NL Hafta
Hafta 559: Taliban’s visit to India, Gaza peace plan agreement
This week on Hafta, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Manisha Pande, Jayashree Arunachalam and Shardool Katyayan are joined by Suhasini Haidar, Diplomatic Affairs Editor at The Hindu, and Dr Khinvraj Jangid, director and professor at the Centre for Israel Studies at OP Jindal Global University.
Abhinandan asks Suhasini whether it was “embarrassing” for the Indian government to have permitted the press conference barring women journalists with Taliban’s Foreign Minister. He also asks what pressure took place for a second presser to take place with women journalists.
“The Taliban doesn’t control the embassy in Delhi. The staff there still pledge allegiance to the previous, democratically elected government,” Suhasini says. “But when the foreign minister’s team invited journalists, only men were included. By the time everyone had gathered, it became clear that an all-male Taliban delegation was speaking to an all-male Indian journalist group. There were women journalists outside who weren’t allowed in, and it wasn’t just women who noticed – men also felt this was wrong, and some even sent apologies.”
The discussion moves to the Gaza peace agreement. Khinvraj says, “If you look at Trump, in this particular instance, he reversed his earlier, reckless proposal that Gaza be ‘wiped out’ and the idea that the people of Gaza didn’t deserve to live there. He achieved this deal through compromise, making what I see as a powerful course correction.”
Jayashree is less optimistic. “Israel literally already occupies Gaza – it controls the movement of its citizens and what goes in and out. Yet it demands the surrender of arms as if a genocide hasn’t already been committed. We’re talking about hostages, but what about the thousands of Palestinians imprisoned and not called hostages simply because they’re not white?”
Hafta letters: Future of media, mean comments, examining biases
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Song: Kana Yaari
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements
00:03:07 - Headlines
00:09:05 - Afghan FM’s visit to India
00:45:57 - Suhasini Haidar’s recommendation
00:49:07 - Gaza peace agreement
01:28:39 - Khinvraj’s recommendation
01:31:29 - Letters
01:37:39 - Recommendations
References
Taliban’s male-only presser: How media failed to fact-check Afghan minister’s pro-woman claims
The women who fought their way into the Afghan Embassy
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Billboards in Goa, jingles on Delhi FMs, WhatsApp pings: It’s Dhami outdoors and online
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Zakir Hussain & Rakesh Chaurasia
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Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced by Amit Pandey with production assistant Priyali Dhingra and sound recordist Anil Kumar.
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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry podcast and you're listening to nfta.
Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of Hafta. This is the weekend preceding de so a very happy, the value to you
Shardool : with something. Please don't emit firecrackers.
Abhinandan: We've been running.
Suhasini Haidar : That was, that was horrible. A green fire.
Abhinandan: And uh, also we have a special Diwali offer as we often do. First, all thank that's not the offer.
You know, I have such childish colleagues, I don't know how I maintain my calm, but, but coming to the serious issue of the Diwali offer, uh, we have a 20% off on three month and six month joint news, laundry news minute subscription, and 25% off on the annual joint [00:01:00] subscription. And 10, a few special people will also get a gift hamper.
If you avail of this offer, there is a QR code flashing on your screen right now, and there's a link below this video window. Uh, so click on it if you're not a subscriber and avail this Diwali offer. And if you are a subscriber, you can avail it by gifting someone Diwali gift, which is both illuminating.
It is all about independence and the light of truth and public interest journalism funded by the public and not corporations or government ads. So light the way for democracy and avail of the N-L-T-N-M, the Valley offer. Now let me introduce a panel to you in the studio we have Manisha Pande.
Manisha: Hello,
Abhinandan: Ian.
Hello. Our very own Jeri from Chennai joins us. Hello.
Manisha: Hello.
Abhinandan: And also joining us from Delhi is senior Indian journalist and diplomatic editor of the Hindu. So Hasani here. There. Hi. So Hasani. [00:02:00]
Suhasini Haidar : Hi. Hi.
Abhinandan: Thank you for joining us
Suhasini Haidar : in advance to all your. Listeners and viewers and reader, yes,
Abhinandan: I would say
Suhasini Haidar : green firecrackers.
Abhinandan: Green firecrackers, whatever those names. Uh, before we get into the headlines, so Hasani had, uh, some constructive feedback and criticism and which is why we always say, in fact, that is one of our vision documents, the, the initial document of why news one exists. No one should be above scrutiny or critique.
Including us, especially us. So, so Hasani has some feedback about a piece that we carried, critiquing and criticizing, or has trashing the women journalists who participated in the, what we call the Taliban press conference. What, what's the
Manisha: Taliban press conference? Yeah.
Abhinandan: Taliban. Ah, so Hasni, please. Yes. So Hasni tell us about,
Suhasini Haidar : no, I, I mean, it's part of our discussion.
So why don't we start with what happened and then we will [00:03:00] bring in, okay. We'll do that cover our, uh, feelings are done.
Abhinandan: So, uh. Let's get to the headlines. Uh, Gehi, please do the honors.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Yes. So here are the headlines of the week. Uh, Delhi Court has framed criminal charges against Lalu Prasad Ri Devy, and their San, who's also behas leader of the opposition.
This is in the case of alleged corruption In the railways, they face charges of corruption, criminal conspiracy, and cheating. All three have pleaded not guilty.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Meanwhile, ahead of the Baha assembly polls, the Congress has released its first list of 48 candidates. This is after days of uncertainty and an impasse, so which seat sharing within the Grand Alliance.
A student of South Asian University in Delhi has alleged that she was sexually assaulted by four men in a deserted part of campus. In her statement to the police, she claims that hostile staff discouraged her from contacting the police or telling her family. She also claimed a security guard physically covered her phone when she tried to call her parents.
The Supreme Court has allowed the sale and use of green firecrackers in Delhi and nearby [00:04:00] NCR under certain conditions. This is as GR stage one has been imposed in Delhi NCR. The air quality is now poor ahead of the wali and I think this is true across North India as well.
Abhinandan: Yes. And just so those of you who don't live in NCR, even when there was a complete banner firecrackers in Delhi, firecrackers on Diwali were exploded with complete violation.
Yeah, we
Manisha: did a story last year now
Abhinandan: that green firecrackers are allowed. These are just orders
Manisha: re
Jayashree Arunachalam : so silly
Manisha: nonsense.
Jayashree Arunachalam : After I PS Officer Pran Kumar died by suicide alleging Carism. The police have now booked his wife and two others. This is for abatement of suicide for the death of another man, an assistant sub inspector who was found death from dead from a gunshot wound. The a SI left behind a purported suicide note, which accused the later IPS Officer of corruption.
I find this entire Yeah, he has defended
Abhinandan: in his suicide note. The people who that earlier guy had accused of. Yeah. Puran Kumar Sand
Shardool : Kumar has left a video [00:05:00] that the Puran Kumar was a corrupt guy and he committed suicide because Yeah. Yeah. His corruption was about to come out. Yeah, that's, it's just very murky.
It's very murky disturb, too
Jayashree Arunachalam : convenient. A central committee member of the band CPI Mao has surrendered in mata. This was in the presence of Chief Minister Dera. He carried a reward of six crow on his head.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Jayashree Arunachalam : The WHO has warned against the use of three cough syrups that are found to contain unsafe levels of dilon glycol.
It targets specific batches of cold drift cough syrup, which is manufactured in Thedo and two others that are manufactured in Gujarat.
Abhinandan: Uh, although I was quite encouraged to see that, uh. I don't think it's, it may be a very insignificant association of doctors who have said, why are the doctors being arrested for this man for prescribing a medicine?
No,
Jayashree Arunachalam : no. There was one case of a doctor, but he was getting a kickback. Right? Yeah. He was getting eight people sometimes to directly
Manisha: prescribe it. Yeah. Even
Shardool : if you get a kickback, Indian government allows medical representatives. It is the government and drug agency's job to [00:06:00] ensure that the drugs are manufactured well.
Right.
Jayashree Arunachalam : A 26-year-old software engineer from Kerala was founded in random and what the police suspect was a suicide. He left behind a prerecorded video where he led several RSS members had sexually and physically abused him during his childhood at a Chaka. Meanwhile, in Karnataka PRI car has demanded the chief minister ban all our activities in government institutions and public spaces.
Abhinandan: Yeah. That has led to a. I mean, I will
Jayashree Arunachalam : think, I think there's plenty wrong with the RSS and I will always point fingers, but also it is a fact that abuse in India happens in every single institution. Schools. Colleges, yeah. This happens to be an RSS space. So, but I don't think it is indicting the RSS specifically in a meaningful way.
Hmm. So
Abhinandan: right
Jayashree Arunachalam : next, the Supreme Court Collegium has said it's revised its recommendation to transfer a judge after the union government asked her to reconsider. This is Justice UL from the Mad Pradesh High Court.
Abhinandan: In fact, interestingly, he has been transferred from three [00:07:00] different high courts where he was in line to become the chief justice of that high court.
And, uh, now. He's been transferred to Alba where he has no chance of becoming Chief Justice before that Tigar. And we state before that where he could have become Chief justice 'cause he was in line. He is the judge who had ordered an FIR against, um, minister BJ Minister Vijay Shaa. Controversial remarks on Colonel Sophia Koi.
He had over a fire against her and he has been transferred around trying to ensure, at least seemingly, that he should not become the chief just of any high court.
Jayashree Arunachalam : I think he was transferred out of, um, Jumo in Kashmir. Yes. At the time he was the second most senior judge and he could have become,
Abhinandan: he wasn't lying to become the chief justice of that.
Correct. And then as well.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Now in Gura, all the ministers in the LED government have resigned. This is ahead of a new team that will be sworn in tomorrow. Uh, that is October, no [00:08:00] sworn today, October 17th. Mm. The cabinet, which currently has 17 ministers is, is expected to expand 2 22 or 23,
Abhinandan: right.
Jayashree Arunachalam : There's been an outcry after the Afghanistan.
Foreign minister has visited India because on October 10th, women journalists were Barr from a pressor at the Afghan embassy. India's MEA clarified it had no role to play, and Afghanistan said it was a technical issue. Uh, second press conference was then, can mean two days later. And this included women journalists
Abhinandan: and we'll discuss this in more detail with our guest.
So, yes,
Jayashree Arunachalam : uh, Donald Trump has claimed that Narin Modi agreed to halt India's oil imports from Russia. However, India has clarified its priority safeguarding Indian consumers. And the MEA spokesperson also said, I am not aware of any conversation yesterday between the two leaders.
Abhinandan: They are not aware that incident happen.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Yeah. This is diplomatic speak. I love it. I should learn it. And finally, Trump and the leaders of Egypt, Qatar, and C Turkey have signed a declaration, which is pledging to act as a guarantor for peace in Gaza. This is [00:09:00] following the first phase of a ceasefire during which Israel and Hamas exchanged prisoners and, and those are the headlines.
Abhinandan: This, thank you, Jesse, will discuss that in some detail with our guest who is a professor from Jindal University. But let's get into the first issue right now. So we did have, I mean, this was just not just a headline in the hafta this week, but all over the world. This has been a headline for the last week.
The historical piece, potential, I mean, many. Cynics and Soni will tell us whether they should be called cynics because I've heard many podcasts on this, including from the New York Times and, and the rest is politics and NPR and uh, I read a piece on CNN. Some say the celebrations are premature. They are just to make Trump feel good.
Uh, we are still very far away from peace. This is not peace. This is just a pause in violence. So tell us a little bit about that. Um, [00:10:00] but before that, the issue that you're here for is the Taliban press conference. Why did they come? Is it embarrassing for the Indian government that they allowed a press conference where no men were allowed?
And what pressure. Caused them to have another press conference where women are allowed. And can we use that pressure to get our Prime Minister to also have a press conference
Suhasini Haidar : at all for anyone? Um, uh, thanks a lot. And of course this was, uh, the big story. But, you know, interestingly, this is one issue that has, uh, got, uh, Indian journalists headlines and that two positive headlines.
I think after a while, um, around the world, uh, you know, I'm looking at, uh, B-B-C-C-N-N, Deutsche LA and all the rest. Uh, they, uh, they have all spoken about the idea that, uh, Indian journalists got together and were able to make at least the Taliban foreign minister, uh, and, uh, you know. Implicitly, the Ministry of External Affairs [00:11:00] to change its mind.
And how did that happen? Essentially, uh, Taliban foreign minister, who's known as the acting foreign minister of Afghanistan, it's a government that India does not recognize, came to Delhi for a big visit. The big visit was to herald the normalization of ties between Delhi and Kabul. And you've been seeing a lot of close cooperation being, uh, held out as a potential between Delhi and Kabul, India and Afghanistan.
Uh, India has agreed, the External Affairs Minister Shankar announced that India will upgrade its mission in Kabul right now, which is a technical mission to an embassy. That really means that India will now send a diplomat. Uh, to Kabul, uh, and, uh, presumably because these things happen, reciprocally except a Taliban diplomat in Delhi, but that is in the future.
Uh, right now the Taliban, uh, does not control, uh, the embassy in Delhi. The embassy in Delhi still pledges allegiance to the previous government, which is a democratically elected [00:12:00] republic of Afghanistan, and its flag. So you just need to understand, uh, that as the context for what happened next. Uh, the foreign minister's team reached out to a number of news organizations.
I think the first number was 12, and then it was expanded to 18, uh, and directly invited certain correspondence to that uh, uh, press conference, uh, on Friday. So this was, uh, a week ago, uh, when the journalists showed up, perhaps, uh, they didn't realize because each one was going in separately. But once they had all congregated, it became very clear that there was all, you know, Taliban, all male delegation was speaking, uh, to an all male Indian journalist delegation.
Um, perhaps at this point, and I completely take that point that nobody really was focused on this. There were other things going on because as I said, the Taliban does not control the embassy. They tried to bring in their white and black flag. To replace the big flag, the embassy, uh, staff pushed back then somebody out of his [00:13:00] pocket pulled out a small white and black flag, put it on the di.
You know, so there's a lot of things going on in the middle of all of this, um, uh, press conference ends, and we all have by now realized because it was streamed, uh, that there were no women at the press conference. I checked with some of my colleagues, I said, were you invited? Were you invited? Um, in each of the cases, because, you know, we have a lot of foreign policy journalists covering, uh, uh, covering the MAB, uh, in each of the cases where, uh, the organization was invited.
It was a male who was invited, not a female. I, myself was not invited. My colleague was invited. I have to, uh, add, I was actually out of town that day. Um, but there were a number of women journalists outside, uh, the embassy as well who were not allowed in. So there was, it was very particular that this was.
You know, 25 men Wow. From the Indian side, including the video journalists and, uh, and the Taliban delegation there. So at this point, we [00:14:00] started to ask around, once it became clear on our WhatsApp groups that women just weren't there. Uh, it's not just the women that felt bad, it was the men as well. In fact, we got apologies from men saying, I'm so sorry.
We should have literally done something there. Sorry. So
Abhinandan: the invitation had come from the MEA, is that correct? No, no,
Suhasini Haidar : no. The invitation, that's the surprising part. The invitation came from the Mumbai Consul General of the Taliban, uh, who, you know, who is basically working with the Taliban. The Delhi Embassy still does not, so they don't have ka off
Abhinandan: Delhi Embassy.
They have Kaza off Mumbai, uh, in Malabar Hill. They have the
Suhasini Haidar : Mumbai and Hyderabad essentially report to them.
Abhinandan: Right. So where was the emba? Where did the press conference happen? Here in Delhi.
Suhasini Haidar : Inside the embassy though, because the Ministry of External Affairs, this what the embassy people tell us. The Ministry of External Affairs said to them that if you don't allow them to hold the press conference there, it'll be seen as an anti-D India Act.
This is, I mean, something we've reported, Indian Express has reported as [00:15:00] well.
Abhinandan: Also, it conveniently gives them a none of our business. It gives them culpable liability that the MES says it's there. And,
Suhasini Haidar : and at some point I do wanna talk about that full Vienna convention thing of whether it was sovereign or not.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Suhasini Haidar : Anyway, so this is what happened. Uh, we asked the MEA very clearly. I mean there was, on the MEA group, there was a very clear question, did you know in advance that women have not been invited? Um, and second. Do you, uh, are you protesting the fact that women were not invited? Have you given any kind of a dimar?
Because you can do that. You may not be able to prosecute someone, uh, inside an embassy, but you can certainly say, I don't like this. Um, the response from the MEA was MEA was not involved in this press conference. Just that, that's it. They would not budge from there. Uh, when I asked off the record if they were planning to say anything directly, they said, no, this is, we are, this is not a concern.
I said, does it concern you? They, you know, even questioned whether [00:16:00] this was discrimination. It was just. 25 journalists who were chosen from the MEA book. They just, how lame. Well, I'm just telling you what I heard. Um, but the, but the fact was that by then, Saturday, every journal, every newspaper had headlined with a fact.
All male press conference, everyone on television was talking about it. TV had already started talking like for hours the day before. I think the press, uh, the bad press as well as the public outrage that followed, uh, forced either the Taliban or the MEA to put pressure on the Taliban. And by Sunday we got this invitation saying, please do come all are welcome.
Uh, because I wanted to make sure, now they don't do it as just a all women press conference. So that was a Janna. So it doesn't become
Abhinandan: a Janna and a Mada press conference.
Suhasini Haidar : Exactly. Um, and so that's, that's essentially what happened. We went to the press conference. There were women, there were men. There was this very powerful moment, I think.
Um, uh, where we walked in [00:17:00] and our male colleagues who'd been at the press conference two days before, who had frankly backed us up on all our questions to the MEA Hmm, uh, said we are vacating the front row so that he has to take questions from women. There are only women in front of him and, and this, nobody asked, but they said, you've, we've had that press conference, it's your turn, it's your day.
You asked the questions. So actually our male colleagues, uh, who had been at the previous press conference did not ask the question. Some people think that may be a little too much. I, in fact, uh, protested. I said, no, let's just have a regular press conference. Uh, but they did make the point that let the questions be asked and the questions, you know, the women who asked the questions, all of them well, including myself, asked about the condition of women in Afghanistan.
One question was asked about, why didn't you let women into your press conference? These are technical error. Uh, it wasn't intentional. Um, but uh, the rest asked and then backed each other up. [00:18:00] So if he answered and did not give a convincing answer, somebody else asked the question again and said, but what you've said is incorrect.
Um, that's where my quibble with the news Laundry, uh, piece on this press conference is because it says he came, he saw and he got away. Which I didn't think he got away. I think he had to answer three or four times. Uh, not that he was gonna change his opinion, but he made a few points when, you know, we questioned him.
We said, look, women cannot go to, uh, school past sixth grade. President Karzai's own daughter can't go, uh, uh, that women can't go to college. Women cannot work anymore. How can you say that women are free? That there's no problem in Afghanistan, that yes girls are getting an education even if it's not in school.
How can you say this? Uh, and he made a few points. He said, uh, the education of women is not Haram. Uh, this is something that shows that there is a difference between those in Kabul, like him, like, uh, [00:19:00] stanza. The deputy former Minister Haqqani has also said publicly that women should be, should get an education.
Um, and the Kandahar. Rulers of, of the Taliban as it were. Uh, and he also said that they were looking for ways to, uh, change the situation, but that the first priority was peace at, at which one Indian journalist turned back and said, what is the connection between peace and girls in school? Um, so I, and I know for a fact that they felt that they had been, uh, challenged in a way they have not been challenged before.
You know, the truth is, I got a message from a, an international journalist in Kabul who said, I'm so glad. That you all put him, put his toes to the fire simply because these are not questions he gets asked, and he doesn't take press conferences in other countries. It's the same sort. So it was a, it was a unique moment and for the news laundry piece to say he just came and got away and what a shame it was, was to miss that moment I felt, [00:20:00] especially when, uh, Indian journalists are being recognized rightly or wrongly, but they are being recognized for having at least made the Taliban foreign minister uncomfortable and uncomfortable enough to, uh, more or less say he does not support, uh, the denial of girls' education.
He may not do anything about it. The fight for girls to be educated and work in Afghanistan. It has still not been fought. That has, that is, that is a much bigger, but I think for that moment about, uh, and I've written this in the Hindu today, if you'd like to read my notebook, to say that our primary, uh, goal was about media access.
And it's a fight. We fight along with journalists around the world, India, us. Uh, because there are governments that don't want to do press conferences, don't want to take questions, decide what questions you can ask, and all the rest of that.
Abhinandan: And we know, uh, that back home only too well. But before we, you know, move on to the panel and come back to, so I had three specific questions for you to asani and a bit of information for our [00:21:00] audience.
One is, um, in case you're wondering like what does it mean that Taliban is running the government in Afghanistan under the embassy here is not in their control, et cetera. This has actually been for a while, ever since Taliban took over, uh, the, uh, consulate generals or the ambassadors or whoever the diplomats were in different, uh, embassies and consulates especially.
'cause I know they were in Bombay. Um, they did not agree with the Taliban. So there was this limbo that they are still. You know, representing Afghanistan here, but not representing the government. Also the Bombay Maba Hill, uh, consulate in the premises. It's a lovely sea facing property and just at the end of the property there is this half constructed multi-story building, which apparently the, just before the Taliban took over, the guy who used to be the consulate general there had apparently sold to the builder and fucked off to London What for apartments.
So it's half constructed. That's awesome. It is an amazing bloody property in [00:22:00] Malabar Hill. Each. Apart will probably go 40 50 crows. But anyway, it's lying like that, so it's this bit of a mess. So, uh, in, so in that context, you had said in the beginning, uh, so hasani, that the Indian government does not recognize the Taliban government.
If they're gonna be reestablishing these diplomat ized, does that mean we will officially recognize the government? That is. Question one a second is the embassy you said is still controlled by diplomats who allegiance to the previous regime? So how does it actually work here right now? Uh, you know, who are they representing and is that one of the reasons why the Indian government.
Doesn't know whether to recognize them or not, or, or is there some other more complicated reason?
Suhasini Haidar : So, uh, it is very complex diplomatically. The United Nations does not recognize the Taliban as the official. Oh, I see. Okay. Uh, and India has stuck with the un. There is only one country that has violated what the UN has said, and that is [00:23:00] Russia.
Russia now has given formal recognition to the Taliban. In fact, at a recent, uh, meeting where India was also present, Pakistan was also present. They announced that they were now inducting the Taliban foreign minister, the same man, Mr. Makki, as a member. As opposed to an observer of what is called the Moscow format.
Abhinandan: So we are just following the UN convention or whether they recognize we are not making any
Jayashree Arunachalam : on that.
Abhinandan: On that. Okay.
Jayashree Arunachalam : So is that, is that also why he had to get permission from the UN or whatever to travel? Is that the,
Suhasini Haidar : that's not exactly, you know, Moki himself, Amer Kki, uh, was a Mujahidin who joined, uh, uh, the Taliban in 1996.
He, yeah, he more or less grew up in Pakistan. He was trained there. Uh, and in 19 94, 95, he joined, uh, the Maja fighting inside Afghanistan along with the Taliban. Uh, when the Taliban came to power in 1996, he became the Minister of Education. So if we're talking about girls' education mm-hmm. This is particularly the person, [00:24:00] uh, who, uh, first enforced these terrible, terrible, illegal, uh, and what I've described as a warrant, uh, uh, rules.
Uh, stopping girls from education in 2001, even before nine 11 had happened. And then, you know, all that Osama stuff happened. Uh, in 2001 January, Amer Kataki was put on what is called the UN Security Councils Consolidated List of designated terrorists. Hmm. These terror, these are, these people who have been designated as terrorists, uh, are designated for a number of reasons.
In his case, it was because he was a member of the Taliban government.
Abhinandan: Right. Um,
Suhasini Haidar : and, uh, the Taliban was a declared terrorist organization. They used to carry out these attacks and kill civilians. Um, and uh, and essentially it means three things. They are not allowed to access arms. They are not allowed to, uh, travel without specific permission.
And their accounts are expected to be frozen by all authorities that adhere to the un. So if they live in Pakistan, then [00:25:00] freeze their assets there, you know, so this is our five ton lush reto, and all the rest I kataki is on the same list that HAFI is. Wow. And, uh, j Muhammad, chief or Maza and all the rest of that am Kataki was a part of that government when IC eight 14 happened and the Taliban took charge of Maza and then Oh, I see.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Suhasini Haidar : Okay. I'm just giving you context over here. Just let me know when I'm running on too long. Um, so he, uh, had to take permission from the UN Security Council Committee on counter-Terrorism that decides on whether he can take, you know, get a waiver. So when the Taliban talks with the us, they got waivers to go to Doha, for example.
Um, similarly, uh, India applied I think in September and it was denied, uh, and then again this month, and it was accepted that he could travel from ninth to 14th of, uh, October, which is, which is what happened. Okay. Um, the last point here is that the world is divided on what kind of embassy. [00:26:00] Uh, they have many just shut down the Afghan embassy.
They said if you can't, you know, if you don't have a government anymore, there's no need, there's no point. They gave asylum to their diplomats and they shut them down like the US I think the UK as well. Then there are countries in the E and there are European countries that, like India maintain the Republic's embassies and they actually help them.
They support them. Then there are, and Japan as well. Then there are those, uh, like China, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, central Asian countries, Gulf countries, um, and a few others who have accepted a Taliban ambassador and, and actually have allowed the Taliban tricolor to be taken down. And the Taliban's, uh, sorry, the Afghan tricolor to be taken down and the Taliban's white and black flag, which they call the flag of Jihad, um, up.
So the question now is going to be, is India going to follow suit with them or is it going to be on this side? Is it going to allow that Taliban flag now to fly on Shanti [00:27:00] path or will they since,
Abhinandan: you know, should they still have that real estate if they're not recognized government? Should that land be given to Adani to builder luxury apartments?
Which is also an option worth exploring, I would say. Uh, and also just a bit of trivia, the marital status of this gentleman who had come is unknown. Did you know that? We don't know. Like if you Google his marital status, it's unknown. Does, there's a lot of
Suhasini Haidar : hypocrisy here. And then, because a lot of these Taliban leaders, their, their daughters are actually studying but outside the country, which is why
Abhinandan: they leave it as unknown.
They don't reveal my wife her. So no one knows it's kaha
Jayashree Arunachalam : situation. But so Hasi, can I ask you one question? Like would, I mean, so everyone is pushing back at the idea, I guess, that India is. Pursuing geopolitics and is engaging with the Taliban government and so on. But given India's entire long history with Afghanistan, do you actually think it's very surprising?
Like, isn't that what geopolitics about? Like No, not at all.
Suhasini Haidar : I mean, let's be clear, engaging with Taliban is [00:28:00] something that many have, uh, uh, uh, told the Indian government to do since 2012. Yeah. Since the London process. And the Taliban began to be recognized and America pushed Qatar to set up the Taliban office in Doha.
Yeah. That's not something new. Engaging the Taliban, speaking to the powers inside Kabul is an obvious, it's a no brainer. Uh, the question that many have asked and you're, you know, you said people are pushing back. To be honest, what we saw, uh, for the last few days has been. Duh. This is real, real politic.
This is how it goes. This is pragmatism. India is, uh, is uh, making friends with a country that is of, is, is at war with Pakistan. Hmm. It's, no. Now my enemy's enemy is my friend. Hmm. Um, so the question is now, uh, not just how you engage the question more or less is, uh, uh, is whether you engage or not. The question is how far are you willing to go?
Because this is a, this is a singular government that has denied at [00:29:00] least 50% if you're not talking about the minorities that have fled the country, uh, at least 50% of its population, women not to study your work. Right. So it's a question of are we going to bring it up? So, for example, could the Ministry of External Affairs have invited him, uh, got the UN to give him permission to come and then sat him across from a few women officers.
Abhinandan: But yeah,
Suhasini Haidar : chose neither our house to have only men on their side, whether the Taliban mandated it or we were being extra polite and saying, you know, let's, let's stick with your culture, whatever it was. Or we were making the case that we don't have any women officers on this particular issue, so we are not gonna have them there.
Whatever it was, it was a missed opportunity to put a woman there to say, I'm not comfortable with the way you treat, uh, women in your country. You know, some things are not about internal matters. There are universal declarations that we have all signed on to and that people believe in. Second, uh, could the MEA have in its opening statement of external affairs Minister Jay [00:30:00] Shankar, or in the joint statement said, we certainly hope that the Taliban can create a situation that is equal for all its citizens.
Was that possible? Was it possible for the MEA. To not have given him full protocol because this is not a government we recognize. Did the minister have to meet him at all at delegation level where he could have called on the minister and held talks with, uh, uh, um, more junior, uh, MEA officials? Did we need to, uh, you know, give him that platform to go to the bonds When other Afghan leaders in the past when they wanted to go to the oban, we've been very squeamish about the idea.
Um, did we need to, he was supposed to go to the Taj Hel when they canceled it to, to the press conference. Did we need to organize the Taj for him or organize this great, you know, sort of platform for him to be normalized? Those are all the questions that are being asked. Ash, I don't think anyone is questioning, do we need to deal with the government that Yeah, it's like you're
Jayashree Arunachalam : dealing with it, but you deal it within a context that at least makes your position.
Suhasini Haidar : We send [00:31:00] humanitarian aid. Yeah. We did this, by the way, from 1996 to 2001 also, we, uh, we gave humanitarian aid. We didn't have any talks with the Taliban. Yeah. But at the same time we helped the anti Taliban groups. We gave, uh, uh, visas to refugees. This time we've not done any of that zero, uh, visas for anyone but the Afghan Sikhs and the Afghan Hindus who, who fled.
Abhinandan: So I just wanna get Manisha in now. Uh. Of course, in the context of what so Hasani has said, I just wanna point out since Manisha, oh, happy lady birthday, Manisha's birthday. In case happy. If you're wondering what to get her as a birthday gift, you can buy a subscription of News Laundry and say, this is dedicated to Manisha.
We'll give her an additional snacks for the weekend. Snacks. We give addit snacks, additional snack samosa from your side. So there's a QR code if you want to subscribe, pay to free. And you can just say, happy birthday, Manisha. And she'll get an extra samosa, thanks to you. So, so, [00:32:00] uh, lucky
Jayashree Arunachalam : girl. Lucky girl.
Yeah. And also we
Abhinandan: have, uh, a guest who has joined us, who will be joining us in the next discussion. Let me do the op introduction. First of all, thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Raj, Jan gi. Did I pronounce that correctly? Yes. Okay. Hello. I would say
Shardool : jgi
Abhinandan: Jgi jgi. Yes. Jgi Rag is a professor and director, the Center for Israel Studies at Al Global University in Sony Path.
He's also a Campa fellow at the Elizabeth and Tony Campa Center for the study of antisemitism at the University of Haifa Israel. So thank you for joining us. We were just discussing the Taliban right now. If you wanna jump in, feel free. Uh, but uh, yeah, Manisha, please go ahead with you weren't here. Uh, but I was watching the prime time coverage of this and like history began with Modi and it'll probably end whenever MOI ceases to be Prime Minister India and Afghanistan have become friends ever since Modi came around [00:33:00] before that.
There was nothing apparently because of Modi, Afghanistan is very hostile towards Pakistan. Yeah. Because of Modi. And they have shown stuff like shooting and the most bizarre, I was watching those news clips, I was like, what the fuck? Like what does this have to do with anything? So just so you know, Afghanistan and Pakistan, I'm not got long for the longest time.
And in fact, if you ever meet and have gone outside India and by mistake, you say, oh, are you from Pakistan? He will give you such a cold stare that you'll feel that he just kicked you in. The nuts that happened to me when I had gone to watch the uh, uh, European League last year to Germany, I happened to meet a person at the hotel and he had a very Indian sounding Muslim.
I said, Indian. He says, no, with a smile on his face. I said, Pakistani, his smile vanished. He says, no, I've gone. I said, okay, sorry. My bad. So, so that is what happened. Prime time. But yeah, anyway, about the press conference, et cetera.
Manisha: But this is so, uh, bizarre because I remember, I think, so Hasani had joined us in 2021 when.
Uh, Taliban took [00:34:00] over, captured Kabul, and that time the big criticism was that India was completely caught, blindsided. They had no clue what had happened. They had no channels with the new guys who were gonna take over. So the criticism was that actually the Modi government completely didn't foresee Taliban taking over.
And what would India do? What would our next move be in such an eventuality? Uh. With regard to the press conference, I must, uh, just word for Ana who wrote the piece, uh, she's a columnist to that. She writes this, uh, weekly fortnightly media column called Broken News. The headline is not her responsibility.
That's on us. That's Manisha. Yeah, that's on us. You need a point finger. You know who to point, point. The first line was he came, he got his way, then he relented somewhat, and then he left Alna. No, that's not, that's not the first line. That is, that is the first line. That is the first line. Then he relented somewhat and then he left.
But not
Abhinandan: the headline. I think that's the quibble
Manisha: that has been changed then, because that No, no, no, no, no, no. I
Suhasini Haidar : read him saying he got away.
Jayashree Arunachalam : He [00:35:00] got it says he relented. He, he, he got his way. He got his way. Then he relented somewhat and then he left. He left, left.
Manisha: No, but, but Alana's criticism was more on the male journalist.
In her point of view, she feels that the male journalist. Should have boycotted the first press conference.
Abhinandan: But they didn't know.
Manisha: But they didn't know, like, so Hasni said, and there's a lot of nuance to what, so Hasni says that, you know, there was a conversation after that. The male journalists then realized that, oh, it was only us.
And of course the, the fact that Indian women journalists then released to their ground asked questions and were able to push back is something that should have possibly been the centerpiece. I, I take that. Um, but another controversy was the welcome that they got at the, that TKI got at, uh, D
Abhinandan: in case, uh, uh.
Audience is wondering the signal, the urban, that is one of the most, um, powerful seminar seminaries, Kenya, yes. Uh, of Islam and a Islamic particular school of thought in India it is. [00:36:00]
Manisha: And there was a lot of, and also very
Abhinandan: good mangoes come from there regarding the sweet stuff. It has some of the best man mangoes in the country.
Maan will tell you the best mangoes in the country come from. Uh, fu Complete rumors come from up from the Saharan. Put the urban belt best mango. See
Jayashree Arunachalam : this? This is the insight for which people log into
Abhinandan: HTA hafta. That is why you would never find should be there, because he gives most irrelevant kind of things he gives you, which have nothing with anything.
No, by the way, but like the best mangoes come from mal. Not from the, we have this later a will moderate this debate.
Manisha: No. So he got a heroes welcome Mu and a lot of like liberal, you know, Muslims on Twitter, at least I saw I Habi Jwe. They were very upset with the fact that a force like this should get this sort of a welcome, uh, people who are decidedly anti-women, anti women's education.
Like, so Hasni put, uh, and also, uh, we lost [00:37:00] Danish. Yeah, it was, it was a Taliban that, I mean, okay, it was a war conflict situation, but he was shot dead. There was that controversy also around it. I'm, I don't know. I mean, I, I think it's a little difficult to, sometimes I feel like people also, you know, welcome these guys without really knowing the full context.
You know, it's Taliban, but I don't know if, I don't know. I feel like India, everyone has a phone and then everyone wants to click. Yeah. But I, I do
Abhinandan: think one of the most convenient, not that people like this Ahed person are very savvy. Uh, his retort could have been really, unfortunately, he died. Did your Prime Minister express any regret when he died?
Because the Prime Minister seems to Yeah. He didn't express regret each time any journalist dies. Yeah. Uh, or is even, you know, slightly inconvenienced. Uh, and when this award-winning Pulitzer Award-winning journalist died Yeah. That there was complete silence from the government to India, which is disgraceful.
Manisha: And I think one more thing that Sujani put forward, which is important to underscore that when the women journalists [00:38:00] asked MEA, there's this thing of, you know, it's, it's okay. It's their wish, sort of a thing, which is really wrong. I think at least the MEA should have stood up for their own journalists
Abhinandan: to must expect.
I mean, I can't stand up for, for anything other than Mo I mean, but I, I think, um, uh, Dr. Want to comment in on this?
Khinvraj Jangid: No, it's really not my, uh, you know, uh, research area, but I do think, uh, it's a significant, that's never stopped me just
Abhinandan: fy
Khinvraj Jangid: uh, in the, in the Indian foreign policy. Uh, fares used to say Orbi has a, mm-hmm.
Orbi has Taliban. If the liberal and the left would care about women issues, then Iran has been a very, very oppressive regime for the last four or five decades. You have a country like Saudi Arabia where some years back women were not allowed to drive, uh, not to study, not to go without a male companion.
I think Taliban isn't the [00:39:00] only villain. I think India is an extremely smart position to engage, and in international relations, such engagements actually bring positive moderations in the radical groups. So I think by boycotting and rejecting Taliban diplomatically. It wouldn't bring any change to the well wellbeing of the, uh, you know, Afghan women
Abhinandan: and real politic, in fact.
Mm-hmm. No,
Khinvraj Jangid: it's more than real politic. Yeah. That's a easy argument. Hmm. I'm saying more substantially
Abhinandan: even to affect change. Engagement is a better way to affect change. It's
Khinvraj Jangid: gandian.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: None is untouchable. Right. You don't hate the person, but you hate, or you, you know, work against the person's belief system.
Right. So I think MOTA's arrival and the diplomatic, uh, engagement is actually one of the smartest things to do in the region because the region is slipping through more and more radical, uh, Islamist thoughts. [00:40:00] And if there's a willingness in Taliban to work with India, I think it's a great opportunity.
Mm-hmm. Now India needs to see how much it can really push. Uh, and I think the fact that Mottaki held a secondary conversation with women in India. Is, is really a good takeaway.
Manisha: Two things, just one is India's engagement with Taliban, which of course there's a lot of real politic diplomacy, Pakistan, everything.
But the average person in the urban welcoming Taliban or giving them this hero's welcome, it is not necessarily just for diplomacy. It is what they stand for too. And I think is what people are pointing at.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Manisha: That, no, I don't think, could we have better heroes? I don't think we
Abhinandan: have to walk on eggshells.
Yeah. There is a very powerful and significant school of Islamic thought in the country, especially in the urban area, that if they had their way, would like a Taliban type regime. Mm-hmm. It is, I have myself met, uh, uh, people during my documentary shooting days, um, interviewing them, heads of seminaries who believe [00:41:00] sharia should be the way governance work.
So I, I don't think one has to kind of, you know, sugarcoat it. There are such people. They are significant, they're powerful in the regions, and they celebrate people like Taliban, which is a shame. And they should be called out. So Asen, you wanna come in?
Suhasini Haidar : Okay. So a lot of points on the ban. It's not my field, but as you said, that never stopped us from jumping in.
The truth is it's a seminary. There are, there are students, there are various ages. Mm-hmm. Uh, and as somebody over there pointed out to me when I said, how can you allow this kind of visual, uh, they said
down, downplaying, you know, what it actually meant. Um, but at the end of the day, the ban, the, um, whoever representative did give a statement saying, we are not against, uh, uh, education of women. Uh, to the gentleman who just spoke, I, I really humbly beg to defer when you say Taliban is not the only villain.
Let's remember this is the only country, [00:42:00] Iran, Saudi Arabia, all accepted. But this is the only country that has, by rule, made it that a girl over the sixth grade cannot go to school. That girls cannot go to college. If they're in college. They can't, you know, you saw that video of the Kabul University graduates All Men.
The point is they have made it the rule. They have made it. They have enforced this rule. Women who are bankers, who are clerks, who were, you know, all sectors of business and industry and government, you know, are not allowed to work. Women cannot go to the gym. Women cannot go to public parks. Uh, women cannot look out of a window, and women are not allowed to raise their voice.
A woman's voice has been made illegal by one particular rule, uh, that the Taliban put out to say that they are not the only villain. I do think we all have problems in our countries, uh, gender equality, cost equality, religion equality, all the rest of that. Uh, but I [00:43:00] don't think we can just normalize the Taliban by saying, oh, they're just like everybody else.
There's a little bit of discrimination over there. So I humbly beg to really defer from this idea. Secondly, again, I am not saying that we, that anyone's against engagement with the Taliban, and as I said, it's a no brainer. People have been saying they should engage since 2012. Hmm. But it has the manner in which it was done.
There's no question that the Taliban is at the, at present as an important strategic ally. It is important for India's connectivity. It is important for India security. If nothing else, it is a way to keep the Pakistan, uh, army a little busy instead of, uh, uh, you know, plotting against India. Um, there's no doubt about any of that.
Uh, so I, I would, I would really just say, let's discuss what we are discussing instead of accusing the other of, of, of something that they have not said.
Abhinandan: Alright, so now we would just want to move on to the next subject, although that is also so hasni subject, but she was here only for the first part of the.
Uh, discussion, but in case before [00:44:00] going, you just wanna give us your perspective on this piece deal. I had explained in the beginning, uh, to our audience, you know, how the media around the world has been. Reacting to it, that it is too early to call it peace. It is only the absence of violence. It is to make Trump look good, et cetera, et cetera.
Uh, your thoughts on this, so has before we say goodbye.
Suhasini Haidar : So, um, three points. First, uh, if, uh, the levels of violence from Israel and Gaza have come down, that is a positive. Although I did see an onion headline that says Israel promises to not kill Pakistan, uh, Palestinians at, on such a frequent basis. Um, essentially some of the killings are still continuing.
Yeah, so the purpose is that the levels of bombardment and all have come down for the moment. The second is that all the hostages are back home in Israel, and the remains of the, those who have not made it are being returned. Uh, you know, Albe has, that has not been completed, and that is a positive. The third is, there is still nothing new that has happened because we've seen [00:45:00] these kind of engagements before.
A ceasefire, uh, um, a return of a certain number of hostages, although these were the last batch. Uh, so that, that is an important moment. Uh, but the real question is what happens now? Uh, what happens in the long term since Israel has, in its Knesset said, we will not any longer talk about a two-state solution, right?
What happens next? And can the region seem lasting piece without that step being taken?
Abhinandan: And also I think the connect between now Bibi has to appear before his parliament and the court for his corruption charges. I think the next hearing date has already been announced.
Suhasini Haidar : Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump told the president, uh, why can I pardon him?
Pardon him? Like, I pardon everybody. Huh?
Abhinandan: Pardon? So, uh, I, I, I don't know how his hearing is gonna coincide with sparking of any more violence, but that's speculative. But thank you so much, Ani. We will see you, uh, at the News Laundry event later this evening before you go. Any recommendations that could enrich the lives of our viewers?[00:46:00]
Suhasini Haidar : Well, I think, um, you know, uh, if they can read the works of ffi, uh, she's a form of Afghan politician. She's written out three books. Um, and, uh, uh, she was born during Taliban, uh, 1.0. Uh, uh, uh, and, and, uh, you know, she writes about all that she has been through. Sorry. She was, she was, uh, uh, her hu her father was killed during Taliban 1.0.
She was born before that. But she faced the patriarchy. She faced misogyny as well. Uh, she became a presidential candidate, not that she was anywhere close to winning, uh, and now lives in exile. Uh, so I would certainly say read a little bit of her before deciding that, you know, the Taliban's just a little more aggressive than the next guy.
Abhinandan: Alright, so thank you so Ani, have a wonderful weekend and happy value to you. Thank you. Happy, very happy. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Right before we get into the discussion on the possible piece in the Middle East, I wanna remind you we have a new ENA [00:47:00] project up for the Behar election from our team, Atul, cia, Basant, and Sheva san.
We'll be traveling to Behar, uh, like all our election coverage and all our journalism. It is not funded by the many ads you'll see from various political parties that will suddenly come up all over our election coverage and all our journalists funded by you. So scan this QR code or click in the link below the video window, contribute and make sure that election coverage is public interest and raises public issues.
Because if election coverage is funded by ads of governments and political parties, it's highly unlikely they'll raise your issues. So I will let my colleagues do the talking. I.[00:48:00]
Sting : Yeah, it.
Subscribers,[00:49:00]
Abhinandan: so well, you heard the opening. Uh, views. What do you make of this peace process? Are you as optimistic as many are, or would you count yourself among the cynics?
Khinvraj Jangid: In international politics, it's generally a very ironic, uh, reality. So yes, there is in general a much less, to be optimistic about many things.
But I do think that this, this ceasefire deal, even if it's a negative piece and just an absence of war, uh, means a lot.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: And I think Donald Trump is the real, uh, subject of this change. Before he made Netanyahu compromise and before he used leverage of the Arabic states on Hamas, he compromised himself.
Let's recall in January 20, [00:50:00] uh, five, when he took the off oath of the office, he told Hamas, you release everybody before I take the oath of the office on 20th of January. Else a hell will break
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: Upon you. Hmm. Next month in February, he had this reckless proposal that Gaza be a beach city. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It would be a barrier.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: And I'm working to put people of Gaza somewhere else. Hmm. That's, that's a blatant arrogance.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: But he had that, he also had this notion, which is a very powerful notion in international relations, and I think it's usually that causes the terrible amount of problem. There are people who believe that peace in IR or in foreign policy is usually achieved by strength and use of force.
Now if you look at Trump, what he did for this piece or this limited piece, he [00:51:00] reversed his reckless proposal that Gaza be a beat city. He reversed the notion that the people of Gaza don't deserve to live in Gaza. And he also achieved this deal through compromise. So he did a very powerful co course correction to me.
And I think that's important diplomatically speaking of people, which is why they put
Abhinandan: him on the cover of time. I mean, they, it's an, it's an earned position. Although I, I have my view on it, but let me come up, come to the most unpredictable panelist, Shaul. 'cause I'd never know whether he's gonna be the optimist or the cynic.
'cause it depends on the issue. On this issue. What do you make of it? Shaul,
Shardool : when you're discussing the orange man, you are, you are in No, but forget him. Just listen the Gaza. But how do you forget him? Right? Look, let me point out the ironies. I was very silent during Afghanistan because like, again, like what do you say about it?
The guy who is in charge of culture in Afghanistan. Just, just a statement to point out. It's the [00:52:00] same guy who was in charge of destroying Baan Budha. Oh, is it? I didn't know that. This is a, this is an exercise in lunacy, but coming to Gaza and Philistine, I, I refuse to call it Middle East also, but middle of what?
East of what? That's a British thing. It's West Asia. Okay. Right. So
Abhinandan: as is, as is Europe part of Asia. Yeah.
Shardool : Yeah. That's, that's the thing. Like, that's is very joke, I think. Yeah, very good one. Anyway, so this is the piece negotiation and quote unquote deal where one party is not the party in framing the terms and negotiating the terms, it's a fight between pal Philistine and Israel.
Forget Philistine, Hamas. They were not the party to this. Netanyahu and Trump sat and discussed it and we are very, we Indians, like in Indian media, at least the honest ones. Seemingly honest ones are aware how psycho fancy works. Hmm. The psycho fancy of Trump cabinet is this, that he was trying to be [00:53:00] nominated or considered for Nobel Peace Prize.
But this year's Nobel Peace Prize is being given for things done in 2024 when this orange Buffon was not president, nobody contradicted him. So this is the baseline of this piece treaty. Now, uh, Dr. Jgi said that he has grown, he has not grown. He has let go of his, some of his illusions in favor of other ones because he put pressure on Netanyahu and Netanyahu's own.
I, I think I'm forgetting there is one. Ben, who's an extreme medicine, the other one, I'm forgetting his name. SM Rich. SM Rich, yes. Mm-hmm. SM Rich and his section of, uh, Netanyahu's government have rejected this deal. Right. They did not sign in on ett.
Abhinandan: He's a finance minister, right? Yes, I think, yes.
Shardool : He's a finance minister and he was, I think three or three and a half weeks before this was finalized, was saying that we have decided that there is a lot of money to be made on real [00:54:00] estate.
And he was speaking this on international forum, and I think I also wrote an article, but besides me writing it, the Washington Post did a beautiful and like harrowing report that officially there was something else, but Boston Consulting Agency was creating detailed plan of how data centers will be set up.
Right. How holiday development show
Abhinandan: and Tony Blair's organization has also been accused of being part of that. Yeah.
Shardool : And this peace process, peace Council, Trump will head it. Tony Blair used to be a part of it, but now he's been discarded because. He has no cloud
Abhinandan: bad press.
Shardool : So now, yes, people in Philistine are happy because they are not dying.
This is the other reason, but it is only
Abhinandan: that limited reason, not for any bigger reason. But, but,
Shardool : but why do you keep hostages in a seemingly any, like if you're watching fiction or if you're watching anything to have a leverage, the leverage didn't work. Now the people have been, it's such an incest dance of death that you wanted to stop and like you were talking, and that's all that's happened basically [00:55:00] right now.
And so, and you are not sure that the next things would be followed because like, uh, Dr. J said this is more or less the same deal, which he proposed in February when he was swo in. There's nothing much has changed.
Manisha: So, and he said that he'll give the green signal to Nathan Yahu to fight Hamas. I mean, just yesterday I think.
Right. He made the statement. So I don't know how long this will last also. Yeah, no, and like he said, just a temporary sort of pause in bombardment. What does it really mean finally, for people living there? Where's the rehabilitation? Are they gonna get what they need to rebuild? I mean, all that is so far away.
I don't think there's a possibility of peace till you address what you did to these people for over two years
Abhinandan: now, will he be held accountable for that is one of the questions, because how, I think it was Marco Rubio, or was it JD Vance who trashed the ICC, uh, in rather unkind words. So whether that becomes an issue, but yes.
Uh, you wanna comment on this before I go to Jeri? [00:56:00]
Khinvraj Jangid: Yes. I think, uh, there's this, there's another part of, uh, his, uh, diplomatic maneuvering. He doesn't have a leverage on kaas.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: He actually thought in February that un uh, restrained use of force by Israel will compel Hamas to do what they wanted to do. It didn't happen.
Hmm. So the failure of the military also made him realize, what now can he do? And I think he did something smart. He realized he can't pressure Hamas with anything else. So he used Arab and other regional allies to have the leverage in use on Hamas. But more importantly, and I think Shaul, you, you mentioned, just call me kra.
I think Dr. Jgi is too serious. This, okay?
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: Uh, I think in eight years Donald Trump didn't meet mou, the bus, the leader of the Palestinian Authority. In fact, when he signed the famous Abraham Accords in 2020, he in a way [00:57:00] humiliated the Palestinian identity and the leadership. In Egypt at Cheral Sheikh, he invited Mamou the bus to come.
I don't really think it's a minor event in the regional context, it is almost recognizing the Palestinian state in his aggressive unilateralism that he acted upon. So the fact that Mamo Debas joined the fact that he met him, he's a climb down. It's a big thing.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: He acknowledges that in the post Hamas, Gaza, there would be role of the Palestinian authority.
Abhinandan: And actually that is one of the things that, uh, also, uh, Netanyahu has been accused of historically, that he would not let any other Palestinian leadership come up because Hamas is an easier one to hate. Yeah, exactly. So as long as it's an easy target. Yeah, exactly. So, so you
Khinvraj Jangid: need to really understand that what, listen, I think it's easy to malign, uh, a leader with the [00:58:00] intentions, but his actions really speak very differently.
Things are really changing. Think of it, a country like Indonesia, it's the largest Muslim country. The leader of Indonesia went to, Sharmel Sheik participated in it because all the Muslim countries and Arab states realize that they have got a great deal out of Trump on the Palestinian issue. I'll tell you three more examples, A week before this deal was announced.
He said it, no annexation of the West Bank. Hmm. He will not allow annexation of the West Bank. So he put the, you know, the radical masonic uh, Israeli leaders at a, at a, you know, very sharp note that, listen, this is not going to happen even if the settlers are really burning villages in the West Bank. The second thing, which is written, by the way, in the 20 points, I think the Arab states made him write that Israel will not occupy [00:59:00] Gaza.
Israel will not annex Gaza.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Khinvraj Jangid: There would be no expulsions, there would be no association of the Hamas leaders in Gaza or outside of Gaza.
Abhinandan: So these are big concessions.
Khinvraj Jangid: Third, I mean, next he also said, and this is in writing, Hamas leaders who will renounce violence will say, we, we surrender our arms can actually have a amnesty.
And he stay back in ga. And those who will not renounce violence can go out of Gaza to the countries that will take them welcome. I personally think, let's look at the reality. I think it's a completely, uh, you know, praiseworthy moment, not because of Trump. Let's really not be obsessed with the Orange Man.
I'm sure
Abhinandan: Qatar and all have a lot to do with it because they must have been pissed off and they were also targeted. Right.
Khinvraj Jangid: Qatar, actually, Qatar, you know what, what happened when, when, when Nathan went to the United Nations General Assembly, he [01:00:00] went to the White House a day after the first thing he did.
Trump gave me a telephone. He called the three Prime Minister. He apologized. Yeah.
Abhinandan: And that video went and like Trump, he has to make a reality show of it. It was no,
Khinvraj Jangid: I think, I think in the world, by the way, let's look at the world. Trump doesn't really fear anybody in the world. Sure. Right. Fine. He can't compel Putin to do what he wants him to do, but he doesn't fear anybody.
He does fear the Arab world. Hmm. He does fear the Saudi Arabia. These are the only countries that don't need him. Hmm. He needs them. So look at a blatant refusal of Saudi Arabia from normalizing its relations with Israel.
Abhinandan: And did they also walk out during the rest of the un? Yes, they did. Right? They
Khinvraj Jangid: did.
And Saudi Arabia told, uh, Donald Trump very bluntly, we will not normalize the relations with Israel, period. Trump hasn't [01:01:00] spoken any unkind words to Saudis on this. So I think we are forgetting that behind Trump, or in this event, a greater Arab action has really succeeded in putting him in place and putting Netanya in place through him.
Abhinandan: So net net, it has been quite, uh. You know, radically positive outcome in a long time and one should kind of maybe circumstance compel him to, but Trump has come out doing something good outta this.
Khinvraj Jangid: Yes. And I think there's one thing that you commented about that Hamas was not party to this, you know, deal.
Personally, I don't think Hamas deserve to be part of this deal
Abhinandan: or whether they really want to actually within,
Khinvraj Jangid: within the Palestinian national movement, within the Palestinian national movement, people of West Bank are against Islamic and a jihadi organization that is Hamas. I'll give you an example. [01:02:00] On October 7th, I was in Israel.
Abhinandan: Oh, you were there at the time?
Khinvraj Jangid: Yes. I was all through one and a half year of the war. They killed 10 students of Nepal in a kibbutz. And these were 17 students from Nepal who traveled to and agricultural study program. 17 were there and they were caught in a, in a bunker. Some of them begged that we are Nepalese.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: They killed 10 of them on the spot they killed, but they wounded another six and left them thinking they will die beeping. Joshi was one student. They took him for two years. His mother and his sister, I've read
Abhinandan: about this guy.
Khinvraj Jangid: His mother and his sister have been begging Arab countries through Nepalese diplomacy that please tell, you know, people in Kamas that let this guy go.
Hmm. He's a 23-year-old agricultural student. [01:03:00] Didn't happen. They went, mother and sister went to the United Nations Annual Assembly in in September to make the case that police release him till Monday. The Nepal ambassador in Israel didn't know will Bipping Joshi walk. Out of Gaza or he'll come in a coffin
Abhinandan: and what's the status now?
Khinvraj Jangid: Worst, he came in a coffin,
Abhinandan: right?
Khinvraj Jangid: Yeah. I mean, I, I personally think, let's really re-look at the problem of the violence in international relations. If one cannot justify the violence that Israel does in the name of National Security, then one shouldn't defend the violence done in the name of National Liberation
Abhinandan: by Hamus.
Fair enough? Uh, Jahi hasn't comment on this. Jahi, you have any comments?
Jayashree Arunachalam : Yeah, I entirely disagree. Um, and I'm very happy to malign world leaders without any forms whatsoever. So I have no, no worries on that front. So I'm thinking we're saying Israel will not annex, occupy Gaza, but literally [01:04:00] already does.
It controls the movements of citizens within, it controls what goes in and out. It's demanding the surrender of arms as of a genocide has not been already committed upon the people and not just against Hamas. We're saying that it is literally killing civilian populations. It's not only killing what it refers to as Haas commanders, and yet we assume that people will respond as of Israel is operating on good faith.
We're talking about the release of hostages, but what about the thousands of people whom we are calling prisoners? We're not calling them hostages because they are not white. I think this is the bare minimum. I think ceasefire is step one. I think. Uh. The ceasefire happens, the genocide has to end, the occupation has to end, the land has to be returned, and then the hague and then justice against everyone who has enabled the occupation and the ju and the genocide.
In my opinion, there is only one state and that state is Palestine. I believe in living there equally in that single state of Palestine would equal treatment at equal laws, but I do think there must be justice enacted against those who are responsible for what we have especially seen in the past two years, and this isn't only a two year [01:05:00] war, this has been a conflict as we can euphemistically put it, that has been going on for decades and I think this is the only long-term view that does not excuse or enable genocide and colonialism and all the trappings of shit that come with it.
I feel that there is this tendency of the western world to be very blinded by the idea of white supremacists. I think it is white supremacy that is the great evil that underpins the project in Palestine. I think we are so blinded that the great the. Great Western liberal media talks about this as if it's actually a war instead of a transparently visible genocide.
And I think it is one of the most brutal and televised that the world has seen. And yet I think people don't see it as such. And we use very respectful phrases to sort of tiptoe around it. And I just find it so concerning and so strange that it has taken us so long to get to this point. And yet we are still sort of treading over the [01:06:00] same well, you know, security and geopolitics and violence and I find that strange.
So, but, but,
Abhinandan: and everyone, but, so just wanna check, when you said one state as is you talking about Gaza, you're talking about what we know as Israel also should be Palestine.
Jayashree Arunachalam : One Palestine. So you don't
Abhinandan: believe Israel should exist?
Jayashree Arunachalam : I do not support the right of Israel to exist. Okay.
Abhinandan: That I completely disagree with.
Um,
Jayashree Arunachalam : which I know, I know most people would, but I just feel that, so one, my second major rant is the. Sanct many of the mainstream media, which I was reading this piece in the conversation recently. It was some by some professor, uh, who teaches like ethical studies or something, and he was cautioning against getting your news off on Palestine from like TikTok and Twitter and all right, because he's like, the algorithm works against you and instead, you know, you should be really cautious when you're getting a thing.
You should get it. But my question is why, tell me why is it better for me to then get my news from a mainstream publication like the NYT or BBC or whatever, when they are so openly, blatantly, hostilely, whitewashing all the crimes that are committed by [01:07:00] Israel to the extent that we cannot use the word Israel when we talk about who's being murdered and who's being killed.
So should I fear this mass sellout of the world's most respected media organizations? Or should I fear the algorithm? I
Abhinandan: personally think, um, we've of course discussed even in the media rumble at length on the Washington Post coverage, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
I think all biases, et cetera, take into account.
Organizations that have a professional system of editorial filters and boots on ground, whether you agree with their biases or not, are definitely a more credible source of information than TikTok and Twitter. For me, that's a no brainer otherwise,
Jayashree Arunachalam : except there are a, a lot of journalists.
Abhinandan: Sure. But so I'll just finish.
Uh, so I don't think there's, it's a no contest as far as I'm concerned. 'cause then there is no difference between, let's say, uh, you know, an Op India who payloads RN from not even having one reporter on the ground and news laundry. Uh, so whether, and that is a whole piece on bias and [01:08:00] objectivity. Bias and objectivity are inevitable.
But is it coming from someone who has a history of firsthand. Primary source information. And I think that is definitely there. And one can of course argue about their biases and their whatever, the prejudices, et cetera. But just one thing that I, I would just like to put here, and I, you know, since we have a scholar of the subject here, I have, of course, I've been consuming this purely because of my age, but of late, I have really consumed a lot of information about the Nazi movement.
And I think that is one of the criticism and I think valid criticisms of the, see BB is a very easy guy to hate, just like s. Right. And in so doing it is very easy to project that to all of Israel. But if you see the context when Israel was born before, uh, Germany started the World War, did you know Madden and Square Garden had a pro-Nazi rally where [01:09:00] 20,000 people attended?
Shardool : Yeah. Yeah. America has always,
Abhinandan: do you know how powerful an Nazi movement in UK was before the war started?
Manisha: And it's over a hundred years before? Yeah. I mean, that is just the culmination what the Jews faced was.
Abhinandan: So it's like saying that, you know, and, and I, you know, come to you after the ship, you know, for your rebuttal to this.
And then we let the scholar, uh, give us context as well. I think I completely agree. If you have seen the visuals, and there is no doubt Bibi should be tried as a war criminal, but, uh. Uh, Israel is very contextual. It is like saying why should, uh, you know that Muslims be tolerated here in India, they came as invaders.
You know, you cannot undo history. And in that context, what existed at that time when partition happened? You know, why did partition happen? Papo was a villain. Everyone was a villain. The world in right from the late 18 hundreds to the 13, early 19 hundreds, the world owes an explanation to the [01:10:00] Jews. I don't think there is any, I I think it's a very difficult case to put that the world does not owe them an explanation.
It does. And it owes them a place. Now, one can say what Israel has done today is exactly what they used to fight against. Yes, yes. But to say it doesn't have a right to exist is something that to me, it's equivalent to saying Muslims have the right to be in India. Because where, why did BA come here?
Jayashree Arunachalam : It is absolutely not the same thing because we're saying Israel, if Israel does have a right to exist, but why does Israel have a right to exist in the same space where Palestinians once lived by that entire same logic, if we apply to everything else in the British Empire, would not have been wound up because they have the exact same rights over India.
I think it's colonial logic that we are still trying to apply to a state because we're saying it happened so recently in the past a hundred years of history or whatever, that therefore we cannot look beyond it and say that this is wrong. And I feel like there is no question of the current apartheid state continuing, I think South Africa is the best examples that can and should be followed.
When you're talking to talking about like a truth and reconciliation regime [01:11:00] that exists, I think there has to be a single Palestine which has Jews, Muslims, and Christians coexisting. But after this process of truth and reconciliation, and the argument that I always get to this is that Israel won't do it.
But that is not the point. I feel I
Abhinandan: mm-hmm. Yeah. Du yeah. So I have a lot of say so what? Oh no, not a lot. We have running out time. We have a scholar here. We let him say a lot. You say us briefly.
Shardool : No, no. Be because like there a lot of points have been made. So what, what, what Ri said and what the example you gave, I think it fits on India, Pakistan because that the, the sort of, the creation of Israel and creation of Pakistan is almost the same timeline, right?
Mm-hmm. So I agree with the existence of Israel, but what Cambridge, the point made these two violences, and I sort of agree with Jeri, cannot be compared, like imagine this in any other country's context. Like if Pakistan attacked India, right? We are intimately aware of our Indian sentiments. Would we be justified in wiping out scores of generations and leveling Pakistan?
No, we will not be. Mm. These two are not [01:12:00] comparable. Again, Braham Accords, Braham Accords are. For all intensive purposes, they're following it. They're doing it in Sharmel Sheik, but they're dead because being friends with America right now is being held hostage by American power and their dependence on their finance and their defense treaties, right?
American public especially is very antithetical to providing security to anybody else but themselves, right? So Ibraham court, and you can see it in Saudi Arabia, how quickly they finalize their military record with Pakistan because they need security guarantee besides us. So Ibraham courts and I predict they will be over every country, which was dependent on us for defense has increased.
That includes Germany, which is a significant thing in world, you know, world affairs. Significant increase in their defense budget, building their own capabilities. Again, one more thing. The West Bank issue, it is not just Hamas look. I don't agree with amaz. We've had this [01:13:00] discussion before on this panel, but people find their ways to resist, which are available.
Sure. If you wipe out any option, then
Abhinandan: I could, I could really agree with that. Yeah. So, uh, what does Raj mean by the way?
Khinvraj Jangid: It's a mai, it means, uh, satisfied,
Abhinandan: kraj satisfied. That means you're the last child. I'm the youngest. Youngest, yeah. How did you hear that? Satisfied, but yeah. Oh, yeah. After, after eight,
Khinvraj Jangid: I have six elder sisters do elder brothers.
All right. So I come, come from a village near putt. Okay.
Abhinandan: So, so, okay. Closing thoughts on this whole thing, but before we close, because you are also, uh, a professor of antisemitic studies, I had a question about antisemitism. So just, you know, leave five minutes for that. But on this. All that you've heard.
Could you give your closing thoughts?
Khinvraj Jangid: I'll give my closing thoughts with a, with a book and a, and a philosopher. Hmm. After Edward saying, there is a one person, uh, that have, you know, emerged from the Palestinian society as their philosopher. [01:14:00] His name is Sari Erbe. Sari Erbe, uh, was the president of the Alco University in Jerusalem, which is a Palestinian university.
In 2012, he wrote a book called, what is a Palestinian Estate Worth, uh, published on Harvard University Press. And he really ponders into the use of violence. Hmm. And he, of course, brings Gandhi into it. He brings Nelson Mandela into it, and he really makes a larger point about the Palestinian people and their, uh, inevitable choices.
He warns them that Hamas and Islamic jihadi violent, uh, temptation. Because this is the time, uh, fat lost to Hamas, and Hamas took over, you know, things in Gaza. He deeply worried, uh, he was deeply worried about it, and to be very sad for his, his fears. That's what happened to the Palestinian issue.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: Palestinian issue much before Hamas was remarkably represented by [01:15:00] people like Yaser Raffa. If you really look at Yaser Raffa's journey, he believed Palestine was lost by arms and guns, and it'll be recovered like that. So for two decades, he fights Israel, Israeli civilians with gorilla tactics, even, you know, not, not thinking twice about athletes in Munich, in Germany, right?
But in 1988, he realizes something. Where would he take his people with this fight? He does two things. He recognizes. The two state solution as the legit solution for the Palestinian issue. He also expresses regret about rejection of the two state solution by the Arab leaders and the Palestinian leaders in 1947 when the United Nations gave the solution to the problem.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: Gaza and West Bank were not occupied by Israel from [01:16:00] 1948 till 1967, and he held always Arab leaders responsible for the tragedy of the Palestinian people.
Abhinandan: Yeah. Had that war because you can't wage war lose and say, okay, now we are on war, but, but
Khinvraj Jangid: the third thing he did, third thing he did, he said, I renounce violence against the state of Israel.
I will engage and I will engage on the principle of the two state solution. I mean to say, because he was not Islamist. Because he was not a, uh, you know, totalitarian in his ideology. He was a true nationalist in a liberation national spirits of the time.
Abhinandan: And that's the closest that came to peace. Exactly.
Yeah.
Khinvraj Jangid: Yeah. So what now what has done what has happened, by the way, it's a very remarkable, uh, history. When Raffa talked to the Israelis and had this Oslo peace process, Israelis lost a prime minister for that peace process. Mm. You know, what was Raffa called in the streets of Gaza and West Bank by Hamas in the year 1992 and 1993.
A traitor.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Khinvraj Jangid: [01:17:00] And worst, worst abuse at him. You are a weak old man who now can't fight and hence you are, you are getting sold to the American money. Yeah. So I think we, in the context of the Palestinian national Movement, if you really go through it. You realize that Kamas hasn't done really, in fact,
Abhinandan: I was talking to, and I just like, man, come before beautiful.
Thanks to it. No. Before I close with the antisemitism, man, if you have any thoughts, but on this, I was discussing with Hanya, who's in town, by the way, on the comparison between Malcolm X and, and Martin Luther King. And you can come across many videos of Malcolm X being extremely, um, nasty, uh, saying about Martin Luther King and how he is, well, I dunno if you use the word sell out, but he indicates that he does not represent the true words 'cause Malcolm X.
So I, I think it's a pers a personality. Some people just enjoy fighting. It's cathartic for them. Uh, I, I genuinely do. They just enjoy the battle and they don't want [01:18:00] peace. And there will always be those elements in any grouping. I think many of the right-wing loons in India, it's not like they want, uh, India free of Muslims.
Then they'll want it free of one community, then free of another community. They will always find someone because. It is just too exciting. I mean, they get their thrill out of fighting and they feel virtuous by that. And history will judge who was more effective. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. And Martin Luther King was called a sellout for his outreach for saying, we gotta engage.
And Malcolm X faction used to trash, uh, Luther hooking for that. And I think that kind of dichotomy exists in any struggle anywhere around the world. But,
Khinvraj Jangid: and then it's sad in a country of Gandhi, we don't need to ponder much into this irony of the human being. Gandhi was very smart to say, no violence will get you to peace.
So no ants will [01:19:00] justify the means. Listen, when you read Sabe in the year 2012, he writes two chapters on Gandian, thought of a state and Peoplehood. And he, and he really brings that political philosophy to the Palestinian people saying, it might take us long, but we will be better people with it. Sure.
Abhinandan: Manisha anything?
Manisha: Sure. No, on all of this. I think, I just can't take sides. I feel because I, I think it's just a very complex thing, but in the sense of should Israel exist or not? Israel, Zionism has always been a colonial project and they've never been shy of saying that. Mm-hmm. I think they were just too late to the party.
British had already done it. America, Canada, Australia. They at that point had moral backing. Like it was not for money or loot or plunder, but it was because, hey, we are not gonna be safe anywhere in the world. Mm-hmm. And we've seen what's happened to our people since 500 years. So I think their Colonial project had a sort of a moral backing after World War ii, which meant that this is the only place where we can ensure [01:20:00] safety and dignity for ourselves.
And I guess it was true at that point. And if you look at the context of that time. Countries were land grabs.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Manisha: Everyone grabbed land and you know, that that was the way it was. And I also don't think, I think it has to be a to stay solution now, given what has happened. But to assume that Jews would've been safe in a Palestinian state, I'm not really sure.
Because anti-Semitism is pretty deep in the Arab Muslim world. Mm-hmm. And it's not just because of the Israeli occupation. Sure. It has roots before that. So I don't know if that would've also been something that would've been very easy to kind of accommodate Jews. I don't think the Muslims or the Palestinians would've liked that, or would've happened.
They would've been war inevitably between the two forces, whether,
Abhinandan: sure.
Manisha: But yeah, I think blame the British whenever you see Yes. Some fuck. I agree. I in the world, it's, can I tell you an Indian
Khinvraj Jangid: story to, I knew
Manisha: all of us are actually not fight each other and focus on the Brits.
Khinvraj Jangid: So [01:21:00] Zionism as a settler colonial, uh, idea was a propaganda of the Soviet communism.
And who caught it first in India? The socialist. Would you believe that Ram went to Israel? Ash Naan went to Israel. Ka went to Israel. Ashok went to Israel in the first two decades. By the way, this is why I was in Israel in October, uh, 2023. I was doing my research at Bangorian University for, uh, two years reading the letters of the Indian Socialists who went and stayed in Israel and did a great amount of collaboration
Abhinandan: and provided the legitimacy that it needed to do this.
Khinvraj Jangid: No,
Abhinandan: no,
Khinvraj Jangid: no, no. They were ideological.
Abhinandan: Okay.
Khinvraj Jangid: Zionism was a socialist and a democratic movement, not communist.
Abhinandan: Right.
Khinvraj Jangid: And j So
Abhinandan: that was the overlap, basically.
Khinvraj Jangid: Exactly. Okay. So to, you know, sometimes we do fallacy that No, no, no, no. They became ideological. Human beings don't do business without [01:22:00] ideas.
Abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Khinvraj Jangid: So there was a time in the 1950s and sixties, the tall figures.
Of the Indian left and the socialist movement were in Israel. When I tell this to many of the leftist friends, I said, no, no, no, no. I need to check. I said, you won't be able to check before my article comes out. So when is it coming out?
Abhinandan: We'd like to see that you've quoted from these letters.
Khinvraj Jangid: I have extensively written on this material.
Manisha: 'cause that thing, they were the downward, it's like today, if the its were to rise up, it's the only,
Khinvraj Jangid: no, but they're debating Ra JH is fighting the Communist party in the Parliament saying, no, you don't really have to take a side on this discussion because Zionism is legit. It's not colonial project. Well, we look
Abhinandan: forward to these
Khinvraj Jangid: letters.
The Zionists themselves
Manisha: were very happy to describe themselves as colonial. I mean, there was a Jewish association of colonized. I mean, I think they were pretty okay with the idea of. Taking what's there and displacing people who happen to be there.
Abhinandan: But see,
Khinvraj Jangid: it happened badly for the Palestinian, uh, [01:23:00] history.
I agree. Nobody denies that there was unfairness and injustice involved, but to, but to not acknowledge that Zionism was a legit national movement and to credit that it was a creation of the Western imperialism is, is really a fallacy. And Indian socialist and the left scholars of the fifties and sixties were far more nuanced by the way, they were in the thick of the British colonialism.
They could have easily, you know, taken benefit of this rhetoric against, uh, you know, Israel, Israel, like also Americans also. They didn't,
Manisha: I think going into history also though has its, you know, I mean limitations because what we've seen unfold over the last 10 years. It just doesn't matter how it came about.
One, one thing I can share with you when you go on and done is.
Khinvraj Jangid: No. The one thing I can tell you, I guess Israel, Israel changed for many of these socialist leaders in 1967 when it occupied.
Abhinandan: Yeah.
Khinvraj Jangid: West Bank and Gaza.
Abhinandan: And also it's been moving, it's been fluid, I don't think any position, but now, but, but on this now, I'd just like to close on [01:24:00] this and just quickly, if you can tell me, because antisemitism is a word I've seen thrown around very loosely and carelessly, um, by people in America on both sides of the ideological divide.
Uh, especially any criticism of Israel is very conveniently described as antisemitism, which I think is nonsense. Uh, but at the same time, I wasn't aware and I just recently heard the podcast. I think it. A New York Times podcast only where, uh, some of the slogans, actually some of these us uh, universities, uh, saw students chanting, oh my God, I, I did not know that was happening as well.
Uh, which is why I think the Republicans kind of rode that wave. And while it happened in very small isolated pockets of universities, it was kind of brushed off. And I think that is also dangerous. Of course. Now what's happening is, of course, we can't compare to India. India, you can say anything against Muslims and it is normalized as if it's not a big deal.[01:25:00]
But anti-Semitism as a concept, how is it defined? And especially in this. Age where it is being used so loosely, do you wear that burden of being a scholar of anti-Semitism and you want to distance yourself from it because everyone is paralleling that word to justify their slogans or actions?
Khinvraj Jangid: Yes. It's, it's really tricky and it's extremely, uh, misused and, uh, I think a great amount of misuse came from the Jewish and Israeli, uh, leaders mm-hmm.
To shut the criticism of Israel. So I think they, they should have held the sanctity of this concept because it was actually, you know, conceived for their sufferings in simple terms, any prejudice and bias. Like recently, now I cannot name this person, but I follow him on the YouTube. He's one of the UPSC coaching, uh, professors.
Very good. Recently joined a party that you were very fondly [01:26:00] associated once with. Oh,
Manisha: so many. I don't name it, but
Khinvraj Jangid: I will tell you later. So difficult. But he said. You know why India doesn't, uh, criticize Israel at the, at this moment when the whole world is doing it, not because of Ian right wing, no Jews control the world.
Banks, Jews control America.
Abhinandan: That trope what will happen. Age old trope.
Khinvraj Jangid: I was shocked. He's an intelligent man on many issues. I appreciate him. But the convenience with which he could produce one of the classical antisemitic, you know, thought is bewildering in India. So I think there is a terrible amount of reproduction of things that were really carried, uh, with, with, you know.
Bias and, and prejudice against the Jews. And you're right. In, in, in many of the American universities, uh, slogans against Jews. Mm. [01:27:00] Slogans against, uh, Israelis in general. Mm-hmm. And then the right-wing government of Israel or the right of, you know, Israel to exist were all misused. So there is a deep worry about it.
It's true. Even a country like UK by the way. Mm-hmm. Now UK went against the Israeli threats and American threats and recognized the Palestinian state. Mm-hmm. They did it simultaneously. They have also constituted a national task force to curb anti-Semitism in the uk,
Abhinandan: although I think they did it very late.
But it is consistent. It is consistent with a very huge injustice has to take place for a corrective measure like it slavery would have to happen for. You know, the world to recognize, oh my god, US needs to course correct. You know, colonialism, such a huge injustice has to happen in order to recognize, oh my God, those guys are wrong.
And I think in this case, something really ugly of just the killing of [01:28:00] thousands, tens of thousands of children, uh, and civilians in Palestine had to happen for this to be recognized. But, uh, with that, I would like to wind up this hafta, but we have the emails to read your feedback. Um, but before that, let me thank our scholar who has come.
Uh, but before you go, would you like to recommend something that could enrich the lives of our listeners?
Khinvraj Jangid: Yes. Uh, I think, uh, I will repeat, uh, sari NSBE's recommendation. I think the world really emotionally feels for the Palestinians, and one would really do better to know their history, alright, from their own person.
So, so what is a Palestinian state worth is a great read in these times when the violence has really become the symbol of, uh, that region and those people. Second, uh, there is a book by an Israeli scholar, Benny Morris. Mm-hmm. Who was, you know, made Pariah because he wrote the first book in [01:29:00] 1988 by using the word Palestinian refugees.
Before that Israeli mainstream history was Arabs left for some Arab countries.
Abhinandan: Right.
Khinvraj Jangid: There were no Palestinian people as such. Mm-hmm. Imagine Ban Morris wrote the first book in 1988 and put the Palestinian refugee problem on the top, and he called David Ion the greatest expeller in the region because there were people expelled close to a million.
So he wrote this very fabulous book called Virtuous Victims. What happens when you have this deep. Seated self-righteousness. Hmm. And you refuse to see the legitimacy of the other because you are in a mixed victim hood. So you cannot empathize. You can only have anger and sympathy and solidarity for yourself.
How can you have responsibility to also recognize the other? Mm-hmm. So I think virtuous, uh, righteous victims is a fabulous book, which captures the history of the Middle East, uh, through [01:30:00] the Palestinian and the Israeli, uh, you know, events and the actors and the key ideas. I think B Morris and Nube would be my two recommendations, knowing the fact that we really need to know the history of.
People. Thank
Manisha: you. This reminds me of this really fascinating thing that one of these Jewish authors, Howard Jacobson had said, he's pretty famous. He's written a lot of books in Jewish identity. He said that you should stop when people say, you know, how can victims of Holocaust do this? He said that the Holocaust was not a finishing school.
That you went through it and came out glorious and great and kind
Khinvraj Jangid: traumatized. You
Manisha: actually come out of it really victimized and with a very horrid view of the world and what it's capable of, and to not let that happen again, you're gonna be way more hardened than
Abhinandan: sure somebody
Manisha: who recognizes all the things like humanity or whatever.
Abhinandan: Dr. Kyra Jgi, thank you so much for coming a.
Khinvraj Jangid: Mei, I follow your work since I was a student at JU. Oh really? I travel for you from Sony Path.
Abhinandan: Thank you so much. Now [01:31:00] for the emails your feedback, we only entertain the feedback of subscribers. So if you're a subscriber, you can click on the link in the show notes or just mail us at podcasts@newslearning.com, at repeat podcast@newslearn.com.
Do right hafta so that it comes to the right podcast, and please tell us what we are doing right, what we're doing wrong, what you'd like to us to do more of, and what you would like to do. And what you would like us to do less of. Uh, so please go ahead. Today's letters have been created by Yes. The one only Shaul.
Yes. So let's see. Is there any trend to what he has picked?
Manisha: Stafford says, interesting video, especially your chat about the future of media in Indian politics. I, one tiny disagreement though, one of you all liken ma meme leader. Zan was a local representative in New York State Assembly. He worked on a ground up campaign, spoke to regular people on what they wanted from the mayor and built his campaign message around it.
He's fighting the establishment and by the looks of it, he's winning. I think it's important for us to recognize good politics, highlight good campaigns that focus on people. [01:32:00] We often ask ourselves why we do not have good politics and a strong opposition. Maybe a campaign like Zoran is the answer. Who called him a meme leader?
Abhinandan: Um, so they, I disagree, but I mean, I don't wanna get into that 'cause that is what we're discussing. And also it's slightly biased. Zoran was a little. I think seven, six, 5-year-old when we were shooting monsoon wedding, his mother Mira, I worked with him. He was this little really smart kid, uh, like all our,
his, but I think he, he got 30,000 volunteers for his campaign, man. Yeah, yeah. He took on someone who had raised millions. Yeah. So I don't agree. He's a meme leader. He actually had boots on ground who were volunteering for him, not just. Swiping up and swiping down and clicking. So yeah,
Jayashree Arunachalam : see, and also end of the day, he has mastered social media game.
That is also why I think it's very easy to dismiss him as a meme leader. It's like when
Manisha: people say, oh, you're a YouTuber and they wanna dismiss you. [01:33:00] You Gere says Hello, have kudo for reporting on Indian public spaces. Being an autistic person with spatial awareness issues, walking outside in India is like playing that chicken crossing game in which you can even lose your safety or even life.
I hope you're covering that as well. I will support the project as soon as I receive my salary. Also, when is the next News Laundry app update coming? It is much needed. I would also recommend people to read Manu Joseph's latest book. It's much cheaper in ebook format. My other recommendations are below the myth of the good Old Days.
In my opinion, every Indian must go through all these recommendations, including Manu books, especially pensioners, sangi uncles who didn't even protest while they were getting snipped forcefully by Congress and have suddenly become Hindu. Shes, while they have one foot on the grave.
Shardool : Yge, you don't miss your words to share Yge fellow autistic.
But I would say one thing, he mentioned it. I, so I remember, mm, a few weeks ago there was a letter was saying that news on should choose the right Manu, Manu, Joseph, and all, well, I would say already [01:34:00] has. If you don't know my name was Manu, official name long ago, who was it?
Abhinandan: Alright, before you took interesting,
Manisha: Rin says, my dear, RPM wasn't stopped by farmers.
It was all Indian media bullshit. RPM stopped on a flyover in village. Farmers were beneath the flower bridge, Lee Farmers, or the tractor trolleys, not a dog, was let on the road all the way up to the rally ground that day. That date was raining and there were empty chairs at the rally place. So our supreme leader got off the chopper at Burda and decided to travel by road two hours journey, and by time for the chairs to fill up, he was six kilometers from the rally place in for rose poor.
And his converse suddenly stopped over the FOB and looked there for 15, 20 minutes. Mainstream channels started crying. That PM is under threat. No doubt. Those farmers who were beneath the FOB shouted slogans and he returned. Hmm. Ah, I mean, Wolf Fly thing was a bit,
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Manisha: Raman says, dear TNM NL Team just finished listening to Htan two South [01:35:00] Central episode, and, oh my, it was like a total page turner in audio form.
I hung on every word pushing my earbuds deep to ensure I did not miss a word, and at the same time eagerly awaiting what the next speaker had to say. Every word spoken was pure gold, especially since Aand expletives, Delhi flair were beeped out. They were beeped out,
Abhinandan: I guess so, because Tanja doesn't allow bad language on the, this is
Manisha: the best podcast episode I've ever turned tuned into.
It was, it's, it's a great idea to keep this special episode outside the paywall. I've already shared the link with a bunch of friends, hoping that it nudges them to subscribe, aiming to Soto's prediction, how times shall changing. Here's hoping I stick around long enough to cheer on the good stuff unfolding.
You're all killing it. Keep the magic coming. Yours an exuberance. Thank. Thank you so much. Abbi, Asha says, hi, NL Team. I'm a regular listener to Hafta. I appreciate its long format as it delves into topic in depth and helps understand what's going on instead of just creating triggering emotions when one reads just simple headlines given out by mainstream media outlets.
On a lighter note in your recent hafta, I [01:36:00] found it entertaining when AB then talked and joked about mean comments on him. I think having a segment where the familiar NLT members read mean comments on them would be a fun thing to do, but of course, only if they're okay with it. Yeah. Actually, we did this on our 13.
We should actually should make it as a regular thing, but we should do it regularly because some of them are just very creative. R says the NLT and M crossover. Because, and then brings it up so frequently. I just had to write and to say that the Slackening piece of funding for urban elite story might not necessarily be because we feel scrutiny.
I think many of us rely on thoughtful thought provoking journalism to examine our own biases and improve. However, as a Sally professional who doesn't make much but subscribes to wire caravan, scroll news, laundry news, minutes separately, and also succumbs to appeals for funds for Gaza, floods in India, different charities, sometimes there just isn't enough money to fund individual campaigns.
Mm. Which is why I think Josie's idea of expanding reach is critical. Harnessing new tech for this does seem like the best way to go, although I must confess, I'm not sure how all the best, at any rate, keep up the good work. Your work is [01:37:00] greatly appreciated. Thank
Abhinandan: you. We have a new center Project up, Bihar election.
I'm sure all of you are keen. We have a wonderful team that will go there. Basant, Atul and Sanja accompanied with a wonderful team of producers. So do contribute. His a QR code link is in the show notes. And now let's get the recommendations. Gehi, let's start with you.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Um, just two recommendations. So the first is a piece called House Arab.
It's the, it's first person story of a fact checker who worked with a New Yorker, except that he doesn't name the New Yorker, but he ex describes it so well that, you know, it's the New Yorker. And he was the magazine's only Arab employee and he was working there when, um, October 7th happened. So he writes about a lot of things.
He writes about what home means to him, the incredible pressure on being the token Arab who needs to speak out, but also he really wants to bring nuance to the kind of coverage that and hate he's seeing online. And also he finally gave up and I mean, it's a bit sad, but I really enjoyed this characterization of his liberal colleagues.
He says at work, it was surprising to be [01:38:00] surrounded by demonstrably smart people who believed, for example, that Donald Trump's election was somehow surprising that meaningful wealth history redistribution was behind the political pale, or that individual human beings and not systems were histories main actors.
He says that they felt these are all aberrations and deviations from the American norm that would eventually be corrected when the arc of the moral universe finally got around to them. And I think this describes liberalism quite beautifully. So I enjoyed it. It's a very good piece. It's very short, so you can read it in like 10 minutes and then go for lunch.
And I'm recommending a fiction book because I haven't in a long time. It's called The Wild Hunt by Emma Sekel. It's set in a remote isolated island off the coast of Scotland where locals are normally dealing with horrors that immediately followed World War ii, but also supernatural horrors, epitomized by the souls of the dead that visit them every October.
And this sounds very grim, but it's actually very. Melodic and beautiful and oddly uplifting. So please read it. It's good. [01:39:00] Okay, Anisha,
Manisha: nice book recommendation. I'm gonna recommend three part series by our colleague Basant Kumar on Rahan Governments obnoxious spend on. Promoting itself. Uh, all three parts are out.
The second part is my favorite, where we discover that the time and economist also got ads over a crow, uh, from the Dami government, the BGP government saying that, you know how amazing it is. Imagine the kind of money that they're putting in. The Economist. The
Abhinandan: Economist, but the Economist is getting asked from the Army government.
Manisha: And I think you, especially subscribers should read it. Non-subscribers also read it just to also understand the kind of money that's out there floating around for those who wanna make money in the name of journalism and how tough it is for people to actually reject that whole system, which we have at News Laundry.
But when we do that, it shouldn't mean that we are poor. Understand
Shardool : our sacrifice. It's a very
Manisha: Yeah, understand our scra a roundabout saying, please subscribe because this is a lot of money. I mean, 300 [01:40:00] core five years, just print, crazy amount of money gone into obscure magazines. Who, I don't know what journalism they've done.
It is just friends. Some are friends, some are just saying Ami is great. Some are just saying, oh look, Rahan is now the greatest state in the world. But the kind of money that people can make in this profession by not doing journalism is just mind blowing.
Shardool : And the context of, you have to understand Pushkar, Pushkar, Dami was, is that Cm who it was like, it was so difficult for him to win his seat, Emily.
Yeah. He's not like in his own party. Right.
Manisha: Uh, this is a state that has had a hill, uh, you know, land cracks, uh, floods after flood every season. Yeah. And the kind of money they spend on this is just crazy. But also, I just want everyone to understand what it takes to reject the sl swats of money, which we've done.
Abhinandan: I also have a related recommendation, which means you
Manisha: should support us.
Abhinandan: Yes.
Manisha: Shouldn't mean good intentions. Should be rewarded.
Abhinandan: Rewarded [01:41:00] actually, yes.
Shardool : You want my recommendations? So this is a very like sentimental time for me. Everybody knows. Mm. So my recommendations are why should
Manisha: everybody know it's sentiment?
Everybody
Shardool : knows because I, I was very morose in the early areas. Okay, so three recommendations, which are extremely personal, but some people will like it. So the first one is a game called Hell Divers too. I think AB and Manisha will like it because it's a sort of commentary on US terms and very snarky, like, I'll give you one quote.
The game name is Hell Divers Too. Like one of the favorite quote is, managed Democracy offers absolute freedom. Freedom from the burden of choice. It is like interesting, you are on campaign forever. So it's a very nice game. The rest of the two are the same. I give in Chacha also two of my favorite songs.
The one is, and because this around the valley, there's a debate of crackers and religion and culture and divide. So Kaari is a 2022 song. It's a balochi. And Ava ti and [01:42:00] il, uh, collaborated. It is Hezbollah chi folk music and rap music, which is from Black America. And if you, if you know Indian languages, if you pay attention, you will understand what they're saying, some of the words.
So again, that context goes. The other one is, um, in July, 2015, pundit Raia and Zaki Ruan had a concert in Sweden, and they ended that concert with a small piece, which was written and composed by Doc, uh, Zaki Ruan for his granddaughter, who was newly born for his daughter's daughter. And it's such a beautiful flute and tabla peace.
And to signify it too, I personally like them also, that these people who are trying to divide us for KBank here,
Abhinandan: very upbeat, very encouraging. I have two recommendations. One is, uh, a podcast series. From CB, C, news and Politics, the Making of Musk. [01:43:00] I think I really like this, which is why her once recommended The Economist podcast, this, I think it was an eight part series on G, the premier of China, to really get an insight into what makes a person take how they think it.
If you can get a really well-made and well researched podcast on their growing years and what, what are the context that they grew up in? It, it gives you a lot and it kind of explains a lot of their behavior. I think it's fantastic and it also explains why Trump, uh, Trump will wrong. Musk is such a.
Horribly lunatic. Why he's such a horrible lunatic. The second is, uh, a video that is going viral han ever since news this expose. Oh, uh, so it is not on YouTube, it is just being shared on in WhatsApp. WhatsApp.
Manisha: And it's so fake who AI It is. So
Abhinandan: I have been told who has initiated this. It is some people who have got hit by a story there.
Uh, so this has been [01:44:00] shared extensively in Rahan. So I just thought those of you Jomo, who are behind this, give you a helping hand and we will play some clips of it here. Uh, so that, you know, our audience also gets to know that when you do a story, which calls out the bullshit that states like Han and their leader is doing, this is the pushback that you get.
The C grade production qualities of this next time, those of you who've done this, just call me directly. I will make a better video than you, than this for you more credible, better production values, and I will charge you very minor fee, not as much as you pay to the others.[01:45:00]
On that note. Thank you so much. Happy di. Thank you. Wonderful producers ish. Thank you. Anil three a's Anil ish, SHA and Mane. Triple
Shardool : a
Abhinandan: ul. Yes, Jesse.
Jayashree Arunachalam : Thank you
Abhinandan: and thank you, the rest of you for supporting us. Uh, this podcast as Diwali gift is outside the paywall.
Manisha: Yay. Yes. Noise.
Shardool : Something like ee but don't let people divide you.
Diwali is beautiful. Yes it is Aios.[01:46:00]
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