NL Hafta
Hafta 564: Killing of Madvi Hidma and aftermath of Red Fort blast
This week, Newslaundry’s Abhinandan Sekhri, Jayashree Arunachalam and Shardool Katyayan are joined by journalist and author Rahul Pandita and The News Minute’s Sudipto Mondal.
The discussion begins with Rahul’s new novel, Our Friends in Good Houses, and then turns to the recent killing of Maoist commander Madvi Hidma in Andhra Pradesh.
Rahul recalls meeting the man who recruited Hidma as a child. He then talks about the “tragedy” of the Maoists and the banned Communist Party of India (Maoist).
“One reason why we are witnessing this downfall now of the CPM office is that this somehow, with the passage of time, steered away from what they had set out to do, which is to basically protect the adivasis and their natural resources. But during this course, I think they became obsessive about fighting the state…and became, in their own ways, stakeholders in these natural resources. That is the tragedy of the CPM.”
Sudipto says, “The worst part about the Maoist movement is that it follows one basic principle of armed conflict, which is that the people sending people to war are old men. The people going to war are young boys."
The conversation then moves to the Red Fort blasts. Abhinandan asks the panel about the video of a key suspect in the case justifying suicide attacks, seeking their views on whether airing such footage is irresponsible or journalistically necessary.
This and a lot more. Tune in!
Hafta letters: Feedback on Hafta Live, Bihar polls, on Nitish Kumar
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Song: Chhod Aaye Hum
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introductions and announcements
00:03:37 - Discussion on Rahul Pandita’s Book
00:11:40 - Headlines
00:18:33 - Killing of Madvi Hidma
01:00:38 - Red Fort Blasts Aftermath
01:21:36 - Sudipto & Rahul Pandita’s Recommendations
01:24:58 - Letters
01:36:40- Recommendations
References:
Fight to Breathe: Combat Air Pollution
Our Moon Has Blood Clots: A Memoir of a Lost Home in Kashmir
Hello Bastar: The Untold Story of India's Maoist Movement
OUR FRIENDS IN GOOD HOUSES: A NOVEL
newslaundry interviews Rahul Pandita
Recommendations:
Abhinandan
A new experiment in remote work … from the inside
The unbearable uselessness of India’s Environment Minister
Jayashree
A nation on alert: How hoax bomb calls are wearing out India’s cops
How ‘expert’ consultants justify megaprojects
Shardool
Ekta Kapoor, Shilpa Shetty and a queue of netas: The great suck-up at Baba Bageshwar's yatra
India’s trains are running on luck? RTI points to rampant drunk train driving
Sudipto Mondal
Gabriel García Márquez – Collected Works
Rahul Pandita
Walking to Jerusalem – Guy Stagg
Check out previous Hafta recommendations, references, songs and letters.
Produced by NL Team.
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[00:00:00] This is a Newslaundry podcast, and you're listening to NL Hafta
Abhinandan: Welcome to another episode of Hafta. And I say this every week for the last several weeks, and I will continue to say it. Welcome from very polluted, disgusting aired NCR Delhi and surrounding areas. Uh, while so far nothing dramatic is being planned or done by those who are in positions of power, uh, the youngsters of Delhi continue to suffer with the lungs being poisoned forever.
Old people like us don't give a shit 'cause we led a very healthy, happy childhood. But congratulations, those of you sitting on your ass doing nothing and worshiping our politicians. Who are also doing nothing. Your children will be very proud of you when they're adults with weak lungs. So well done. You all On that positive note, let me [00:01:00] introduce the panel in the studio.
Hello. Joining us online from Gga, which is as polluted as Delhi is Rahul Panta. Hi. A
Rahul Pandita : little better than Delhi Abbi, I would assume.
Abhinandan: Okay. A little better than Delhi. Yes. You're probably right. A lot better than Delhi. From the coastal city of Chennai is Gehi Nala. Hi Jahi. Yes.
Jayashree: Hi. Hi. It's just rained and now the sun is out throwing
Shardool : shade at us.
I was about to say podcast. Is he insulting me? What is he doing? No, no, I dunno. He,
Abhinandan: he's saying something in Hindi. And also joining us from K Kata, our wonderful senior editor from a partner organization, news Minutes. Suto Man. Hi Suto.
Sudipto Mondal : Hi. Thanks for having me. Yes, welcome. Ize on the board.
Abhinandan: Yes. Thank you. Uh, I would, I am starting the conversation with Rahul.
I just wanna know a little bit about his novel, but before that, I would like to announce Hafta is [00:02:00] outside the paywall this week. It's not behind the paywall. Uh, and that is because we are announcing a 26% discount on our joint subscription with News Minute and News Laundry. If you're wondering why the government of India Modi Ji to support the print media, has raised print ad rates for Sari ads in.
Print publications by 26% so that your hardened tax money can go on for more Sari ads with him and his colleagues mugshots, telling us how great they are. Uh, so when they go high on such things, we go low. So we have reduced our rate by 26% till the end of the month. So it's a good time not just to buy a subscription, but to buy, to demonstrate to these people that we are not so excited about you giving handouts to those people who sit on panels criticizing handouts to the poor, who are bloody living on handouts [00:03:00] themselves.
So you voluntarily. Can subscribe to news and journalism that is publicly public funded and not sari funded In the week where Skar raised the ad rates for print by 26%, we are dropping our subscription rate by 26% 'cause we do stuff differently here. Right. Um, there's a QR code. While I'm saying all this, you can scan that, you can click on the link below and make this happen.
It's important. Thank you. Now, before we get into the discussion and the headlines of the week, um, I hope we we'll have you in our studio next week or the week after that to talk in more detail about your latest novel, but Raul pta, op Shaik, a formal introduction. He's an award-winning journalist. I'm sure most of you already know who he is.
He has worked for various publications, newspapers. I will not go into that. He has written, uh, one of the most authoritative books, uh, on the maus movement called Hello Buster, the Untold Story, India Mouse Movement. And he has also written, ah, moon Has Blood Clots on which I had interviewed him on [00:04:00] News Laundry.
The link for that interview is also in the show notes. You can buy both these books and the links that are provided with this. And his latest book is a novel. He has ventured into fiction, and it's called Our Friends in Good Houses. It's his debut as a novelist. So why fiction from nonfiction Raul?
Rahul Pandita : You were there in the launch.
You know, I, I, I talked about it, but
Abhinandan: Yes. But audience who wasn't, I'd like them to. Of course, of course,
Rahul Pandita : of course. I was just preparing you for a repetition of what you've already heard. Yes. So, no, essentially, you know, I, I've traveled a lot in the hinterland, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes, uh, I mean, you experience a lot while you're traveling in politically turbulent, volatile areas.
Um, and though I had the good fortune of working with some great editors who understood the concept of good writing and long form journalism, et cetera. And, and who gave me the leeway to [00:05:00] experiment with language. But still, I felt that there was a kind of an inadequacy between my experience in these areas, uh, and what I was able to put on, uh, you know, put in my journalistic dispatches.
So I think this fiction is my way of coming to terms with that additional layer of, uh, meaning. Um, and I think it's also to make myself understand, uh, you know, some of the things I have seen, uh, to make sense to myself. You know, I think it was, uh, Ian Forrester who once said that, um, how do I know what I think until I, uh, I, I see what I, uh, what I, what I say.
Uh, so I think the novel is, is my attempt to do so, so that I'm able to think about what I saw.
Abhinandan: And I guess there's. Inevitably autobiographical in a lot of ways. You [00:06:00] know, your protagonist, I've read the book for those of our viewers who wondering how, I know so much Anami, uh, is doing a fellowship in the US as you had done, uh, has, is from Kashmir as you are, has reported from Maoist areas as you have.
So it's, I guess really there's a lot of autobiographical elements in it. So is it. That close to your real lived experiences, or it's more further from your lived experiences, or it's 50 50?
Rahul Pandita : I think it's a 50 50. Uh, also that, uh, you know, uh, of course any work of friction has autobiographical elements. Uh, you know, if Beckett had a murmur in his heart, uh, so did his first character called Murphy.
So you, of course, you, uh, give and take from, from your own life. But I think more than my lived experience, what I've tried to do in this novel is too, uh, [00:07:00] set the background in places which I'm comfortable with. Hmm. Uh, so, you know, of course I know Kashmir and of course I know the ma. Uh, so you, you know, you pick up things from head and there, especially in the first novel.
Right. Uh, the challenge of course now is to, uh, see what I do in my second novel if I end up writing one at all.
--: Hmm.
Abhinandan: Right. Actually, it always worries me when people say that your first novel is autobiographical because I'm, I won't say halfway through, but I'm probably one third through my first novel, which I've been working on for the last two, three years.
And when people see who, what my protagonist is like, and if that indeed is true, that it's autobiographical, then I. Should quickly be hanged because my, my protagonist is such a wild piece of shit that I'm wondering No, whenever people say this, I, I start saying, yeah, Ani, maybe not here. But that's your
Shardool : assessment of it, isn't it?
You're
Abhinandan: making the obvious statement.
Shardool : I think there is human aspect to this here. First we [00:08:00] look inward. Once we sort of answer our inward questions, which are insiders only, then we honestly look at people outside. There is no other way to do this. Gotcha. Maybe, let's see. Yeah,
Jayashree: Rahan, could I ask you a question though about the book?
Which is that, I mean, yes,
Shardool : please.
Jayashree: As someone who's been a journalist for a really long time and now to writing your first novel, I feel like in journalism you're always very accountable to something else, right? Like truth or the subjects of your stories or whatever. So did it feel like very freeing to.
Sort of throw all that away and write it, write fiction, like what was the experience like?
Rahul Pandita : I think it took me, uh, a little while to tell myself that I'm free, uh, from the rigor of journalism, uh, that is what I was doing in a couple of my initial drafts. Uh, you know, uh, the novel contains some of my own own experiences in, in Buster and elsewhere.
Um, and what I felt in hindsight, what I was doing in, in, in my initial jobs [00:09:00] was. I was still trying to be a journalist.
--: Yeah.
Rahul Pandita : Which meant that, you know, though I had the freedom to place some of these events independent of, uh, time and the chron chronology. I was still doing that. Uh, I think after one and a half drafts I realized that I don't have to do that, uh, in fiction.
Uh, so in that way it, it set me free. And, and the other thing is, you know, the grass is always greener on the other side. I, I remember when I used to write, and I've done three, three and a half books of non-fiction, which are essentially based on my own journalistic travel. Um, and I would lock myself in a room and, uh, then go through tons and tons of notes and, uh, then light a secret sometimes and say, oh my God, I wish I was writing fiction.
'cause you know, I would just shut these notebooks and then, uh, go back to my mind. Imagination. I could imagine anything, and then write from there. But then when I started writing fiction, I [00:10:00] was like. Oh my God. I wish I had access to my notebook so that I could, you know, fill in my today's 1000, 1000 fill under words for the day.
Uh, so I think both these, uh, genres provided enough, uh, challenge to me. Uh, but I think in terms of, you know, that additional layer of meaning, which I was talking to you about, I think because I was able to do that in fiction in this novel, I think I'm, I'm really glad about the fact that I could do that.
Abhinandan: Right, right. And I think if you really wanna be liberated from accuracy, in fact, you can always become an anchor. Exactly. Exactly. A news anchor. You have that option. You've had that option in the past. I know. For, so, yeah. So, so, and, and before we get to the headlines, Jahi uh, Soto, are you at liberty to disclose what you're doing in called Qatar?
Is it an undercover operation?
Sudipto Mondal : Uh, no, I'm, uh, kind of chasing a personal story. Uh, um, oh, the one you mentioned spoke to me about Yeah, yeah. All right. So I managed to trace one part of the family. I'm now track down the family in [00:11:00] Bangladesh. Uh, we'll see. And this, uh, I'm trying to do this because this is the best time to look at Bangladesh or go to Bangladesh, and this is the worst time to go to Bangladesh.
Mm. Um, so I mean, the borders are now massing with people who are leaving because of this. SIR thing s are running am mock at the borders. Uh, the border check was harassing people who are, uh, fleeing and going back to Bangladesh. All of that stuff is happening and in the middle of it, I'm trying to find that side of the family.
Oh, great. I I
Abhinandan: think this will make a fantastic conversation when you're back. Um, look forward to that.
Sudipto Mondal : I don't know if I'll go at all, because if I don't find a clue on the other side, I, what I go saying
Abhinandan: that's true. Yep. Mm. Anyway, good luck. Thanks. Uh, thank you. Uh, so Jhi, let's get the headlines.
Jayashree: Yep. So here are the headlines of the week.
Uh, hid ma one of the commanders of the CPI Maoist, who was killed in a police encounter, Inre Pradesh six Mao took killed in the operation, including [00:12:00] hid MA's wife. Uh, powerful blast at the Alam Police station in Riner, killed nine people, including the police and forensic staff, and injured over 30 others.
The police chief called it an accidental explosion, and an investigation is underway in the Redford blast case, uh, the chairman of Alpha LA University was arrested by the ED on maning laundering charges. Uh, you'll remember that the suicide bomber in the blast worked at this university. DNI has also arrested for more accused, bringing the total arrest in the case to six in Behar.
Nish Kumar was sworn in as chief minister for a record 10th time along 26 ministers. This is in a cabinet where the maximum strength can be 36. Samari and Vi Kumar Sinha retained their position as beauty cms. The Supreme Court has asked the Commission for Air Quality Management to consider shifting sports activities scheduled in November and December to safer and less susceptible months.
The amicus QE said children are most at risk from pollution, and said that holding sports now is like putting them in [00:13:00] gas chambers.
Abhinandan: Yeah, I mean, I remember a few years ago a relative of mine who was competing at a state level. I mean, I went with him and I was like, you have a match. At this time in this weather, they said, yeah, that's how it is.
It's, it's a disgrace. The way we, it's a hair brain policy, the way we treat our children, man. Really, it's a disgrace.
Shardool : Only a minuscule percentage of people can actually run and play sports. Mm. And when you ate, but you're tired, you lungs absorb more oxygen. So you are essentially putting more, more danger toxins into them.
Yeah. You know, attack, they're getting attacked more vigorously. The healthiest people are getting worse, the earliest. They just, meanwhile,
Abhinandan: when the Kelo India happened in Bihar, uh, this year, Kelo India was hosted in Bihar, obviously because elections are in Bihar, and it was, the inauguration is done by Prime Minister Modi made a speech about how he wants India to play more.
Yes. And ish, Kumar also added the two most sporty people I've ever come across in my life. First of all, did you know that if the child wasn't [00:14:00] there for the inauguration, where. To hear p odi talk about sport. You could not play the tournament, you could not land up for your match. What? Yeah. Why? That was the rule.
The registration had to happen before the speech and you had to be there for the speech. 'cause I guess the mo, Mr. Mo likes seeing full grounds. Yes. Uh, so yeah. Congratulations, Modi. People in NC will play Hello a lot more and the lungs will bless you and your completely useless environment minister.
You're doing a great service to everybody, you know, as a,
Rahul Pandita : as a long distance runner, Abby, I've, I've stopped running in this weather now. I mean, it's,
--: yeah.
Rahul Pandita : I'm old now and I, my lungs can't take it any longer. Um, but, you know, we face this pollution for several years now. Mm-hmm. And in, in the past few years, you know, I have of course run through this weather and then suddenly you go to a place where there's absolutely no pollution.
song: Yeah.
Rahul Pandita : And then you run. I think about five to six years ago, I was, uh, in December I was at au uh, in, in, along the India Pakistan border. Yeah. And I [00:15:00] decided to run on this wild, you know, absolutely deserted path, which is a man by BSF. We got permission from the, from the BSF, and, you know, I ran solo on that path because I always wanted to do that.
And suddenly after like three, four miles, I realized that I'm moving more quickly and, you know, I can't, I can't hear my own wheezing sound.
--: Mm.
Rahul Pandita : And suddenly it came to me that, you know, I'm, uh, running in a, I'm running in clean air, basically.
abhinandan: Yeah. Makes a big difference. It makes a hell. Lot of
Rahul Pandita : difference.
Yes.
Jayashree: Yep. Well, meanwhile, the Supreme Court overturned its earlier order that prohibited the government from issuing environmental clearances to projects already underway. So effectively this allows the center to grant such clearances once again, retrospectively. The Supreme Court also said that courts cannot set timelines for the president or governors to grant ascent to bills.
This is after President Robert s um, pastor moved a reference. She'd sought clarification [00:16:00] on the court's judgment that had prescribed such timelines.
--: Hmm.
Jayashree: Anor Bna, the younger brother of jail, gangster Lawrence VNA, was arrested by the NIA on Wednesday. This is when he was brought to India, following his deportation from the US in UAR pr.
A decade after the lynching of Mohammad Ala, the state government has moved to withdraw charges against all the accused. He was lynched by a mob in which included the son of a local BJP leader. I mean, I found this a shocking case, I assume. Yeah. I don't remember. I remember when it happened, it, everyone was so shocked.
That was when all the writers decided to return the awards. The Modi government was really rattled. Yeah, there was an election coming in Behar, and now I feel this is barely even a blip and I feel yeah. Somebody had written this when, I'm forgetting whom, but I think this is the real report card of what the 10 year, what the last years of Maori governance have been like, which is that this is such a normal sort of headline that we'll read and then we pass over.
Move on. Correct. In German Kashmir, the State Investigation Agency on Thursday rated the Office of Kmi Times. It alleged the newspaper activities were in to the state. [00:17:00] The editors have dismissed the charges as baseless and they called the radar coordinated crackdown that aimed at silencing the publication.
Ahed. The EC special intensive revision. A boots level officer on Kerala died by suicide, allegedly due to work pressure and protest BS across Kerala. Boycotted work on November 17th, the Congress has also announced a protest rally against the exercise in Delhi. In the first week of December, Donald Trump said the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman knew nothing about the 2018 killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
This is when he welcomed the prince to the White House. His remarks contradict the 2021 US Intelligence Assessment, which concluded the Prince had approved the operation.
Abhinandan: And when that journalist asked, I dunno whether he saw the clip in the White House, he says, why are you embarrassing of guest over here?
I mean, completely forgetting what he did to Zelensky, who was also guest in the White House and Donald Trump. You have to
Jayashree: call that reporter. Pig.
Abhinandan: Yeah, piggy. Quiet piggy.
Jayashree: Nice one. And finally, former Bangladesh Prime Minister, she Kasina has been sentenced to death in absentia by the International Crimes [00:18:00] Tribunal.
The court founder guilty of incitement ordering killings and failing to prevent violence. And those are the headlines,
Abhinandan: right? Thank you. Uh, just wanna remind you again that we have reduced our subscriber subscription rate 26% till the end of the month in celebration of the government hiking their ad rates that they give to print publication and newspapers by 26% using your money.
So you can scan this QR code and tell the government you'd like to choose how you spend your money rather than them paying for their mugshots, right? So, uh, coming to the two big, uh, you know, headlines of the week, Rahul, I guess this must be a depressing, I mean, I don't know if you suddenly, uh, have received a bunch of requests to write a piece or appear on shows.
I, I know you turned down decline many panel discussions on broadcast, but, um, on this entire Maoist, you know, clean up, so to speak, which is happening and on Kashmir, and you have been an area expert on both [00:19:00] these issues and both these issues are headlines this week up. Let's start with hid MA's, uh, killing.
And, um, before that there was several surrenders in the last few weeks. Tell us, you have been there, I'm assuming you have met many of these people. What do you make of it? And is this an inevitable outcome of a clash between a state and a community which has chosen violence depending on who you listen to inevitably because nothing else is left, uh, and this is that inevitable outcome of that kind of clash?
Or is this a blip but can come up again because the fundamental causes are not sorted out?
Rahul Pandita : Lemme try and explain some of this to a story. Abby. Uh, you know, I've never met Hema per se, but I'm met a man who recruited him, is a man called [00:20:00] who, uh, in many ways is. The first a recruit from Tigar is the f among the first batch of people, ADE Azi, a recruited by the MA in Tigar.
He comes from a village called Pomade, which is very close to Andra. Uh, so he recruited Hi Ma when Hi Ma was a 10-year-old boy, and he was recruited as part of the Bist, what they call the B, which is their, you know, the, the, the children unit it B basically. And then from there he, uh, rises quite, uh, sadly, you know, he's sent to BGA in Mother Prh, um, which, uh, is an affected, uh, district then takes over, uh, Buster in many ways, meets, uh.
Uh, you know, then becomes the deputy commander of one of their foremost battalions and then finally takes over the PLGA as their, you know, the, the most [00:21:00] efficient mil military battalion, uh, which undertakes most of their, uh, attacks, including the, the biggest effects you, you know, you would've heard of in the, in the last few years.
--: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : So, so, so, but you know, Barna was young himself when, when the first batch of MAO came knocking at his door in permit, and, and he was reminded of those times. He had recalled those times. He had surrendered later, uh, I think in early two thousands. He surrendered along with his wife, was also.
Pet parrot in their house. Uh, and he told me of the time that, uh, uh, when the Mao gorillas came for the first time, and, you know, it was the initial time and the were very skeptical of these outsiders.
--: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : And there was a myth around them that, you know, they would make you drink a portion by which they would make you follow, follow them.
So they were very skeptical and they would run away from ma. [00:22:00] But of course, through the passage of time, you know, they gained the trust of, uh, ADE. And then, you know, the, the entire region turned into this strong word, you know, even after bna many, many years after. But surrender, and I'm talking about 15, 16 years after his surrender, I once went to his area of operation, uh, you know, his area of influence in Buster again, 15, 16 years after his influence.
And I spoke to men and women. About him and they remembered him. He was extremely popular, uh, in those areas. So my whole point of telling you this story is that one reason why the why we are witnessing this downfall now of the CPM office is that this somehow in the passage of this time, steered away from.
What they had set out to do, which is to basically [00:23:00] protect the diocese, protect their natural resources. Uh, but during this course, I think that they became obsessive about fighting the state.
--: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : Uh, and of course, they became in their own ways, stakeholders in these natural resources. Uh, so that is, that is what, that is the tragedy of, uh, the, the CBM.
And of course, as his headman, others are concerned. I think we had seen it, it was just a matter of time, uh, because, you know, the entire structure, CPM Malist has come to an end now, and it was just a matter of time before he would surrender and he would be killed. But unfortunately, in this case, uh, you know, he has been killed.
Uh, you, we have seen, I mean, it's really started from 2010 onwards during Mr. Peter Dunbar's time.
--: Mm-hmm.
Rahul Pandita : But of course, in the last few years, think, you know, there's a, there's a purpose to this. Uh, what has also helped the Indian state is the formation of what they call the RIA battalion, you know, which [00:24:00] is essentially a force which is like a part two of Salva.
Salva was a complete failure as we know, but some of this RIA battalion has worked in favor of the Indian state because it comprises of, uh, young azi who of course come from the same, uh, from the same society, from the same villages. And many of them are a significant component of this battalion is also surrendered malice, so obviously they know that the rain, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think I also get the sense that in the last at least couple of years, the police, the tis got police especially, has worked. Uh, very hard in breaking the ranks and files of the MA gorillas. I think they have made inroads into, uh, especially, uh, the company from where the bodyguards of important leaders, significant central committee leaders come.
Abhinandan: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : And, uh, this is why, you know, you've seen so many [00:25:00] central committee leaders being killed in the last few months, including the general security, which if you had asked me, say about five years ago, I, you know, I would've found it unbelievable. But it has happened. Of course. The bigger question, uh, you know, that is where you, uh, finished your question is that what happens to Buster once the MALS are gone?
You know, they're as good as gone now. Frankly, what happens now? Now that is a fear, which many, uh, you know, who have followed Buster for a very long time, have that. Is this the end game? What happens after the Mao are over? So many activists, vis or buster feel that it is just a ruse for the corporates to take over the land and the natural resources beneath it.
Uh, but come what may, you know, as a, as a vis of Buster, I hope, uh, that at least a part of this largest, you know, this natural resources, uh, [00:26:00] comes, uh, to, to to, to the rescue of the there, and they progress and benefit from some of these resources,
abhinandan: right? Uh,
Jayashree: do you think that's likely though? I mean, I, I know that's what the fondest hope would be, that that would happen.
But given that these regions are still some of the poorest, more underdeveloped and they're sort of bearing this heaviest of burdens, and especially when the movement itself sort of comes from this injustice and deprivation, even though it sort of spiral into violence after that. But do you even see that happening?
Because I think I dreaded in, I think, the wire, somebody had reported that after they'd regained control of a forest in Oli, the Vic government, but they sort of handed over that land to Lloyd Steel. So would we not sort of anticipate that to happen anyway with the government, especially when it's got lots of friends in corporate places?
Rahul Pandita : I, I think we are, but it's also true that some development has taken place there in [00:27:00] the last few years, especially in terms of road building, uh, the introduction of electricity in many areas. Um, introduction of mobile networks, et cetera. Uh, the formation of many schools for Azi, uh, especially in, uh, you know, the BA region and which you're talking about.
Uh, so obviously some of it is gone now. One can argue about. Why a development of a certain kind has come, you know, because the MA always alleged that this development has already hap only happened because, uh, the Indian state wants better roads for the forces to come in between. But from my experience, I know that it has also benefited the ses, for example, um, in the cutoff region in Ora, in Angary district, uh, remember this is the place where a district collector was abducted by MAOIs in the February of 2011.
--: Mm-hmm.
Rahul Pandita : An officer called VI Kna. Now this is a cluster of 151 villages, which is completely cut off [00:28:00] from mainland Orisa. It only had a little Lexus from the side of Andra. Now a bridge or a a river called group. Group, which was in the docks for many, many years, you know, that planned it, but they could not make it.
I think they finally made it during the COVID time, 2020 1 22. And it has completely changed the life and fate of the diocese in these 151 villages. So it would be unfair, in my view, to say that, uh, you know, only the corporates will take this. Of course now, you know, the natural resources of the corporates take it.
I, and I hope not, uh, that is a different matter, but at least in terms of some basic development, uh, which these regions really, really badly wanted, I mean, it it, and that has also helped Indian State in many ways. You know, I personally remember, you know, know people who gotta see the outside world on their, on, on their mobiles.
--: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : I, we [00:29:00] also had to kind of understand the kind of poverty we are talking about. Uh, you know, it is not a poverty we see in cities. You know, that, that that poverty, that marginalization is. Absolute. It is sometimes beyond our imagination. I mean, in my experience, I know of a very committed Mao gorilla who was sent to a very small town for the first time.
And when he saw that small town, you know, very small, five or six shops, the glamor of it, uh, hit him so much that he never went back to, to the Malitz party. And he's now with the police, helping them, uh, on the border of, uh, Lanka and Rd, uh, to, to, to fight the malitz. So, you know, that kind of, uh, marginalization deprivation, you, you're, you're looking at.
abhinandan: Yeah, I, I had spoken to a journalist who had met people they'd never seen an automobile. I'm talking about 12, 15 years ago. I was shocked [00:30:00] that, uh, you know, in the mid two thousands. But, uh, Alito, you've, you know, also reported and written and it's spoken about this. What do you make of this purge? Yeah, it is from a national security point of view, the way the home minister describes it as a huge success.
Uh, I mean, I honestly have no credible way of knowing this other than experts like Rahul and, and Soto who have covered this, but some, you know, some situations are very difficult. There is no doubt these areas have been marginalized and ignored in a way which. We cannot imagine till you actually speak to people who've been there.
So of course it has to come up. But yet, the imbalance of power in India where, uh, and much as we criticize America, uh, or even South Africa, I've myself seen a documentary where a tribe took on one of the largest corporations in the world who had taken over [00:31:00] their, uh. Historical land for burials and they won the case and they got it back.
I can't see an Adani ani losing a case even if they were to do something wrong. So given that context, what do you make of it? And is the, um, sympathetic lens, uh, on maoism sometimes a little romanticized and self-indulgent? Uh, or is it something that needs to be put out as a narrative? Otherwise it would just be this complete villains as if they are some empowered people, um, who, who have amazing resources take on the state.
Sudipto Mondal : Ah, thank you. Uh, so, uh, firstly I wanted some of the work I've already put out. Uh, they, they, they're in two parts. One is, uh, there's a couple of articles that are done when, uh, I'd want to cover this, but these got elections. And the, there were two big, uh, takeaways, uh, from that [00:32:00] thing. One, that there was a bipartisan consensus on Hindutva and in the name of different thing, I mean in the sense that the SGI or the BJP would look at Hindu in the way we know, but then you had Bpe Bagga, so Bpe Bag came up with this idea of this RAM one.
And, uh, his father actually was an anti-car activist, you know, uh, who, who was more in favor of tribal, uh, deities and things like that. Some of that was focused on how my work was focused on how the BJP and the Congress were both doing this one kind of Hindu. And then I also got into this question of what are the MAOIs doing in this, uh, entire thing?
Because one of the things I've noticed about the areas where the MAOIs party is, uh, you know, present in significant numbers, has some influence. Also overlaps with areas where the one and the other, some projects are working. How do they manage to coexist? [00:33:00] Why do we not hear of more Maoist? Uh, well, it's not, like I'm saying desirable their violence, but we've never heard of a Maoist attack on some Avia, uh, project.
Right? So that was one of the things that was, uh, uh, the area of my focus in that, uh, elections. But, uh, more recently, you know, uh, when, since this, uh, latest operation KA guard and all of this started, I've been in touch and see my instinct whenever I go into the, uh, field, my instinct is to basically do a small little deviation from what a typical SA reporter would do.
You know, which is, I avoid like the, you know, I avoid all, uh, as many sources as possible who are, uh, from those elite sections. Even though they're ideology, they might identify as left, they might identify as progressive. They might identify as human rights activists, but I tend to steer clear of that and go into.
The place looking for voices were, uh, you know, from the communities and representing from the ground. So on [00:34:00] this occasion, when this violence and this thing started, I spoke, I started talking to three very important people in, uh, Manish Kja, Sony, sorry, and Degree p Johan. And these people started saying some very interesting things about the Maoist party and about the civil society groups who suddenly became very active against the, uh, QAR operation.
Um, Manish Kja, who is very well respected, even, uh, by the Maoist party. You know, they keep calling to, referring to Ada. You know, he's somebody who has on multiple occasions tried to bring them into, uh, the mainstream, invite them for key stocks and failed. So one of, one of his first reactions when, uh, the civil society groups, you know, Harbo, this whole, uh, crowd, they came out and said, oh, well the state is once again, uh, you know, going on this final solution kind of, uh.
And said that, Hey, you know, when the killing was happening of the ordinary Carter? And that has not stopped over the years, over the decades, they have con [00:35:00] consistently been, uh, maed down by the security forces. The difference in this kaar operation is that the leadership is getting wiped out. And now that the leader leadership is getting wiped out, you have their nominees or their, you know, whatever, their spokespeople in the civil society groups from Hyderabad and Delhi, you know, flying down to say that, Hey, stop this operation.
And that was a very, very surprising statement coming from Manish Punjab, because in the moment he said that even the MA leadership responded to what he said and said that they were very hurt by what he said. And you know, but they didn't really challenge the foundation of his argument. Why? Because Manishh was saying when you guys were strong, you didn't want to surrender.
And it was so ridiculous at one point because the MAO leadership people, like, there's this character called Rubish who finally surrendered. Right. So, uh, rupe in his interviews for some, some of these, uh, outlets and Buster, like Buster Talkies was saying things like, uh, the security forces are coming after us, attacking us, but we have, uh, [00:36:00] sealed fire.
And how ridiculous you are an armed group. You are in a military campaign, war, war against the state. The state is coming after you with guns and bombs, and at that point you announce ceasefire. And what do you expect that the state will just back off?
--: Hmm. Like
Sudipto Mondal : what is the, I mean, it's so ridiculous what Ru patient, some of the party members were saying at that point.
And ultimately what happens, Rupe also surrenders. Hmm. Right. Uh, so this is one aspect of the critique that came, then came this entire, um, conflict, your contest of ideas within the Civil Society University itself, where. And, uh, Sony soy had a run in, you know, where, you know, um, Tia started saying that, oh, well these are people who are compromised with the state because Sony soy and all of that have had enough of this, uh, you know, going up against and banging your head against the state.
They've taken a more pragmatic line. They, they, you know, all these three people, Manish degree and uh, Sony, [00:37:00] they take a more pragmatic line and they're not as strident as the Hyderabad activists. And so there was some unborn that happened between them. And ultimately Sony goes on to float another organization, which is called C-A-G-E-C-A-J or something.
Such, such Alliance for Justice and Equality or something, you know, uh, all of this shows what that, there is a contradiction there, the basic fault line in that movement and in the human rights movement, which is that the leadership, the faces of those movements are all from outside. Uh, whether it's a, you know, uh, or a that whole, you know, Haal and all of them or, uh, people who are in the leadership of the party that you know, uh, the general secretary who got killed and so many others against, big against this backdrop emerges this character called, and on this particular aspect, I've done these two warism episodes with Harpal and with Johan.
[00:38:00] Now again, from the, uh, other local rooted leadership of Burg, civil Society Leadership. One of the other things that came about, hi Ma, was that here, look at the party. It has not managed to create a central committee member. Paul Dur member from the Azi community in decades is a few people in that core formation so much for their advocacy movement.
They have not been, been able to create a leadership among the Azi has come to that position of leadership. Through a process of elimination of the rest of the leadership. People kept dying. People kept dying post, started getting vacant, and he kept getting pushed up. That is a narrative in the, uh, in those surface, like I said, you know, and they say, now that your party has on its last legs, finally you are trying to project this leader, as you know, the phrase of the party, the
abhinandan: authentic indigenous leadership,
Sudipto Mondal : some last little authenticity, some legitimacy, some credibility saying that, Hey, hey, here's your Ari leader.
This is your guy [00:39:00] now this is the guy who's the face of the movement and this is the face of the fight and all that. And that was described as a very merely mouse kind of, you know, uh, line to take by the party. And to then also, you know, people like Sony was saying, Hilma just surrender. Come out. These people are turning you into the bullseye.
And Sony was rights.
abhinandan: That's inevitably what happened. And Sony
Sudipto Mondal : was right. Sony was right because the other surrendered, so many of these fellows surrendered, right? All these people, people, they were surrendered. And the Ali, civil Rights people, anyway, whatever. They couldn't arrange for his peaceful surrender.
No, finally, it's a failure. Also.
--: If he died in
Sudipto Mondal : an encounter,
--: it's
Sudipto Mondal : a failure. Or you know, uh, what's whoever or
all these people who have been holding press consequences in Delhi and Hyah, they have to explain for why they couldn't facilitate the surrender of a man, you know, from Congress is in power there. No,
abhinandan: it would be a very [00:40:00] interesting, actually, film. Of course, it's very difficult to make a film that kind of glides to the complexities of a child, soldier becoming.
This dreaded, uh, you know, Maoist leader. But before I, yeah, there was, there was a thing,
Sudipto Mondal : sorry, sorry. Just, you know, one line just to come capture this thing, you know, the Maoist described him as, uh, the student of a revolution or the student of the revolution or whatever, and I call him the child of war. A boy who was 14 years old joined this movement, right?
And after that, and it is, it is just so our child, soldiers soldier and child carers, okay? This is, there is, so, there is so much for this party to answer. This party has so much to answer for. And the last point I want to make is what finally defeated the maus party. It is not technology, it is betrayal, right?
Mm-hmm. Betrayal can mean two things. Oh, traitor. Mara Mara. Betrayal can also mean that people wisened up to the ideological contradictions because the entire DRG [00:41:00] uh, um, uh, UL talked about some better. What's Buster Battalion? I know. DRG, the district reserve guard, right? These were almost entirely 90% made up of surrendered, uh, Mao.
Now, are you telling me that every surrendered MAO is a, uh, turn quote mercenary back staber? Mm-hmm. If they are, then how did they first get into the MA movement at all? So, when they joined the MAO movement, they were revolutionaries. When they figured out their competition that came out, they became backstabbers.
And that DRG is essentially what broke the back of the Mao party. So therefore, it was in a way defeated by its own people. And that's the tragedy. That's the irony. That's the biggest example of the party's competition,
abhinandan: right?
Rahul Pandita : Uh,
Sudipto Mondal : no, no, no. Two
Rahul Pandita : things here, Abby, to, to, to compliment what our friend has said.
You know, there are two strands of conversation here. One is of course, so I'm not getting into one because you know, that's a completely different episode. But two, [00:42:00] just briefly touch upon this, you know, there's also in many areas. It is also turf war in many ways. So on one hand, in places like Risa for example, you know, there are Hindu to organizations, uh, then there are church organizations, and in the middle of this, there's a maus party.
So, and so it's ultimately, you know, who's the boss of that area. Mm-hmm. And there's no place which proves it more clearly than Kmar, uh, you know, where Somi, Laman and TI was killed in 2008 by MAOIs Manly on a Ari by church organizations. And that led to the, you know, the Al Rights. Now that's a completely different story.
You know, we don't have time for that. But there is of course, truth in the other strand of conversation our friend just had, uh, which is to say, you know, even if you look at case, for example. You know, the entire [00:43:00] machinery, the lawyers, et cetera, you know, they came to rescue of, uh, people like, and Guam, you know, the, the, the, the urban, uh, the urban elite, the urban, you know, people accused of, uh, accused in this case, and of course, and of course fairly, uh, and now, you know, they're out.
But I know people who are still inside. There's absolutely no conversation about them. There's a man called surrender regarding who's a dle, who's a lawyer, who is accused in this case. He has spent years and years in jail Now, who is going to speak for him? The other thing is that comrades Sono, for example, you know, Sono is one of the, he's Ji's brother, one of the, you know, most important central committee leaders of the CP Maoist, you know, who has spent about 50 years [00:44:00] in inside the moment, he's among the first batch of MAOIs who entered, who was sent by nda, Palita Maya himself.
Now Ji is dead in, he died in November, 2011. Mm. Now suddenly, you know, after spending 50 years inside the moment, giving his youth to whatever, you know, we can have ideological differences with him, but he has spent 50 years in the, and jungle life is very difficult. Mm. Right. And suddenly he has decided to surrender.
Of course there are work ground workers and sympathizers, which is partner, which is partner for whom Mao, you know, they'll be somewhere on the college street right now where our friend is sipping coffee and calling him a trade. I have seen Facebook posts where, you know, they put JI'S picture on one side and solo's picture on one side, hailing cji as a hero, and soon was a traitor.
Come on, have a little respect for
--: yeah, the
Rahul Pandita : wisdom of a man who has spent 50 years inside the jungle. [00:45:00] And then he has realized the futility of the moment and he has realized that they need to save the remaining, uh, uh, from, from this terrible war between the Indian state and the Mao gorillas. I think to me, uh, you know, in the entire moment, uh, today, uh, I think, uh, I, I've not met him yet after his surrender.
When I get a chance to meet him, I'll tell him that you are the wisest man in the CP office. Sono. Hmm.
Sudipto Mondal : Can I, can I just contradict that? I mean, I want to contradict it in, you know, in terms of, in the same terms saying if a person takes 50 years to wise enough, right? In the course of which hundreds and hundreds and maybe thousands have been killed.
And let's not forget that here's a party which reserves the worst for people who quit in the way that Sonu [00:46:00] did. Right? Uh, he himself, I'm sure, has ordered many, many, many such executions because the worst in the Maoist party is reserved for traders, informers, and all of that. Now, my thing is that here's an upper cast outsider man from not that who's not from that region, comes and starts a quote unquote revolution right?
In which a majority of the people who die are the people who are quote unquote, trying to save. I cannot romanticize, I cannot say, Hey, good job. Thumbs up. You're the, you know, you're a wise man. Right? Where was your wisdom when blood was flowing? Where was your wisdom when, you know the state was any day more powerful than you?
And your, your, your revolution itself had many, many holes. Right? Now coming back to this thing of, you know, they would do these knee jerk kind of responses to sekar violence and, you know, uh, ahman, uh, you know, he gave this example of, uh, the killing of, uh, [00:47:00] in Kal and all of that. There was a similar killing in, in Ka.
So in Kara, there was a direct massacre, uh, by a person who is, uh, a father of, I mean an a grand uncle of, uh, your ti this chap called ti. He was the person who was the main, uh, you know, guy who was behind this massacre of ditz in Kadu. And to arrange that killing the Mao came and shot dead this fellow.
Okay. Now, the backlash, the, the, the kind of, uh, you know, uh, crackdown that happened by the Greyhounds and the other police forces at that time on legitimate dalis activism, you know, purely because of the fact that they made this connection that, oh, DaLiss have become moos. Right? My only thing is that at different points in time, the weakest sections of society, Dali Azi in the Ana in, and all these places where these people have been active, you know, legitimate activism from them has resulted in terrible violence from both [00:48:00] Mao and the state.
People like Soni, sorry. Kja will testify to this. So I have, I'm not gonna shadow here. Any of these people. Uh, so
abhinandan: yeah, so if I, I just wanna bring the Yeah, yeah. Panelists in and then come to Rahul once before we quickly, I just want to discuss one aspect of the Kashmir, uh, you know, terrorism that happened in Delhi, but on this, I think it's always a complicated thing about is after 50 years turn around, like for example, even I sometimes wrestle with, um, many journalists who I have known for a long time, some who are in their seventies, um, a couple maybe pushing 80 who suddenly have gone very quiet or kind of, you know, soft, uh, you know, comply with the dict dictate of the time.
And I'm like, what happened to the fight, uh, for journalistic values? And I have spoken to one who I still respect. [00:49:00] Um, although that person has become very quiet, even if not compliant, I think sometimes we forget the. Fatigue of a human being as opposed to the energy of an ideolog. Uh, like I, I mean, I don't know.
I must have participated in dozens of the first time me and Rahul spoke is because he wanted to interview me as one of the protestors of the al movement. I think he were doing a piece for open, uh, and I was one of the key people who was creating ha I mean, I'm not gonna go that anymore. I, I, I, I don't, people call me for protests.
I'm not old, but I'm old enough not to do her house anymore. Maybe at it I won't even want to fight for pay to keep news. What I'm saying is I, it's always a complicated kind of space. And of course, when the stakes are higher. The judgment is higher. Uh, but yeah, I think it's a, it's an interesting thing to maybe, [00:50:00] uh, explore in a long form documentary, a piece, a film, I don't know.
But you know, before I come back to our two experts and we want to Kashmir quickly, charul on this issue, would you have anything to add? Although I'm just so, uh, informed by the two guests we've chosen. I'm glad we haven't. To our audience, you may need to Google many of these people they mentioned in places.
I know some of them purely because I've been around so long. Uh, and that'll include improve the algorithm of a YouTube. You'll stop getting those popups of why rating is good for your brain, and you may get popups of news that you should know about. But yeah, go ahead. Shaul.
Shardool : Apologies for my voice. Delhi Air has had gotten to me.
Mm-hmm. So Rahul brought up a point I was thinking about making.
abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool : And. That also comes up into Ritos point, and you also said it like, if you remember the last time we were talking about this? Mm-hmm. So even then the point had come up that there is a finite [00:51:00] time, a finite level, that you can stop the progress.
Ultimately, some level of progress will reach you by some means. Of course. It depends on geography, it depends on the state, it depends on what kind of opposition is there and what kind of exploitation is happening. But still something will happen. And the moment. War continues. Like to start a fight, like you said, ideological fight or fight for journalism, it takes a very different human being to continue that fight for a long time because war changes you, because ultimately we are human beings.
abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool : That factionism that if you call it in Hindi Vir Killer Eye, that that tribalism that comes up and human beings are, you know, we are designed primarily to serve ourselves. Mm-hmm. And if you have exercise power, let's say for two districts in must where the progress hasn't come because of you, because of the overall movement, but people now started to, you know, realize that we can have [00:52:00] this.
So now your goals are not aligned anymore.
abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool : And these things again come, of course there are bigger points in this of, of marginalized societies, but human beings are human beings. Everybody ultimately wants to be like my family and me. I wanna live better life. Sure. And like you said. Ultimately people think like there comes a time in everybody's life and people who talk about this idealism, like, uh, uh, suto was saying that on putting on Facebook, these are traitors and all.
Mm. These are people who have never been into fights. Mm-hmm.
abhinandan: Like,
Shardool : you know, and I know like fighting for a long time for anything, it takes a lot out of you. Mm-hmm. It changes you permanently in many ways. Sure. And of course, people want to live. The culmination of life, like he spent talking about sono 50 years in the forest.
He doesn't need anybody's approval for what can be done and what had to be done. No matter what you think about him, the culmination of his life, he wants to live in peace because that is ultimately what makes you happy.
abhinandan: Well, [00:53:00] I guess Ashoka is one after calling war to embrace Buddhism. But yeah. Jesse, your comments before we go back to our two guests?
Jayashree: Just one very small thing, which is that, I mean, I think quite rightly was explaining how the party has so much to answer for and I think, but one thing that we should also never really forget is the state has too much to answer for also. And that is something that we should be querying constantly. I think at News Laundry itself, we've published, off the top of my head at least 15 or 20 stories by Pratik on, you know, villagers being branded, Maoist by the state, being taken away with little being killed with little or no proof.
I feel they've become this sort of collateral damage in this war. And um, Rahul brought up the be accused, I think. We should constantly query the state's treatment of people. It claims are maxile, sympathizers, and if killing of innocence, de-legitimize maoists as it should, it should also de-legitimize the state.
And I think the state's monopoly and violence should be exercised with tremendous caution and maximal restraint. And instead, [00:54:00] in this entire war on left-wing extremism, I feel like we've seen the opposite. So, and violence of the state and violence of the citizen are not the same. Yeah, I
abhinandan: co I completely agree.
Hmm.
Jayashree: And one final thing, which I, which is my issue with a lot of the media coverage of these events, and of course it's very difficult for, there are very authentic, there is very authentic journalism that comes out of these parts. But also by and large, your newspapers, your websites and so on, it's so unreliable.
It's either accounts that are. From top cops and therefore they're like two line updates of what has happened, five killed. And then you have so little context to go on, but it's just covered and reported as is. Or you have that sort of glorified coverage. And I saw a lot of it in the last couple of days, which is like the birds were, had fallen quiet, but now the birds of the jungle sing again.
And I just hate this men's adventure account of something that is so violent and so tragic and is told with absolutely no context. And finally, I think I am by nature, a very suspicious person. I think [00:55:00] any right side, right thinking person in India should be suspicious. So I am very suspicious of. The state's accounts of who it's killed and why it's killed them and who has died in the process of it.
Attempting to kill somebody who is very important or who is named, because I think armed insurgents don't exist in a vacuum, so, right.
abhinandan: Yeah, no, on this, I just want two minutes from Raho and so une then I wanna move on to Kashmir. Just one line, a couple
Rahul Pandita : a couple of things Avi. So, you know, with what said, there's absolutely no contradiction.
He's right. But you know, when I was referring to Comrades Sun, I meant it more in terms of what in NDI is called De I, those. Right. You know, you know, one day you realized a couple of other things around it. You know, sometimes, uh, people who have spent so much time with the idea of violence or with the idea of a revolution, sometimes they don't know what to do with [00:56:00] peace.
--: Hmm. And.
Rahul Pandita : We have seen the same case of Akan, for example, in in Sri Lanka, right? Akan got many chances, uh, to kind of come to an understanding with the Sri Lankan government through the, uh, you know, Norwegian government, et cetera. You know, there were too many, uh, intermediaries who could have insured peace between two parties, but then he chose not to.
And then, you know, what happened to him? 2009? I remember traveling with the Mao Party right after, uh, Pakan was killed, uh, in, in Srilanka, and there were discussions around it. Uh, you know, about whether the Mao party should learn any lesson from what happened to, and of course, they chose, chosen or not to, you know, from my long experience with them, I know many, many people tried, uh, especially around 2009, 10, you know, there were many people.
Uh, track two, track three. You know, we often use this in context of Kashmir, but even [00:57:00] in, uh, you know, MAO status, there were many efforts by well-meaning people, uh, to do that. But I, I think, uh, the Mao party was not in, you know, uh, serious. Uh, the Indian state was partially serious and partially not. Um, but a larger, you know, a couple of things we must also remember.
One is that, you know, of course ideological differences with violences, et cetera, et cetera, that it's all fine. But we must also understand why something like Maoism and flourishes, uh, for, for a very long time. There are a couple of reasons in my, uh, view. One is the Indian States absolute allergy to nonviolent movements in this country, and the abject failure of mainstream left parties in India.
Which is given rise to something like, uh, something. But having said that, we must also remember to give just [00:58:00] 1% credit to Maoist. If it were not for Maoist, you and I would not have been talking about this region at all. Yeah. But there would've been completely wiped up there. There would be no roads, no telephone networks, uh, no tribal schools, nothing.
Right. So we must remember that as we end this discussion.
abhinandan: Sure. Uh, last word.
Sudipto Mondal : Yeah. So I suppose I just want to like, one basically summary of what I all said so far is that I'm talking about appropriation and I'm talking about who represents the interests of whom. Right. In the case of, I mean, Jai was talking about bringing focus upon the state, but from my gaze, to me, the state civil society and the Maoist leadership is made up of the same sections of society.
Right. The state is not. I first like just one, you know, building block. It is made up of individuals. It's an institution that's made up of individuals and those individuals invariably, whether it's the superintendent of police or the general secretary of [00:59:00] the party, or the spokesperson of a civil rights group, right.
How do they invariably happen to be Sona is a question, I suppose that is a ideological challenge for all these things. The state has an ideology, civil society has an ideology, and the maoists have an ideology. Mm-hmm. How is it that this happens is one thing and the context of d It's a great example.
It's a pilgrimage, a adults pilgrimage, uh, uh, a am threat pilgrimage that's been happening for close to a century. And enter these outsiders from Delhi there are doing their LA alarm and whatever the hell, you know, and they appropriate that thing. And then before you know it, the state cracks down. The state never cracked down in these decades, close to a century that ditz were doing the same pilgrimage.
Right. And I just want to like, you know, quickly possible read out from one person who's the most articulate on this subject, uh, section from his writing, bbo. Uh, who's written very, I mean, critique these people, the rebels very sharply. You know, he says, rebels who employ violence systematically, often attribute their decisions to the quote unquote people.
But the people in [01:00:00] truth have little say in the matter. They became, they become spectators of the political process, which is the denial of an essential democratic, right. Those who agree with the rebels may, may well be content, and to the extent that the majority agree with them, the contentment may appear universal.
But contentment is no substitute for democracy. A fact that comes alive, that they, the agreement ceases. What goal BPA is basically warning us about is that this isn't just about violence. It is about the political control behind it. When guns speak. Ordinary people stop being political agents. They become bodies in somebody else's war.
And the worst part about the Maoist movement is that it follows that one basic principle of armed conflict, which is that the people sending people to war are old men. The people going to war are young boys. Yeah.
abhinandan: Right. I've actually, I'd like to do a longer discussion on this. Maybe, uh, we should do it next week, a week after next.
'cause there's just so many questions I have in my head. But if I may just move on to the Kashmir, um, issue now, [01:01:00] uh, I'd like to start off with Shaul. I don't wanna discuss the whole thing 'cause we already over an hour, but there's this one aspect of this new which, uh, prime minister, very casually, who is it?
No, I think it was a cop who said that the intellectuals are more dangerous than the uneducated, violent terrorists, et cetera. The police
Jayashree: told the court, I think,
abhinandan: yes. I mean it's also a bizarre that even
Sudipto Mondal : that you can make story.
abhinandan: Yeah. So, um, there was a video of Dr. O Omar justifying suicide attacks and there has been discussion on should it be shown by responsible journalistic organizations or platforms.
Uh, one school of thoughts has it actually. Encourages others. It can be a motivational factor or it could be a factor that causes hate, yet others say that it is something that actually shows you that house. And apparently reasonable, rational, educated person can also get radicalized. So it's a good warning.[01:02:00]
So I just like to this panel to, you know, tell us what they think because all are or have been journalists at some point that, how would they measure whether something like this being aired or broadcast or put online by news organization, is it irresponsible or is it journalistically important? Char, when you start.
Shardool : So the first thing, like I, I need, I am artistic, I need to finish my thought, but thankfully this connects to the previous discussion. So, uh, if you talk about we should air that video or not. One, he's the person. In that video. Dr. Martin. Yeah. I don't, didn't want to say name anybody. It could be anybody in different context.
This has happened a bit a few months earlier too, when a guy had killed himself because of the fight with his wife. Yes, I remember that. So this is not a healthy mind you're looking at. Mm-hmm. This is a mind ruminating on its fantasies of [01:03:00] extremes. Mm-hmm. Fantasies of ending himself. There are delusions of grandeur in it also.
No. The question you ask is, should we air it Now? Generally, when this question is asked, I always fall because Indian State is very parental
and they don't trust people. I generally fall on the side that we should trust people. People are generally.
--: Same enough
Shardool : to worry about their own benefit.
--: Mm-hmm.
Shardool : And the rest of it is other people's business. But this is a very different thing because this is a terror module thing now. So I'm not sure we should air it or not.
But there is, there are two points to this one, and the one point which connects to the previous discussion is even if the armed conflict, you manage to eliminate it completely. Hmm. The fundamental issues, until they are addressed, the fight will continue in some really way. And it's the wisdom of those peop, the people who are fighting, is to manage their fight in a [01:04:00] way which they can sustain themselves and grow in a long way, which in my head right now is nonviolent, but.
This terror thing is another problem because you have sort of choked a community, and we have also done reports on this. Now there are ideological differences. Yes, there are some very extreme differences and minor sort of corollaries of these thoughts. But if you choke even the thought process, the, the civil discussion, which is called in common parlance or general discussion on ideas which may not be acceptable if everything is very neatly and strictly quaded off in society about discussion about what's happening to us, how we should govern ourself.
Now, center does not need to decide how district or mollah or a naum should be governed in Kashmir.
abhinandan: Mm-hmm.
Shardool : There are bigger things to do in life for, for a prime minister or for a union government. But because of re because after the removal of three 70, [01:05:00] everything is so strict and quaded off. There are outlets which you'll find thought it breeds up.
And other point is there is a disproportionate number of engineers, PCM, or science people in it. It's been seen, at least in Western Europe in who are influenced by extremism because they sort of learned through education, quote unquote education. The problem solving of their subject. It's a subject specific intelligence, but they don't learn.
What they don't learn about is like society and how social context
abhinandan: work of, of all the people. Even Elon Musk had said that he'd make history compulsory reading and not just science, because it gives you context. I was like, okay. Wow. Uh, Mr. Musk, but ri yours, yours. Video to see or not to see. To show. Or not to show.
But,
Shardool : uh, to finish my point, it, it should be shown. You may edit some parts which you think may be problematic for general public. Okay.
Jayashree: See, this is a [01:06:00] very good theoretical discussion to have if you're like a normal society where your television news is showing you normal things. I think one Indian state is too paternalistic as it is.
It loves to tell us what we must do and what we must not do, and how we must respect our elders and we must not do this and that. So that's one. Two also, I'm sorry, but given the level of rubbish that is. Passed off as news on a daily basis to say that, oh, this is inciting and this is hateful and this, it will have an alarming impact on the minds of all these hardworking people watching.
It is absurd. I think you place it in context, you wear it. Then by that logic, you shouldn't be selling half the books that are sold in India. You shouldn't be adding half the shows that we are seeing in India. You and Okay, in a theoretical discussion, I would say you cannot assume all people are stupid.
People are allowed to make up their minds on pieces of context, on content. But yes, you give the context as to what the video is and why it was made and then you air it. But none of this, I would say applies to Indian news, [01:07:00] so,
abhinandan: yeah. Right.
Sudipto Mondal : Well, as a reporter, my job is to put out the news, not law and order.
No. And I, I am committed to preserving law and order to the extent that I'll not put out lies, but if it's the truth and if the truth is threatening law and order, so then that's not my problem.
--: Hmm.
Sudipto Mondal : That's the state's problem. Right? Absolutely. Like that has been a principle in the best of times, in the worst of times, the state, the police, the ULA is responsible for ensuring that there's no stabbing on the street.
And that job is something that this person is always failing at doing. Okay. So, you know, taking that into consideration, I will ever, always, uh, around the side of some truths, which is, which you can establish, put it out, let the public deal with it. It came from the public,
Rahul Pandita : right? Rahul? A couple of things, uh, Abby, uh, you know, I was trying to draw a comparison between, uh, s video and the video of the Pulma suicide bomb.
Now, if you compare these two videos, [01:08:00] it's very clear that other DARS video is very performative. You know, uh, there's a flag behind him. Uh, he's wearing military fatigues, you know, black fatigues, uh. He has, uh, a rifle, hand grenades in front of him for effect. And he's speaking in a certain theatrical way, you know, and his video in many ways is meant to rattle the Indian state.
It's a press release. It's a press release of a certain sort. Hmm. You know, it is a presley's like, you know, I remember, uh, you know, bill Clinton had come to India in the year 2000, and there was this small left-leaning organizations from ur, which put out a Presley saying Bill Clinton.
So it's, you know, it's meant to be for, you know, but of course very dangerously [01:09:00] performative in that sense. But Nabis video, if you watch carefully, you know, it is in the first place. It looks as if you, you know, he's sitting in a. Philosophy podcast, uh, talking about metaphysics rather than martyrdom.
--: Mm-hmm.
Rahul Pandita : But there's a very, very layered meaning in the way he's speaking. You know, his video is crafted for those who might want to see themselves in him. It's an, it's an attempt to normalize his radicalization and to make it seem very rational and achievable. Hmm. That is where the danger of that video lies.
But having said that. I think all of us have a right to know what we are dealing with. Hmm. And censorship of this sort does not work at all. Uh, I know, uh, from anecdotal evidence that the video is [01:10:00] already circulating in WhatsApp groups in Kashmir and many other parts. You know, it's already been saved on many smartphones and it's making its routes.
So censorship in today's day and age doesn't work at all, and I think we should. It should be air to make people aware of what they're dealing with. Right. Especially, you know, terror, domestic terror models of this kind is nothing new. You know, we have had, uh, small units in people, you know, places like, uh, west Bengal, Burelli, uh, sour on the outskirts of Delhi, you know, ISIS model, small ISIS model.
Two people got together, tried to put together something with Matchbox, you know, blow themselves out, stuff like that. Mm-hmm. But this, this is, this is a, this is a danger of a, this is a danger of a different kind, especially when people involved have white collar jobs, like the doctor, you know, [01:11:00] doctors in Kash and, you know, and the rest of India also have a certain social currency.
--: Hmm.
Rahul Pandita : Other app, you know, gently if you say, okay, you know, he's a Kashmir Muslim, I will not give him. A room in Delhi, you know, it happens many times. Hmm. There's a, there's a bias against Muslims, especially Kashmiri Muslims. But then you look at, uh, I, I, I think one of the tenants made this point, uh, how sous made this point that, you know, he was a doctor, he looked like a doctor, he signed it, and he gave me advance.
So then there is this danger, you know, it's, it's, it's a danger that even, you know, this model that they're working like this and they've chosen this place really well. It is away from the glare of the heartland in Delhi, you know, the city in Delhi. But it's close enough for them to be able to reach Delhi in an hour's time.
So I think it's a, it's a, it's a danger, which we must take [01:12:00] very, very seriously. So,
abhinandan: okay, so just one, I mean, I still don't have a thought through position, although I loved, so the, those disarmingly simple. Logic of as journalist, what one's duties. And I kind of, I'm leaning that way. I'll probably think about it tonight before I sleep.
Um, uh, but just one thing that I found interesting where the surprise that educated people like doctors, et cetera, this surprise that, oh, this, see this is a new thing. And I saw how mainstream media covered it. To me, that is an acknowledgement that the likelihood of someone who's unemployed, uneducated, and poor to turn to violence is high, which means there's a logic to it.
I mean, either one should have equal surprise, whether completely disempowered person who has no prospects in life looks at turning to violence. Uh, and a doctor one measures it the same, but if one measures it [01:13:00] differently, I think that is an acknowledgement. Whether we put in those many words or not, that.
The failure of providing basic human decency and justice to people yes, will make them turn to violence is implicit in that surprise. And if it is implicit in that surprise, when someone turns around and says that, what do you expect if you don't give someone this? And then that shahi kapu dialogue from the war comes kbu.
I, I just, you cannot hold those two thoughts in your head consistently. So if you are surprised at this, then you should not be surprised at the most marginalized taking of violence. And if you're not surprised at this, then you can be equally surprised. So I find that interesting and I would like to have a longer discussion on that at some point.
But, uh, so to go ahead and I'll give Shadu the last word on this, unless, uh, say something No,
Sudipto Mondal : no, no. I, I was just saying that I am not surprised. And the educational profile of the militant, or in this case, whatever you might describe as militant term, [01:14:00] their educational profile there also back does not make a difference because.
Uh, we have been seeing people from all stratas of Cary Muslim society taking to arms. It is not from today. You know, we had, we have decades of history, the DKLF. From there, it starts something, something, something, you know, all of that history. There are, none of these people were quote unquote uneducated people far from that.
In fact, they were highly educated in terms of, you know, their political education was very, very, of a very high level, you know, and I have, uh, had the opportunity to go, go to Kashmir a few times, uh, you know, and do some basic journalistic groundwork. And the clarity, the political clarity I have seen among the common people of Kashmir.
I, well, I mean, it, it, it is a message to anybody. If anybody sitting outside and imagining what Kashmir is want, just need to go to Kashmir and just, you know, ask anybody on the street. So, and what the state has done also is [01:15:00] quite evident. So therefore, why are we surprised that an engineer becomes like this or a, you know, so what will not be surprised if a, a chikara isn't that called chikara those boats?
Yeah. Yeah. You know? Gotcha. Like, if a boatman becomes a militant, then it is ex, you know, expected and a engineer, all of Kashmir is suffering from this. And some of them choose to do this horrible thing, but then we have to see the root of this, you know? And,
abhinandan: uh, we have, I don't see the
Sudipto Mondal : kmi thing. Sorry to, I'm so sorry for go on.
Too many words, but then quick point. There is a difference, essential material difference between the Kashmiri struggle and what is happening in this buffer. Such where Yes. Region. Sure. And my critique is that the thing is that there were people from outside coming and leading this movement. You cannot say the same about the customer movement, even the absence of outsiders.
It has still. Uh, managed to sustain over these,
abhinandan: although at, although at its peak there were a lot of outsiders involved. Um, but yeah. Oh, of course. Oh, of course. The, uh, but Rahul, uh, on Kashmir and on this, I think you had something to say before I come to Shaul. Please go ahead. And of course, you've seen the worst and suffered firsthand.
Yes. Uh, [01:16:00] the violence, um, and the, when the Hindu community was pushed out of, uh, Kashmir. So, yeah. No, I mean, that,
Rahul Pandita : that part of course, I mean, but, but you know, a majority of militants who were from JK left. Or his mum, mu they were vagrants.
--: Mm.
Rahul Pandita : They were illiterate, you know, fake pass six, pass p plumbers, you know, Joe, you know, gun, you know, ly, he gets a gun and of course,
--: mm.
Rahul Pandita : Then, you know, he stays towards one way. There were a few di you know, idol ideologues here and there who are educated, but, you know, it's towards the, uh, towards the end of it. You know, we, we've, in the last few years especially, we've seen also, uh, educated, you know, university graduates, et cetera. Deviating, deviating towards it.
But what is, what is dangerous about this, in my view, is that it's not you, you know, this doctor who chose to take up this path has not chosen Kashmir as a turf, you know, now it, it has gone outside the [01:17:00] state.
--: Right.
Rahul Pandita : Uh, and it's, it's a multi, it's a multi-state issue now. Mm. You know, there's a, there's one base in sa po in.
They've gone and radicalized someone else in Saur who and who was ready for it. So that is what the intelligence agencies and security agencies are, uh, now worried about because it's not something which is restricted Kashmiri, it has gone out.
Shardool : Right. Shadu, look, I'll say just one thing. Well, educated, especially science team, individuals in terrorism are not new.
I, Iman Zawahiri was a medical graduate from Cairo and he remained the head of the terrorism in the world for a long time. So was O Laden electrical engineer, if I remember, or mechanical, I'm not sure. But yeah, so these people were educated. But you have to understand this skill-based education does not do anything for your sense of injustice.
If you feel it inside yourself,
abhinandan: yeah,
Shardool : that's a personal thing. And you only [01:18:00] deploy and use the means you have access to. If you feel that sense of injustice, the job of the state and the injustice we talk about is to not let that injustice breed to a level, which is why you have to give trust your people like hin.
abhinandan: Yeah. You can't corner someone, uh, to extent that the person has no options left. So, um, Josh, if you have anything to say, can I wind up? You don't end up. Okay. So just one quick thing before I ask our two guests for their recommendations. Uh, you know, I dunno if you guys, uh, remember, I, I know Rahul and I are around the same age, but, uh, the Punjab, you know, problem was, you know, we knew people, we were around then we saw coverage.
I personally knew of many [01:19:00] journalists who had gone there, uh, a couple who had actually met Binal, et cetera there. I remember there was a very, um, there was a change in the profile of the quote unquote terrorist from the early stage when there was a lot of Pakistan involvement from them being uneducated, et cetera, to later a lot of people of decent education.
Yes. If not taking up arms, they became sympathetic Yes. To violence against the state, even if they did not support. Binali, it was a very interesting profile of many people who I actually spoke to. They did not support Binali or the call for Stan because they wanted Punjabi as part of India, but they would not condemn violence against the state.
And that is because as military officers, as educated people, they had faced the, uh, the, the profiling of the turban and the, uh, humiliation of being set aside. And that was an interesting, I remember the first time I was really surprised, I was [01:20:00] talking to this guy who was a few years older than me and I, that was the first time I think I must have been in my teens.
Then I had never met someone who openly said that. You know, I don't find if you know the Stan bombing few people. And I was like, huh. Of course he's in Australia now. He had seen his relatives house being burned. Yes. One of his relatives. So he was very educated and he's doing very well now. Uh, he was a KH Sikh and, uh, he was, I have no future in this country.
I refuse to stay here. He was clear when he was 14. I am outta here. And he, he was not at all sympathetic to any violence against the state. So I, that progression also kind of happens. People who have something to live for if pushed far enough, we'll put that away. But, uh, can I wind up? Anyone has anything to say?
I have a small anecdote like this.
Shardool : Sorry, one sec. Rahul, you were saying something.
Rahul Pandita : No, no, we're good. Yeah.
Shardool : Like you, like I [01:21:00] come from an RSS family. I had a guy in my class, his name is still is Ing, and his family had seen that in Delhi. Mm. And we met in eight standard and when talking to him and his brother and we got into fights.
But you understand that their sense of injustice for their personal family was such, they did not mind Indian. And, and which is why
abhinandan: you can't judge how people react to personal kind of tragedies. But on that note, thank you so much, Rahul. Always a pleasure speaking to you. Very thought through calm analysis and well researched and well read and so to you too.
But before I let both of you go and we move on to the emails for the benefit of our listeners and viewers, can I please request you for a recommendation? It could be a book, article, film, anything that you think is time well spent. Uh, Raul, you wanna go first?
Rahul Pandita : I think now that Rito has mentioned K Bal, I, I urge everyone.
Especially journalism students and tech bro to read. [01:22:00] K He is readily available. He has done a series of articles for the Economic and Political Weekly. I think there have been a few anthologies around his writings. Uh, one great anthology I think is being brought out by naya. Please, uh, read through it, uh, to see how life, and, you know, the issues around it.
You are not necessarily black and white. We have to stop looking at things in black and white for God's sake. Uh, so that's a, that's an important recommendation. Uh, I think the other recommendation I would give, you know, you know, I've been, uh, uh, reading this wonderful, wonderful writer called, uh, guy Stack.
Um, uh, his pre, you know, he's come with a new book, but I was reading his previous book, uh, which came out in I think 2018. Uh, he's a young, uh, man, and he's suffering from, uh, not suffering. He has some, uh, fights with his own minds and decides to. Walk from Canterbury in England to Jerusalem, and this journey is fantastic.
It takes [01:23:00] him through ab, then goes to, uh, uh, you know, uh, to Istanbul, then to Lebanon, and finally to Jerusalem. I think a distance of about 5,000 kilometers, uh, in a period of about 10 months. Uh, tack, G-Y-S-T-A, double G, a wonderful, wonderful book. I highly recommend it.
abhinandan: Thank you, Rahul. And
Sudipto Mondal : yeah, so I was also, uh, going to recommend Bal uh, his selected works.
Uh, I mean the entire, his entire thing on fascism class cast. This whole, uh, body of work is very, very exciting for anybody who wants to understand. Uh, and I think this business of revolution, right? I suppose, you know, Raul talked about grades, and I suppose I have grade, you know, I have become very suspicious of revolutions.
I believe in, uh, incremental change. I believe in, you know, cycles. Of change as opposed to this treatment of, you know, one short revolution. Yeah, and I think, think, [01:24:00] uh, one of the people who talks about revolution these and their, uh, complication below, you know, while looking at them as some romantic because also, but then looking at their competitions is, uh, Marquez, uh, you know, and, uh, Gabrielle Garcia Marquez is a, is an interesting, uh, you know, person to read, to understand, you know, these dimensions of different dimensions of the revolutionary and revolution and all of that.
The South American, many South American writers I think have this. Kind of taunt towards revolution.
abhinandan: Right? Yeah. But thank you so much Rahul. Hope to see you some in the studio soon. Sometime I'll coordinate with you and your team. My pleasure, Harvey. Uh, thanks Suto. Have a good time. And Val, if you're in KTA for a bit, go have Martin K Siri, one of my favorite in the country.
Sudipto Mondal : I will for you. Okay. Thank you.
abhinandan: Thanks man. Thank you guys. Have a good [01:25:00] weekend. Bye-bye.
Jayashree: Bye-bye.
abhinandan: Alright. Alright. Alright, bye. Uh, now for our feedback from our subscribers. Uh, we only entertain. The feedback from subscribers. You can mail us@podcastsatnews.com, at repeat podcasts@news.com, or click on the link in the show notes below. Uh, please keep your feedback less than one 50 words.
Uh, in the next couple of weeks we'll be having that special where we read all the feedback left over about 40, 50 emails that are still pending. But today's emails have been curated by ul and if UL's Throat is acting up, um, maybe just you can do that. No, I'm happy to read you. Okay. Okay, fine. Alright.
Shardool : Alright. So the first letter is from Anonymous and they write Hello. I am writing to give my honest feedback for last Htan Churchill. As a regular listener of both podcasts, it was disappointing to see it dedicated to just Piha elections and everything looked very rushed and incomplete because results were not out yet.
It looked more [01:26:00] like. Breaking news show. We expect in-depth analysis of issues in Hafan. Chacha, dedicating whole podcast to incomplete results of Bihar elections. Compromise the quality of them. Also YouTube live compromise the audio quality of both podcasts. It is just an honest feedback from my side.
Keep up the good work. Thank you
abhinandan: Noam. Uh, thanks for your support. Appreciate this is something that even I grapple with. I actually leave it to the editors to decide. Um, but. I also get the logic that when such a big election result is happening and we, what will we discuss that day? I dunno. Jess, you have any view on this?
I mean, can we completely go off?
Jayashree: Yeah, I mean, I think it was also a thing that we were trying, right? We haven't done a hafta live during results day in a very, very long time. Usually we do a separate live that happens on YouTube. Since it coincided, I think we just thought we'd try it and see how it goes, but also point taken that maybe it wasn't lending itself to the best kind of half the episode that it might have.
Shardool : So [01:27:00] I was part of Chacha discussion, and yes, it was less of a podcast and more of a live discussion on the ongoing counting as results were coming in and more and more detail. The primary reason I think was because it coincided, like Ja Joshua said it. The results were coming out on Friday. And on Friday we record
abhinandan: also.
I mean, at least back when I was used to be a journalist, a reporter in the nineties, uh, one of the things that I, we were taught is not just why you covering the story. Is you have to be able to answer two questions, why and why now?
--: Yeah.
abhinandan: And on the why now is a more difficult question to answer. Uh, so if we were to discuss, let's say, something that we could discuss three weeks later, um, and we were discussing on the day of Bihar election, I find it really a little harder to answer.
Okay, you're discussing this, why now on the day when Bihar is happening? So I, I don't know.
Shardool : Yeah. Be because the new psych, like elections of any state, [01:28:00] but especially big states, they also pertain to lives of millions and millions of people. Sure. So, yeah. And it's also tons of democracy, all that analogy.
The next letter is from DRD, very short grip, 36 word letter question. Women voters are being projected as the force behind Bjps electoral success, Behar, Maha, et cetera. Is it just the cash transfers to women, or does it say more about how women are shaping politics at the moment? Both, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Both. It, it says both. Yeah. But it is a bad practice. Direct cash transfers a bad practice. But anyway.
Jayashree: No, but I think the, the cash transfer is just this very strategic thing for a party to do just before an election. Yeah. Because it's just, you easily get the vote rather than the boredom of having to actually Yeah.
Put in place policies and strategies over five years system so
Shardool : that you don't have to do cash. Yes. Right. Yeah. The next.
Next letter is from He has changed. The[01:29:00]
so HA is sung, only when male child is born. The word Ana in the second line is used for male children only. I think he's talking about the recommendation of Anan Anan. I don't know why Ramer will recommend a pure propaganda series on V. Like what I can learn from this other than know how great ambanis are, what will be Nisha's legacy.
I think history will judge him way harsher than present. He's praised today because he's winning, but he's enabler of this death of democracy and democratic system in India after 2024 elections. He had chance to fix this, but he timidly chose, I think he means 2014. Anyway, chose easier path. A person who has been CM for 20 years couldn't have courage to take on the communal forces.
That will be his legacy. He could have been great, but he will be counted as timid opportunist, where Lalo, even for losing elections after elections, will always be remembered for stopping Atani.
abhinandan: I tend to agree with this. I think, um, [01:30:00] yeah, Neth will be judged very hard. Yeah. Harshly as a historical figure.
I mean, he'd be seen as the, you know, real slimy chap who, who would like weasel his way into like any situation to get benefit from
Shardool : it. Yeah.
Jayashree: Yeah. I mean, I think his legacy is that he just wanted to be chief minister and he would do anything that he, and we take any decision towards the end of, I will be chief minister, not towards the end of anything else.
And yes, all politicians do this for the same reasons, except some do not do it as obviously and as consistently as Kumar has done. So
Shardool : his legacy will be more in iram ga iram category. Mm. The next letter is from Rajari Bala Krishnan. Hello team. An ELTA lie was a nice surprise, although the topic of the lie was not given the amount of stories NL and other independent media has done on SIR and voter suppression, I was surprised that there was no mention of the impact of SIR on the election results.
Pro incumbency makes sense for JDU and nih, [01:31:00] but there was barely any discussion on how BJP out scored JD U2 hours of listening to the same old caste rule. Supreme analysis were depressing. Will our nation ever break out of the caste system? It just seems like a hopeless situation. PS missed Lebanon then going on rant this episode.
I always agree, RI
Jayashree: that your cue.
Shardool : Let's take it away.
abhinandan: Thank you, RI But I think when we are discussing election analysis and yeah, it's like I tend to.
Shardool : Yeah. Yeah. The next letter is from vna, AKA writes You, your guest really outdid herself. Oh, I love this letter. All this be hard date of birth. Charming, truly. And your little nod of agreement. Chef's case, she couldn't even pronounce the name of my state, but sure, let's all share a laugh. As a brown person, I've had my fair share of [01:32:00] discrimination abroad, but honestly, my own country trained me well.
After years of internalized mockery and regional sneering, the racism outside just feels familiar. So when a fam million. Malali or Panu gets their first taste of their foreign discrimination. All I can do is smile. Riley, welcome to the Brown Club of India. Folks, we've been serving this dish hot at home for decades.
Have a wonderful weekend,
abhinandan: Vaka apologies. Point taken. Point taken. I mean, although I, you know, my view on sensitivity on pronunciation, not pronunciation, on Indian commentary on other Indian communities. I am half Tamil. I'm half Punjabi. I find my Tamil side takes objection to things which are.
Oversensitive, especially because my thumb side is an I side. So you have not faced any such [01:33:00] major, you know, it's not like, you know, you have been on the receiving end of, so they have enough to hate about Punjabis and Jarts. I was in du there was people, the Harrys were, yes, not, it was not a complimentary term.
Gotcha. Um, in eu, the eighties and nineties. And, um, nor was these juts, these jut types. The Harrys are more sensitive about it than the juts. Mm. I mean, I, there may be some power dynamic, which is why, but I, I, I guess there's certain stereotypes which are not fair, but are unacceptable. Like, for example, if you were to say that Indians are generally dirty, it's a lousy thing to say, but if you go abroad, you can't really.
Disprove that
Shardool : I hygienic. Yes, yes. From
abhinandan: from when you go to an Indian neighborhood as opposed to another neighborhood.
Shardool : You haven't met me yet,
abhinandan: so, so I'm just, [01:34:00] yeah. But yeah, your point taken. Everyone said, I mean, you have you on this, Jesse, your chamilian.
Jayashree: Yeah, my thumb side takes great offense to your thumb side, but it's okay.
We lit. Yeah, I mean there are a lot of horrible things that I think very correctly we should be calling out. And also I think you should look at the question of whether you're punching up and punching down depending on who the person is. But
abhinandan: I think the point she's making is that they said that basically these behar date of births meant that if.
In Bihar, you cannot believe any date of birth because it, everyone's a i of that, that everyone has a fake birth certificate. I think that is the basic point she's making.
Shardool : Yeah, that, that's a large,
abhinandan: yeah. The pronunciation was just a ma side note, but yeah,
Shardool : nearly like 132 million people. Anyway, next letter is from Ramen.
Oh, is it Ramen?
Jayashree: Haha.
Shardool : Hey Ramen. Sir, why is he sending letters at subscriber anyway? Ram. See,
Jayashree: because of Ramen, sir, my parents live just right near a street, which is called Ramen Street, and I have grown up on that street and I've been calling it Ramen Street for like 30 years. And because of Ramen sir, [01:35:00] I now look at it and saying, ah, yes, they're on Ramen Street, but they are not.
So Right.
Shardool : There is a Korean reason for this because Ramen is now our Ian. Right. Oh, cool. Anyway. Hafta 562, I found Manisha's stake on hedge bomb to be too kind on the ECI, the theory of quote unquote, stock images for missing epic photos was difficult to buy. Remember the P in the EPIC stands for photo? Mm.
Can an electoral role be finalized without an authentic photo? There are overwhelming red flags in this matter. The hurried Rule tweak to hide CCTV footage. The C Chal Mayor Poll where Anil Masi was caught on video defacing ballots and the tweak in the rules to select the ecs. Dismissing these allegations as glitches is being unduly kind to the ECI and expecting them to provide convincing reasons as to what is actually happening is naive.
On the other hand, Jeri's stake was much more balanced. It is now up to the journalist. To take it up, keep up the good work.
abhinandan: Thank you so much. Um, but yeah, this whole thing is, [01:36:00] it's, I mean, to decode it and to conclusively say what impact it has is, I mean, I don't even know what methodology one would follow, but yeah, it's a challenge ram and I agree with you, but I net net macro picture, like I said, it's not a level playing field.
So if you gotta beat the VJP, you have to pull off like a, a miracle, like a couple they did in 1983. It's, it's like that. So yeah,
Shardool : as far as I remember, all the Manisha can is very well equipped to defend herself, but I think she, what she was saying is this, the magnitude of this win cannot only be attributed to SIR because at best, even if you agree all the ma bad cases, which happened, the names deleted that only count.
So we wind up 2.3%, but
abhinandan: first we'll get the recommendations of the rest of the panel. Uh, so suggest you wanna go first.
Jayashree: Yes. Three superb recommendations for the week. So there was this great story in Mumbai Mirror about something that I often worry, I often wonder about this. It's all these [01:37:00] experts who are wheeled in to talk about government mega projects that cost crows.
They'll sound gray on paper, but they're actually like intensely rubbish when it comes to, yeah, actual improvement of infrastructure and livelihoods. But there will always be an expert floating around who will have some study and they'll tell you why. You absolutely must be ecstatic that your government is spending thousands of crows on this.
So it's a short opinion piece on who these hard-nosed experts are, where they're probably coming from, and why you should not take what they say seriously. So that's one. Number two is this really fun story that was in the News Minute actually on Hokes bomb calls and how they're wearing out the police across states.
And the thing is, they've also, um, profiled various people who have been arrested for these hoax bomb calls. For example, there's one woman in Chennai who, and we were talking about. What backgrounds people come from. So she's like an aerospace engineer or something, and she was arrested by the Amba police for placing a hoax call, but by the time they arrested her, she'd already placed over 20 hoax calls across 12 cities.
Oh my [01:38:00] God. Wow. So it's just interesting to sort of see the kinds of people who are behind this and like also how the cops have to deal with it. And finally, I am recommending a novel. Um, so if you ever told me, I read a book that is told from the point of view of a bird that becomes an internet influencer, I would say yeah, maybe, but also, I don't know.
That sounds weird, but I did read that book. I loved it. It's also about New Zealand, it's about the deep poverty of farmers and about social media culture and changing relationships. And also, yes, it is about a bird that becomes a social media influencer, but it is great. So it's called the Ax Man's Carnival.
It's by Catherine Chike. So yeah, my
Shardool : thank you. So mine also three recommendations. The first one is a re report by my colleague Pratik, but how Indian trains are running because I used to love riding on trains. Mm. I'm very autistic in this. All autistic people love riding on trains. Mm. So they are fucking up one of our favorite things in public life, so that The second is, I wanna [01:39:00] plug myself, because I've had to watch all these baba.
Bag for videos to write that piece. Oh my fucking God. And like the line of politicians there. So please read that. I had to suffer for three days for that. And the last one is, it came up in my mind through a discussion, like a very good example of Manja Bala Matches.
abhinandan: Hmm.
Shardool : Matches is one movie which will tell you how these things, I mean it's made by Gul are, and if I could, I would recommend it song also, but I won't.
abhinandan: Okay. Well we were planning to start that system of democratizing the song choice. He can
Jayashree: do the song then for,
abhinandan: yeah, you can choose the song for, because we got a letter that every week I choose the song. So that should also be by turns. So you can choose the song today
Shardool : is, it's
abhinandan: a beautiful line to
understand
Shardool : what is happening.
So it'll be your song. Perfect. That is a timeless song. I hope you agree. Right.
abhinandan: So my recommendation, I have two this week. Uh, one is, uh, a colleague, summer Grover's. Peace, the unbearable [01:40:00] uselessness of India's environment Minister, uh, and do watch the video explainer. Share with as many people as you can if you can tag the minister.
Um, so the only time he makes news is not because someone is condoning a family bereavement, or he is talking about cop three. Maybe someone should corner him and ask him what the hell he's doing. And I've said this before, we keep blaming parties whether it is Punjab or Pradesh, BJP, Ariana, whoever may be in power up because five states there's crop burning happening.
It impacts all five states. There's vehicular pollution only the central government can do this, just like GST, which they made a hash off. Um, unless the center is involved in actually wanting to make everybody work together. We can keep blaming each other state. 'cause depending on which day some states the farm fire will be high.
Other states it'll be less. And then next week it'll change VA pollution. Other measures the plants that are spewing smoke in the air [01:41:00] across these five states. But Mr. Environment Minister is quietly living in these four or five acre houses that are refund for him Bji and doing jack squat. So congratulations, uh, Mr.
Bje. You are truly an inspiration to those who wanna do nothing in life. And the second is a very interesting, uh, it's actually Economics podcast, but it explores many aspects. It's a new experiment in remote work from the inside. It is how prisoners, uh, are being given jobs inside. Prison so they can work from home.
It's tech and they're earning serious money. Way more than you and I are earning Al by the way. And it makes you think about, 'cause at least two of these guys are serving, you know, one of them is a girl, lady actually are serving time for like really violent crimes, like cutting someone with a machete, machete, machete.
And [01:42:00] one of those people was a child. But when he's being interviewed, he sounds reasonable, rational. Yes, he, they haven't interviewed him. They have interviewed his warden. But the other two people are also accused of violent crimes, including murder, to give them this chance. Uh, the, the, the, the guy who's a correction facility point of view, the economic aspect that this actually incentivizes, uh, the police authorities or the prison authorities not to give them parole.
Yeah. Because a part of that earning actually is kept by the Yeah,
Shardool : yeah.
abhinandan: Prison
Shardool : kept, in fact, what is called generally more amount is taxed than it would've been taxed outside. So,
abhinandan: but it's really interesting and I was just thinking that, again, America surprises you. It brings out the worst in things. It brings out some very interesting experiments.
So yeah, it made me think at various levels from the economic point of view, from the social point of view, from the, you know, how would, uh, victim's family take Yeah, this. Chance [01:43:00] anyway, so very interesting. With that, we must thank our subscribers. There's a QR code, again, 26% drop because Sarkar has given a 26% raise for print ads.
We are giving a 26% drop discount. Scan the QR code, click on the link. Please share this with their friends, family. Those who think journalism that is independent of large corporate and government interference and influence should be supported. We'd like to thank, uh, wonderful sound recorders, Anil and our wonderful two producers, a and a that is am Ashish, and, uh, which one
Jayashree: is awful and which one is awesome.
That's the
abhinandan: question. That's the question.
Shardool : And
abhinandan: Du and Ri.
Jayashree: Thank you.
abhinandan: Bye-bye. We meet you with this song, which is ARD Pick for the week. Bye-bye. Have a good weekend.[01:44:00]
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