Hafta x South Central feat. Josy Joseph: A crossover episode on the future of media

This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri and Manisha Pande, and The News Minute’s Dhanya Rajendran and Sudipto Mondal áre joined by senior journalist Josy Joseph for a special Hafta and South Central crossover episode on the future of media.

Josy begins the discussion by arguing that the decline of newspapers and television is accelerating, not only due to technology, but also because of a compromised business model. He points out that while balance sheets are “artificially protected” through government and corporate advertising, the reality is stark

Dhanya shares hard lessons on what audiences pay for. While issues like climate change receive constant calls for coverage, they draw little financial support. “Everybody’s always asking why you guys are not reporting on the environment… but that is one fund people hardly pay,” she says. 

Manisha adds that the future role of journalism lies in helping audiences think critically in an “age of reels and feels.” 

“While others can trigger emotions, journalists can provide context, history, and perspective,” she says. 

On the replacement for legacy media, Josy says, “What you people are doing at The News Minute and Newslaundry, to me, is a great laboratory of experiment. You are actually bringing journalism back as the intellectual property for which people should pay,” he says.

We have a page for subscribers to send letters to our shows. If you want to write to Hafta, click here. And click here to contribute to our new Sena project.

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Timecodes

00:00:00 – Introductions and announcements

00:12:26 – Headlines 

00:37:42 -  Discussion on the future of media 

01:28:17 - Recommendations

References 

Media Rumble registration 

NL Sena: Urban India’s elite takeover

Recommendations

Abhinandan

Ta-Nehisi Coates and Ezra Klein Hash Out Their Charlie Kirk Disagreement

Pete Hegseth and Trump speech

Manisha

Rule change to record spend: The untold story of Uttarakhand’s Rs 1,001 crore ad spree

Homebound 

Dhanya Rajendran 

Meow Meow

Sudipto Mondal 

Ambedkar's Buddha and his Dhamma in 2022: Undefined and evolving 

Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.

Recorded by Priyali Dhingra and Bhuvan Malik. Production assistance by Ajai.

Edited by Jaseem Ali, produced by Amit Pandey.

Abhinandan: Sorry. Okay. You wanna go first? Okay. And raised. Okay. Why don't you go first? 

Dhanya Rajendran: I don't wanna be nice to you, but then since you're the guest today in Bangalore, please go first. 

Abhinandan: How very large hearted of you. Tan is always kind and always there's a sign of a person who's kind to animals, especially.

Cats is generally a kind person. That is one telltale sign of kind people, right? Say so. Micro co-panelists say so, but welcome to the intersection of South, central and Hafta. So we shall give our lines, Andre or Newsland. Welcome to another episode of 

Dhanya Rajendran: South Central A TNM podcast, where we put the south at the center 

Abhinandan: and we are at the center.

We are in Bangalore. Uh, the news laundry team is here because tomorrow we are recording this on. Thursday. Yeah, the 2nd of October tomorrow is the media rumble. So please do attend. Those of you who have registered, [00:01:00] uh, the entire newsletter team has come and we are being very, very graciously hosted by Tania and her team at the newsletter.

Thank you, Tania. We are forever grateful. Happy this Sarah Danya. You 

Dhanya Rajendran: are looking at a teacher who's like, because we can't disclose the cruel stuff that he said before the episode. Right? Happy the Sarah. Happy 

Abhinandan: the Sarah happy the, let's welcome 

Dhanya Rajendran: Josie. Oh yeah. Yes. Josie is 

Abhinandan: our guest. So in the intersection of news Minute and news Laundry, we have the one common factor, which is the excellence we all strive towards.

Josie Joseph, 

Manisha: the connect, the connector, the CO 

Abhinandan: holds 

Sudipto : us 

Abhinandan: together. 

Manisha: You are the confluence, the connect 

Abhinandan: thousand Crow. Yes. He holds the record. Largest defamation. Let me do the official introduction. Award-winning investigative journalist, writer based in Delhi career spanning over 29 years. He's the founder of Conference Media platform agnostic investigator journalism outfit.

He wants to build a scalable, commercially viable model for quality journalism. He's the author of nonfiction books, A Feast of Vultures, and The Silent Co. And [00:02:00] you have seen his interviews about both those books on news, laundry and newsmen as well. On that note, welcome Juzi. Thank you. Thank you. Also on the panel, Manisha Pande.

Hello Daniel, of course, you know, and a wonderful colleague is here. Uh, he is looking absolutely dapper. 

Manisha: Yes, 

Sudipto : thank you. And if I may add, very 

Manisha: smart, 

Sudipto : happy da, and happy as, as celebrated, uh, across the country by people who commemorate the 1956 conversion of Abeka into Buddhism. Uh, right now, today, on this day, uh, there are about 40, 50 black people in a place called Dik Sha Boomi in Nur.

Uh, many of them have come to commemorate the conversion. Many of them have come to renew the vows and take fresh vows and all of that. So, 

Abhinandan: so that happened on 2nd of October as well? 

Sudipto : Uh, no, it happens on the last day of Dasra. 

Abhinandan: I see. Okay. So the, it coincides with the Sarah each time. Yeah. Oh, interesting. As 

Sudipto : vi So happy Ami and happy 

Abhinandan: as vi The beauty of [00:03:00] recording this is you always learn something new each time.

Thank you. So why did, uh, BAAP choose 

Sudipto : the Sarah 

Abhinandan: was then as a 

Sudipto : provocation, I would imagine, you know, but also his reasoning was that Ashoka Emperor Ashoka chose this day to embrace Buddhism. I see. Okay. Uh, vi, dmi, uh, in that frame is seen as Vijay over. Other things, including the ego and you know, also wi over obscurantism, wi over superstition, wi over supernatural things.

So on this day, uh, so the interesting thing is Dks Shabu is a few kilometers away from the RSS headquarters. Yes. Okay. And just a few kilometers away, these 40 lac people take these 22 vows, which talk about doing away with obscurantism, not praying to these a, b, C gods. And the best part is, um, the, the rules, the way they've been framed require the committee to invite the local MLA, the local MP and the cator.

[00:04:00] And they show up. And they show up. So Kar is there. Okay. And while he's standing there, while he's standing there, these 22 vows are being read out and he has to smile 

Manisha: and then go attend the RSS event and 

Sudipto : then go the R event. You, you've been here, Felicia? 

Manisha: No. Ran off of it. 

Abhinandan: Anywhere. 

Right. So, uh, with that, I'd also like to remind everyone it is Gandhi Genti.

So happy Gandhi Genti and like is my habit. I will start with an appeal for this new project that we are doing. The news minute and news run together. Urban India's elite takeover. Who do pedestrian spaces belong to in Indian cities? Increasingly not the public. While we see many bulldozers taking slums and other settlements off, or the readies of people who are selling to BA tour, et cetera, uh, in at least parts of Delhi.

If you walk around Delhi, you will see homes that cost between 10 to 80 [00:05:00] crows in some of the PSEs colonies, including on what used to be or but is now 

Josy Joseph: a j 

Abhinandan: uh, no, or road is now called, uh, a a PJ Road. Many of these people have taken over the. Pavement to make a little cabin for their guard or for their pots or just planted palm trees.

But those, that's not the, like a private garden, private gardens, uh, but that somehow is never bulldozed. So we are doing a series on this and we'll covering four cities at least. So here's a QR code, please scan it, contribute to this project. It's important. We also look at people like us and not only report on the very corrupt or the very vulnerable, but also the people who are comfortably, you know, um, breaking laws without consequences.

And of course we have a special, um, deal on the interview, right? 

Manisha: Yes. [00:06:00] Rupe Just in 99, you can watch it. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. In 99 rupees, because you got a lot of people saying that, please, we'd like to watch an interview. So here's a QR code for that. The links for all these in the show notes as well. You click on that 99 rupees, you can watch the interview.

Sudipto : Can we call it the most important interview of this generation considering, considering the fallout, considering how it has been received, what people are now considering doing, in quotes, thanks to these new revelations by this man. 

Abhinandan: I don't know. I, I mean, I actually have no metric, not 

Manisha: of the decade, but it's definitely very important.

That's 

Sudipto : a generation, this generation of, I dunno what 

Manisha: this generation of, 

Dhanya Rajendran: but this 

Manisha: year for 

Dhanya Rajendran: sure, this year for sure is one of the most important. Yeah. And also that, um, Mohan Gopal, professor Mohan Gopal has said that he's gonna do a curative petition. 

Sudipto : Yeah. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Um, there was an interview in Bar and Bench, I think, where he said that he's going to use the interview to more curative potential.

Sudipto : Mm-hmm. 

Dhanya Rajendran: I see. 

Sudipto : That's why I said, you know, it's going to trigger some very interesting developments. 

Josy Joseph: I don't, I, I don't know if it is the injury of the generation. I think it is another milestone in the way [00:07:00] India's intellectual degeneration is happening. I mean, that, that's, that's I think, more important because, uh, someone who can't even consistently articulate the judgment that he himself wrote and delivered is.

So I think, I think it's very, I mean, it, it's like the prime ministers stole claims. It's like the way they celebrate GST, it's the way our mainstream media sounds like idiots. So I think it's all part of the larger 10. So we should not isolate it, but I think it's very important because it's chiefest of India and the former CJI himself is, uh, on record articulating how, um.

Intellectually inconsistent degenerative that we have become. 

Dhanya Rajendran: So I'm like one of those subscribers, not non-subscribers who are consistently asking bin and then when are we removing this from the pay? The reason why I go to, there's another in Hindi platform in which he has given interview and yeah, that's God, less of 1 million views and everybody's praising saying, oh my God, what a brilliant interview.

What a brilliant speaker. I'm like, oh my God, what people should see this? [00:08:00] So every three days I'll text AB and saying, do you think we'll remove this from the paywall? Maybe after two, three weeks? 

Sudipto : And I think that's the standout, right? We know all of this is happening. Somebody at the build the cat right to, from that consideration alone, I mean this is quite something, you know, but because he's given other interviews and I don't think it's been interviews given, just 

Abhinandan: coming to that, this demonstrates, and this is again your victory.

Those of you who do support and subscribe and you know Danya is right. There is always this balance about. Impact and how wide an audience you can get, but how do you remain sustainable? Mm-hmm. And that balance is an important balance to maintain. You know, I forwarded one email to you of, you know, the person, if this gentleman has given 15 to 20 interviews, just one interview had impact.

Why? I mean, I refuse to believe all the other 14 or 15 people are idiots. They're not, they're smart people. I know many of them. They're intelligent people. The model doesn't allow them to really pin someone down. The news model does not allow that to [00:09:00] happen. So people are smart. Just like I said, not every broadcaster was, you know, a horrible person who wanted to compromise news media.

But if, if you're supposed to swim in the water. Yeah, to get to the other side, you will swim in that water. It doesn't matter how nice or not nice you are. 

Josy Joseph: Yeah. There are two things happening. One is the model itself where you can't ask hard questions because the advertiser, the government, you know, government is because advisor.

So you'll be pissing off many people and, and the pissing of actually happens after what you do. So you have to preemptively be sound and censored. So I think the, the intelligent people that you said we know who did the interviews are already censoring in their minds. Exactly. They're already censored.

Yeah. They're, but they 

Abhinandan: have to like, look at Thetan story that Basant Hasan a such a small state that has one person of India's population criminal. I spend a thousand CRS on ads and you see all those people who are, who win the, the, the money cluster. Who got that money? Money, yeah. Five eight [00:10:00] or seven cr You see how they live.

You see the. Is that what public money should be? 

Manisha: And this is at a time where the state has gone consistently. Every year there's been a tragedy or other landslides, cloud bursts, roads 

Josy Joseph: in, in fact, the Himalayan states are normal. It's about annual tragedies. There become consistent ongoing tragedies there.

Yeah. And there is massive, absolutely massive human migration happening to the downhills. They're leaving the hills being deserted and it's getting worse. And nobody's bother a thousand crow in five years. 

Abhinandan: What thousand Crows could 

Josy Joseph: have 

Abhinandan: done for, we're gonna be discussing the future of media and since we have such an eminent panel and some such very smart voices, and me also also smart voice, 

Dhanya Rajendran: very smart vr.

Abhinandan: You guys are very smart. I have, I I like, I, I always learned something new from Soto when I meet him. Johor is Ola guru. Josie 

Dhanya Rajendran: is like, is it filling my leg? 

Abhinandan: No, no. Josie. Although in age, he is one year younger than me, but [00:11:00] in Berg, he is my bimo man. 

What's, 

what's 

Manisha: like your 

Abhinandan: Hindi, 

Manisha: just because we're in is like your aura, aura.

Sudipto : Get, get,

Dhanya Rajendran: no, I don know Hindi, but it's not like I use UBA every day. Right. UBA is not a word 

Manisha: people would use usually, but yeah. Ruth 

Josy Joseph: is what? Punjabi No. Most of Hindis word there. No. From various parts. No. It's a great amalgam and 

Abhinandan: Manisha keeps me well-mannered and that's, 

Manisha: wow. That's my goal. Nice to keep you well-mannered.

Don't defame me here. 

Sudipto : So, uh, let's get on that note. I just wanna say that it's not about what they know, but what they can find out. I think that's what so much of journalism is about. We start with, I know, I don't know. It's the great intellectual position to start with. Like a Buddhist position. I don't know.

Yeah. Okay. And then you, so yeah. To their credit, I think they don't know, but they can find out. And that thing is the [00:12:00] besian whistles of who they are. That 

Abhinandan: was the first chapter of the dancing wou masters Virgin Mind. You cannot fill anything in a cup that's already full. Mm-hmm. First empty yourselves and then fill it with knowledge.

So on those profound thoughts, let's get to, its admiring you to the, 

Manisha: is this like 15 minutes of our great fear? Yeah, exactly. 

Abhinandan: Moving on to new, moving on to news. Moving on to what happened. Yeah. To News Red. Ill leave the 

Dhanya Rajendran: headlines. Actor, andt vk, chief Vijay Urges, I don't know if urge is the word. Vijay, tells Tamal, the chief Minister, MK Tarn, to act against him, not his party workers.

Over the September 27th Karu rally stampede that killed 41 people in his first video message after the incident, which I said, if you want vengeance, target me, not my men. And then he also expressed condolences over the loss of lives in the stampede. 

Manisha: Has it been received badly? The fact that he left immediately among people or it's, I think, I think that [00:13:00] was his 

Dhanya Rajendran: first mistake that he left.

Uh, the But would it have gotten worse had he stayed on? No, not just stayed on. I think if he had just simply stopped at the airport and said that I'm watching the news. I'm really shocked at what happened. Two words, right? Nobody's expecting you to give an entire speech, but he just left without talking.

He chennai again. He did not speak. Um, I was actually a bit surprised with this video that he put out because he was also in his movie character. I fell, okay, like if you want vengeance, you take against me, not my people. Because by then a lot of arrests, I think around four or five arrests had happened because lots of conspiracy theories were getting spun.

Um, that the stamping happened for other reasons. So anyway, now there is Aian committee, justice Aian committee is looking into it. Everybody is to be blamed Vijay for these, you know, bringing up. So basically there was one place in Karu where he was supposed to, uh, make a speech at two o'clock in the afternoon.

He does not reach there till seven, almost. I think 12. You're supposed to come. Some reports had it [00:14:00] since 10 people were waiting in the morning. Yeah, that's right. No, no, that's, people are waiting from the previous night. In fact, I was watching this interview in News 18, Tam Nadu, where the reporter's shocked because he's interviewing these people with young children, like 1-year-old, 2-year-old.

And they're very proudly saying the people have been waiting since last night because he and my child wants, like, how will a 1-year-old child know? But yeah, that's the kind of, uh, crowd which is waiting there. So when he comes from this place called normal to Karu, he brings with him 

Manisha: another set, another 25 to 

Dhanya Rajendran: 6,000 people.

So it's a stationary crowd and then a moving crowd just merges. Yeah. So it's like, you know. Immediately a liquid combination happens. And that's, there's a stand. This is exactly 

Manisha: what happened in Kmb also, that there were people waiting to bathe overnight and then there were newer people coming in the morning when the people who were waiting had not moved.

So this is just tragic that it happens place after place. And by then 

Dhanya Rajendran: people were tired because they had been waiting for so many years. Exactly. They were dehydrated. They were already fainting. Yeah. But the police also, they should have [00:15:00] expected that it's a weekend, it's Vijay, people are gonna come. It's not like your normal people, 

Abhinandan: et cetera, et cetera.

Dhanya Rajendran: I don't can even be bigger by seeing bigger and all that. He's big you 

Sudipto : metric. No. How do you judge that? Yeah. No, but Danya, see this one. Of course the AMI thing also how we are, well, 

Dhanya Rajendran: it's a combination, right? Even police have to be blamed because Yeah. First thing, why did you allow this crowd to come in?

You can now have press me saying that we told them not to come, but if you really wanted to stop them, you could have stopped them. Yeah. And. They also gave this one 20 feet road for him. On either side's people were there, so it was jam packed. And his vehicle is seven feet wide. What we're saying about Chin Swami Stadium?

No, 

Sudipto : just the way vi and the rest of them behave. But I was just, I don't know why I can't find words to just describe what I feel about this, but just can't ignore the fact that invariably it is a certain class of people who are dying and that in dying, in what? In what conditions? They're literally reaching for the stars in that image of this person who [00:16:00] can never, ever dream of touching that star.

And here we talking with stars on, you know, they're, it's just so thing in, you know, doing in that process, they die. 

Intro : And 

Sudipto : that shows the gap between the stars and the people and how our country has such. Contrast. No, I, 

Abhinandan: celebrity culture is a result of this gap, I suppose, but we can discuss that in the future of media because celebrities have a lot to do with that.

Dhanya Rajendran: Okay, so, uh, the next headline, the United States Government shut down most of its operations on the 1st of October after the White House in Congress failed to reach an agreement on federal funding before a scheduled deadline. The current impasse began after the Senate, which is the upper house of the Congress, rejected a short-term spending measure that would've kept government services afloat through November, 2025.

Okay. In Bar police shot Iha, a Milit Council District President Tarim in the leg after he allegedly fired them with the country mate pistol when they went to arrest him over clashes linked to the I love Mohammed posters, Rao. [00:17:00] Police said 17 more people were also arrested bringing the total arrest since September to 73, I learned Mohamed Protestor happening all over right now.

First of all, 

Abhinandan: I find it bizarre that you can be the yeah, arrested for just wearing a t-shirt. That's, I mean, it's bizarre. I dunno what and what is even more ridiculous than I was just telling Manish on the flight here to that we are not, we don't have concentration camps yet, but I'm just talking about the media.

The media is where it Radio anda was and where Hitler's Media was. You had anchors saying that, is this just I of Ham mother? Is this, they're trying to create the perfect storm? Is this something sinister? They're just coming up with, they're pulling out theories out of the ass. It is disgraceful what they're doing.

Manisha: And the start of it was so ridiculous. So there is this festival I something, um, that's where Muslim groups decided they were gonna put up posters. I love s Simple. [00:18:00] Some random Hindu groups. I don't even know. There's so many of them now. This Springer, we don't even know their names. Start protesting saying that, oh, this has never happened before.

So they're trying to, you know, outrage our sentiments by putting a poster they've never put, because I Love Mohammad is a new poster. It's very, you know. How can you love ma? Okay. And new things are only allowed for Hindu by the can have. DJs, they can have whatever they want, but newness must not come to any celebration that the Muslims are doing.

And then the police files an FIR and takes them seven days to explain what that FIR is. It is apparently they say it's not, I love ma, they didn't have permission to put posters there, but by that time you've already riled up people that boss. Now we can't even put up posters saying, I love Hammad. So the protests all over and protests are obviously always gonna get unruly.

Uh, you will have people who will, you know, do tomo, topo and all that. So just the start of it was ridiculous, I think. But it happened for the police to 

Dhanya Rajendran: even take it seriously. 

Abhinandan: Yeah, it happened 

Dhanya Rajendran: in Karna. Also in Davan. There was a, a communal altercation because somebody had an [00:19:00] Island Love Muhammad poster and someone opposed and started pelting stones.

Manisha: Why are they opposing it and why should the police take this? Seriously? The first ER should not have been filed. 

Dhanya Rajendran: I think one of the big dangers, maybe Josie can also pitch in is of course the police force across becoming 

Intro : Yeah. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Um, ized that the, they're 

Josy Joseph: fully politicized and I think, uh, it's very sad that we are seeing police forces across India being mere political tools and nothing more.

And it's, it's, it's, it's in a country where we also have some great, glorious traditions of great policing. But, uh, I think over the last 20, 25 years, what we are seeing is such fast degeneration that police in most parts of the country and goals look the same except for the uniform. I mean, it's police is mostly an organized exertion, racket in many ways, like national capital Delhi, uh, till about 10, 12 years ago or [00:20:00] 15 years ago.

Traffic police used to man traffic. Now, traffic police is there on the road mostly to extort money or jump in front of the cars and how 

Abhinandan: they get beaten up now. Yeah. You know, the, I dunno about your, uh, contacts and friends and the police, but the people I know, they say morale is an all time low in Delhi.

Every second or third day there is some videoing viral of cops getting bashed up on the Red Cross. You know, that fear has gone, you're gonna beat us up anyway. So it is so bad for the police themselves, not just for the, yeah, that's, yeah, that's part, 

Sudipto : uh, since you bring this up, I wanted to ask you, I've just come back from reporting in DU and once again, there's a lot of allegation against the cops.

One in this communal kind of divide. They take the majority side, and that's the allegation. But the point here that some people were making is that they have now started, started reporting to Delhi. The IPS card is reporting to people in Delhi. They're hoping for these plum positions. Is there some truth in this?

Do you see this in other states? 

Josy Joseph: There are two kinds of IPS offices [00:21:00] today in the country. One are careerists who are doing almost everything that's possible for them to suck up to the center because home ministry has so much of power over their careers. Then the others are the more professional IPS officers who are in states or organizations and who are largely been quiet and, and, and they are in powerful positions in several opposition states.

But in the, in the BJP rule states. And their force is, uh, uh, reporting and almost being controlled by the home ministry. Uh, in fact, uh, there is a friend of. I was both me and in up who was, uh, suspended for, for not, not suppressing voters. That's a level of politicization that's happening. So, I mean, I don't know where we are headed, but yeah, there is a new RA model of, uh, politicization of security forces.

But I can tell you what, what you said is it's new, it's, no, it's 

Abhinandan: completely true. [00:22:00] Uh, I, and I can tell you with the certainty, uh, because I know the parties involved in one state at least, which is the BJP rule state. The DG was removed because he had become too close to the chief minister and the center did not find that, okay.

Dhanya Rajendran: No. Here's one of the first AYA held. He clearly said that the biggest threats that he's facing is a saffron issue of the police force police that he doesn't know how to deal with it. Okay, we have to move to the next headline. The Action Commission released the final voters list for Bihar after special revision, leaving out 47 lack names.

The updated list ahead of the upcoming assembly polls in October, November is available on the EC website for voters to check or download. Yeah. So I think people are still doing their research on Yeah. Yeah. Who has been left out and, 

Josy Joseph: but aside, I should tell you something about IITK decided to award Ganish Kumar, its Distinguished Alumni award of year.

Oh. So he's joining a rank of some of the biggest innovators and, [00:23:00] uh, investment bangers and media CEOs of the world have not been a CEO e 

Abhinandan: education department is increasing, including curriculum history book where RSS chapter will be there and how great they was. 

Josy Joseph: Oh yeah. I think, I think we are in a great race to this, what we are talking about.

San Richard also, I mean, uh, what Elian commission. The one thing is very clear from the data. Uh, three, four things have been happening over the last year, starting somewhere around 2013. You can see in some pockets there are efforts to add, delete, uh, orders that kept going at a certain pace before there also there was happening in India.

That's not that BJ Palone is a culprit. Congress has done it several times over, but what's what we are seeing is by 2018, this trend is picking up and there is large scale addition, especially of voters in certain areas. And, uh, by 2024 s elections, I think what the opposition is saying, there is a great amount of truth to it because, uh, [00:24:00] the, because if you, I mean, it's the first time that we really hit ground is in maa.

The reporters hit ground is in MAA and in Bihar in both the places that the pattern is very clear that large number of addition of people, uh, either there. People with the same name, same guardian name, around the same age, who have two different numbers or three different numbers. They have two different addresses, but it can't be that so many ab secretaries that around the country, right?

I mean, it's, it's far too many for coincidence and BHA especially, it's very visible now because the reporters are on the ground. So I think at some point the Elian Commiss has been fully hijacked. By the ruling dispensation, 

Abhinandan: but the pressure has worked Right since they did change their, um, 

Josy Joseph: no way of, no, but yeah.

But, but the only thing that is standing between India becoming a total majoritarian state and what our democracy is existing is the public retain, public racist voice. The institutions have given up. They're given up. No, it's a shameful institutional [00:25:00] system here. 

Sudipto : Can we also celebrate the fact that this is true?

The f for the longest time, and since at least 2012, we've believed that there is a storm upon us this apo. I know where this biblical storm that we have, you know, this is the s is the hindutva thing, is now a storm flood, which is going take us all away. This is great because it shows that they're doing all of this Ugg to win elections, and it's not like they have millions and millions 

Josy Joseph: of Yeah, yeah.

So in, in India, every 20 years we have this, uh, communal wave that rises up and then it goes down. So I think it has peaked in India. But the stem, the problem is that the, the, the. State institutions have been captured to an extent we have never seen in the past. So we don't know what the fallout is going to be including in the military?

Dhanya Rajendran: No. Like, like for example, this Rahul Gandhi, two press meets that we discussed, uh, in HTA also after the first Maha, they put a press meet this Ganish Kumar had that horrible press meet, uh, in response. But after Alan. They never spoke and they change. Yeah. But because in [00:26:00] the a thing, the Gandhi clearly talks about how the CID in Karnataka writes to the election commission.

And the election commission is not responding. So it's not be between a politician and the EC two institutions. Institutions between two institutions. So they don't have a reply. So why did he not hold a big press meet like last time? Because he does not have a reply for it. 

Abhinandan: Right. And also, I mean, I'm not a fan of the man, but this one, which man statistic that, um, pk, um, had given, oh, who gets paid 11 crows for two hours, for two hours of advice, he got paid 11 crow.

Phenomenal. But one data set that he said that it's at its peak, at its strongest. The Congress had a total of 3000 legislative seats in the country. Outta all the states. Sub larke, there're about three. Uh, there're about, I dunno what is it, 4,000 or whatever the number was. But at its peak Congress across the country had 3000 legislative seats.

BJP at its peak, which is a couple of years ago, had 16, 

Sudipto : 1800, 

Abhinandan: 16 11 or 1800. So [00:27:00] this whole thing that, you know, when they show the map, the whole country's got saffron if you take granular data. No. They have just captured the institutions to make it seem like they've got everybody. They don't. 

Josy Joseph: I think, I think that's the only job that Mr.

Moia has done in his life. No propaganda. Yeah. Propaganda knows that. Well, as Ji said, he's the greatest peer manager around. Right. He, he's just doing it. But I think he is overdone it because I think you can see the fatigue, the fatigue, uh, among the industrialist. It's, you can see it among the bureaucracy.

You can see it among the Ahad news. Ahad. Mul is why I think somewhere there is going to be, but yeah. But I think, I think the. What is holding up the democracy as of today's, the public protest, whether it's social media or whether it is on streets, that's all thing. Institutions and subscribers 

Abhinandan: who pay to keep news free.

That's it. And you're part of that team? Yeah, that Here's a QR code. Buy joint subscription today. Be the bulwark. Ah, 

Josy Joseph: bull bulwark. Bulwark. 

Abhinandan: Bulwark. Between [00:28:00] totalitarian and undemocratic regimes and true democracy. You'll be the wall. Yeah. Scan. Scan this QR code, or click on the link in the show notes below.

Sudipto : And if you're rolling your eyes, think of other forms of news, which come with five minute ad breaks. So yeah, don't roll your eyes. So just, this is an important announcement. Just 30 seconds. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Are you saying that people are rolling their eyes when No, 

Sudipto : no. They might be some. Okay. Now, 

Dhanya Rajendran: P ODI said that artists had immensely suffered at the hand of the British and his arms.

For his belief of nation first. He also said that RSS members had been jailed during the famous tunnel. He released a special commemorative postage stamp and a coin to mark the centenary of the RS. 

Manisha: Yeah. Which is today. And there was a moan B speech also. 

Abhinandan: Right. And the next headline is Sona Wangchuk has been sent to Ur Central Jail under the National Securities Act after being detained in lay of the September 24 protest, demanding statehood and constitutional rights for Adak.

And as we are recording this, I think his wife still hasn't got to see him yet. And, [00:29:00] uh, his wife, Gitanjali Amo, wrote to pre the president asking for husband's unconditional release. And she's put out this video, very brave lady, I must say, where she said, this is how we treat our innovators. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Hmm. So put a very interesting tweet.

I saw that. So this dawn event. Yeah. One of the things in the NSA, um, why they slapped NSA on him is because he went for an event by the Dawn newspaper. So the was the same event. She said that even there, Sona Monk had praise the Modi and people, they were not even very aware of who he was when she was the one who went and told him that he's the character in three idiots and all that.

So she has said that, how could you use this as the excuse? And she was rightly pointing out how the media has been behaving 

Manisha: and climate change. It was a climate change conference. The funniest thing is in the FCRA cancellation for the NGO. The reason is that they were studying sovereignty because you know, that's something nefarious.

They were studying food security and sovereignty. [00:30:00] So they've taken out food, food security and, and put sovereignty. Even though even if I'm just studying sovereignty, doesn't mean I'm out to break India or whatever. I don't even know how that connection is drawn, but just imagine how farcical this is just doing organic farming, their food security sovereignty, and the level you're studying sovereignty.

Sudipto : The irony is that they had an opportunity to win the hearts and minds of people, not just in lei, but also in Cargill. And people in Cargill, Muslims in Cargill, tribal Shia Muslims have always had a dissenting voice when it comes to this con question of Azadi Kash. Exactly. Yeah. K. They were a huge support base for the Indian Army.

You know more about it, Josie. Speak about Please. Le right was turning right wing, and I, I don't, I have to say this in a respectful way and the respect comes from what Sonna has been doing over the last few months and all of that. And I, the reason I have to put this caveat is because before that, like you pointed out yourself, Sonna was somebody who was [00:31:00] taking an ambivalent position on some very, very horrible things that the regime was doing.

And at that time, he was trying to do this. I'm a good guy, you know, I'm just about the environment and all of that. And now we see this and what does it do? It turns that snake upon people who were actually a part of their constituency and saying that you also are now anti international U are now secessionist.

Whereas they could have been a force against secessionist tendencies in that region. 

Josy Joseph: I, I, I think the problem with this government is that they only see black and white. You know, they can't see the gray. And I think, uh, you know, after the China War in 62, uh, the government officially decided that we will not build infrastructure along the border because then Chinese will come faster into India.

And that policy was only reversed, uh, 10 years ago. No, during my mounting garman because of some smart officials. Uh, it's when they were acting on Lei, the way they were acting, I was, I thought that this sounded so much like that because, you know, it's, it's managing the border, especially [00:32:00] border of India with so many disputes and such.

You know, it's, it's crazy. I mean, I don't think any country in the world has such diverse border populations, right. That management cannot be done by what they did. And it's stupid. And I think it may be, I actually, it's, it's, it may be a Himalayan blunder, uh, in the making if they don't QE correct their position.

Abhinandan: I mean, I, I don't know about how it'll play out, but what really distresses me is when, um, news anchors, you know, pushed this line of anti-national, this was one of those guys shot has defended this country. Yeah, 

Manisha: yeah. 

Abhinandan: There Ishi and these jokers sitting in studios. They are, I mean the, the lad Dark Scouts are such important part of what happened in Cargill, uh, 

Manisha: that is a backbone of the army there literally.

And his 

Abhinandan: father is LA Dark Scouts, right? One of the young men who's been killed and, and I'm on WhatsApp groups or [00:33:00] all these guys are anti-national. They had been radicalized by Ban Morons have been radicalized by the, you know, jackasses in studios. That is. And when, when will one have an opportunity to call these guys out?

Because on something like Media Rumble, you know, I know for a fact no Legacy Media person will have the courage to take questions. And the When Media Rumble started, the whole idea was one day you, let's create a safe space no matter how much you and disagree. I remember from the first me ramble, I had a photograph of Al and Jgi Smile and Wave Guys.

Smile and Wave. Let's question each other. Let's take questions. Let's, none of them have the guts to come. In the last seven years of Media Rumble, four times Legacy channel anchors have agreed to come and last minute have canceled because there's no way their organizations won't let them come. And some of them will not have.

So was with me on a panel at JLF, he didn't show up here. [00:34:00] They don't wanna be questioned. I wanna know. Take questions. No, if you are so sure of what you're saying. You know, expose yourself to some scrutiny as well. They just don't have the courage to do that. And that is what I wanna see. I want them to be questioned.

Josy Joseph: No, I think, uh, and then, you know, many of the people that are the loud faces today, most of them are our contemporaries, and we all grown up with them professionally. It's not that they radiates, they're very, some of them are very smart guys, 

Abhinandan: that some of them are also idiots. 

Josy Joseph: I mean, OO of, of course. All all.

Exceptions. Exceptions. Some of us also are idiots. Yeah. But yeah. But I, I, I think two things are happening. One is that, uh, money talks and by silence, and many of these people have been really bought off by power 

Dhanya Rajendran: also. 

Josy Joseph: Yeah. Power, I mean, money, power. Or the second is fear has its own way of manifesting.

Many of those people, it's just fear manifesting in them. And then they want to, if, if they're logged in the room, they will abuse all these bubbles. I know them, I know [00:35:00] some of the mandates who will do that, but the fear is so much so overwhelmed them as overwhelmed bureaucracy. So much judiciary, so much that we are seeing this, I mean, what we are talking about the whatever the, the degeneration.

So 

Abhinandan: they're basically cowards. 

Josy Joseph: Yeah, of course. Cowards, I mean, you know. I don't know. I, I'm not big fan of using words like words, heroes, you know, courage, bravery and all that. It's just that each situation, we respond separately. Many of these people are good people here. They're all, they used be good, kind human beings who have been groomed into almost like, you know, uh, jihadis for, uh, the lost course.

Abhinandan: Yeah. They are the ones who been radicalized rather than other others. Yeah. 

Josy Joseph: They have been radicalized and they are the ones who have blood on their hands, and they're the ones who have a lot of answering to do, because it's not the mohi or the Michel world who will have, the people will give them the answers.

One day when there's a feral issues happening, 

Manisha: people are already giving answers. And I think that is one thing. They are so detached from the reality of how they're perceived by, I would say, most of Indian audiences today. And it's sad [00:36:00] actually, whenever there's a protest, Nepal also, you see Nepal reporters from these channels are under severe threat when they're on the ground, when they're Indian, these people to the ground.

And this purely because the anchors, you go anywhere more than the politicians today. They abuse the media. First thing would be the media. They're demonizing us. They're not raising our issues. That girl late more than the government, they 

Josy Joseph: expect. That's what they expect. Journalists to behave in a more neutral and fair manner, and to be the voice of the people.

That is where the people are angry. People know that politicians can be, and that anger is 

Manisha: clear out there for everyone to see. It's dangerous now for their own reporters who head to the ground. One last headline. 

Abhinandan: Mm-hmm. One last 

Dhanya Rajendran: over 10 days after Singer Zin Go's death are some police's arrested. His manager, Shar Sharma and the Northeast India Festival organizer.

Sha Kanu. Hanta. What? What is happening? Yeah. It's hard to say, but it's taken back. I and I, 

Abhinandan: we were just discussing, I mean, we'll have to speak to someone there, but the [00:37:00] organizer of the festival, I mean, someone told me he had some preexisting condition, which meant he should not have been swimming. Now, who accompanied him is the event organizer responsible for.

How someone spends leisure time. I don't know. I guess the police will figure it out. But 

Josy Joseph: I mean, there are two parts, which one is his death? The other is what happened after the death because a friend of mine from Maam is telling me that these people have been arrested now have very strong political links in leisure.

Yeah, there's, 

Abhinandan: yeah, that's one angle that was also told to me that there is, I mean it's become very shrine and his legacy was, you know, rejection of cost, rejection of religion, et cetera. So anyway, let's see how it works out. So those are the headlines. Once again, here's a QR code. Please scan support by joint subscription of NewsOne News Minute page to Cape News three.

Now, what we are gonna be discussing here in Bangalore on this intersection of News Minute, south Central and News Laundry, hafta and Josie [00:38:00] is the future of media. Where do you see it going? Just some predictions of in the next decade or two. Whether it is content, whether it is how it's collected, what are the dramatic changes you see happening in news media?

Josy Joseph: I think two, three things are very clear. The legacy media, the newspapers, the television channels, they're all dying out faster than we expect more because of the technology televisions. Uh, for example, I don't want to take the names of the newspapers. Uh, at least someone who has access to the printing numbers of two major newspapers told me they lost subscription of 30, 40%.

Wow. That's the kind of problem that's happening. They're discovering it up because desperation holder and, and then. Their balance sheets do not reflect the reality because this has coincided with the last 10 years of this massive jump in PR by the corporates [00:39:00] and the state governments. What the story that you people it about, uh, that's a similar sort of most states and not just BJP.

Yeah. Even, yeah. All also had to use ads enough. So there have been balance sheets have been artificially protected, but the real businesses, the real numbers are dramatically going. So what's gonna replace it? That's a question. Secondly is the television channel, there are still businesses not anymore sustainable.

They're also, if you see they're all shifting aggressively YouTube, uh, what is gonna replace, I think what. What, what you people are doing in Newsmen News Country, to me, is a great laboratory of experiment. You are actually bringing journalism back as the intellectual property for which people should pay.

And that's what Gandhi said. That's what evident is to do. The first Bibles were printed and sold, only the rich could buy because Bible are sold not cheap. It's not being thrown away. Mm-hmm. Right in, in fact, uh, when I was reading your newsletter on the email this morning, I was thinking back because I was looking at the Gandhi's South African [00:40:00] newspaper.

It used to have these boxes said, you know, pay five one US for one year, five, you know, 20. And us for, well, I mean he was a great, uh, subscription guy. Yeah. Ba ba. So, uh, what I think is going to happen is if you look at New York Times or Financial Times and economists, I think three great examples of traditional journalism being get, making more money than we all expected.

Today, the digital subscription revenues of all these three have short through the roof, right? Mm-hmm. Beyond their expectation. And in fact, I think the economists charges the same price for digital subscription and print it because they just say that Why do you want it? Right? But I think one of the gaps that is needs to be filled by, by the independent media people like us, is that there is a massive shift of content consumption to Instagram, to micro content, et cetera, et cetera.

That innovation needs to be speeded up by [00:41:00] all of us because we can't sit here and say, you know, we will talk after and you come and pay. The fact is that we only get 20, 30,000, 40,000 people to pay or listen to us. Whereas in a country of online 54, we should be reaching a hundred core people. So I think there is an urgency for independent media to one, innovate on content side second, to be more aggressively expand so that.

The vacuum that the mainstream media is solely creating can be taken out. 

Abhinandan: So one quick question before I go around the panel, and please be ready. I'm gonna come to you in the future of what you think it's gonna be, speculate, experiment. One problem that we have discussed and half often enough, and now we've seen it play in real time, is this, uh, the audience that you are serving will pay for, you know, to keep you afloat.

And if that audience. Sees itself being scrutinized, it may not rise to the [00:42:00] occasion like it should now. Usually when we put out a special project, yeah, if it's to do with elections, you know, it gets topped up. Most of the times have to do with something. Even that, you know, slum demolition, I guess people's philanthropic side feels, 'cause people who have the money to pay are not the ones who are BPL, but most the people who are hardest hit by policy, hardest hit by corruption, hardest hit by anything are people who are closer to poverty than the rest.

But the people who pay us are the ones who are fairly well off. Now this project, which is looking at how the richer urban India is taking over public spaces, has collected, it's in its third or fourth week total of weight, like 75,000 to like 60,000 is what we've collected means it's less than a third or just about a third now.

Subscription is the future. And subscription will, and again, the same logic applies. It's not like [00:43:00] we are good or bad. We may want to do a lot of stuff. And right now we have the luxury because we have, you know, maybe between, you know, the Nias team and our team, maybe 1890 salaries to pay, if we are 2000 salaries to pay the model would determine what we did.

We would not serve the poor. We would not scrutinize ourselves. We'd only be doing tech stories. We'd only want Bangalore techie subscribing to us. Wha how do you think? Because, and that is where, at one level, the tendering things, you know, obituaries. I was just, today I was, uh, discussing with Manish on the, at the airport that what's the purpose of obituaries in newspapers, not obituaries people.

So and so left us five years ago. We miss you. Why is he reading the paper? But fine, I get they're getting something. I think it's just, it's a dumb concept that we miss you and we are putting an ad in the paper. If it's coming from there, then the purpose of that revenue, where it's coming from, why they're putting it, is different.

So you can put it into a [00:44:00] news item that will serve the poor. But if that quid pro quo, I will pay for news that, that I, that is self-indulgent. Whether it's self-indulgent that, oh, I'm so nice, I'm paying for poor people, or I hate corrupt people, who pays for that news that we should be able to send a reporter to the most backward of places, which are typical of audience hasn't even heard of 

Josy Joseph: and report from there.

Number one is that I think this model of where we do the appeal, collect money to do a project is not scalable. 

Intro : Okay. 

Josy Joseph: Okay. Second is, uh, I don't think, uh. We have an SAV in newsman New Zealand. We have broken out of the echo chamber of the standard liberals or leftists, whatever we call it. So the the the, the challenge before us, can we break out this model to a hundred million people?

Can we take it [00:45:00] to a billion people? How do we reach them to reach there? It is not just about being doing honest journalism, it's also about adopting to platforms and evolving technologies, which is very expensive game. Can you be that Instagram handle which will have a a hundred million views every month?

Can you be the YouTube channel, which will have a a hundred million views? That's a question that we need to, you need to pond over to do that. You need big investments now that big investments are not happening in India because of the political 

Abhinandan: and actually had it not been the fear of politics, 

Josy Joseph: you would've had the money.

You would've have the money. You know enough 

Abhinandan: people want to invest. 

Josy Joseph: That's right. But they're just scared. That's right. That's one. The second parties that. Are we doing? We are not capable of doing enough news that is critical to the survival of the businesses, the politics, the people around. You get the point when I'm saying this, for example, this entire conversation, Ani, is, athani is not just doubling to us.

The step it is doubling all the corporates. [00:46:00] If you look at the investments being done by Indian corporates, it has dramatically gone down because one of the thing is that they're fearing the state. They think that if you invest more, the more tax harassment and will be coming across as Ani. Every 

Abhinandan: large corporation, one of the largest paint companies in the country, their stock price plateaued and fell because rumor had it, Adani was getting anything that Adani wants to buy other than saying, okay, forget it, we are out.

So, 

Josy Joseph: so what I'm saying is that we are still not capable enough to do stories on a consistent basis, which matters to Mr. Ramani in the morning or Mr. The Tata group in the morning. 'cause we are just, how many dozen people? In a country of 150 crow, you are just 50, 60 people, right? Or total, all of India might have maybe 200 journalists doing independent journalism.

And of that, how many would've the skill to constantly do it? But you know what I mean? Like I work closely with some of these international publications. I mean, I was just speaking to New York Times guys, you know the amount of [00:47:00] resources they have. Yeah, yeah. It's insane that, that's insane, right? That's built over the case.

When I see the resources though, it is, it's next level. So, so what, what I think might be the breakout model is that maybe we should do the Gandhian way of doing the Newsland news minutes in languages in very low cost model. Find students who can volunteer to build your Instagram handles, find, you know, volunteers or, or maybe you know, to start internship programs where you can do YouTube shorts, this, that, you know, because we have no option but to adopt, we are not adopting enough fast.

That's a big problem. But. I don't know. I mean, it's, it's a 

Abhinandan: huge collaborations individual and institutional. Dan, what do you say? 

Dhanya Rajendran: No. So we are new to subscription itself compared to news Laundry. We have been, I think doing for two and a half, three years, um, mean not even two and two years. I guess. I do agree that some of it is not scalable in the sense that, um, let's say we have a topic and we choose it and we ask people to pay money.

One of my biggest learnings has been environment. Everybody's [00:48:00] always asking us, why are you guys not reporting an environment? Or Why are you guys not reporting on climate change? But that is one fund. People hardly pay. And it's always surprised me. The same with girls always 

Manisha: called you the most on climate.

Yes, yes. Why aren't you 

Dhanya Rajendran: doing it? Yeah. And this whole, um, three examples I'll give you the second one is this whole pavement thing, right? Because people across urban, urban places are complaining that their payment are, you know, not good, they don't have enough infrastructure. But the series was a hit.

People are watching it a lot in Delhi, which is where Berlin then thought we should replicate in other, uh, uh, places. We have already run a bang Bangalore story from Ingar we are doing from Chennai and all that. But surprisingly, maybe because, you know, we are showing how Ingar, for example, it is the middle class and the richer people who are just like encroaching the road and it is not the vendor.

Uh, but the vendors are the ones who are always, uh, ousted. The third example I want to give is a story that we had done last year. I think it was in January. Uh, four reporters, two from Newsland and two from [00:49:00] Newsmen. This is the first time and we took the entire donation list. Of the BJB and we sat and compared, uh, how many of those companies, which made huge donations were rated by the income tax or the CBI just before they donated.

And ha, we also check have they donated in the past? They haven't. They don't donated to anybody. But you know, somebody who donated to Congress is suddenly given to BJB because they had a rate and sometimes the donation come the next day or like one week later. They're not subtle 

Abhinandan: about it. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Yeah, they're not subtle about it at all.

And that story I think was pathbreaking because when the electoral bond data came out, everybody immediately knew that what they had to check for is how many rated were giving money. Right? Right. But I know that story was behind the paywall. People were sharing it like crazy, but people were not subscribing to read that story.

They just read the. Intro part. And they knew, okay, we had 50 companies. But that's sad, right? I mean, look, we're showing you how people who are building dams, [00:50:00] people who are building all sorts of infrastructure, uh uh, or you know, people who own hospitals. Like there was this hospital, Hyderabad, which paid crows after they were raided.

They're all paying governments money. And you're not talking about just bgp, you're talking about so many partners, 

Abhinandan: right? People 

Dhanya Rajendran: you would think that people who love democracy, who love independent media, liberal media, progressive media, are going to immediately pay no. So I sometimes don't understand how this is scalable, and I just look up to news, laundry and think that if they could crack it, we will crack it.

But you 

Abhinandan: don't know right now, while you said all that in post-production, you'll go a QR code next to your face throughout that entire, not on your face, next to your face. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Ingredient. Put, put TM QR code. Can we have I 

Abhinandan: you and there'll be a red thing. Now's your chance. Now's your chance. Ha. Yes. You'll be doing that, huh?

Dhanya Rajendran: Yeah, 

Abhinandan: right? 

Noted. 

Josy Joseph: No, but there is also. Fatigue and people are, see, when Uri very interestingly once said about emergency, that every morning that they got up, they didn't, when how long it's going last. Indians are [00:51:00] in that state of mind, we're tired, average, in average, you know? Yes, 

Dhanya Rajendran: I agree. There's a fatigue.

That 

Josy Joseph: fatigue. And people are saying that when this going to end, because in what is a democracy? In the democracy, if you're doing investigative journalism, it should have been back, judiciary should take, so notice, you know, people like me used to have investigations where I code is taking, so notice taking action, getting people in jail.

Now nothing happens. Nothing happens. So what's the point? 

Dhanya Rajendran: Now you're blamed for doing the investigation saying, who's paying you to do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Abhinandan: yeah. That's so much. There's no impact. So the, 

Sudipto : no, this theory that I picked up, uh, when I was in advertising as a copywriter, my boss, uh, said that, you know, in positioning, we always have to figure out the positioning of a, what is the position a certain product occupies in the minds of the person who you're selling to.

You can either be everything to everybody, which is like a. Back in the day, you were everything to everybody. That's the only source. You can be something to everybody, which is like at times of India or you can be everything to somebody. And that I discovered, Danya, I shared this story with you. I think you guys also know about it.

I went to [00:52:00] Marrot to pick up a, a bunch of cricket bats. Okay? And I went there pretending, I don't know Hindi. Because I wanted to check who's gonna cheat me. And sure enough, there are a lot of people who were trying to cheat me, you know, and all of that. And I listened to all of that. And then I quietly came and sat next to this, uh, chai shop and I was sitting over there and this two guys asked me, cricket ho, uh, bat.

And I said, yeah, well also dose comes and what do you do? Ika somewhere? I squeaked it. I'm a journalist. And they asked me, which journalist Ra. Figure that I'm not goi journalist. And then they're like, which outlet? I said, news minute. And they said, mm, sun. Hey, they said news, laundry. And they just jumped.

Subscribers, subscribe. We are subscribers. That guy turned out we are subscriber, Manisha and ab, and the new guys must hear this. I wish UL was here because those are three names that came up. Pop on their head minds saying, Manisha, Atul, you know, and then there are other names and all of that. And what I have gathered from that is how [00:53:00] much what we do means to one person sitting in a place like Marrot, you know?

And that's something to everybody. I mean, uh, everything to somebody position is a very important position to consider. And I ask you to consider this given that there is de respondence over. Oh, well we are not making as many subscribers because there's fatigue. But also I think one thing to be proud of is retention.

We may not be doing a lot of acquisitions, like our growth might not be happening at the rate which we would like to have seen, but retentions, right? People are holding onto these outlets like. That's their voice. And last point I wanna say, and this is again based on what I picked off of when I went to Delhi, I've met this former colleague of mine who was in Jazeera, um, called Fasel Hamud.

He's today the press minister in the Bangladesh embassy. Right. A journalist like us. And I want you guys to take this very seriously, okay? They may become a time when you will be asked. People in this room, people sitting outside, our colleagues might be asked upon to [00:54:00] lead the nation that is born out of all of this journey.

This apocalypse is gonna pass. Then you don't look at me like that. 

Dhanya Rajendran: I'm the MA prime minister. No, I'm 

Sudipto : thinking of you as at least ARD mp. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Hello? 

Sudipto : No, wait, wait, wait. No, no. Hold on. Hold on. From 

Dhanya Rajendran: Prime Minister to ard, mp 

Sudipto : MP for PM you have to become MP first. No. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Ah, okay. Fine. Not necessary. 

Sudipto : Not necessary. But guys, I'm telling you, the most preferred leaders across time have been reluctant leaders, people who didn't want that position.

And this might be thrust upon some of, uh, you that's smile like that. Those smile leather. Because, because after this fat fatigue passes, there will be a period of a lot of ery, how many 

Abhinandan: football or so 

Sudipto : up, up about you specifically. Can I just finish this? This point, since you bring this up and you're laughing at this, don't forget you were part of the India against corruption, so therefore we are political people.

We are political people. We have taken a position and I'm saying that there will be rain and you know, greenery after this period is over. [00:55:00] After the so-called fa van is 

Dhanya Rajendran: iron minister. 

Sudipto : Yeah. Fascism. There will be greater funding. Ra if we are, I somehow see it as bus. Bus. This rain has to stop. The sun has to come out.

We will live again. And that will to interest. 

Dhanya Rajendran: I'm not desperate or anything. I'm just saying that the fatigue, I feel bad for those bunch of people who they're feeling responsible to actually keep us floating. Sustained. I wish the population will grow. I can see their fatigue. How many to pay to how many times to pay to, and they feel responsible.

Right? They're like, every time you give a call, they want to give. 

Josy Joseph: I, I should add one thing about the, while the fatigue remains, uh, it's a very interesting phenomenon that I've been noticing for. I'm sure you must, at least a few people that I know who have a lot of money are getting very restless. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Please redirect them.

No, their 

Josy Joseph: problems, they can't give you money. No, they can't give money to anonymous. Right. But they're getting very restless because they realize that we are, again, losing a decade. 

Intro : Hmm. 

Josy Joseph: Right. I mean, if you lo [00:56:00] in Bombay, if you talk, talk to the top corporates, the, the Cold War out there is very clear.

Nobody wants to, it is just that I, I'm surprised no media's writing about it. The kind of anger and angst against mohi among the corporates. That's ato No brainer to be done. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. But again, who will do it? 

Sudipto : Can I say that that person who has a pot full of money who can't share that money with us is gonna come after this passage ago.

But the ones who are keeping us alive is that bad seller in Yeah. Merit. Who's giving us 500 rupees Muslim. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. You know, and I forgot, tell this one thing. He, we hugged and he's like, Ko, I said Ko, uh, 'cause he's a Muslim and me, I'm a journalist in today's India, and he, I'm okay husband.

He's okay. Oh my goodness. I mean. 

Abhinandan: That's such a, such a sweet story. Lovely story. But no, 

Manisha: I have so many such stories every time I go on the ground, and that's what makes me really hopeful about everything that we do. Akur, I remember elections, we were there again, young kids, young boys. Two of them come over and [00:57:00] say, subscribers, we've supported the center.

Center and come home for breakfast. So we go in the morning, we have breakfast with them and I asked him, I said, so what have you liked? You've put in money, you've supported us. Which stories did you like? He said, we are not watching anything because it's very depressing. But I was like, but you know, watching anything, but you've paid for it.

He said, Hey, we are just paying for it. You can go ahead, do it. That's what I said, that response people feel, but we don't, we we don't watch. It's too depressing. It's too polarizing. It's too, so I think that, and again, even for people who don't pay, I think the anger against media is actually very real.

There is a great despondency, but at the same time, there's also great hunger for organizations that talk about their issues and genuinely really engage with them. And people are very excited to have that. And they support that with everything that they can. Sometimes it's a, like, it's a click it, sometimes it's their money.

And I think that gives me a lot of hope just to think about the future of media. I've actually been thinking a lot about this, uh, since the whole Nepal revolution happened. My window to that [00:58:00] revolution were reels in Instagram and there's this one guy, Harry Jackson, who's a British travel, uh, he makes travel logs.

He landed up in Nepal. He's got a channel called, I Hate the cold, therefore I guess he's traveling in Nepal and all these places. He's got 30 million views and he's basically, he's become accidental reporter on the internet. That's what he's known as. He is, he has the craziest of raw footage. He's showing you how it's all unfolding.

And I don't think there could be a better journalistic documentary on that day of that event than what this guy does. He just, he just brings Nepal to your screen. And I was just thinking as an audience that actually today a lot of, we are living in an, I think we're living in a fields world. Everyone wants to feel something, whether it's from our politics, whether it's from the religion, our, you know, or our, you know, movie stars or our cricket.

We wanna keep feeling and we don't necessarily have the tools. And [00:59:00] I think again, that's because of capture of the media, because of polarization, because of strong men taking part, we don't necessarily feel to be critical about things, uh, be discerning about things and. I think that is traditionally where journalism comes in.

So I was thinking that while this is great, that there's this travel logo, he's giving me the most craziest, unedited raw footage that really gives me the feels. He's not equipped as a journalist to really go there and tell me what is really happening. Do we even know the number of PMs that this country has seen?

He can trigger emotions, 

Abhinandan: what, but can't inform you. And 

Manisha: that is a very important aspect that we do as journalists. But I think people 

Dhanya Rajendran: are unable to differentiate. They can't. But I think between the, the two now, 

Manisha: but I think that's also a little bit of our fault, uh, in innovating ourselves while we have the training to be critical and to give people the critical tools to analyze the situation.

At the end of the day, I think what journalism will have to do more and more ahead is just give people a framework to think about things. Uh, whether it's a airplane crash or it's an [01:00:00] operations, or it's our India, you know, India America relations because there's too much fields everywhere and it makes us feel good.

But there's another field that you can get on your reel. So journalists I think, have a very important role in the future because we are only, we are the only people who are actually equipped to tell people, give them context, history, perspective, variations, shades. 

Dhanya Rajendran: But I feel like I can actually sense the confusion for a viewer, right?

For example, in Alam there is the Marona and Malali, which millions of people watch. Okay, so YouTube channel will come website. Yeah. I don't even know how to define that person anymore. But for somebody who watches, I mean, I, long ago you could have called maybe yellow journalism or, uh, what is it? Tabloid or whatever, but it's sensational.

It has, you don't know what is right, what is wrong, what is false, what is true, how does a normal viewer differentiate that this is, he's also on YouTube. We are also on YouTube. He also was a journalist, uh, with the mainstream media. I, I sometimes feel like they don't understand, 

Abhinandan: but, but this problem [01:01:00] actually, it, it's not just at the news level.

It goes all the way to the top. I'll just explain, but you know that you're too heart stories and you know that. So, um, it energizes you, it motivates you, it makes you feel good. So, you know, such stuff is always like, for example, if I just got my Twitter timeline and I say,

you know, my mom watches this show. What is this? 

Sorry? He says, 

then one guy say my, my favorite, did his parents skip sex ed classes during contraception topic

sex ed class or contraception topic or, but anyway, my parents did not go to any such school. Then what are they responding to? 

Dhanya Rajendran: I'm sorry. He's a 

Abhinandan: liptard cock. Only five foot for TKG loser would find the Sarah to be oppressive.

[01:02:00] So these are the beauties. See, these beauties also gotta motivate 

Dhanya Rajendran: you. You gotta, south Central listeners are used to good language, no curse words. Today. Today we brought, I work in 

Sudipto : my, I work in TNM. Okay, today we bought, we brought a little bit of little Bangalore. So by the way, you guys are supposed to be the most, uh, uh, most pro profane people in India, most profane.

Manisha: So this 

Abhinandan: motivates you. You'll see this is very motivational. I find this every morning. You wake up and you're like, wow,

Dhanya Rajendran: I saw there was this one real, where you are getting like, abuse, like crazy. You said something about that ba, the bas of Bollywood. No. 

Abhinandan: A bastard. That's a, yeah, that I want that also. Okay. I haven't seen that. Then 

Dhanya Rajendran: theism something you said. Yay. Con uncle. Hey, Y auntie. Somebody's acting this movie. One of our, you see you're getting 

Manisha: abused so badly on that H.

Yes. Wait, I'm forgetting his name. But, uh, he had this thing on s that I went in a row. Do number of people who abuse. [01:03:00] He's just so sweetly just saying that that's, that's beauty of social media. 

Abhinandan: You see, same thing, like many of these people may be followed by that, you know, and people say 

Dhanya Rajendran: really upset. So I sometimes go in translate, like if somebody's abusing me in TI put it in charge GBTI translate and I just, I'm like, wow, I don't get upset at people troll anymore.

But, 

Josy Joseph: you know, one thing, uh, underlying what everyone is, what you said about the traveler in Nepal, Nepal and what you're talking about, the instant abuse. All this is telling us something that there has been, there is a massive technological transformation in the way we consume conduct. It started with the internet, it picked pace with social media and it is going berserk.

Now, 

Manisha: nowadays, I, we don't even know what, 

Josy Joseph: but the fact is that, the fact is that the, the, the journalism media has not kept pace with it. The last thing that we improved on for anything was in the, uh, the printing press. After we have all been following what the tech bros are making. Right. So [01:04:00] I think there is something in it, therefore something we may be small, but 

Abhinandan: yeah, some innovation and, and in fact in that uh, tipping point, all the big innovations come from the smallest outfits.

But you know on how this will change. Sorry, one second. No question. Actually 

Sudipto : innovation, if you want to come back to later. What kind of innovations and what kind anyway. No, he's 

Dhanya Rajendran: saying use technology, which is there now itself. Yeah. 

Sudipto : One is we should not be intimidated by the technology. 

Josy Joseph: We need to embrace it.

I think that's very important. Yeah, I agree. 

Abhinandan: And you can do so. And we exist because of technology at, in broadcast stage New Zealand news won't have possible, but know to your point and what you said at the beginning of the show that um, you know, wi video, you thought he was playing a character. I think that is where the convergence is at.

One was the convergence that was to happen of broadcast print. And digital would just be through this one cable, through this one, whatever star link. Convergence is pretty much here, but in performative convergence, we are there. And what Vij does, [01:05:00] did is what politics today is. It is a performance. Look at Mr.

Mohi, I mean, for him to start crying at any, I mean, these are performances and the better look at what, uh, hegseth and Trump's speech, of course, hegseth bombed. But, and not just is it performative in that sense. Even, uh, Charlie Kirk, when his widow made that speech that I think some, apparently some 800,000 people, I dunno how many people came for that.

Sorry. 80,000 people for his memorial. When I heard her, I was like, dude, this is a seventies dialogue. This widow's heartbreak will rattle the walls. It is like, it's with cheek.

It was the literal English translation of a seventies Hindi movie.

Dude. It is performative. It is dialogue. [01:06:00] So entertainment,

politics, you know, the appearance of authenticity. While it's anything but, and say what the fuck you want, it does not matter whether it's true, not true, what you're saying from Trump to our own politicians, pull out any number of your ass and say, this is what we've done. Yeah. And if you're convincing and you have a good director and a good speech writer, you're done.

So we've so far been focusing on the convergence of technology, but where we are is the convergence of performance, of performances in public life, which is the melodramatic, the entertaining, and the reality star coming together to make the perfect politician. But repeat that. The convergence of I performative.

So 

Dhanya Rajendran: haka listeners listening to just, uh, like making of stuff 

Sudipto : on the spot, on the man, this is interesting. Come again. There's three 

Abhinandan: terms that you used. I'm [01:07:00] saying 

Dhanya Rajendran: it's done. He's forgotten. 

Abhinandan: I like a, I'm 

like a Roy. Writing is like breathing. Once you've left the breath, it doesn't come back. No. See what I'm saying?

Manisha: Fans. 

Josy Joseph: But you know, there is something else happening. While this is pre dominating the, our, what we are watching on news or television because of Trump, the movies, all the strongmen around the world and media is the mainstream media falling into that. But you look at take, take one more. You know, you know what they say.

Now that for, for some the, what is present is a future for someone else. It's from where you look at. I'm the hawk looking at from the sky what might happen to you next moment I can already see right symbol. Sure. So if you, if you take that hawkey view, you see what's happening in New York, in the world's most powerful financial capital, there's an answer who is making, almost sweeping into the mayor lamb.

Right? If you look at a world, you know, the, a investment fatigue is already visible, and some of [01:08:00] the brightest amines are leaving in droves from these main companies. Even last week, a group of them have come together, had a new company said that we'll use a for science, for medicine. So, I mean, what, what's happening here in this news?

This office is the same thing, right? So I'm saying that the fatigue of the performative world that is converging is also very visible. Trump may be thinking that he is having a free pass. I don't think so. I think his honeymoon is getting over. Sure, sure. No, I, yeah. So the pushback against the, whatever you say goes.

He's big time like social media, which Modi dominated until recently. I don't think Modi is able to find his foothold there, at least on Twitter. And because I'm a passive watcher, I'm not, I don't use it actively. I don't think he's getting any grip on Twitter anymore. He's always given up there because he realized that, you know, people are calling him out and you know, there are more number of people calling him out than his fans.

Sure. The pushback is also happening. Yes. It is [01:09:00] not visible because as you said, the what, what we call this is the circus of mainstream media is not letting us know that like there are more protests happening in North India on a daily basis than ever. Yeah. In recent, absolutely. 

Abhinandan: No, just forget nothing.

Gentleman area. Now they've cleared it out, but before they cleared it out, when you went, there was so many protests happening. You never even heard of them in the media and 

Josy Joseph: in a place like Patna, the student or the, the youth under the protestors moved to Bjb office. Now 

Dhanya Rajendran: thing used everywhere. There's a protest, right?

We do Nepal, like, we'll do Nepal. Like people are starting to say that. I mean, not that it's gonna happen, but I'm just saying that that pushback, the words are also being used. Why can't we have a Gen Z protest here? 

Josy Joseph: It won't happen in India, maybe because we are too diverse, but it is. It's the anger among the jobless S in up B that's 

Manisha: very visible.

It's for 

Dhanya Rajendran: everyone. Even here, we're a huge protest in K. 

Josy Joseph: It's a clear warning to those in power that either change course or we don't know where it, what what could 

Sudipto : happen. I'm just saying that what disturbed me and [01:10:00] a lot of my political reporting has been focused on people's movements, women's groups, Dali groups, minority groups, communist groups, the.

World over. I'm seeing that unfortunately these groups are not creating leaders at the same rate as an Instagram or a YouTube is creating leaders. And it infuriates me that a ani who is a meme at best, when you consider people who are in organizing, and I, and I've asked you, you all covered organizations, how difficult it is.

For instance, 3000 people turned up in Freedom Park to demand, uh, you know, justice in the, let's say, to get those 3000 people there you is the diff most difficult task. Yeah. And those are Kada people. Those are not people who watched you on YouTube and then discover that, hey, you are gonna come at this traffic junction.

So they all turn up over there. And that is a very disturbing thing because these are people who come from nowhere. These are people who come from nowhere, who have no roots, who have no understanding of what people [01:11:00] need. What people's movements are, what organization structures are. So you're saying people's 

Dhanya Rajendran: movement is not able to throw up leaders.

Sudipto : Leaders while on the other hand you have these influences becoming leaders, but that in 

Abhinandan: different, different, different countries. But it's different in different countries because technology and internet penetration makes a big difference, for example, in a context. 'cause you have to compare with apples in the US where internet penetration is at a level where the amount one not online is such an insignificant number that the online audience is how you organize in a place like Delhi, the way apps swept election in 20, you know, 13 onwards.

The two that they did, they could not do no matter how hard they're trading up or in uh, uh, uh, so I think it, it's different for different organizations. Like the same tools were available to Kumo and, uh, you know, the current democratic mayor, the black male, I forget his name. Adam, Eric. Eric, Adam, Eric, Adam.

So they all have [01:12:00] the same tools. What the BJP has here is RSS, which doesn't come the penetration fine. Modi has the internet penetration, but the real penetration there, the RSS backs out. Modi cannot get a majority, he cannot get an option majority. So it's different things in different, and, uh, and, and because what mo uh, uh, Josie said, or what's what Modi said, what Josie said is we are so diverse.

Like I have met this trade union lady in a place called Mo in Mara. It's a, you know, shadow tribe area. She has such a strong hold over there, do without her permission. Even an MP cannot enter that area. She rules that like a godmother. But just that there will be similar behind ma even though you know, SAB is gone, the slums around lums, no matter what mode does, you cannot.

So that kind of [01:13:00] fragmentation. So if, if you have to get those influences together, these people are influencing their own, right? So I think that is what kind of prevents it from happening in technology. You can use an AI and figure out who are the, 

Dhanya Rajendran: no, what you're saying about two things. One is you said Manan is a meme, but imagine I would say that's better than a wij getting 30,000 people on the road.

What if we were connected technologically? Like you don't have to these rallies, right? There's a small site. But why I'm saying there's influencers in politics. That is something which has been tried out in recent state elections where, for example, the BRS, they took at least like a hundred, 150 influencers from travelog.

Like people who go to Sam and shoot a video, they were all praising, telling on our roads. So this has been tried to make influencers somehow influence politics, but that has not worked out very well here. I think they've not been able to use it well, 

Manisha: politics in India is still a ground game, so I don't think anyone really, which is lovely.

Really It has too, also dangerous on the [01:14:00] ground and, and every election is during summer. 

Sudipto : Elaborate? 

Manisha: No, I'm just saying like what we saw now, but on moments, one thing important that he said that why aren't we getting grassroots leaders? And it's dangerous if that gets substituted by, you know, influencers.

Yeah. Because influencers have very short span of life and you don't know when they go up and, and they shallow 

Sudipto : understanding position is on a variety of issues, not there. People 

Manisha: on the ground have resilience to stay through a movement when it's at its worst. And that's what really then gives birth to like political parties, ideologies, real change.

So. It's something you think of though, why, but I think one thing that has happened in India after ca A NRC is the kind of crackdown that happened after that bima ca NRC and JNU ed edition case. I think the messaging of that was so strong across the country that you would be locked up in jail. You'd have N-S-C-U-A-P-A that is actually really deterred people from doing that first step of going out and protesting.

Dhanya Rajendran: No, like what Suto was saying, I, I feel that every [01:15:00] time I go to a protest to cover a watch or whatever, I'm sure you all do. It's always the same people. I have seen the same people for the last 10, 15 years and they've become old. Some of them cannot even stay there, but they are so dedicated and I don't see newer crowds coming in large numbers or newer speakers.

This protest that he was talking about, I was there for, uh, at least two or three hours. It's all the same people. Like when Jadi Chaka died, I felt, I mean, I have not even met him, but I felt devastated that, you know. Who's gonna replace him? Yeah. When actually died, I cried thinking that who's gonna rep replace him like we are not having those people, I feel, I mean, I don't know, maybe they are.

And like there was this one influence, this, stop putting your hands up. There's this one influencer who, uh, is a very powerful influence, not very powerful, whatever. She was always putting these, uh, things about liberalism and communism. Communism and aura, and everybody sharing her stuff. I actually met her and event, I was thinking, [01:16:00] what a poor speaker.

Like literally it's just about putting two lines on Instagram, which anybody can do. Right? They don't, they're not right. They don't understand ground movements. So the are your influencer on Instagram? But you cannot wear brown because you don't understand what, 

Josy Joseph: a, also, just to add to what you said, what we are witnessing right now is the lawless face of democracy in India.

So a lot of the strong ground don't tempt 

Abhinandan: fate, man. Yeah. 

Josy Joseph: I mean it, I mean, I don't know how far low it can, Modi can take it, but the fact is that some of the smart leaders are, or movement, uh, leaders, they're quiet. Like if Soham can be put in jail, anybody can do it. Yeah. Man. If he can 

Abhinandan: be put in jail. Yeah.

So it's, and if you can get late to go into Yeah. 

Josy Joseph: So in in, I think in most homes, parents are telling their children Yeah, absolutely. Ah, that's what's happened. 

Manisha: Yeah. 

Josy Joseph: Yeah. So, so I think the dam will burst because ultimately a human being is a politic animal. Ultimately [01:17:00] he is not, he's less bothered about his survival.

More his freedom, his liberty, et cetera, which he don't know. I, I 

Dhanya Rajendran: strongly believe all these changes will not come unless we open our campuses back to politics. We are depoliticizing our young people, not allowing politics in campus. And that I think is one big reason why we have this one particular kind of population.

Like, I don't know, I don't know about politics. I don't know. Because in your campuses you didn't have an, every state from Kerala to every state is trying to ban it. Right? Karnataka, they didn't revive, uh, campus politics. You're 

Sudipto : raising a hand. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Ah, I'll raise hand when he's Yeah, when you talk, when 

Sudipto : I talk.

No, all you are talking about, and it's very depressing when you look at it that all the same people are coming but do consider that they are there and that they will be there. We know that they're not going anywhere. People like gory and all of that, they just. Turned up every time there was disaster, every time there's some ada, they will turn up.

And therefore I say that this is, let's say, uh, different stages of the [01:18:00] development of a plant. This is seed. It'll turn into a plant, then it'll flower, and then you'll see the bees coming and the other other things which come by. But just because if you look at the song, these guys with their half pants, you know, were roaming around without a constituency for a very long time.

And they were looking like comedians in our neighborhood there. These uncles have come from this side. We will run from that side today. Nobody's running away from them. That's, you know, even the Bolshevik revolution and all of that. Lenin was waiting. Revolution happened. It'll happen when it happened. He only didn't expect it.

You know, so therefore, yeah, that's just so, I mean, I, 

Abhinandan: I think Statewise, if you look at how politics has kind of flowed over the last decade, we've come back to, we started from, it isn't hugely captured. There are several state elections that BJP has lost, where they finally formed the government after flipping MLAs.

There are many, uh, seats that they have won [01:19:00] after whoever was going to be the prospective winner has backed off. There are several seats that they have won, uh, because they flooded the, uh, list of people you could vote and they funded rivals of similar cars, et cetera. So it is institutional capture and I think, I mean, I'm not one of those who thinks that change happens from bottom up.

Change happens from top down, which is why leadership is so important. You have a lot of people who can be convinced one way or the other. Not everybody is, you know, many of us may not be extremists or so, like Manish and I disagree on so many things politically, you are, I disagree on so many things.

Existentially, but you know, we are willing to be convinced a little bit, but we are on certain things. We are firm. Most people I know can be convinced one way or the other. They are not [01:20:00] fundamentalists, they are not dogmatic about any position. I, in one sitting, have convinced someone who was A BJP wrote a hardcore that told it by the end of an hour and a half, oh my God.

They didn't know half those things. I told them because they don't read the paper, they're not interested. So leadership matters. If you have a good communicator and you have the pipeline of delivery, it does not take long to make an audience go from liking action movies to romantic movies to comedies.

It is just you need a better performer right now. Just like, there was a time where actually com, Kumars films were one going, one hit after the other. Aja, they have guns for God's sake. So movies they hit, but people are fatigued over. They Oh, they have used me, poor me. What for me, or see they were mean to me.

But someone needs to cover a better script. Someone needs to go in a better performance and the same audience 

Josy Joseph: will be moved this way, or, or simply that, uh, the mainstream media owners [01:21:00] from Marin to the Janes should just allow the journalists to do their job. To do their job Exactly. For, for two months.

And that's simplest. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. 

Josy Joseph: Simplest solution 

Abhinandan: is that. So on that note, we shall not read any emails today because this is a special episode where we have guests. It is a crossover cross section, whatever it's called, episode intersection fusion. Fusion episode. Confluence. Confluence, confluence. It's a confluence of news minute and news laundry.

But yeah. So this is a fantastic discussion. Uh, we are going to first get the recommendations from the panel, but before we do that, do scan this QR code pay to keep news free. This south central hafta is outside the paywall. We want more and more people to participate in how news is funded, operated, used by the public so that institutionally, maybe not organizationally, but institutionally, the habit should be, [01:22:00] news should be publicly funded.

And what better day than ba? Ba also published of newspaper, several, several newspapers. See, I did not know 

Josy Joseph: that 

he was a serial entrepreneur of newspapers. At least four. Multiple languages. How about that? Yeah, across Africa, in fact, two of the most Exactly. I was just about to say, you know, the only freedom you know, you know, India Indian freedom struggle was actually a freedom struggle of journalists.

This is where, except Sadar Patel, everyone else was a prolific journalist writer, and that's one of the weekends of Patel's life because he did not write prolifically in newspapers. So we have to depend upon money. Ben's papers or official documents, everyone started National Israel started and two, at least one more.

Uh, yeah. And from Wards, you know, we have got this great culture. I don't think any other independence movement has journalism at the heart of it. So because of that, you should ask your subscribers not [01:23:00] just to pay for their subscription, please walk around in your neighborhood, get five more friends to put money in.

Dhanya Rajendran: So it all ties up. You see like et cetera and newspapers and like he said, once when you become that politician, I'll be pilot card mp. We will say. Okay. We also started out as a journalist running news, laundry games. Okay. 

Abhinandan: Honestly, how many of you ever want to join politics? Me? I know you've told me you would like to jump.

See Max I will do is run behind her 

Sudipto : with a diary. Okay. Saying, saying Madam. Madam. Okay. I have 

Dhanya Rajendran: at least five people who, who told me they'll do this job. But yeah. You 

Sudipto : lead all kind of person. Really. At least five diary holders. 

Abhinandan: Yeah. And German told your phone sound or Manisha? 

Manisha: Yeah, I'd like to be, I think I'd be a great politician, great leader.

Leader of the people my civics teacher told me. You'll make a great politician. After I read the priam, I, Steven wrote me, get outta the class mad. 

Abhinandan: I said after 

Manisha: I [01:24:00] with a lot of passion and she said, you should be a politician. 

Josy Joseph: Okay. You have two yeses. I think it's Max Weber who said to be in politics from the landed Ry with lot of money.

Or you should have a mendo. You should have somebody to look after you. 

Manisha: Indian elections need a lot of money. That's true. Yeah. That's found. 

Abhinandan: Jo Josie, you, you though, if today you contest from Kerala, you'll win that. I know. 

Josy Joseph: No, but I don't think I'm 

Dhanya Rajendran: politic. Joe Jo. Every went in Kerala. Any event, 

Manisha: would you ever Influencer is grassroots.

Like, because 

Josy Joseph: I don't, I don't think, can you go 

Manisha: to door and you'll get votes? 

Josy Joseph: No, I don't think I want do a politician because I realize that, uh, in India, actually politicians are the threat to democracy. 

Abhinandan: Really? That's that because politicians, politicians of not, not all politicians 

Josy Joseph: most, 

Sudipto : eh, what is this?

No, no. You can't break. No, no. The, this is so heartbreaking when you sleep. The money of them's movie. 

Dhanya Rajendran: Right. What the money in the movie, in the end, they all become, um, Shar and Syria and all become legislators. You are, huh? If we should be like that. No, [01:25:00] maybe, 

Abhinandan: maybe that you are, you are still. You have, we are both that sort of 50.

So people start laughing at us. If you're calling us. You are, 

Dhanya Rajendran: I'm talking about the concept. We sound like 

Abhinandan: ti 

Dhanya Rajendran: but 

Sudipto : would you want to tell politics? Wow. Didn't 

Josy Joseph: think a word, but why not? 

Sudipto : Why not? Why not? But I always thought of, but it's at the first job in the world. It's, yeah, because the thing is, I mean, we've reported on politicians, you know, we can say these nasty things about them, but the considerations that they have to even the good ones, you know, and I, okay, again, plugging, I did this story on, uh, Junge, right?

Uh, this whole entire profile. And I started off saying, I'll be antagonistic. I will find that thing and all that. And when I find the whole thing, I'm not in a position to say it this way or that way. And I understand, understand to some extent the calls he took. The pragmatic cause he took so, so on. I 

Abhinandan: have had the opportunity at one point in my life.

All I had to say is yes, and I would contest because we did not even have enough people to contest action. [01:26:00] I did not want to. So I find highly unlikely that in my old age, if I didn't want to do it in my forties, uh, or thirties, I will ever want to join politics purely because my, my Saturdays and Sundays are fucking mine.

Manisha: Yeah. And 

Dhanya Rajendran: they cannot be yours. And as a politician 

Abhinandan: they cannot be uss. And if they are yours then you will go there. I, so you can be an 

Dhanya Rajendran: advisor to mine, Manisha's party for the, I can be 

Abhinandan: your advisor, but I'm only available Monday to Friday. And if you can give me the same rates that PK charges 11 groups or towards, I will be available for half and on every day.

Sudipto : Yeah. Saturday, Sunday's off is enough for me. I'll carry a diary or yours or yours. No, I'm 

Josy Joseph: not. I'm not coming that side. 

Sudipto : I am very put Hans, first woman, chief minister. You 

Manisha: can be careless first. No, 

Sudipto : but you know, in India, woman, 

Dhanya Rajendran: chief minister. But that, 

Sudipto : yeah, 

Dhanya Rajendran: I thought I'm mp. But 

Sudipto : Jo, just on a serious note, I think when that new India happens, I think they should sit us down and take our advice.

And I say, and I say not me or I'm just saying that the journalist, [01:27:00] fraternity, a lot of us have really distinguished ourselves in the course of the last 10 years. Some policy advice I think these guys should take after this Apocalyp is over. I had a 

Dhanya Rajendran: former boss who would shout in the newsroom saying, yes, new history is written.

You know who it's right, we'll be there. You sounded a bit I know like that. I know I sounded like 

Sudipto : that. But do consider, but where is 

Manisha: this poor guy, new India's history is being written where? Where they're not asking, consider 

Sudipto : the phone calls we get from ignorant politicians who are trying to talk about illegalities and lack of democracy, but they don't know what to say.

So they have to call it RA or, or ab bang voters scam who are Ah, okay. Yeah, give us some points. This is the level of their intellect. I think they need us more than 

Josy Joseph: ever. We, we have a glorious tradition post independence of people becoming journalists to become politicians. So we are not saying anything new.

And so we have had many generations of 

Dhanya Rajendran: raik saying, no Ra, no chan, no. So many journalists have like, 

Abhinandan: for [01:28:00] uh, something super dramatic would've to happen for me to everyone join parties. And it's just something that I cannot see myself. Like maybe if you're Jane, I wish, 

Josy Joseph: I wish I joined by now without an insider account of 

Abhinandan: no dude, just, no, not for me.

Alright, so with that, let's get the recommendations of the week before we say goodbye to our audience. Let's start with you Hanya. Do you have a recommendation that would enrich us? Yes. I watched 

Dhanya Rajendran: this crazy BBC World Service documentary called Meow Meow. Inside Russia's Meron Keen Crisis. What 

Abhinandan: is Meron?

Dhanya Rajendran: It's, it's a drug. Meow. Meow. It's the, I mean, oh yeah, I've heard that 

Abhinandan: drug. Oh, I thought a, somebody with cats that you were doing anyway. No, 

Sudipto : no. Meow is a the street name of a way. No, the 

Dhanya Rajendran: thing that I, real the, the documentary way, spooky and all that, but I was wondering if this could ever be made in India.

Obviously not, because the documentary starts trailing three or four young people who are drug users and how they, so basically it starts with them looking for Stash. So they'll go check under doors or where they think the stash will be [01:29:00] there. We can never do that kind of a documentary here, right? We're showing real people who are using drugs and how they actually go for stash hunting.

So there's something called stash hunting, so they know where the guys will keep the drugs. So they will go and stash hunt. It's an incredible documentary. 

Abhinandan: All right. Manisha, 

Manisha: I have two recommendations. One is Busans uh, investigation, RTI, investigation into the criminal amount of money Rahan government has spent on advertising.

Do catch it? Part one is out. Part two and three are gonna be out next week, and one very important recommendation, please watch Home Bound. I think it's an essential watch for all of us. It's the movie of our Times, and honestly, if I was a politician, I would do free screenings for this movie in schools, colleges, across towns, villages, because after a long time there's a movie that really speaks for and about the actual Indian youth.

We have romanticized this whole, I mean, too many movies have come out about Jay Struggle, UPSC [01:30:00] struggle, aspirants. Here are a set of people who even, the big dream is that wow, you know, if we had studied, we could have given the UPSC. Just the idea of. Giving. Writing an exam is an aspiration and I think it's just beautifully told, so please watch it.

I really hope it becomes a huge hit and loyal people watch it. So watch it 

Dhanya Rajendran: and read Baat P'S article in New York Times, which led to this movie. 

Sudipto : Everybody loves Bharat. If you don't know who p is, what can I? 

Josy Joseph: Anyway, no, I'm just finishing my third book because of which I've been engrossed in trading. What is this one about?

This is about, I'm trying to tell the story of the last 20 days before independence through some unknown, relatively unknown characters and relatively lesser known events which had, and I'm arguing that India was far closer to balkanization than the popular history [01:31:00] noses. Because of which I've been immersed in all these, um, transfer of per papers or the patel com, you know, uh, further Patel's collections and uh, and, and, and other papers, ministry of State papers.

I think everyone should read them to know how this country came about, because I think that lack of knowledge of what our forefathers created and the lack of appreci is what has brought us here. If you know how, what a struggle it was to create India, then what I momentous, uh, even it was in the human history, I think we would not be sitting here and talking about, and will not be pointing at QR codes every time.

So I think, I think, yeah, just go and read the papers. 

Sudipto : Uh, because I started with this entire vi DMI as thing. I just wanna replug one of my older stories. It's a [01:32:00] long essay called AM Budha and his, I think it should give you a good holistic, where is it available on the News Minute and News Laundry behind the pay wall?

No, not news, laundry. Only us. Okay. We 

Dhanya Rajendran: were not, uh, partnering with them then. We weren't 

Sudipto : partnering then. Uh, it's a piece which is longish. It should give you a sense of what is this Ashoka mean, all of that. And, uh, yeah, I am going to submit, I have submitted this one piece. Uh, after many months, Dania is finally not threatening to kill me.

It's a piece on, uh, this very, uh, interesting mobilization by the sun in Tamal Nadu or around a hill, which is just outside Madre, uh, which they're calling the I idea of South India. And, uh, the standout feature of the story is how s. I know Danya will probably disagree with me. I'm, I will choose my words carefully, but it, I can't help but think about how Tamal Ladu and up, you know, some of these [01:33:00] realities are overlapping.

Some of the things in the story will make you, I hope, wonder, hello? Is this about Tamal? Ladu? Let's check again. Oh, no. Yeah, it is Tam's not up. You know, so that is, I think, the standout feature and how the DMK and the other secular forces have conducted themselves is the standout feature of this story 

Dhanya Rajendran: after October 15th.

Huh? People can tell it 

Sudipto : after October 15th. And yeah, 

Abhinandan: I have two recommendations. One is this fantastic episode of the Ezra Klein Show quotes on bridging gaps versus drawing lines. I think it's a fantastic conversation. So I think just about an hour, longer than an hour where two people who disagree with each other have similar politics, but disagree on Charlie Kirk.

You know, respectfully disagree, but what they talk about, it goes into a lot more. I think it's a fantastic critical eye on why the progressive movement of liberalism is failing in many parts of the world. There's some good thesis that these [01:34:00] guys have put out, but it's a really compelling, uh, listen. And the second is, and really why I'm suggesting, please see Pete Hegseth and Trump's speech to the generals when he called them the full speech.

And that's, I say, one leader, you know, Obama to Trump. It's not a, people of America have changed. One leader can change a country in a very profound way. India would've been very different under, would've been very different under. It's not, it's not bottom up man. That's why leadership matters. That's why books are written on leaders, not on the Chomo who's abusing us on Twitter, not on the Hindu nationalist whose passions I was telling her do his bio nationalist.

Hindu passionate about marketing and finance. Fuck, what a life can you imagine my life, my passions are finance and marketing and what the fuck do you do for fun, man? What a shit [01:35:00] Life. That's why High Point is abusing people on Twitter. You see, that's not who books are written on. Books are written on, books are not.

Gandhi books are written on, you know, new Deal, like Trump es on glan. Leaders make changes. Yeah, so I, of course, people matter, but the speed at which change occurs because of leaders. 

Josy Joseph: And you see that and, and, and, and a very great leader, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm not counting trauma amongst them, but every great leader is also someone whom, for most part of life, he speaks unpopular opinions.

Yeah. And that's, that's a greatness of Yeah. I think you, 

Abhinandan: and you can't pander. You 

Josy Joseph: can't. You look at, you can't pan. Look at them, look at Nru. Look at all of them. Patel, all of them have been very unpopular through most of their careers. 

Abhinandan: Too much of pandering. I think that's also one of the failures of leadership.

Josy Joseph: Yeah. 

Abhinandan: Yeah, yeah. And that's happening across the political divide. Some liberals are pandering to some complete fucking nutters. Right. You can't pand. [01:36:00] 

Josy Joseph: I think liberals are the worst enemies of liberals. 

Abhinandan: That is a circular pH squad. On that note, thank you to our wonderful host and co-founder and editor-in-chief of News Minute.

Manisha: Thank you, Danya. 

Abhinandan: Thank you Danya for hosting us. Thank you for such. We even 

Manisha: took them 

Dhanya Rajendran: to Paragon for lunch. Yeah, 

Abhinandan: dude. By the way, if I'm looking tired, I have stuffed my face with so much food. 

Sudipto : I also got you Martin Cutlass from Fatima Bakery. 

Abhinandan: Hey, may I heart attack? Okay. If I don't reach Delhi Alive, you know who's responsible and 

Sudipto : Walnut Brownies.

Fatima Bakery. Google 

Abhinandan: it. I just saw it lying outside. You got that was empty by the time I came in it. My sugar levels and everything is gonna be outta whack. Thank you. Manisha. Pande, editor, editorial director and awarding journalist. Or two? Award. Award. 

Three award. Listen, you also award. I only ju I've never got award.

Good. 

Josy Joseph: We'll 

Sudipto : give an award. 

Abhinandan: [01:37:00] Fucking give an award. We'll give both. Yeah. Let's give, give this. 

Dhanya Rajendran: He got last year for the investigation. At least something we got. No, no. 

Sudipto : Some what? Noted what? Uh. Something they say No 

Manisha: award. Yeah. PO guys gave you an award consolation. 

Abhinandan: Prize award. Consulate consolation prize also ran.

You participated. So Josie Joseph, awarding journalist, and um, mentor to many, many journalists. Superstar, thank you Sto, although many years younger to me, but in intellect and awareness, decades ahead must to learn from Thank you to our wonderful producers. I have just come in. I was introduced to a young man there.

Ajay. Aja. Thank you Ajay, production assistant. Right. Thank you Boan. Always a pleasure. Thank you. Pali, who was also traveled with us from Bangalore and thank hi Delhi, 

Sudipto : from Delhi to Bangalore 

Abhinandan: after Bangalore local Noia are just Maori. So on that very authentic local note you cannot even tell I'm from Delhi.

We'll see you next week. [01:38:00] When. The South, central and Hafta will do their own thing. Until then, subscribe, keep us. We are stronger. Together, a fantastic weekend, and those of you who will make it, bye-bye.