Norway? Yes. 

[00:34:31] Suhasini: Again- Really? ... I mean, uh, it's absolutely the patronizing. Oh. But, um, uh, but at that point, he came. He... My colleague put out his hand, and, uh, and he shook his hand, but he walked on.

[00:34:43] Suhasini: And then I tried to ask a question because, you know, that's what journalists do. Mm. If somebody's in front of you, you'll ask the question. Mm. So I tried to ask a question, and he smiled at me, and he walked off. But, um, that was, uh, that was the first event. There was a next event. Uh, his press people said to me, "He's really, uh, running late, and [00:35:00] he's gotta get to that next event," which is the business- Mm

[00:35:02] Suhasini: uh, summit. Or, I think first they were going for that award at the palace for Prime Minister Modi, and then they were gonna come to the business summit. So we had to leave to the business summit. At the business summit, even before the leaders had come, uh, his, uh, uh, the Prime Minister of Norway's press team got i- in touch with us and said he would really like to speak to the Indian media.

[00:35:22] Suhasini: So they told us where we should, uh, wait, and, uh, they brought him to us. And then, uh, he took, I think there were [00:35:30] five of us, and they, he took five questions from all of us and then did a little bit of chatting off the record as well. Uh, the next, uh, the, the next... The scene then changes to the Indian, uh, um, official media center in the hotel where Prime Minister Modi was staying and, uh, the MEA press conference.

[00:35:48] Suhasini: Now, I wanna make the point that there was seven hours of something between that first- 

[00:35:55] Helley Video: Mm ... 

[00:35:55] Suhasini: you know, Hella standing up and asking that question and, uh, the [00:36:00] MEA briefing. And presumably, the prime minister's handlers and the MEA's, uh, uh, you know- Sort of senior officials had had- Mm ... enough time to think about what their response would be because- Yeah

[00:36:13] Suhasini: in between all of this, and please stop me when I bore you, but- Mm ... in between all of this, uh, Hela's tweets had gone out- Right ... and caused all this outrage. Yeah. And the Indian Embassy in, uh, Oslo responded. 

[00:36:25] Manisha: Yeah, 

[00:36:26] Suhasini: they retweeted it saying, "Come." And, and said, "Please come to our MEA press conference." [00:36:30] Mm. And she wrote and said, "I'm already registered, so I'll be there."

[00:36:32] Suhasini: So like, they had a good five, six hours to prepare for what their response would be, and they chose the response that they gave. I also wanna make the point that I- Imagine ... I, I asked- The 

[00:36:44] Abhinandan: best minds who've cracked UPSC came up with that response. Mm. 

[00:36:48] Suhasini: I, I, uh, uh, I s- I, I actually asked a question. Uh, one of my questions was about what Mr.

[00:36:54] Suhasini: Støre had said on the differences. He said India and, uh, Norway don't see eye to eye on many issues. [00:37:00] So I asked the MEA, "What do you read that differences as? Is it about Russia? Is it about press freedoms? What is it about?" And my second question was that you have seen criticism in Netherlands and now in Norway to the fact that Prime Minister Modi is not answering questions, uh, at a press conference.

[00:37:19] Suhasini: Um, uh, have any of your host countries requested Prime Minister Modi to answer questions? And, um, are you re- thinking of revising your [00:37:30] policy? Mm. Because my point was if your host is not pushing it- 

[00:37:34] Song: Right ... 

[00:37:34] Suhasini: then, you know, Norway can keep talking about freedom and whatever, but they're not also making a big deal- Yeah

[00:37:39] Suhasini: you're not answering questions. Um, so then straight after I asked the question came Hela's second question, which was fairly... I mean, it was vague. 

[00:37:48] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:37:49] Suhasini: Uh, but she was obviously by then had, you know, she'd, uh, been trolled on Twitter and she was very worked up and- Her family, all 

[00:37:54] Abhinandan: sorts of threats. Usual what, what, 

[00:37:56] Suhasini: uh, IT cells are so famous for the world over All, all that happens, you know, doxing of photos on [00:38:00] vacation.

[00:38:00] Suhasini: Yeah. Yeah. Look. Uh, it's all aimed in a certain way- Yeah ... and then, you know, you're this agent, that agent. I mean, you know, I, uh, what really came through for me was how much we have normalized this behavior. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:38:12] Abhinandan: exactly. It is so alien to people who are not from here, journalists, they're, like, shocked 

[00:38:16] Suhasini: at the kind of barrage.

[00:38:17] Suhasini: And, and I'm like, I, I get called, uh, 10 times worse things on an hourly basis, and, uh, it's- Yeah ... it's not something that you can con- continue to engage with, but she was. You could see in those first few hours she was engaging. Yeah, she tried, yeah. And her follower [00:38:30] list was just climbing up. Anyway, not to, not to put a fine, uh, word on it and, you know, I'm not...

[00:38:35] Suhasini: Uh, I'm a journalist, she's a journalist, she can defend herself, and I think she has. Uh, but she asked this very vague question, like why- Human rights ... why should we trust you? Yeah. And, uh, what do you have to say about human rights? Like, you know, that, that wasn't exactly a specific question to answer to. So I would think it would be even easier for the MEA to have a pro forma response.

[00:38:56] Suhasini: Yeah. Mm. India stands by its record on human rights. Sure. Uh, India has nothing to be [00:39:00] afraid of. The only surviving 

[00:39:00] Abhinandan: democracy. On the top of my head, I can come up with things- Yeah, 

[00:39:03] Suhasini: yeah ... in the subcontinent, you know? So you, you say those things, you get out of it, and you say- And you- ... "Uh, let's move on to the next question now," right?

[00:39:09] Suhasini: Yeah, rather 

[00:39:09] Abhinandan: than this outrage by this, you know, very cute-looking fellow who's- C 

[00:39:14] Manisha: B George ... 

[00:39:14] Abhinandan: doesn't do really... Anyway. But, but, I 

[00:39:17] Suhasini: mean- No, I mean, he was obviously incensed by the, the tone that she employed, and she didn't just have a tone. She said, "No, you've got to answer me right now because I have counter questions for you."

[00:39:28] Suhasini: Sure. "And otherwise you will just get away by [00:39:30] making an answer." Uh, and then it just became this kind of You know, this diatribe follow. Yes. So the rest of it everyone has seen on the- Of course, this- ... on, uh, uh, uh, on, uh, uh, live television or otherwise. So I won't go into, uh, the entire response, but we all know 18 minutes and 46 seconds was one single train of thought.

[00:39:49] Suhasini: Yeah. 

[00:39:49] Abhinandan: And then there was a bunch of prime time, you know, debates around this, discussions around this, and she appeared on few of them. But, you know, I just want to go around the panel once. The one point I do wanna make, and I hope this clip goes on social [00:40:00] media, our producer puts it, I saw this young anchor at NDTV interviewing, uh, Hela, and- 

[00:40:06] Manisha: I saw the whole 

[00:40:06] Abhinandan: interview

[00:40:06] Abhinandan: she was ... I mean, A, I felt bad for that girl because clearly Rahul Kamal or whoever has put her there or whatever because- 

[00:40:13] NDTV clip: Was it designed to go viral from the very beginning? Was it meant to serve the theatrics as being the primary goal? In fact, that publication, which was founded in 1884, actually has deep linkages to the Norwegian Labor Party.

[00:40:28] NDTV clip: In fact, it was a [00:40:30] mouthpiece of the Norwegian Labor Party. Enjoying Indian curries and doing yoga doesn't qualify as knowing India. Have you been to India? 

[00:40:37] Abhinandan: At least this Norwegian journalist had the guts to come on your show. Tell your boss, Rahul Kamal Who is so cowardly he does not want to talk 'cause they will have no...

[00:40:50] Abhinandan: Arnab, Navika, at the media we've called all these people. A few of them have said yes, and later called me and say, "Our management has said we cannot come." So, [00:41:00] you know, children, before you come on prime time and start yapping away, tell your bosses if they have the guts or the courage that these young journalists show, why don't you come and answer questions?

[00:41:13] Abhinandan: No journalist in India does. In fact, Swastik you should have taken a cue from our journalists. When the Norwegian journalist started questioning, you should've just walked off. «Hamne to yahi seekha hai.» I'm not gonna answer your questions. But what do you make of this? So- And of course, what we should be so proud of is that every foreign journalist or [00:41:30] writer knows, you know, it'll be liable if I say who is responsible, but we all know who organizes this.

[00:41:38] Abhinandan: And off the record, someone from a very prominent party in India has also told me this is how they organize it. The most vile, disgusting threats, including the kind of language used by a gentleman, I won't call him a gentleman, and, and a fire should be registered against him, to the time of this recording it has not, who says far worse stuff.

[00:41:59] Abhinandan: They're all [00:42:00] favorites of our ruling party. So that is what has made us famous. Hmm. Yeah. 

[00:42:05] Suhasini: But, you know, Abhinandan, I just w- I wanna make that differentiation because it's about who you should respond to. And half the problem is, uh, that we, we, we, we get into debates where we take the focus away. So the focus became...

[00:42:21] Suhasini: I didn't watch these shows that you were speaking about in India 'cause I was there. But, uh, but you know, the focus becomes about that journalist. Who is she? What is her [00:42:30] background? You remember the Wall Street journalist who asked that- Hmm. Yeah ... one question about minority rights- In the US, yeah. Yeah ... in, uh, in Washington.

[00:42:36] Suhasini: And in no time at all, who she was, who she- Yeah ... represented, uh, all of that came out, right? Um, what was her background, and of course, this is her religion, and this is where she, her parents came from, all of that Uh, in this Hella case we see the same. Where does she go on vacation? What is the left-wing, uh, journal that she, uh, represents?

[00:42:56] Suhasini: W- where, where was she before this? Uh, [00:43:00] you know, so that kind of thing is actually taking the focus away and, and all these, uh, channels you're talking about here who make her the focus by interviewing her and all the rest, do you, do you expect anyone in India to get that kind of, uh, platform if they were going to be critical- 

[00:43:19] Helley Video: Mm

[00:43:19] Suhasini: uh, without there being some other reason for it? Right. The focus is on her, on the, on the journalist because they don't want the focus to be on the basic question. So why [00:43:30] doesn't your prime minister take- Take questions ... unscripted questions? Exactly. And there was an, there was a s- uh, an interview that Prime Minister Modi gave to India Today in which he said two or three things, and there was no pushback to them.

[00:43:41] Suhasini: Mm. He said, uh, "The fact is that journalists just have opinions." 

[00:43:46] Manisha: Mm. 

[00:43:46] Suhasini: And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's very much about who the journalist is today. Y- you know, so he made it also about let's go find who the journalist is. It's not about what the question is. Mm. 

[00:43:58] Manisha: Yeah. 

[00:43:59] Suhasini: It's about who is [00:44:00] the journalist- And all these top guys

[00:44:01] Suhasini: what 

[00:44:01] Manisha: is their background? 

[00:44:02] Suhasini: Yeah. Uh, Anjana, Rahul Kavule. And I find, I find this debate in India too has become about who is the journalist? Mm. How dare Norway say this? Who is the freedom index? 

[00:44:10] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:44:10] Suhasini: It's not about her question or, uh- Yeah ... about, uh, the freedom- Of the, the prime minister ... it is about the fact, it is about the question.

[00:44:17] Suhasini: You can a- Take a question ... answer it differently. You can say there's no reason Xi Jinping doesn't take, uh, unscripted questions. Yeah. Uh, um, there are so many leaders in the world I can mention who don't take unscripted questions. Putin actually does. Mm. Uh, but [00:44:30] there's a different kind of worry over there on press freedom.

[00:44:33] Suhasini: My point is, you can answer that question in 30 ways, but that is the question. 

[00:44:37] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:44:37] Suhasini: It is not who is this, what is that? Should we b- uh, respond to this very patronizing racist idea that only Anglo-Saxon countries, uh, think that they can ask these questions? Uh, 说话 basically 说

[00:44:47] Abhinandan: 话 racism 说话. This is like, uh, if you want to criticize 

[00:44:50] Suhasini: Israel, antisemitic over there.

[00:44:51] Suhasini: And, you know, and wrap ourselves in the national flag. This is not about that. And so- Yeah ... I, I mean, I just, I, uh, I agree with a lot of what you guys were saying, but again, I just [00:45:00] think we have to take the focus away and have the conversation within India about why it is okay to not have, uh, unscripted press conferences- We've, we've, we've-

[00:45:08] Suhasini: meet people- 

[00:45:09] Abhinandan: We've done 

[00:45:09] Suhasini: that- ... journalists ... 

[00:45:10] Abhinandan: forever, so Arseny- Because it, because 

[00:45:11] Suhasini: that is our job. 

[00:45:12] Abhinandan: I mean, the, it's- I wrote a f- I, I wrote a full piece on this in 2014 when- Yes ... the prime minister b- canceled a scheduled event where already money had been spent and a set worth eight lakhs put up. 

[00:45:24] Manisha: Wow, 

[00:45:24] Abhinandan: okay. So we've been trying since 2014.

[00:45:26] Abhinandan: But yeah, Vanisha, you were saying. 

[00:45:28] Manisha: So, uh, couple of things. One [00:45:30] on this Sibi Matthew gentleman from the MEA. 

[00:45:33] Suhasini: George, 

[00:45:34] Manisha: yeah. Uh, George. 

[00:45:35] Suhasini: Sibi George, yeah. 

[00:45:36] Manisha: Sibi George. You felt really bad for him because he's basically doing what a Sambit Patra does every night. Like, that is, that was the brief. It is no different from what Sambit Patra, Sanju Verma, all these guys do every night on prime time.

[00:45:49] Manisha: A specific question is thrown at you, you go about yoga and COVID and this and that. And the thing is that I think why they do this, like what Suhasini was saying, makes so much sense. Why did you not prepare? You had [00:46:00] a full eight hours to really... And you know she... You've invited that journalist, journalist said, "I've come."

[00:46:05] Manisha: You know she's gonna ask a question. You could really kind of- 

[00:46:08] NDTV clip: Hmm ... 

[00:46:08] Manisha: give a response that could actually school her- Hmm ... quote, unquote. The reason why they don't do that is because they know that they can win the argument because they have the entire media t- eating out of their hands, because right after that press conference, if you saw what all our media put out to our own national audience was, a Norwegian journalist schooled, taught a lesson, shut up by the...

[00:46:29] Manisha: Like, you know, [00:46:30] MEA, that whole laser light thing. Mm. Like, she's been schooled 

[00:46:32] Suhasini: and she's been shut up. Well, there was a good one that said, uh, uh, you know, Indian journalist snubbed by the Norwegian. He doesn't take ques- And I was like, "But he did take questions." Yeah. I put out photos. 

[00:46:41] Manisha: So 

[00:46:41] Suhasini: the- I put out... I, I think Manisha and I had this conversation.

[00:46:45] Suhasini: That is- And I, and I said, "But he did take questions." Yeah. Yeah. It's just that at that moment he didn't take questions because he didn't have- Yeah, but he did later. Exactly. So the focus is- He, he did, and, a- and he also spoke to us the next day, which I'll come to in just a bit. Mm. Because I think that's also very important what he said about this.

[00:46:58] Suhasini: Sure. 

[00:46:58] Manisha: So the focus is so much [00:47:00] on controlling the headlines, which you've managed to do in India so well that that is all your focus, and you've been unable to do it with the world media, so you don't get it. Like, why are these guys asking us questions? But I think this basic understanding that the world is not gonna do or not gonna bend in the way that the Indian media has to you, large parts of it, many are free, but a large part of the loud primetime, you know, segment has completely given in to you.

[00:47:26] Manisha: In fact, right after this, there was this primetime about [00:47:30] her, this Norwegian journalist. You know, where does she come from? The NDTV journalist actually asked her that, "You know, your paper is a liberal, is a Labor Party mouthpiece, so who are you to talk about press freedom?" I'm like, "You're sitting on a channel owned by Adani."

[00:47:42] Manisha: With no sense of irony, you're s- with sternness like, "Who are you?" 

[00:47:47] Abhinandan: Mm. "

[00:47:48] Manisha: How many books have you read about India? How many have you read about Norway?" 

[00:47:51] Abhinandan: All, about 

[00:47:51] Manisha: anything. Like what... 

[00:47:52] Abhinandan: And 

[00:47:52] Manisha: that journalist was, at least she's young. Look, she's young, and I agree that she may not have the full context of India. Mm. I don't think the index is as simple.

[00:47:59] Manisha: There's [00:48:00] lots of nuances. 

[00:48:00] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[00:48:01] Manisha: I completely agree with Swasni also, the question of what about human rights is too vague. 

[00:48:05] NDTV clip: Mm. 

[00:48:05] Manisha: I mean, a journalistic question should be way more specific- Yeah ... if you wanna corner someone. But the fact is that she's come, and she said it also, "I am a small town journalist, but you underestimate the power a small town journalist can have in Norway."

[00:48:16] Manisha: Yeah. "I can get an accreditation and ask questions of the highest of authorities, and that's the power of media in our country." Instead of making that the focus, and instead of really thinking that 12 years, forget what the prime minister has done abroad, you yourself have not been [00:48:30] able to take questions from a...

[00:48:31] Manisha: He's not given you a single press conference. 

[00:48:33] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[00:48:33] Manisha: How is it okay for the last 12 years to have a government, a prime minister, who's refused to engage with you, and every time you do a one-on-one on him, he does throw a sly one at you? 

[00:48:43] Abhinandan: Yeah, he 

[00:48:44] Manisha: treats you- Like this Rahul Kawal interview. 

[00:48:45] Abhinandan: He treats you like shit, and you're happy to be treated like shit.

[00:48:48] Manisha: You know what? So Hasini was talking about Rahul Kawal, Anjana, all these guys are in a round table, and he just- Tears through them when he, when they ask a simple question He's [00:49:00] schooling you. You're okay taking all of that. And the fact that the headline is that a Norwegian journalist asked PM questions rather than the Prime Minister has not taken questions for the last 12 years.

[00:49:15] Manisha: Yeah. Just says every-- You don't need any index. 

[00:49:17] Abhinandan: Sure. 

[00:49:17] Manisha: This tells you everything- That's enough ... that you need to do, need to know about, you know, your own country and where you stand. And I think it was really something to see all of these guys, Sudhir, Anjana Like, you know, who is she? [00:49:30] Who is she to ask questions?

[00:49:31] Manisha: And this is, again, the 

[00:49:34] Abhinandan: very Indian- ... and the very Indian thing, Yeah ... mindset. And again, this comes from caste system, uh- 

[00:49:40] Manisha: Yeah ... 

[00:49:40] Abhinandan: you know, uh, completely- Hierarchical ... hierarchical society And 

[00:49:43] Suhasini: yeah. Can I just jump in- Mm ... because I, I, there was one more part to this «Ankhon Dekha Haal» that I wanted to talk about.

[00:49:49] Suhasini: Mm. So the next day, uh, there was the Nordic-India Summit, a very serious event, and there was, you know, a, a, um, a be- uh, sort of closed door, uh, meetings between Prime [00:50:00] Minister Modi and the prime ministers of Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Norway, right? Five Nordic countries. Mm. Um, now these are all countries that are used to this...

[00:50:09] Suhasini: And i- if anyone wants to please watch Borgen- Mm ... because you get a sense of how the media, uh, prime minister relationship is in these countries. Um, there's six of them standing on that podium- Mm ... and, uh, there's only one place where there are two teleprompters. So I felt like, you [00:50:30] know, firstly it was very clear what was going to come.

[00:50:33] Suhasini: Uh, Hella was at that event as well, but she didn't say anything. My guess is she probably felt discretion the better part of valor, unless her own government said, "Don't, uh- Yeah ... embarrass us on this international- Which is also possible ... uh, stage." Which is also possible. Um, but they were nervous enough, so I saw that our, uh, officials had placed themselves around her and, you know, um, uh, that kind of thing.

[00:50:57] Suhasini: But, uh, but what was interesting is what happened after. [00:51:00] So Prime Minister Modi spoke. He had a tr- uh, they all had prepared texts, two minutes each, but none of the others needed a teleprompter. He did it off the teleprompter. Um, and, uh, and then after he left, it was really interesting because all the other prime ministers stuck around.

[00:51:17] Suhasini: And, um, uh, I think the Denmark prime minister's the only exception because she's a caretaker prime minister- Mm ... so she told us very honestly, "I can't take questions." But the prime minister of, uh, Finland, of Iceland, of, [00:51:30] uh, Sweden, um, uh, and of course Norway- 

[00:51:33] Helley Video: Mm ... 

[00:51:34] Suhasini: all stuck around for about an hour after that speaking to various channels, speaking to various media.

[00:51:41] Suhasini: So when all of this happened, the, the Norwegian media, of course, pounced on their prime minister and asked him... But again, it was very angry, uh, conversations- Mm ... in Norwegian, so I didn't follow what was, uh, said over there. I think, uh, Hella has put out her version of what he said to her Um, uh, uh, but I'll tell you [00:52:00] what he said to me, uh- Mm

[00:52:01] Suhasini: when I asked. I said, "You've obviously had to answer questions here about why you haven't had a press conference." So my question was to him about him not holding a press conference. Mm. And he said to me, uh, "I am speaking to you. I have given you all an interview yesterday as well. All my Nordic..." This is all on the record.

[00:52:20] Suhasini: "All my Nordic colleagues have spoken." And you know, it is true. Mm. I literally spoke to each one of them. Um, "I have spoken to you. [00:52:30] Now, if Prime Minister Modi does not do press conferences, there may be traditional differences between India and us." 

[00:52:37] Abhinandan: Yes. Yeah. Gee, I'm Raja Rai. 

[00:52:38] Suhasini: Um, but it is not for us. As our host, we, uh, as the host, we have- Yeah

[00:52:42] Suhasini: to respect- 

[00:52:43] Abhinandan: Sure 

[00:52:44] Suhasini: The country ... the traditional differences. Yeah. Exactly. It's- And then turned around to me and said, "That's something for India to resolve, and you should take it up with your prime minister." Exactly. The moderation. I was like, "But I'm asking you for yours." But you know- Yeah ... by then he had walked away.

[00:52:56] Suhasini: Yeah, but, but it's 

[00:52:56] Abhinandan: a fair enough answer. Anand, what, what do you make of all this fracas? I don't know [00:53:00] whether you watched 

[00:53:00] Anand: it. 

[00:53:01] Abhinandan: So many video clips. 

[00:53:02] Anand: I think in the larger context of think, um, beyond the media bubble, uh, it's a non-event. It means non-event in the sense that, uh- Mm, there are two kind of theatrics going on.

[00:53:16] Anand: Uh, and, uh, uh, say the diplomat who said that, uh, was obviously incensed. He was not in control of his words. Whatever he said could have been said [00:53:30] differently. Uh, it is just like, uh, say someone yelling and, mm, screaming, uh, someone in your office at or at home, so not making much sense. Uh, and sub-- and, uh, the theatrics was from journalists' side also.

[00:53:49] Anand: Uh, uh, uh, so, uh, it was a good headline, but, uh, in the larger context of foreign relations, it's a [00:54:00] non-event. Uh, second thing is that, mm, of course, the political cultures differ, uh, but, uh, any country there is nothing like that you have to answer. Means, uh, uh, question, uh, it is, uh, particularly in India and many countries that you have to answer.

[00:54:22] Anand: Uh, you have a right to silence. It is better to answer, but you have a right to silence or avoid a question. So [00:54:30] that could be done, means, uh, uh, journalists, uh, don't have the statutory power that you have to answer me. 

[00:54:37] Abhinandan: Yeah, that's obvious. So- Like otherwise it would be stated in law. 

[00:54:40] Anand: Yes. So, uh, if- 

[00:54:42] Abhinandan: See, anything that is a debate is a convention.

[00:54:44] Abhinandan: If it's a rule, then it's not a debate. 

[00:54:45] Anand: Yes. So, and, uh, I think, uh, like in Operation Sindoor or these questions about human rights, media freedom or, or larger context of say, uh, territorial, [00:55:00] uh, questions, Kashmir, we- these, these things have been handled very well by Indian diplomats on different f-fora. Uh, uh, uh, not with some other, uh, kind of impulse, but I think Indian diplomats, Indian foreign service officers are among the best in the world, and many acknowledge it.

[00:55:20] Anand: Uh, you-- like Operation Sindoor, you see the performance of Vikram Doraiswami i-in BBC studio or in, in English [00:55:30] studios. He was one of the best articulators of Indian position. He's now our ambassador to Beijing or in UN, uh, Ruchika Kamboj, Syed Akru- Akrudeen, and many. So it's not that-- I think that diplomat had an, had an off day, and, uh, we should not generalize that.

[00:55:50] Anand: Uh, fourth is the, uh, like I think, uh, uh, the Scandinavian countries, uh, uh, Norway and these, they, they have a two-track thing. [00:56:00] Uh, one way, of course, they have to maintain the bilateral relationships. They will give you the h-highest civilian award and something like that. But they are also advertisers of what they think is their soft power.

[00:56:12] Anand: They are home to Nobel Prizes, they are home to certain, uh, say, mm, mm, l-liberal endorsement of certain values. Their msi- embassies in India are particularly advertisers. If you write a-- Uh, they ask, uh, university professors, [00:56:30] columnists to write in certain way. 

[00:56:32] Helley Video: Yeah. 

[00:56:32] Anand: Uh, I know, I know a few writers who have been asked to write in a certain way about certain things.

[00:56:38] Anand: They are also advertisers- Mm ... in a way. So they will, uh, but at the same time, they have to be also in the business of, say, real business of bilateral relations. So they will also, with the heads of government, they will have a different kind of relation that we saw give you a, this award, that award. Uh, fourth thing [00:57:00] is that we have to be less touchy about what people say.

[00:57:04] Anand: Means, uh, you, you will not control, uh, neither the world opinion nor, nor the Indian opinion, that any realist will know. So, uh, like, uh, Miss Heather said that like China, Russia, if you are really a serious global aspirant to power, you should be less touchy about these things. Mm. And, uh, uh, and why we are so touchy about that [00:57:30] someone is calling us this, this.

[00:57:31] Anand: Give your best defense and move on. That's all. 

[00:57:34] Abhinandan: So I, I think your last point, I'll just quickly refer to and then come back to Suhasini for the second part of what she was talking about. I think one is, of course, there is no that you have to answer, but that is understood in democracy. Just like until Biden made the rule, someone like Trump can completely challenge the electors don't have to endorse, you know, what the states in a presidential election.

[00:57:57] Abhinandan: It was not written in lu- rule, it was a convention, [00:58:00] that as an elector, whatever is the result of my state, all those votes go to the White House. It was not a rule, it was a convention. But when they realized someone as insane as Trump can tell an elector, "You don't have to endorse what your state said.

[00:58:13] Abhinandan: All those votes will come to the Rep- Republicans," then they made it a rule. Many things are conventions and not rules, but they are conventions because it is assumed that anyone with half a brain and a little bit of education will follow that convention. There is no convention that I can't step into a press conference and tell the Prime Minister, "Oh, you're such a moron.

[00:58:29] Abhinandan: Why are you such [00:58:30] stupid?" But I will not ask that question. It's convention. There's no rule that I can't ask that question. So to talk about that there's no one has the right, then you don't, don't become Prime Minister. That's convention So something that is convention and not a rule is what is argued about.

[00:58:47] Abhinandan: Otherwise it's black and white. There's no argument, right? So, so, and the second thing is, and I'll go back to Suhasini after this. The last thing I said, don't be bothered. India can't be that because the problem is the mindset of losers [00:59:00] comes from the top. You have nothing to show. I'll give you an example.

[00:59:04] Abhinandan: You know, every argument becomes, you know, we used to have this, we were sone ki chidiya, we were yoga, we were sar pe baitho The biggest losers I know will tell me, and amongst them are the Banas of Rajasthan, who I know many of, who do nothing except drink alcohol and have done nothing all their lives.

[00:59:23] Abhinandan: But when you tell them, "You're such losers," my great-grandfather was Bapji's second [00:59:30] wife's third husband. We used to have this... The biggest losers will tell you what their g- forefathers did, not, not what have they done. And that is the response to every criticism of this government. This is what we were 100 years ago.

[00:59:42] Abhinandan: Also, there's no record of that, but we invented internet, we did this, we did that. And that mindset has permeated the top of our, you know, decision-makers and is slowly finding its way down. Yeah, you were saying, Suhasini, on the, the, [01:00:00] the other aspect, like you said you'll come back to. 

[01:00:02] Suhasini: Yeah, so I, I mean, the...

[01:00:03] Suhasini: So that was, uh, uh, the, what the Norwegian said- Sure ... when he said there's this traditional difference, that it's cultural. Uh, firstly, I think, by the way, that is much more bigotry than, uh, you know, what other people have gotten upset about by this young journalist saying it. Mm. Because the prime minister of a country is saying essentially, "You're culturally different, so you don't have the same kind of democracy as I do."

[01:00:28] Suhasini: Democracy is a modern [01:00:30] construct. It has nothing to do with tradition- ... culture, mother of demo- democracy, power Not to say such a dumb thing to 

[01:00:34] Anand: say. 

[01:00:35] Suhasini: Yeah, exactly. My point is, why are we feeding into this, uh, bigotry and saying, "Yeah, we are not the same." It's, a, I mean, uh, you know, it, i- it is, it is, a, uh, the, then you have democracy with Chinese characteristics.

[01:00:48] Suhasini: So democracy with Indian characteristics of the last 12 years means I don't take press conferences. So that was one point I wanna make. Second, I, I, I, I do take Anand's point that there is [01:01:00] constantly going to be a desire to push soft power from these countries, and their soft power does come from the idea of democracy, which frankly we do, too.

[01:01:09] Suhasini: Mm. Um, uh, at G20, for example, we had an entire, uh, exhibition on how democracy is centered in India. Prime Minister Modi's speech to the Nordics was, we, uh, actually are, are natural partners because we care about democracy. Now, if that is the case, then you have to care about the same [01:01:30] democracy. You can't be, but today my democracy is more like what Xi Jinping does-

[01:01:34] Suhasini: but tomorrow I have the same thing with you. And the third thing I do wanna make is differentiate between journalists and, um, you know, the kind of, uh, expertise that you were talking about being, you know, paid for. Because, and I've been saying this to Abhinandan a lot, as a journalist for the last 12 years, the constant refrain that we get is you are questioning the government because you are no longer [01:02:00] on, uh, uh, on the Prime Minister's plane And my question is, again, turn this around.

[01:02:05] Suhasini: You are the taxpayer. You are paying for the Prime Minister's plane, you are paying for that plane to go with 30 empty seats that used to carry journalists on it. 

[01:02:13] Helley Video: Mm. 

[01:02:14] Suhasini: So you might think that I am giving up some great foreign trip, and I'll be honest, all, all of us do enough foreign trips in our lifetime, uh- Yeah, to not say ki haan, main nahi jaunga

[01:02:23] Suhasini: covering stories around the world. That, that is not... I mean, that's not the reason why we want to cover. It's our job. Mm. It's my job to [01:02:30] be- Yeah ... in these places and to look at the dem- diplomacy up close, to look at how leaders are dealing with each other and what India's, uh, position is, um, uh, you know, on various things.

[01:02:39] Suhasini: So that is my job. I will not complain about how I do my job and how difficult it is to do it with the lack of access. And I'm not complaining about that. I'm just saying that this idea that somehow this free trip is coming when actually speaking, go back to, uh... I, I'm not talking just about myself or my colleagues.

[01:02:56] Suhasini: Go back and find out how many stories all of us filed. I think [01:03:00] I did about 14 stories in three days. 

[01:03:02] Helley Video: Mm. 

[01:03:02] Suhasini: Now, the fact is, television as, I mean, uh, on, on, uh, video and, uh, as well as print. The fact is we are working. It's not about, you know, whether you got on the Prime Minister's plane, and you know, these, these imagined, imagined ideas of us sitting over there eating caviar in one hand-

[01:03:20] Suhasini: I'm vegetarian, and, um, and, and drinking the best of whiskeys and wi- I mean, you know, the, uh, that is my real issue with [01:03:30] the kind of pushback. A- again, it is not about questioning the government that says, "I will not take journalists with me even though I have empty seats on my plane." I've now got two planes.

[01:03:40] Suhasini: I've got in one of the planes a press conference room, I kid you not. But which... Oh, really? But I will not... Yes. I will not take anything but, uh, t- camera people from the two official channels. Mm. So my, my, my real question is turn this around. Ask that question because we are taxpaying citizens also. It's not just about what journalists feel, or [01:04:00] as Anand said, is a media bubble.

[01:04:02] Suhasini: It is about what you as a taxpayer expect, uh, from your government. And if they're not able to do that, if they're not able to do that, then the least we can do is question them about it. Mm. I'm not comparing to previous prime ministers, and the fact is nobody, nobody was actually, uh, the people who were on that plane, nobody was saying great things about the government.

[01:04:24] Suhasini: I can remember, uh, uh, both Prime Minister Vajpayee and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh answering [01:04:30] questions that were about local politics and very critical to them Uh, o-on the, on the Prime Minister's plane because they didn't see it as the personal vehicle of only a prime minister. It was a public, uh, publicly funded, uh, uh, vehicle.

[01:04:46] Suhasini: And, and therefore, having journalists, as Abhinandan said quite rightly, is part not just of a convention, it is part of the construct of democracies. Democracies are meant to have these checks and balances. So I don't think media is irrelevant [01:05:00] just because somebody can, uh, tweet what they feel or put out their own videos of what they feel.

[01:05:04] Suhasini: The media is there to mediate, to understand what your message is, to question that message, and then to put out, uh, what they see as a sort of more holistic version of it. I'll stop with my, uh, Simi-type, uh, diatribe there. 

[01:05:18] Abhinandan: Right. No, but, but yeah, yeah, go ahead Manisha. 

[01:05:21] Manisha: No, it's not also ... No, two things I wanted to

[01:05:22] Manisha: One, uh, on with are Indian diplomats being capable of answering questions and being smart and putting out Indian position. Of [01:05:30] course. All that is well taken, but the question here is not the capability of our diplomats. And like I said, I feel actually bad for this MEA gentleman who essentially had to do what a BJP spokesperson is expected to do.

[01:05:42] NDTV clip: Hmm. 

[01:05:42] Manisha: The question is very specific of why the Prime Minister is not taking questions. That has to be answered by the Prime Minister. The government is responsible for that. And one should take great exception to what the Prime Minister, the Nor- Norwegian Prime Minister said, "It's your tradition." It's not our tradition.

[01:05:56] Manisha: 2014, before that, we had press conferences, very lively [01:06:00] press conferences. In fact, we have very young people joining News Laundry, and you know, we often show them the January 2014 press conference, the last one we had- Hmm ... that Manmohan took, and they're always amazed that, wow- 

[01:06:11] NDTV clip: Hmm ... 

[01:06:11] Manisha: journalists did this? ऐसा भी हो सकता है.

[01:06:13] NDTV clip: Hmm. 

[01:06:13] Manisha: You know? So it is absolutely not our tradition. In fact, even Atal Bihari Vajpayee, after the Ram Mandir thing had happened, all Advani, uh, Vajpayee, all these guys took questions from people today who are like, you know, whatever liberal- Gujarat ... Libyans, elite, whatever, Gujarat. After the 

[01:06:27] Suhasini: Gujarat riots- Yeah

[01:06:28] Suhasini: Prime 

[01:06:28] Manisha: Minister Vajpayee took a press conference. So our [01:06:30] tradition has not been that. Why are we accepting that this is your tradition? Somebody in the last 12 years has made it the, you know, the norm, but that's not the tradition. And on what Suhasini was saying, I remember that when this whole thing had stopped, um, of, uh, journalists being taken with, uh, the Prime Minister for foreign, uh, you know, engagements, which is should be the norm everywhere.

[01:06:51] Manisha: Because not only do you get to report on what the event or the trip is supposed to be, but you also get an understanding of what our strategy is. Hmm. What are we really [01:07:00] thinking of when we're talking- That's right ... about lo- you know, looking at the world. And especially with this government, we're such a focus what the world thinks about you, how we're taking over the world.

[01:07:07] Manisha: I remember at that time there were journalists- Who was celebrating this? That good, we have stopped these trips of these- 

[01:07:13] Abhinandan: Ha, I know Like 

[01:07:14] Manisha: why? 

[01:07:15] Abhinandan: But that was the of- I mean- Those are, I mean, those were Anand Raghunathan type people who know very little about journalism 

[01:07:19] Manisha: That this is something very amazing that has happened, that we stopped these- Yeah, those 

[01:07:22] Abhinandan: types, yeah

[01:07:22] Manisha: it's not a free trip. 

[01:07:23] Abhinandan: Just like, I mean, he sat on the Hafta once and said- And- ... that journalism should be a part-time profession because otherwise you will get [01:07:30] totally compromised And amazingly some- And I was like, "Dude, do you know how a story's done?" He says, you know, "I can be a jour-" On Hafta, "I can be a journalist being a scientist."

[01:07:37] Abhinandan: Writing a bloody column, pelling your opinion, which I do all the time is not journalism. You know how long it takes to cover a story on the ground. But most, most commentators who appear on, on panels, they've never done a fucking ground report in their lives. Mm. You tell them to do one, it'll take them 21 days to put out like 1,000 words.

[01:07:56] Manisha: And forget foreign MEA correspondents, people, reporters [01:08:00] covering Parliament say that. That we don't have the access that we used to have earlier. We could go, move inside, 

[01:08:04] Abhinandan: meet- And that to happened also when they removed that thing They've barric- 

[01:08:07] Manisha: So- 

[01:08:07] Abhinandan: And then they got it back because- Yeah ... there was so, so much outrage.

[01:08:10] Abhinandan: Yes, Anand, uh, to you- No, I- ... before we give the last word to, uh, our guest, Suhasini. 

[01:08:15] Anand: No, I don't think it's a norm. I think it is, uh, the partic- uh, the government headed by the prime minister has, uh, a different style or a different memory of media. There can be different theories of it with his, uh, engagement of [01:08:30] media, with media, and he has a, a style.

[01:08:33] Anand: And it's not even permanent, maybe with the regime change. Mm. So it's not a very permanent thing. He has a particular style or memory of media or engage- terms of engagement. But, uh, second thing is that, uh, mm, I don't think, uh, the MEA spokespersons or diplomats act like BJP spokespersons, no. M- uh, I think they represent the country.

[01:08:56] Anand: Sometimes the party in power in Delhi's line [01:09:00] coincides with what's, what's the national line. It can happen with any government, whether it's a Congress government or BJP government or a... Uh, that particular press conference, he was all over the place because of, um, I think, uh, mm, incensed, yes. He was not in control of words.

[01:09:18] Anand: May- he could have put it in three, four sentences also. So, uh, I would s- just, uh, give him a bit more sympathetic, uh, hm, um, [01:09:30] say, con- concession that it's a n- it was an off day to him, uh, for him. 

[01:09:35] Abhinandan: Right. Suhasini, last word to you and then your recommendation, please. 

[01:09:40] Suhasini: Um, I, I mean, my last word is simply, uh, our job as journalists is not to accept It is, it is to question, it's to push our boundaries, to try and do things, uh, in different ways, to keep applying-

[01:09:54] Suhasini: for interviews even if you don't get them. And, uh, you know, I mean, uh, we, we are [01:10:00] able to say this about MEA officials because they're out there. The MEA spokesperson has a briefing once a week, sometimes twice a week. Uh, the, uh, the foreign secretary has addressed us. Uh, the, um, MEA secretary, Sibi George, really took time, uh, to...

[01:10:17] Suhasini: I think that one press conference went on for, uh, more than an hour and a half. Uh, the question is that we do not now, even the external affairs minister doesn't do interviews, uh, that are non- uh, you know... I mean, he does [01:10:30] very... He comes on these, uh, conclaves, but he doesn't really do too many interviews where there are, uh, follow-ups.

[01:10:36] Suhasini: Um, although he used to be a lot more prolific. Uh, uh, it's just more recent that we haven't seen him as much. But we have to keep questioning, we have to keep asking, we have to say, "Why are we not on that plane? Why is the prime minister not doing press conferences?" And if this Norway visit reminded me of something, it is to not normalize this behavior.

[01:10:56] Helley Video: Mm. 

[01:10:57] Suhasini: To not normalize a government saying, "I [01:11:00] don't need to answer your questions." Mm. Because then we have a duty to tell people the government is not answering this question. Mm. 

[01:11:06] Helley Video: In 

[01:11:07] Suhasini: every one of our reports, we must be able to say, "We asked the question and it was not responded to." I agree with Anand completely, that it's, it's anyone's, uh, uh, prerogative whether they wanna answer a question at a certain time or not.

[01:11:21] Suhasini: Uh, but it's not, it's not okay for us as journalists to just be accepting of it. Okay. Uh, that's my, uh, uh, uh, uh, word on that. And as I said- And your [01:11:30] recommendation for the week? You know, I, as I said, please watch Borged Um, uh, the whole series. There are three parts to the series. Uh, because it, it, it does remind you, you know, this is not very different from how India has been- 

[01:11:43] Helley Video: Mm

[01:11:44] Suhasini: uh, for a large part of its, uh, uh, um, you know, democratic, uh, republic, uh, history. So I think we d- we need to remind ourselves, we need to be less cynical about the idea «ki ye to ab aise hi hai.» Mm. Um, we need to be a [01:12:00] little more questioning of why things are the way they are. And, and so I'd say, yeah, definitely watch Morgan.

[01:12:05] Suhasini: Uh, in terms of journalism, there's so much out there. Bob Woodward, uh, every few years has a piece, has a book out about, uh, dealing with different presidents in, in the US. Not to say we don't have that in India. Uh, we have, uh, a very, very proud tradition in India as well. Um, you know, the, the entire genre of emergency literature is just about that.

[01:12:28] Manisha: Mm. 

[01:12:29] Suhasini: Is just about [01:12:30] what the Indian press refused to take lying down, went to jail for, uh, and, and, uh, uh, and lived to tell the tale. Um, so I think, uh, I, I would say, you know, there are a number of books as, as well about, uh, the Indian emergency that I w- I would recommend. 

[01:12:45] Abhinandan: Thank you so much, Vasini, uh- Thank you

[01:12:47] Abhinandan: for making the time, and have a great weekend. Bye-bye. 

[01:12:49] Suhasini: You too. Thanks a lot. 

[01:12:51] Abhinandan: Right. With that, I just want to quickly tell our audience that there are three kinds of cockroach. 

[01:12:59] Manisha: Mm. [01:13:00] 

[01:13:00] Abhinandan: Amitabh Bachchan had said in Hum, "Ek gutter cockroach, ek society cockroach." 

[01:13:05] Manisha: Really? Two- Ye dialogue hai? Maine nahi dekha.

[01:13:08] Abhinandan: Dialogue. 

[01:13:08] Manisha: Mujhe yaad nahi hai. You haven't 

[01:13:09] Abhinandan: seen Hum? 

[01:13:10] Manisha: I don't remember Hum. Maybe 

[01:13:11] Abhinandan: it's- Termination papers laao Manisha ke. Hum- She has to resign from her position at News Laundry ASAP. 

[01:13:18] Manisha: I have not seen Hum. 

[01:13:19] Abhinandan: Okay, so there's a very long comedy sequence and no one did comedy quite like Amitabh Bachchan drunk.

[01:13:24] Anand: Ek finite, ek finite se mar jaata 

[01:13:25] Abhinandan: hai. Haan, ek finite se mar jaata hai, ek society ko k- Anyway, but I'm [01:13:30] talking about American cockroach is called Periplaneta americana. The German cockroach is called Blattella germe- ... germanica. 

[01:13:39] Manisha: What? 

[01:13:40] Abhinandan: And the Oriental cockroach is called Blatta orientalis. So I'm guessing- 

[01:13:44] Manisha: Oriental cockroach is what you get in Delhi, I guess, 

[01:13:46] Abhinandan: in India

[01:13:46] Abhinandan: so, so whoever's the founder of the party, please also specify which type you are be- before you are accused of being an American agent and that you are Periplaneta americana. That's my advice. But, [01:14:00] uh, just want to remind everybody again that please subscribe and pay to keep news free. See the work that our reporters, our journalists, our editors do, our producers as well, the podcasts we put out.

[01:14:11] Abhinandan: World Cup is around the corner. We've done one season of Let's Talk About Indian Football. We're gonna be doing one more season. Write in to us at podcast@newslaundry.com and tell us who we should interview for that series. And this Hafta Is Free, share it with your friends, family, relatives, so that they also understand [01:14:30] why they must pay to keep news free.

[01:14:32] Abhinandan: QR code as usual and link. Right, now let's get to the emails. Mm. We only entertain the feedback, criticism, suggestions of- Our subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, you can mail us at podcasts@newslaundry.com. I repeat, podcasts@newslaundry.com. In the subject line, please write "Hafta," or you can click on the link in the show notes below and a window will pop up.

[01:14:56] Abhinandan: You can give us your feedback there. Please keep it limited to 150 words so we [01:15:00] can include as many mails as possible. Manisha has curated this week's emails. 

[01:15:05] Manisha: Yes. So first email is from Kartik, who says, "Long time subscriber, 11 years." Yay. 

[01:15:10] Abhinandan: Mm. And 

[01:15:11] Manisha: well-wisher. 

[01:15:11] Abhinandan: Wow. 

[01:15:12] Manisha: Recent assembly results highlight a worrying trend.

[01:15:15] Manisha: Opposition parties are increasingly becoming Muslim parties of Muslim voters as Hindus consolidate behind BJP. My question: How important is it for opposition leaders to adopt the language of Hindu faith and cultural symbolism in their political communication? I'm from Andhra, where [01:15:30] politicians across parties routinely use Hindu cultural references to argue for values like tolerance.

[01:15:34] Manisha: It works. This also explains why South Indian film stars strike a political chord. Each... Since each state is defined by its language, a star's connection with that state's audience is far more intimate than a pan North Indian figure like Amitabh Bachchan spread across multiple Hindi-speaking states. 

[01:15:49] Helley Video: Mm.

[01:15:50] Manisha: Congress' elite leadership completely missed this, hindering their mass connect. Modi has mastered this. Gandhi used similar methods masterfully during the freedom movement. In fact, I was just gonna [01:16:00] come to that before, like, Asli Ram, uh, woh toh Gandhi ne diya tha. 

[01:16:05] Abhinandan: Mm. 

[01:16:06] Manisha: What is the word did he...? Ram Rajya. Mm.

[01:16:07] Manisha: Ram Rajya was Gandhi's kind of- 

[01:16:10] Abhinandan: Kartik, I will just say that I've, in fact, we've discussed in Hafta, this is one of the criticisms I have of the over-woke journalist class, that the moment any religious symbolism happens, they say, "Oh my God, ha ha, soft Hinduta, soft Hinduta." I just find that so annoying.

[01:16:24] Abhinandan: What that ends up happening is then you have the Hindu parties and you have the Muslim parties. 

[01:16:28] Helley Video: Mm. 

[01:16:28] Abhinandan: Um, [01:16:30] I've given this example, and in fact, a subscriber had written back saying that there was a context to that, although he did not quite dismiss what I was saying. I said even Obama, who was famously atheist, when he became president, would go to church, hold hands, and sing Amazing Grace.

[01:16:42] Abhinandan: You cannot reject religion- Yeah ... because when large chunk of it... So I think it is important, and I think as long as it's not done for religion, but I think this also has diminishing returns. I had clicked a photograph, but it's such a blurred photograph I couldn't tweet it out. I'm increasingly seeing... I was at a red light standing.

[01:16:59] Abhinandan: There [01:17:00] was one sticker which said- Hindu, one which had Brahman, and one which said Gujjar. They were all... It's a new phenomena of putting your caste or religion sticker at the back. Uh, I think after a point of time, people will start putting Brahmin or Karnik Brahmin or Kshatriya- ... you've got that, and again, it'll divide up again.

[01:17:20] Abhinandan: Uh, but I think rejection of religion and, you know, completely dismissing anyone who use a religious symbol is, [01:17:30] is dumb. Yeah. You don't understand politics if that's what you do. 

[01:17:32] Manisha: And actually, Rahul Gandhi doesn't really do that. He does talk about being a Shiva Bhakt and all of that, so he does kind of- He's 

[01:17:37] Abhinandan: a little clumsy on how he does it, 

[01:17:38] Manisha: but sure.

[01:17:38] Manisha: I mean, he's, it's not a... And Indira Gandhi did very well- Yeah ... all the temple runs. She was Durga. Yeah, 

[01:17:43] Abhinandan: yeah. 

[01:17:44] Manisha: So I think Congress has also had the tradition of doing it. Nitin says, "Hey, that seemed like an abrupt exit of Jayshree. What happened? Where's the farewell? We discussed more about Priyali leaving than Jayshree in 'Hafta.'"

[01:17:55] Manisha: Amar says, "Hi, regarding 'Hafta' 589, I was shocked to learn that Jayshree has left NL. [01:18:00] I didn't listen to previous episode as I avoid all news during election result week." "Maybe Jayshree's departure was mentioned. I will miss Jayshree's passion and her regal dismissing of all political bullshit on which other panelists go on discussing ad nauseam.

[01:18:15] Manisha: Welcome Rinchin to 'Hafta.' Once again, I propose Abhinandan to stop rant against cricket. Even the proposed panel on the topic is not going to achieve anything. A better panel will be to discuss how to use water to fry food." "Papa has asked us to consume less oil." [01:18:30] Okay. Saini Nayak also says, "Hi, guys. I was disappointed to find out that Jayshree is no longer with News Laundry.

[01:18:35] Manisha: I echoed most of her sentiments on nearly all political issues. I want to point out that without Jayshree and Manisha, the 'Hafta' panel is becoming a manel, panel with all men. I'm all for junior members of News Laundry to be part of 'Hafta,' but I expect NL to be mindful of this." 

[01:18:51] Abhinandan: So two, three things. I think they must have missed the Jayashree's last Hafta.

[01:18:55] Abhinandan: But 

[01:18:56] Manisha: we didn't announce it. 

[01:18:57] Abhinandan: We did. 

[01:18:57] Manisha: No. 

[01:18:58] Abhinandan: Are of course in the beginning she said, "This is [01:19:00] my last Hafta." 

[01:19:00] Manisha: No. Even she was, 'cause I asked her yesterday and she's like, "No, I thought you guys would, but you didn't." 

[01:19:06] Abhinandan: I didn't know we are, we discussed it on the Hafta. 

[01:19:08] Manisha: We didn't. We discussed Priyali leaving. We didn't discuss Jayashree.

[01:19:12] Abhinandan: Oh, anyways, so hopefully Jayashree will be back. I'll just, uh- 

[01:19:15] Manisha: No, no, I'm pretty sure we didn't- Okay ... 'cause I asked her this also. Okay, 

[01:19:18] Abhinandan: fine. Okay. So but yeah, hopefully Jayashree will be, we'll get her another Hafta. 

[01:19:23] Manisha: Yeah. 

[01:19:23] Abhinandan: Although she did promise, uh, she's taking a m- month, I think, or six-week completely no work break.

[01:19:28] Abhinandan: After that she'll get back to [01:19:30] different kinds of work. But she has promised that she will be back from time to time on Hafta. Uh- So 

[01:19:35] Manisha: maybe she, it was not a farewell after all, and she may be back. 

[01:19:38] Abhinandan: So and on the other thing about cricket, it may not serve a purpose. I don't think anything has to serve a purpose, and no one wins or lose a debate.

[01:19:46] Abhinandan: You just put out more ideas there, and they may influence some people or may not. 

[01:19:49] Manisha: One more cricket email by Srikanth KP- Mm ... who says, "Hello, Abhinandan. Long time subscriber and big fan. I just finished listening to Let's Talk About Football series, and I find it to be educational, [01:20:00] insightful, and amazing. I wish, though, that your love for football isn't so strongly linked with hate for cricket in your mind.

[01:20:05] Manisha: I'm not gonna fall for your rage bait, as I'm hearing these thoughts from you for the last 12 years, and I'm immune now. I just take your views on cricket as a blemish we need to live with for the sake of free media." "I find the planned debate on whether cricket is a sport or not utterly pointless. It may be a lengthy exercise on splitting hairs over definition of sport, and you aren't gonna change your mind.

[01:20:26] Manisha: I urge all subscribers who are planning to take part in it not to [01:20:30] do it, as Abhinandan will listen to all of you and in the sa- in the end say, 'But Inzamam was fat,' and walk away as if he won the debate." He's actually predicted it pretty well. Well, I can- 

[01:20:40] Abhinandan: He's 

[01:20:40] Manisha: like, "No point. It is pointless. Subscribers only."

[01:20:43] Abhinandan: I can't, I can't disagree with it. 

[01:20:45] Anand: No, uh, means I have said earlier th- there is a, an element of arbitrariness to that- Exactly ... bec- because a sport has not been defined- Defined ... and game has not been defined. There is a game in every sport. Mm. Like say football, some say beautiful game. Right. So they say [01:21:00] game.

[01:21:00] Anand: It is also 

[01:21:00] Abhinandan: beautiful 

[01:21:00] Anand: sport. So e- every sport has a game within, and every game may have some sport within it. Also, I, I, I, I have played three, uh, sports. I am multi-sports thing, um, person, so I, I played volleyball, cricket, and football. So I like all them, all of them. And, uh, I, I think it's, uh, it is just like saying tiger is not an animal So, uh, first- Eh, nahi, nahi sir 

[01:21:27] Abhinandan: ye toh 

[01:21:28] Anand: zyada ho But what I am saying [01:21:30] is that tiger is not saying tiger is not an animal will give you a lot of engagement because pe- people will protest tiger is an animal.

[01:21:39] Anand: But, uh, then you have to go to the definition of animal then. And, and so it's th- just like that means I'm- 

[01:21:47] Abhinandan: So Srigar, actually we had started a series called NL Versus NL in the COVID year, where we had people, f- uh, subscribers of NL writing on an issue, one [01:22:00] for, one against, and then we'd put them on a podcast and they'd debate it out.

[01:22:04] Abhinandan: See, as far as I'm concerned, I think one of the, uh, things that I try to stay away from is that the, the purpose of a debate is that someone will go, go away having convinced the other. That will never happen. I don't believe it'll ever happen. Also, that people who will come will watch and go away having changed their mind.

[01:22:25] Abhinandan: I just think it puts ideas out there. It makes- Mm ... discussions interesting. It engages us. We [01:22:30] talk to each other, we disagree. So there are many things that emerge from it. One is a sense of disagreeing and yet being friendly. Two, maybe putting ideas out there that make us rethink how we can... At least for me, like I said, my position on the death penalty has changed.

[01:22:45] Abhinandan: It didn't change on one debate. It changed over time as I heard more people articulate their view on it. Um, my position- 

[01:22:52] Anand: What is, what is the current position? 

[01:22:54] Abhinandan: Currently, I don't think, uh, it should be legal. 

[01:22:57] Anand: Mm. 

[01:22:58] Abhinandan: And it's changed twice. Earlier [01:23:00] I was pro-death penalty. Uh, so earlier I was against death penalty, then I became pro-death penalty, now I'm again, you know, against death penalty.

[01:23:06] Abhinandan: Uh, I, I think, um, my position on, you know, Bill Maher, the more he speaks has changed. I was a huge fan. I still think he's a phenomenally intelligent man, but I think on Israel he's just completely insane. So, you know, maybe your position on me will change as you hear me talk more and more. You say, "Pagal hai ye banda.

[01:23:28] Abhinandan: pata nahi why I liked him in the first [01:23:30] place." I just think that's the purpose of conversations, not to change someone's 

[01:23:33] Manisha: mind. 

[01:23:33] Abhinandan: That 

[01:23:33] Manisha: should be the purpose of our podcast, but 

[01:23:34] Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah, but that's not the purpose of a conversation, that I will change your mind by one this thing. But you're right, I will walk away saying sab ho gaya, but Inzamam is fat Is that it?

[01:23:45] Manisha: That's it. 

[01:23:47] Abhinandan: Excellent. So let's get the recommendations. You wanna go first, Anand? 

[01:23:50] Anand: Uh, okay. So, um, I am recommending a piece by Manu Joseph on Vijay, the current Tamil Nadu chief minister. It's not, uh, not the [01:24:00] political side of it, but he has gone into, uh, a thing that I always believed, and he also articulates many times.

[01:24:08] Anand: He has done, uh, it again that, uh, uh, when, mm, people, uh, uh, attain, say, abnormal success, not normal, but abnormal success. Mm. So then, uh, and that's why successful people are, uh, the most rubbish people to listen to because they will then not say one [01:24:30] thing that youngsters must, uh, know that the abnormal success is always caused by all other factors but luck, but luck, and they will not say that.

[01:24:42] Anand: And that luck is nothing like anything, uh, divine or superstition, but, uh, alignment of factors, randomness, and things working in your favor. So at, uh, at that, and when they are not successful, [01:25:00] they will curse that luck. But, uh, successful people don't tell the most important things. So you have, uh, hours of videos, motivational videos on this and that, that, and what they...

[01:25:13] Anand: Uh, so abnormal success i- is sometimes beyond, uh... It's not an input/output device that you put these, these things and this output will come. Mm. So it, and that, that is for a normal degree of success. Abnormal success is caused by many [01:25:30] factors which the successful don't know why they succeeded. So, uh, and he has put it well in the context of Vijay.

[01:25:37] Anand: So that, that, that piece, yeah, that is my only- 

[01:25:40] Abhinandan: So, you know, speaking of Manu, you know, I think Karthik's was the last male. Now Manu is a great example of An opinion that makes you think. I don't always agree with him. Hmm. In fact, I often disagree with him. But I love reading Manu, I love talking to Manu because he has a thought through position, [01:26:00] which is smart.

[01:26:01] Abhinandan: I may not always agree with it, and I think that is what good writers, uh, should do. And often he, I think he rage baits, and I've told him, "This you just did to piss people off." Like that piece he wrote that all Modi supporters are ugly or some shit like 

[01:26:14] Manisha: that. That 

[01:26:15] Abhinandan: was Aakar. That was Aakar, sorry, okay. But, you know, but- 

[01:26:19] Manisha: I mean, his position on suicide, where he's, refuses to accept that it could do anything with financial distress- Right

[01:26:25] Abhinandan: it's 

[01:26:25] Manisha: a mental- It's a, 

[01:26:26] Abhinandan: so I, but I just think it, you know, [01:26:30] makes you think. 

[01:26:30] Manisha: Yeah, yeah. 

[01:26:32] Abhinandan: Yeah. Manisha? 

[01:26:32] Manisha: So we have a piece by Indulekha Aravind, uh, on, um, there's a controversy that was raging around a Times of India article, which was called The Quiet Grief of Adult Friendship. The article went completely viral, and then it was accused of being completely written by AI.

[01:26:48] Manisha: So people felt cheated that something that we loved so much was actually produced by AI, and this is something that we're gonna face again and again because there's lots of controversies. NYT is dealing with it. A host of media [01:27:00] organizations are dealing with it. So it's a nice little column that Indu's written on.

[01:27:03] Manisha: Your favorite column was written by AI, now what? How do you process it? Because this, uh, TOI article was about adult friendship and what happens to friendships as you grow old, uh, it reminded me of, and actually a very beautiful article in The New Yorker. It's an essay called The Trouble With Friends: The Wonder and the Curse of Friendship Is Choice.

[01:27:26] Manisha: I think it's not AI written at all, but it's a really wonderful exploration of [01:27:30] adult friendships. So do read these two pieces. And please, please do check out, uh, the story on- neonatal pregnan-, um, preterm pre-, uh, pregnancies in Delhi, what the connection that it has to pollution. I think it's a very urgent story that everyone should read and really, hopefully really wakes up people into understanding that this is really a maternity crisis that we need to look at very carefully.

[01:27:55] Anand: A few months ago, the Dawn, uh, the Pakistani newspaper, had [01:28:00] published a piece for our- And won't be there, yeah, correct ... article, and the last day f- means forgot to delete the- Delete the bit. Yeah, this is- If you want Yeah ... I can do it. 

[01:28:09] Manisha: You want me to make it smarter, sharper? 

[01:28:11] Abhinandan: Yeah. Uh, so my recommendations are the following.

[01:28:16] Abhinandan: One is this late-night comedy piece which, I mean, many Indians also, a lot of them, Modi supporters, were big Trump supporters. The latest move of Trump [01:28:30] is such a brazen act of corruption, and the fact that he knows he can get away with it. You can read about it, but I think it's just really beautifully done by this late-night, uh, comedy show which informs you and makes you laugh.

[01:28:46] Abhinandan: It's a must-watch. And we should also start now a show, Manisha, where we take up an issue- 

[01:28:53] Helley Video: Hmm ... 

[01:28:54] Abhinandan: and we demonstrate the issue but with comedy. You know, we'll, we'll brainstorm on this. I [01:29:00] think that's something that we can look at. That is one piece. And, uh, the second is, um, do read up, there are several articles about that, on India not being able to figure out who is gonna get the rights for- 

[01:29:14] Manisha: Yeah

[01:29:14] Abhinandan: World Cup football. I've been reading about that. And now Prasad Bharti has said it's not our problem. 

[01:29:18] Manisha: Huh. Uh, 

[01:29:20] Abhinandan: it tells you all you need to know about how farsighted our decision-makers are. Like Ranjith had said on our podcast, that, [01:29:30] you know, I, I know I'll piss off a lot of people when I say this. We keep celebrating Sachin, Sachin.

[01:29:35] Abhinandan: Sachin goes internationally, he's nobody. No one, there'll be no crowds to see him. Just we are very happy with him. But imagine if we had a Ronaldo here. Today, and what is, Infantino? The FIFA dude's name is Infantino, no? Trump will take his call; he may not take Modi's call. Imagine if we had a Messi, a Ronaldo.

[01:29:57] Abhinandan: Like, half the world's population would want to come to India [01:30:00] to see them How it could, you know, raise your economy, it could raise your soft power, so much it could do. 

[01:30:08] Helley Video: Hmm. 

[01:30:08] Abhinandan: We have money to give contracts to Sudhir. We have money to do the most third-rate programming, but we will not buy the rights of football.

[01:30:18] Abhinandan: But BCCI will not be under. Just read up about this and it'll tell you all you need to know. All of you who are holding your breath thinking that we will be the next big thing in the world, now it's up to the next generation [01:30:30] to make it happen. Our chance is over. Sorry to sound so cynical. It's just- 

[01:30:33] Manisha: Gen Z.

[01:30:35] Abhinandan: Yeah, you're the only hope because we've screwed up big time. You say 

[01:30:38] Manisha: that with sadness. 

[01:30:39] Abhinandan: Yeah. 

[01:30:40] Manisha: Oh, no, you're the only hope. 

[01:30:41] Abhinandan: Yeah, it's how it is. So with that, thank you Manisha. Thank you. Thank you, Anand. Thank you, Anil. Thank you, Amit. Is there anyone behind the curtain? Saurabh. And Saurabh is behind the curtain as well.

[01:30:52] Abhinandan: Thank you, Saurabh, and thank you. Please pay to keep news free, support independent journalism, and please ensure we have the [01:31:00] resources to become bigger and better so that we can serve you better. Have a fantastic weekend. 

[01:31:05] London dekha

[01:31:20] तेरी जाँ सब

[01:31:25] दूसरा हिंदुस्तान, दूसरा हिंदुस्तान, [01:31:30] दूसरा हिंदुस्तान

[01:31:38] Song: एक दुल्हन दुल्हन के माथे की बिंदिया। ये मेरा इंडिया। ये मेरा इंडिया। आई लव माय इंडिया। आई लव माय इंडिया।

[01:31:58] Manisha: Thank you for your subscription. [01:32:00] You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts, and you'll also get access to all free News Laundry shows. Keep us ad-free and subscriber-funded.

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