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Manisha: [00:00:00] This is a News Laundry Podcast and you're listening to NL

Hafta. Welcome to the 501st episode of NL Hafta. Last week we had our special 500th episode. And we have 30 emails today. So there's going to be a lot of time spent in responding to your feedback, inputs, critique, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we only have an in house panel today.

And when I say in house, you may be wondering who is this young lady? And she's not in house cause you've never seen her before. Well, she is in house because she's a subscriber. And her name is Kawal. You can also call her PD, which is Phalana Dimkana. Which is the name of her art house. Phalana will be like Phantom wala Professor.

Phalana Dimkana means Phantom. Should it be spelled with a [00:01:00] PH or an F?

Raman: PH. F. F. F. F. F. F. F.

F. F. F. What the f k is y

Kamal from Phalanadimkhana here. Well, she's a subscriber. And in the past, you may have seen this thing that I have. We've put on a social media post. Here it is, which is a gift she gave. She does thread art. And when she wrote to us saying that I'm in Delhi and I have created some more thread art, which I want to give when you guys won the Ramnath Gagan Award.

I was like, why don't you come when we're recording Hafta and hand it to us then? And Kamal was nice enough to come. So, Kamal, before we introduce the rest of the panel, Kamal, in house team, because subscriber and subscribers are in house, you're ghar ki baat. So, thank you. Now I shall unwrap it and see what it is.

It's, I'm guessing, um A string art, yes. A string art. And this also you've made or this is No. Okay, you only do string art, not [00:02:00] actual, um, painting. No, I don't paint. So, DNews laundry team, thank you for doing what you do for putting up with the Aafat in Sahafat. Because till the time you are doing work with impact, there will be Ramnath Givankas and there will be tax notices as well.

Both are signs that you are doing great work. To many more awards and accolades. More power to you. A grateful citizen Kamal. Come on. Thank you. How sweet is that?

Manisha: Sahafat is journalism.

Sahafat is journalism in Urdu. So I'm doing a new series of Urdu words because I really like how the lippi is, the written form of Urdu is.

I mean, you really don't need to paint or sketch, you can just write Urdu words. So this is a part of that. But it's a commonly

Manisha: used word, like, we can say. Sahafat not as

much, I mean, unless, you know, Now, how many people speak Urdu, pure

Manisha: Urdu? And those who do speak, I wonder if this is Sahafat. Actually,

earlier, journalism was only called Aafat.

Then it started happening in the right way. [00:03:00] Then there's a let's call it sahafat. Oh my god. This is stunningly beautiful. Yeah, this is so nice Hey guys This is what it looks like everybody And a lovely time to receive this also because today well the ramnath givanka award Uh, just yesterday, uh, wonderful colleague Tanishka won the LADLI award.

Manisha: Oh wow.

For what Manisha?

Manisha: She won an award for a story she had done on how single women, especially unmarried women, are denied key, uh, ultrasound facilities because you're not pregnant. married, so you're not supposed

to be, whatever,

Manisha: having an active sex life. So sometimes very important procedures that require an ultrasound are denied by medical professionals.

So it's a story about that. Very well done, very deeply researched.

Manisha: Kamal,

now that you have given us this wonderful string art of [00:04:00] Sahafat, uh, Falana Dimkana, It's a philanthropic kind of creation, it says. Will you also be sharing your inputs on various issues you'll be discussing? I will try to give my two cents.

Uh, not as informed or articulate as you guys are, but I will try and give my two cents. At least there's one misguided soul who thinks. Not accuse us

Manisha: of such lofty things. You can't accuse me

of being informed. Uh, you can accuse Anand of being informed, but as the males will probably demonstrate. Anand is

Manisha: mostly getting accused for just looking, just very disinterested.

You have to start looking very interested because there are so many comments.

Ki Anand sir ko kya ho gaya?

Manisha: So

basically they

Manisha: bought Kire.

Then you should sit this, this should be a pose,

So, uh, the 500th episode of Hafta is still free, like we discussed. Um, you can send it to your friends and people who think would be interested. Uh, hafta is a gateway [00:05:00] product. A lot of people discover this because of Hafta and because of nuisance. So in the show notes, there's a form, there's a link in that form.

When you press that link in lo a form, the link says Share hafta 500. Please share that with others. So people get to know us and many more very talented artistic people like Kamal discover us and then gift us fancy artworks. That's the plan. And the Sena project with the Srinivasan Jain going is still not full.

We are still, I think about three and a half lakh rupees short. Uh, you can just flash this QR code or you can click in the show notes. But we would appreciate if you can top this up so we can make sure that we get everything that we need over there for our crew so that they can do some international ground reports and come back.

The idea is, and there is, in fact, let me address that right at the beginning. So I will just address this, um, right at the outset, although we have all the emails that we'll be talking about today. Hello NL team, I'm a [00:06:00] subscriber and wanted to understand the rationale behind doing the Gaza report. Well not report, it's going to be a bunch of reports.

Uh, this is from Manali. Uh, kindly excuse me if I might have missed this reasoning in one of the podcasts or if I'm overstepping a subscriber. You're not overstepping a subscriber, you're never overstepping. You're most welcome to give us gifts or bouquets or brick paths. I understand the grim situation on ground, uh, in Gaza and admire the work of journalist Srinivasan Jain looking at extensive reporting in international media and general appetite of the NL audience.

I fail to understand what new information we will find out through this report. 18 lakhs is a huge sum and I think it could have been used to do more domestic reports. Request you shed some light on the approach and outcome here. So Manali, you're right. In fact, this discussion happened even within that, you know, do we need to, um, do reports from overseas?

Just like, you know, we are contemplating that we should also cover the US election from an Indian point of view. And then the thing was that There'll be enough US election coverage across international channels and websites and [00:07:00] sources. Uh, but the reasoning was that, I mean, I think, and you can tell me, you know, and of course we will learn as we go along, if it like doesn't work out really well, we probably abandon this.

Uh, I think we should do something international maybe once a year on significant news events, uh, because, uh, news laundry, as you know, does get quoted extensively now, quite frequently. Uh, in publications of repute internationally. Uh, while I get that, by the way, we are working on something in the Northeast as well.

And I will tell you more about this in the weeks to come. Uh, but it's just that a significant high profile journalist considered, uh, covering a significant high profile event is. Good to get like a larger audience, a larger image, more discoverability, and then people can discover other more localized content.

So it's, in that point of view, position, brand positioning bias is, you know, what we thought could work. That is the reasoning behind it. [00:08:00] But your point has actually, was, you know, taken up already over here. High profile journalist doing a high profile international event in a responsible, good journalistic way may get us more, um, discoverability and serious as a serious news platform.

What do you think?

Manisha: Yeah, I think the two things we thought of one was that, uh, the fact that we haven't seen, there's been a lot of good articles, of course, written on Israel, Gaza. We have a lot of experts in India, but we haven't seen very good video reporting from the area on our TV news, or even on our digital platforms.

Most of that has been foreign journalists reporting for foreign organizations. So we thought that's a gap that we can fill. And then Srinivasan Jain is someone who has traveled to Israel before. He's reported from there before. So he has a certain amount of experience there that he'd bring to the reports that he's So those were the two reasons.

But yes, of course, it's also new for us. So let's see how that works out.

Raman: Yeah, [00:09:00] I think I agree. Um, the credibility of, uh, Srinivasan Jain is something which made us think that we should go for this. I think that was the primarily the main reason. And yes, of course, we should do at least once in a year. So, uh, we should attempt, uh, if we have, uh, good reporters around.

So yes, we should.

Right. Um, so in the panel today, Anand Varadhan, Ravan Kripal, Manisha

Manisha: Pandey,

and Kamal from Phalana Demkana. And I'm Abhinandan Sekhri, uh, subscribe, pay to keep news free. We would like. First of all, thank you so much. You guys topped up the election fund.

Manisha: Yeah, within a week.

Within a week.

That's a record. That's amazing. That's fantastic. I was stunned. Who all are travelling? Manisha, Atul? Me, Atul, Basant and Anmol.

Raman: Not only travelling, we have extended our trip. Were you going

to Jammu and Kashmir?

Raman: Jammu

Manisha: and Kashmir and Haryana also.

Okay.

Manisha: And [00:10:00] Anmol and Basant.

So there's a lot of people traveling.

You'll get a lot of reports, hopefully. And then we will have another Sena up for the Maharashtra election. If they had just bunged the election together, we could just have one Sena, but. That's where we are now. Uh, but yeah, do pay to keep news free because when the public pays, the public is served so that we can do more sahafat and less sharaarat and more such uncle jokes to come.

Uh, let's go with the headlines first.

Manisha: We've had a spate of headlines, uh, involving cow vigilantes this week. One is this case of a class 12 student who was identified as Aryan Mishra. He was chased in a car and then killed by men who apparently mistook him for a cattle smuggler in Haryana's Faridabad district.

In the state's Charkhi Dadri district, five people beat up a migrant worker to death after claiming that he had consumed beef. While in my home state of Uttarakhand, people are still going crazy. [00:11:00] Shops of Muslims were vandalized after a Muslim man was found to be involved in a crime against a 14 year old girl.

The allegation was that he, he had molested the girl. And after that, there were these revenge attacks on Muslim shopkeepers. And then in another incident, an elderly man was assaulted and abused by some co passengers on train in Maharashtra. Their beef was that he was carrying buff with him.

Manisha: was taking it to his daughter's place.

We have a very good piece on it by Pratik. Yes. And

Raman: the first story also we're chasing

and, and, and even the police, after the video came up, they did not take Sumo to cognizance and there was a lot of pressure that was built online only then did they act.

Raman: See the new law has defined lynching. Uh, so, so they did not apply that law, uh, in this case.

And, uh, in the first case, I want to say that the story is still developing. We don't know whether it was a mistaken identity. Uh, because the person, there were five persons in the [00:12:00] car. Mostly the Goa Rakshaks, when they get an information, they chase, uh, you know, the vehicles which are carrying cows. So here, this is a, this is a, This is a proper car SUV with the five persons were traveling and just one person was targeted.

So the other four were not touched. So why, why this person alone? So they are trying to find out. And, and the family, uh, whom this boy was traveling with, Is missing now. They are, they're not. Yes. So the story is still developing,

Manisha: but the guys who've been arrested so far, apparently the father says that they were very sad that they killed a Brahmin.

So we know he did think that he was killing a Muslim.

Raman: No, no, we, no, no, we, we know that somebody who had, uh, who had triggered, who had killed the boy. We know that person, but who gave him the information, the wrong information. Maybe they wanted to, or maybe, maybe he was hired as a killer and, and giving it, uh, you know, and [00:13:00] killing somebody in the alibi that this guy, uh, you know, was smuggling the cow.

So the story is still developing. We don't know exactly what the motive is.

In spite of all this lynching, the prime minister has not said anything yet. He has not made any statement that stop lynching. Take it easy. Because that would upset his core, his, his base. Uh, for a lot less, leaders of other countries do make a general statement for peace and harmony.

Whether they mean it or not is beside the point. Uh, you know, just like Mr. Yunus said that stop attacking minorities. I don't know whether he meant it or not. And of course, here, A lot of commenters getting very upset, but clearly they don't expect that from their own prime minister. The West Bengal Assembly unanimously passed the

Manisha: Aparajita Woman and Child Bill 2024.

It proposes death penalty for rape convicts. Meanwhile, the CBI has arrested four people, including the former principal of Kolkata's RGK medical college and hospital [00:14:00] Sandeep Ghosh in an alleged corruption case.

So just one quick thing, uh, since we have Uh, the head of the international court of justice, you get a new promotion each time with us.

It's too low. It's too low. Uh, every state can have its, prescribe its own punishment for a crime? Yes. Criminal law is a state subject. And now it's also, some part of it has been also concurrent nature. So the state government. Can, sorry. The central government, like BNS and the new codes that have come, they have come because of its concurrent nature, but the state government can have legislation, even the BNS and uh, this, uh, party N structure.

This, these can be modified to suit state, uh, legal needs. So just for the sake of argument, if. This case at some point, any case comes up to the Supreme Court, [00:15:00] the Supreme Court will rule as per the state the crime was committed in. Local laws, but if there is a special law, the special law will take precedence, uh, but like, uh, in this, uh, bulldozer case, now the Supreme Court general observation is that it's illegal, but, uh, how the state police justifies it is because In some municipal laws, there, there are clauses that because of encroachment or illegal occupation, it can be raised, the building can be raised.

So whenever there is an accused, they sometimes, the dishonest thing that they do is that they backdate it. Right. So, uh, one way out is digitization of that. That would check, uh, backdating. Right.

Manisha: The Congress has accused [00:16:00] SEBI chairperson Madhvi Book, still controversy on how to pronounce

it. Book or Buch.

Manisha: Sohail Seth says

Book. Buch. Then don't get your training from Sohail Seth. Book is Punjabi, right?

Manisha: I don't

know.

Manisha: Anyway, the accusation is that she's held an office of profit at ICICI Bank and received an income of 16 crore after she became a whole time member of SEBI in 2017. ICICI Bank has stated that it has not paid its salary or granted ESOP benefits to Book.

After she retired from the company in 2013.

From what one sees it, she, I mean, she could exercise her right for the chairs at any time. So at least from what I see. I mean, there is no violation there, but as SEBI chairperson, for her to be holding those shares, there's a conflict of interest there. She should have declared that.

I mean, no matter how you look at it, she doesn't come out looking pretty.

So we had 500 people to begin with. Oh, they have. There [00:17:00] is a huge

Manisha: Something that suddenly there's complaints about her toxic behavior also. Toxic behavior also. The Supreme Court granted bail to Delhi Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal's aide, Bhimav Kumar. This is in a case pertaining to the alleged assault of MP Swati

Maliwal.

Court

Manisha: has also granted bail to businessman and ARP's former communications in charge, Vijay Nair. I think

Raman: all the politicians who have been arrested should be allowed to go to Supreme Court for the bail, because the lower courts and high courts are not going to give any bail.

Manisha: Meanwhile, the ED has arrested AAP's Amanatullah Khan in connection with Manilal's case.

No, Manilal, and regarding Waqfland, and the day he was arrested was the day that those guys got bail. I was watching the channels. No channel was showing live that these guys have got bail and not just they've got bail, that what the court said, they were showing Amarudula Khan arrested in Waqf scam, as if everyone should know what the Waqf scam is, as if it exists.

So I was like, what is the Waqf scam? Like, and [00:18:00] wall to wall, it was coming, arrested in Waqf, Waqf. What is the scam? Do you guys know what the scam is? No one's explaining. Dude, the headline management of this government, although it's much weaker today.

Raman: And Vakf also is playing for the past four years. Not, not, not today.

Huh?

Raman: Huh? I mean, four, five years ago when he was elected, even then. They were talking about work.

Manisha: Two people were killed and several others were injured in two separate attacks this week by suspected cookie militants and manipur in file District West District Parisa said the militants were using high-tech drones to deploy explosives against security forces and civilians.

Quite a development and manipur two in sergeant groups in URA have agreed to give up arms and join the mainstream in a peace agreement. Signed with the center and the state government with the signing of this agreement. Tripa is left with no insurgent group after many decades. So I guess they were more or less defunct.

I've never heard of militancy. So I was

reading up about the groups, um, basically

Manisha: liberation front and all Tripura Tiger force.

[00:19:00] Yeah. And, uh, they basically, at least one of them, maybe both of them are the same demand that they wanted to free Tripura from the The Union of India. So I guess it was a secessionist operation.

Anybody who had moved there after, I think, 1956, or what was the date here that they put, would be deported, which means that they didn't belong there, and only tribals. They said Tripura only belongs to tribals, so only tribal people should be. So that was basically what the demand was, and it is historic that they have said, okay.

Our demands are over and this is, so now Tirupur has no secessionist operation.

Manisha: The Supreme Court has set up a high powered committee to resolve the grievances of farmers protesting at the Shambhu border between Punjab and Haryana. Committee will be headed by Justice Nawab Singh, former judge of Punjab and Haryana High Court, and meanwhile we spotted wrestlers.

Vinesh Fogart and Bajrang

Hafta song: Kunia at

Manisha: the border also, but also quoting Rahul Gandhi and there's a lot of speculation whether they'll be fighting elections or not. Prime Minister [00:20:00] Narendra Modi has apologized for the collapsing of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj statue and the sculptor has been arrested. Even though we know that he was very pained that he was forced to make this statue.

Yeah. What is that about? That was his side of the story. That this is supposed to be made in seven years.

Raman: Three years

Manisha: and I was rushed through it. First of all,

Raman: he's a very well known sculptor. He has done, you know, he has been called to London to do some works and which he has done. In this particular case, the government, uh, maybe the Navy, uh, who had, uh, you know, given this work.

So they wanted it very fast because they wanted Prime Minister to inaugurate it for I don't know what. We need to see, I mean, when it was inaugurated, there must be some political activity around it. So, the sculptor, I think at that time, um, our reporter from Pune, Prateek, was telling that two, three things he said.

One is that he had said it even then, [00:21:00] that they are asking me to do something in three months.

Manisha: Which requires

Raman: three years. So, uh, which he said on some, television show, Marathi television show. And apparently he was not even he hasn't even been paid for it.

Hafta song: Wow.

Raman: And the third is PWD, I think had written to, uh, uh, you know, Navy that, uh, get is paid for it.

Uh, you know, screws are getting rusted of the, of the sculpture. So, so I don't know.

This is really like a, for those bad dog comedies.

Raman: But, it has taken a political turn now.

Yeah, of course. Now, NCP. etc. And he's apologized, PM who doesn't apologize for anything. Yes. I apologize for this. Yes, we have an artist here.

How long did this take you? Saha? Uh, so, you know, a piece like this, I mean, the conceptualization takes longer than actually making it. Okay. Uh, if you see I've, uh, the base is a new sprint. [00:22:00] Hmm. So that was thought of the text. I have put the red part as a magnifying glass because that's how. You guys look at the world.

Investigation. I broke the sahafat into words. So the conceptualization takes longer. I've been practicing this for about eight years now. So, Running this, actually, the actual making of it, maybe a day or two, that's about it. And have you ever hammered your thumb instead of the nail? Uh, my nails, yes, but still have ten fingers, all intact, so yeah.

But my nail, yes, I've hurt a few times. And I was just thinking, as you were saying, I mean, if tomorrow somebody comes and they're like, you know, the nails are rusted and the nail fell and it hurt my kid or something happened, are they also going to arrest me for that? It's ridiculous, I mean. You never know.

Manisha: The Haryana assembly election date has been changed from October 1 to October 5th the festival of the Bishnoi community.

Well, so that means for three days, three days between counting and announcement, right?

Raman: Yeah, 8th.

Manisha: This is

something I have a problem with. No,

Manisha: [00:23:00] no, no. When is the counting? Counting will be on

8th.

Oh, I see. Okay. So there's still three days between. And this is, they, they should announce it tomorrow. When polling gets over in four hours, the results should be

Manisha: out. Again, exit poll, they're going to have a field

day. It's because this is actually really detrimental. Three days between, you've got all the machines, you've got the technology.

Raman: No, but they give these days in case, uh, you know, they cancel some, some booths so they can have that election next time. So that is why a day is given. That is the reason.

Manisha: The Supreme Court took strong exception to Uttarakhand Chief Minister Pushkar Singh Dhami's decision to appoint IFS Officer Rahul as Field Director of the Rajaji Tiger Reserve after overruling objections from Principal, Secretary and the Forest Minister.

We are not in a feudal era.

In fact, but before the order came, he had already canceled that appointment. I think they were,

Raman: they were foreseeing this

order. I think they said it was going to be a class. Today's paper says they had, before [00:24:00] the order came, they had already cancelled that.

Raman: But first, first, when Express did this story, Uh, next day there was a denial from the government where the forest minister said, you know, he wasn't pressurized, uh, by the CM while having, uh, uh, so the experts did the third story, which, uh, and they, they gave, they showed that letter in which, uh, you know, the, this forest minister and the chief secretary, they had questioned his, uh, you know, uh, appointment and they had, uh, requested the CM to reconsider it.

So, so after the third story, they might have done it.

And basically the problem was that this bureaucrat has already come under cloud because under him some deforestation happened in Corbett.

Manisha: Meanwhile, more Supreme Court headlines, they've come down heavily on bulldozer injustice, as I like to call it.

Basically said that you can't just go around demolishing properties, even if the person is a convict. Or accused in crimes

and they're

Manisha: going to lay down pan [00:25:00] Indian guidelines to address the issue. It's really sad they took the court to do this. This is something that the media sort of raised. But the media was celebrating this.

The

media was riding the

Raman: bulldozers. I think the court should have intervened earlier. This is the delayed justice.

Manisha: Meanwhile, Netflix series IC 814, The Kandahar Hijackers, has been in the news for insulting Hindus. We can discuss that a bit. But Netflix content chief was summoned by the INB ministry to explain why codenames of the hijackers were used.

We can discuss this a little bit if you want. But yeah, needless controversy. Meanwhile, Kangana Ranaut's film has been postponed.

That was supposed to be

Manisha: releasing this week, right?

Yeah, tomorrow, Friday. We are recording this on Thursday at 3.

Manisha: It's going to be released next week or we don't know, but

it's not releasing as scheduled on the 6th.

Manisha: Very, very sad for Kangana Ranaut. A. G. Noorani, former Supreme Court lawyer and constitutional expert passed away this week in Mumbai. He was 93.

Raman: He was the columnist also, I think.

Yeah, he used to write. [00:26:00] Right. So, um, yeah, that is the headlines. I repeat, way to keep news free. Please click on the link in the show notes or go on to newslaundry.

com. Uh, we will be dedicating most of this episode on the 30 emails that have come because we didn't read any emails last time. But for that, I want to discuss two things, which is the intersection of politics, entertainment, uh, and, you know, the, the courts, uh, this emergency being banned. I want from the panel, I have a few questions.

Manisha: Hasn't been banned. No, sorry.

Okay. I should, but, but Kangana would say banned.

Manisha: Congress has protested that we will ban it in

Telangana. SGPC had also wanted it banned or whatever it is, but it is, uh, and this IC, I haven't seen.

Manisha: Nefarious forces have delayed it. I

haven't seen IC. Have you guys ever seen this?

Manisha: I've seen four episodes.

Have you? I've also seen a bit

Manisha: of it. Yeah.

Okay. So two [00:27:00] things. One is, Um, this pushback that came after the online, I find this government so susceptible and receptive to online, um, you know, trolling that it is, I think that is where the numbers are coming down. I think they think the Twitter is the world.

Um, so one, what is wrong with it? What is the big deal, Manisha and Falana Dhimkana, you can tell us, uh, and, uh, should I call you Falana Dhimkana as your brand or Kamal? Propagates the brand, so I'm happy. Falana Dhimkana, that's how I'm being disrespected because I'll start getting trashed for being sexist, disrespectful, obnoxious.

Falana Dhimkana works. That's how people remember me. Because I'm all those things. Uh, yeah. So what's right and wrong? And as far as emergency is concerned, so let's do that first. Let me start from there. Why under this regime, their CBFC, their power, why is [00:28:00] emergency not getting released? What do you think?

She's their MP and poor thing, she can't even lash out. If it was Congress government, she would have said they KGA, whatever. I can't copy very well. She can't say that it's her own government and at the same time she can't keep quiet So she's saying vague things like it's a tragedy in this in this country how things work in this country It's become it hasn't been

Manisha: a gang is promoted only I think of Bharat are being

are being yeah It's studio.

So why are why is the BJP not allowing of him to? Come out, she's a sitting mp. And I mean, last week or maybe 10 days ago, she got a slap on the wrist for making a comment about the farmer's protest again. Right. And it was, you know, while she was promoting her film. So I think the government is just very scared of her key, or Jackie Patani

So let's just SN it and let's not let her promote this further. Uh, it might have a release, but. I think it'll be, you know, rather low profile. They don't want it to be in the headlines anymore. That's my take on it. They're just scared of what [00:29:00] Kangana Ranaut might just go and say again. I mean, her social media profile does have her looking like Indira Gandhi, a BJP MP.

That's the photograph she's put. What do you think? Why, why, why are they not helping? I mean, if they want to release it tomorrow. I think it would be far less trivial than we think. And, uh, some, Sub objections would be technical from one of the CVS, CVFS members, I think. And, uh, but it will be of the nature that would, um, Impede the release of film.

One thing, uh, you, uh, uh, one interesting thing that people often forget that, uh, in India, the restrictions on freedom of expression, uh, despite the restriction, the, um, a strength of the article [00:30:00] 19 is greater than even America because, because in America, under, uh, the Amendment one, you get freedom of expression, but then Supreme Court judgments on that have made it such a, it is such a wild field that anything means they have not defined on what grounds it would be curtailed.

In India, it is well defined that these are the eight conditions under which you will curtail. So, many, uh, scholars of cinematic freedom. press freedom. Uh, uh, recently I read a book. They, they are of the view that because of this technically mean it may not be in practice, but technically, if you go, if you go by the book to curtail freedom of expression in India, it's is far difficult than even in, uh, than what it is in America.

Good to know. Yeah. [00:31:00] What do you think, sir? I

Raman: think, uh, the BJP would have, uh, you know, released it if it was politically expedient. Uh, uh, I, because I had fleetingly, you know, heard her interview, uh, where, where she was praising Indira Gandhi. And so, so the anchor said, you are with BJP. So you are praising.

The Congress president, but she said, no, even many people in my party also

praise her. I used to feel that she was not the right leader. I used to discredit her a lot, in my mind. When I read about him extensively, I read a lot, I read a lot, so my whole image of him changed. Oh, so what is your opinion about Indira Ji now?

I think she tried. She really tried. Yeah, she really tried. I think she tried. But Emergency, Indira Gandhi, your party, they are very much Dude, now, now, now, now, are you going to take a narration? Are [00:32:00] you going to take a narration? What happened here? They too, Avinash Chandy, Durga, Indira, Indira, Indira, So, yeah, I

Raman: I think maybe, uh, when, when the two elections are around the corner and this, uh, you know, uh, this, this film is, uh, quite positive about Indira Gandhi or something, the authoritative figure or whatever. So, so maybe they don't want to, this to be released now, maybe later. So I think technical or non technical, if it, if it, it was going in favor of the BJP, they would

have released it.

They, they've released some film and all these file films, poor thing, after Vivek Agnihotra, the great cinematographer, the great cinematic genius, who probably cashed in with Kashmir files or whichever film of his did, after that there was, you know, some UP files and this files and the latest was Bengal files or about Mamata, two weeks ago, it came and went No one even did [00:33:00] virus, COVID files.

No one even noticed that film. We were just trying to cash in on that, but it didn't happen, but yeah. Okay. What do you think? I

Manisha: think that they're very worried that this movie will lead to a serious revival of the Congress. It's making Congress look bad. Too good because Raman's right, that actually in her interviews, she's, at least she seems like she's pretty much, she's been very fair to Indira Gandhi and she does say that she tried a lot.

She did a lot for the country. The people didn't regard her well. She gave everything. So it seems like she's probably done an honest job from her side and it makes Indira Gandhi look not very terrible. Probably even makes Congress look strong because of themes she's picking up, you know, partition of Pakistan, uh, standing up to America.

Hmm.

Manisha: Emergency, whatever. Shohzad is a

strong leader. Shohzad,

Manisha: so maybe it'll, it'll just backfire. So, I mean,

just for the audience, uh, they had gone to the Bombay High Court, uh, saying that the CBFC has actually granted the certificate [00:34:00] online, but it wasn't handed to them and unless it's handed to them, they cannot release the film.

And they claim that online, it had already been uploaded, so they've technically got it. So the CBFC should be directed to give them the certificate. The Bombay High Court declined. They said we are not going to direct anyone to do any such thing, which is when she kind of lost it. And she, she, it's not getting released.

I think two things. I think, um, you know, there are other people who step out of line. There was one case where that, uh, I think he was an MP. He was a sitting MP from Madhya Pradesh who the PM called because he didn't get a ticket. He had rebelled and on speaker, he recorded him, Modi talking to him. Do you remember last election?

Right,

Raman: right, right.

I forget what his name was.

Manisha: Pradesh. Was it Madhya Pradesh? Yeah, it was Himachal. Himachal. It was a him state. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he had, and the Modi's pleading with him or just reasoning with him that you are one of our own. Don't, uh, you know, whoever steps out of line, someone is sent to deal with them.

Well, [00:35:00] I think no one wants to be sent to deal with Kangana. Anyone who said, okay, I want a volunteer. Modi said, I want volunteers. Who's going to deal with Kangana? Everyone starts looking. So no one wants to deal with Kangana. I don't think anyone wants to be sitting opposite her and talking to her. So they have said, I'm not dealing with her.

So, something that could have been resolved by talking to her, saying don't give these interviews, show her in a bad light. They can't because no one's going to talk to her. So the best thing to do is no one talks to her. Don't interfere. Pretend she doesn't exist. Just keep a seat for her in the MP. That's it.

That, that is what my speculation is.

Manisha: But the film has to get released though. It'll get released

Raman: after the elections. It'll be

Manisha: so late after the

Raman: elections. They may. Oh, maybe. They may.

Poor Kangana. Kangana, I'm on your side. If you want to do an interview, yeah, if you want to do an interview due [00:36:00] to News Laundry, we'll be fair.

Yeah, because, see, no channel will have the guts to go against your party. We are the only ones. So, Kangana ji or your, if any of you know Kangana ji, please tag her and tell her we will do a fair interview and we'll upload it on an unedited. That is a guarantee we give. Now tell us about IC 814. What is, what is the big deal with the ladies who watch it?

Manisha: So I've just seen four episodes of it and the prime grouse is, the first one is that the movie uses code names of the two hijackers, Bhola and Shankar, and don't show their real names. So people will be misled into believing that Hindus hijacked the plane. Centuries later, you know, people will say Hindu ne, plane kaha hija kara.

The second is that it shows the Indian government and intelligence agency in a bad light and as bumbling idiots. And the third one is that basically that it's very pro ISI and, uh, It's a PR job for ISI. That's what we sang. We also [00:37:00] wrote. I watched the whole series. And, uh, as a journalist, firstly, my critique of the newsroom that they show, it's just pathetic.

It is such a caricature. There's this intense and you should know. I mean, there's so many journalists have covered that it's these two journalists. It has become so big. And those two journalists are like lone wolves. And they are, you know, fighting with each other. It's a very stupid TV versus print kind of banter happening.

And self righteous lone wolf. You know, the typical journalists that they show. I mean, portrayal of journalists is so terrible in most of these series. But they

are shown

Manisha: as these, you know, self righteous people who are taking on the world and whatever. So, it's really bad. So, now because that is bad. I didn't find the Sarkari Mulazim bit and the bureaucrats and the agencies, their behavior very jarring.

I didn't feel that this was, they're showing, they're particularly seen as really bumbling. It shows that they weren't really prepared and they didn't really know what had hit them. Which

is not. But

Manisha: it's not [00:38:00] caricaturized. But

that's not untrue either. Yeah.

Manisha: So, but because I can find so many flaws in something that I know very well, I'm sure the intelligence guys also feel like a lot of things are just exaggerations.

Like, there's a subplot about, you know, the agency's indulging in torture in Nepal to get, you know, information out on the hijackers, which apparently never happened at all. So that's one kind of fabrication. Uh, Josie, we were talking to him, but we don't

know that, right?

Manisha: Well, at least that's what Josie, who we were talking to before this had said that that plot never happened.

I mean, it's not been recorded, I guess. And the fact that within two days, the agencies pretty much knew what was happening. They weren't so they weren't. Unaware of the identity of the hijackers. Having said that, I don't think it's insulting. I mean, you have to be a real idiot to think the hijackers were induc because first episode it says they talk about ISI Pakistan, Mada Islamic fundamentalism.

They show you everything, so it's really spoon feeds you and tells you Ki Pakistan,

basically everything.

Manisha: Was he [00:39:00] wearing

that? A checker? This thing with surma and the eyes and all that? It wasn't so exactly.

Manisha: So it's very clear that they're Muslim. It's very clear that they're from Pakistan. And I didn't find the agencies portrayed as caricatures. I mean, I'm guessing they're exaggerations and inaccuracies. And someone in the know can actually tell us. Right wing really needs to know how to critique something because there's good critique that you can do here.

But you're critiquing it on something so stupid that it's bound to be That's why they're

not taken seriously.

Manisha: Why are you coming with this Amit Malviya? I mean, he's not even the right wing, he's the spokesperson of the BJP. He's the

head of the

Manisha: IT cell. Years later, generations will think that Hindus hijacked the place.

Are you mad?

But if you see the choice of chief ministers, you see the choice of the IT head. I think it is, it's like Trump will only nominate complete buffoons to positions because that they don't want to, [00:40:00] you know, kind of, uh, lose the buffoon, which is the big chunk of their base. Which is why, I mean, otherwise, yes, the, the random troll will, will be that guy.

But if your IT media head is that guy, then it's a problem.

Manisha: And there's this thing of humanizing the terrorists, but apparently, this is based on a book by the pilot. And a lot of the incidents on the plane, like fleeing Antakshari and all, happened.

So even on this, there's some hostages who've come out and said it's accurate.

Some people have come out and said it's not.

Manisha: One hostage is, did you see, I found that rather bizarre though. She's showing a shawl that one of the terrorists gifted her. She's like, yeh mene

Hafta song: unki

Manisha: autography thi. It's really, it's really funny.

Hafta song: But

Manisha: she's talking about the shawl and yeh burger ji ne mujhe.

Are you sure it wasn't a spoof you were watching?

Manisha: No, no, it was an Aaj Tak interview where this lady very lovingly shows her souvenirs [00:41:00] from the hijackings. Right,

okay.

Manisha: Which was really funny to watch. That is really

interesting. We should have a round table with the But, I just But the one thing, the one detail that Rajshri informed me on Awful and Awesome is that this pilot went to work four days later on his next flight.

I was like, must be a Gen X pilot, because if it was a Gen Z, he would have anxiety, had, Uh, had forget, forget a hijack had someone just said to the, to the pilot, he would have needed to take one week off to deal with the anxiety it's caused. And then another week to deal with the toxic environment of his anxiety, not being taken seriously.

Dude, four days later, he was flying, yeah? That's amazing. That's

Manisha: quite

amazing. What did you think of it? Uh, so, I didn't think they were portrayed as bumbling idiots. I mean, uh, it is a fact that these guys were, you know, entrapped. The hostages were entrapped for over seven nights. I mean, [00:42:00] so, of course, there was a delay.

Of course, uh, there was not, action was not implemented as quickly as it might have been. And they do show various facets of it. Uh, the other thing, I mean, humanizing terrorists, if you're spending time with somebody, however good, bad, evil they are for seven days, nobody is out and outright, you know, good or bad.

You will see ounces of humanity in the worst possible persons. Um, they will let down their guard at some point or the other. And, uh, like Manisha said, they were outrightly shown as Muslims. I mean, Bhola and Shankar Bularia, maybe.

Manisha: Yeah, it's not like they're. Hello, Bhola. Hello, Shankar. It's not like every five minutes.

Exactly,

exactly. They were addressing each other with their names, um, which were clearly Muslim. So, I, I think they're just picking up grouse for the heck of it. I mean, So there is one historical episode, which an accurate film can never been made in this country. I'm not gonna take specific names, but there was a delegation that had [00:43:00] gone to meet re mahar during the war 2 0 2 0 4, around then 2 0 4, uh, where there was, uh, the 'cause the pm, uh, was around at the time.

Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, they discussed deescalation of and war because. war had broken out. Uh, with Musharraf, there was 99 is when the, this thing happened, what do you call, uh, Kargil. After that, there was some, I forget what it was. And in that delegation, other than someone being from the prime minister's office and someone being from, uh, MEA and defense, there was one more person on that plane who had nothing to do with the government, but had something to do with a very prominent business house.

And so powerful is that business house that Indopark piece mattered to them because it mattered on big assets near the border that they had. So they were [00:44:00] also part of that, that an accurate film on that can never been made. You know what I'm talking about. And the person who went also, we know who that person was.

Manisha: Did you see the movie, the series?

Two episodes. So I didn't, I didn't go beyond that. So, uh, See, the director, uh, when he made article 15, he had the, um, had this problem of, uh, his, uh, identity of characters being critiqued because they're also his, uh, Saw perpetrators, uh, I think it was based on Bado incident.

And, uh, he saw, uh, he portrayed, portrayed, um, the pro, um, portrayed the perpetrators as upper caste, but they were BCS means in actual incident. So now a lot of, uh, uh, means, uh. Confusion [00:45:00] about caste politics in the Hindi heartland is a large patches of land. OBCs are pitted against the scheduled castes.

It's not always upper caste against schedule caste. So, uh, It had a political repercussion also, how you portrayed that. So that was critiqued at that time, if you remember Article 50. Yeah, of course I remember that. So, uh, here now the question whether, uh, what Mr. Malviya said that what would we consider history.

So, uh, we don't know. We have 20, 25 years, uh, the authors were very, uh, Say, pompous in saying that movies will not be taken as, uh, records of history, books will outlive them. But we don't know. We are in an age which has incentivized endless talk. So [00:46:00] we are, uh, in an age when blabbering is, uh, A thriving business says on another podcast, which is a gab fest.

Yes. You see now in a class, which I studied four or five are YouTubers with more than 50, 000 followers. They blabber all the time. Now they are, they are 20 to 23. Students and they're blabbering their way to bank. Mm. So, uh, uh, and, uh, so we are in an, uh, age of endless talk. People are, uh, talking more than they know.

They are sharing more than they experience and observe. So we don't know what will survive as the, uh, record of history later. So, uh, I I, but

Manisha: even if it's, if this movie becomes a record of history, I don't think anyone will confuse it. As Hindus hijacking, like even if that [00:47:00] movie is taken as historical thing, I think nowhere will anyone get confused in going,

I I, I am not sure where, what will be taken, but, uh, I am not sure whether even he is right or not.

But I think, uh, the records would be very mixed. The one thing that I'll say about, you know, predicting what's gonna happen in the digital age is there's this book that's written, uh, by Eric Schmidt and j Cohen, the new Digital Age. Uh, and these guys, uh, the executive chairman, Google director, Google ideas, the founders of Google.

And basically it's, it's a very, it's a very interestingly written book. This was, I think, written in 2013 and I, I read it in, I think, 2013 and early 2014. I had read it about a year and a half or so after News Laundry had started. And, uh, that time Neda, that Iranian girl who was killed on, on camera. So they had come, come, you know, painted various [00:48:00] ways, how the digitization of the whole world, the digital age, how it would impact journalism, how it would impact commerce.

Many of the things that they've said have actually turned out accurate, but many, they, I mean, it is. 2024 when you read it, these are arguably some of the smartest people on earth, you know, the founder of Google, et cetera, because they had predicted so much accurately, but some they've got it so wrong, you know, forget everything else.

What social media was supposed to do to us, bring us closer. I don't know if you guys remember, I mean, I first heard of Facebook, I think 2007 or eight, I'm not sure it was in the mid 2000s and someone told me about it and what it's supposed to do, et cetera. And the whole pitch of social Facebook was the world will become a family.

You know, you will start getting a fucking, it's not like it was off by 10, 15%, the opposite happened. But yeah, so let's get to the emails. You haven't watched it, have you?

Raman: No, I, I [00:49:00] have you were

there, you were a reporter at the time, so tell us what happened, where were you reporting from?

Raman: No, no, I have not seen it.

Uh, And this happened 24 years ago. I was metro editor with the Indian Express and I had a team of 19 reporters. Uh, it happened in the, in December. Why I remember because I, uh, remember 31st of December, there was a party near Eve. I reached there at three o'clock in the night.

Oh, you were getting drunk, huh?

Raman: No,

till

Raman: 1. 30 we were reporting. And getting drunk, huh? I had my first drink at 3 o'clock, 3 a. m.

I thought, I thought you, I thought you had done a Deepak Chaurasiya. Raj, I'm reporting.

Raman: 3 a. m. I had my first drink. I remember that. Uh, in fact, uh, you know, if I just recall, I mean, It's very difficult to, you know, recall small, small things, but I, I [00:50:00] remember that at that time, uh, we had very minutely, uh, you know, done this reporting.

There were eight, nine reporters and me, including, uh, we were at the airport, uh, mostly and operating from there. And, uh, eight, nine reporters, they were covering all the angles. We never thought Talked of, you know, these names, Bhola and all these names. So, uh, I remember there was no such report as such later, uh, when, uh, I think the row and, uh, all, uh, these people came up with the details, then, then they mentioned this ball, but Bola was never a major.

I think the major issue at that time was that

Masood

Raman: and, and, uh, also the handling of The entire thing, when it landed in Amritsar, that was very bad. And in fact, uh, Lal Krishna Adwani was criticized like hell. I remember that. And, uh, it's

huge incompetence. You think about it? Yes.

Raman: And, and, and when [00:51:00] we. See the small thing.

I remember one of my reporter, uh, Suneetra Choudhury, uh, who was a trainee. Uh, I think she had become a crime reporter. I don't remember that, but she did a very good story. And we, I, in fact, had, uh, you know, put her on Kataria's, Kataria, I think the person who died in the plane, Kataria. So I, I just put her with the, uh, with Kataria's families.

So she became part of them because she was going there right from the beginning, even before Kataria, anything happened to Kataria. There was no

live coverage at that time. Was there?

Raman: There was no live coverage.

Manisha: TV had arrived. Z News is only the only one

channel. I think a the times all came much later.

2001 or two. The day the day he was he saying that day it was resolved.

Raman: It was resolved. That's why at least very late.

Also, uh, one thing it means we can always throw like stock homes syndrome [00:52:00] like humanization. Mm-Hmm . But the captors, uh, the terrorists even harden country. Terrorists, um, for them hijack is a new experience.

They are also nervous. They also try different things to, uh, put people at ease and even themselves at ease because they are also nervous. And people who have been captured, they are more. Uh, terrified because these people are nervous if if the hardened terrorists who have done which is unlikely that any even a hardened terrorist would have done more than one hijack because it's a rare thing for them also.

So just so that. Star News existed, which was NDTV. Zee News existed. But other than that, uh, other channels didn't exist at that time. One tidbit about that was, which was funny. And one newspaper [00:53:00] carried that the plane that took off from New Delhi to negotiate with terrorists, uh, in Kandahar. So Saradhi Yadav was the civil aviation minister.

He was part of the team. So he Kept the plane grounded because, uh, he wanted good car. So, and, uh, it was in the city page of a newspaper. No, I think Doval was,

Raman: Doval was the main character at that time. Lal Krishna Advani was the main character. Uh,

Dullat, of course.

Raman: Dullat, yes. And, and this, uh, of course, I mean, Vajpayee was also, was, uh, Jaswant.

I mean, these were the people and also, uh, whatever was happening, you know, while, uh, interacting with these.

I remember the videos of the families who were really upset and crying, which apparently, at least from what one hears, had a lot to do with Vajpayee's decision because he saw the [00:54:00] images of the families.

Manisha: Yeah, yeah. So the movie also shows like there are some real life footage of people, families at that time. They were completely unaware. They were not being told what's happening. For the longest time it just kept saying delayed, delayed, flight delayed. So there was a lot of. No, on

Raman: 31st when the plane landed, uh, only Kataria's families was allowed to go inside the plane.

So Sunitra became part of them and she went with them to the, so we were expressed. And he died because of

a heart attack.

Raman: Huh? No, no, no. He was, he was the high,

yeah, he was sl. There was another case where, uh, you know, hijack with someone, dad, heart attack, because he was roughed up. That was, he was, he was, uh, the, uh, returning from du he was newly married, the man who, and so, and he, he, he objected to something and out of nervousness, they killed him.

Right.

Manisha: But just imagine, actually, the big thing is that [00:55:00] Ri's of Masood Azhar and what a wrecked on India afterwards.

Yeah, but I mean, yeah, although. It was

Manisha: actually such a seminal event in that sense.

I mean, that character plays a role in that film, which I've watched otherwise on Pearl, Daniel Pearl, because he had actually was orchestrated.

Manisha: was one of the guys released, Umar, who

carried out that this thing, but anyway. Right. So, uh, now let's get to the emails and we have lots. Uh, we only, as you know, enter the emails of subscribers. And if you're an artistic subscriber, not only can you mail us, you can join the hafta. If you can give us something as beautiful as sahafat, uh, you can mail us at podcasts at newslondon.

com. I repeat podcasts at newslondon. com or just click on the link in the show notes and this thing will pop up this form and you can fill in your critique inputs. Suggestions over there. And, uh, keep it below 150 words, although many people have [00:56:00] broken that rule today. Uh, let's, so we'll start from the top.

Manisha: So we have a mail from Vatsal who says that he was listening to PM's speech on Independence Day and his picture on uniform civil code. Uh, I've started to think that he's probably looking at a midterm poll. I remember same point was also raised by the guest in NL Hafta's budget discussion episode as well.

And considering that BGP is unlikely to get support on UCC by their allies. A midterm poll might actually be a reality. There's a possibility that BJP's misconstrued notion on US, UCC can help polarize the country to a next level and allow them a springboard for a majority government again. What are your thoughts?

And there has another mail.

Well, on this one, let's get the thoughts. No, I think the age of mid pools is over. So for not forever, but for now, for now. And, um, it was also speculated that 2024 general elections would be pre pooned. There was a lot of talk in that [00:57:00] in 2023 would be held when, when there were reasons to see that they are on a popular tide.

But now, uh, the days they have, they will see as a, it as a bounty. Raman sir. Do you have a take on this?

Raman: No, I think it's speculative. Do

you

Raman: think

Manisha: it's a possibility? No take. I don't think so. Also, UCC, I don't know if it's Yeah, I emotive issue that No, UCC Yeah, I find it highly unlikely

that on the back of this they think they can sweep the country.

I don't know. On gender

Manisha: laws, there's more or less Agreement everywhere that

Raman: UCC is part of the gender should be uniform. UC is part of directive principles, which are there in the Constitution. So if someone discusses it doesn't mean that.

Yeah, I think what he's saying is that if you were to read what, what the PM wants, I mean, what I think if at all of it, temple happens, it won't happen because someone wants it.

It'll happen because. You know, one hears a [00:58:00] lot these days that Mr. Modi is on the defensive, even within the Sankh Parivar. Uh, there is rumblings, they don't want him around. So, if at all it happens, it'll be because he'll bring down the house to save himself. But not because anyone actually wants a mid term poll.

Manisha: And then, uh, Another mail by the same person, Vatsal, uh, says, would like to know our opinion on creamy layer and SCST reservation. In my understanding, suppose a family has leveraged reservation for say two generations, comes under creamy layer, it'll open up opportunity, opportunity for some other modernized families that may be even more backward and would not have easily availed the advantage of reservation.

This I think will improve and rationalize the system even more so, although for properly implementing it, it will require concrete data, perhaps a report of Rohini commission when made public will throw more light on it.

What are your opinions? Conceptually, I think the whole creamy lid, you know. Basis seems logical, but how

Manisha: good data, but

how could you do it

Manisha: and

you can listen to church that has been discussed in detail.

Manisha: [00:59:00] Anonymous says, just an anecdote, just an anecdotal example of how it is like for a female doctor to work in a hospital during night shift. A female friend was working in a government hospital in Delhi. Number of female doctors faced the same problem. same issue of where to rest during the night shift.

She was also not able to find a place to rest and would sleep in a ward or wherever she could find a place in the hospital. At that time, I used to have conversations with her. Is she safe? Where is she resting? I was talking to her after this case. She also acknowledged that she was lucky that nothing happened to her.

In this case as well, in Kolkata, the doctor did not have a place to rest. That is why she was there in the first place. I don't know why is nobody raising. I know. Such a basic infrastructural issue for doctors. Yeah.

Raman: But at Ames, at Ames though, I saw, uh, Ames is the number one place in

the country, sir Ames.

She resting in. Sure. Random wants I'm would have it, but I mean, I've had an experience of Ames in the last week. I had to go there because close friend, you know, lost a family member and there was a, you know, police case. So it was, it was an accident, et [01:00:00] cetera. So I had gone to Ames now. You know, when Ames gives you the MLC, medical legal case, when I actually saw the process, I mean, it must have taken us about an hour and a half over there.

It was a 15 minute process, if you think about it. The guy sitting there puts in the data of, you can just scan it and there are softwares which will just fill in the form. This person is doing this one key at a time. Then the, what do they call it? The, um, the medical in charge or the chief medical officer has to sign whatever has to.

Now you're in the emergency of AIMS. You can imagine the amount of emergency that'll be coming, you know, some child with a bust head, someone with a bone broken, someone bloody bleeding. That medical officer is also dealing with those. Now people are waiting for that medical officer to sign because without that medical officer's signature.

I was thinking, why would they have required the signature of a person who [01:01:00] should be, because you don't even have the heart to tell the guy, you know, leave that child bleeding to death and come and sign my form. Who's going to say that? I'm sure some people will. India. But most people won't say that.

People are just waiting. Because that guy is, how can you need the signature of a person who is on duty to deal with patients here? Systems in this country are fucked, man. They just make no sense. Okay,

Manisha: Harnik Kang says, along with the horrific Kolkata rape case, a gruesome rape case occurred in Muzaffarnagar, which you also discussed.

In Manusmriti, eight types of marriages are described. These are Brahma, Deva, Arsha, Prajapatiya, Asura, Gandharva, Rakshasa and Peshacha Rakshasa. And Peshacha are allowed to Kshatriya Varna, chapter 35, 33. In Rakshas, Rakshas marriage I'm guessing, it's okay to abduct a girl in front of his family, in front of her family members, even okay to use violence and cut down members and kidnap the girl and consummate the marriage with her.[01:02:00]

It's okay to have sex even if the girl is drugged or senseless. Such gruesome practice mentioned in Manusmriti considered as a religious text. Even proposed to students in Diu and Rishi Manu statue in Rajasthan High Court. I mean, it's also there. So no wonder 86 rapes happen in our rotten society every day.

Rape is widely used as a tool to assert caste dominance and showing mardangi. The more oppressed class gets educated. uplifted socially and financially, the more this tool is being used.

Well, Harnik, I haven't read the Manusmriti and have no interest either, but I'm not sure I will describe it as a religious text.

Manisha: Yeah, it's not.

I mean, I don't consider it. Also, another inaccuracy is, it's not an inaccuracy, but, uh, Misinterpretation that, uh, it is described, it is what he said prescribed in D. U. Manu is prescribed. Now, well, Aristotle and Plato are also, Aristotle also defended [01:03:00] slavery, but we Manu, apart from very problematic things, and a lot of things which are not acceptable to contemporary social and political philosophy, he was, along with others also, there were other lawgivers in ancient India, he was a lawgiver.

So you need, in order for, Uh, critical evaluation of his teacher. As a log giver, you need to study the text. You need to study a rest estate total or plateau to critique him, right? So, so that, so the purpose of studying need not only be to appreciate it just to,

Raman: it's academic,

academic.

Manisha: J Baskar says, hi, team nl.

Really love the latest episode of Nuisance and Healthcare. Appreciate your work. I have a question about lateral entry, unlike the IIFS card out. Do they, the lateral aspirants, also undergo a background check by RAW or a competitive authority? Considering the gravity [01:04:00] of the position, one assumes is of a larger national interest.

I guess she

means competent authority.

Manisha: Oh, yeah. Competent. Competent authority. Uh, so are they vetted by someone? We have seen how under the scanner, under the current regime, be it the UPSC recruitment scandal, NEET scandal under the NTA, respective chairman were appointed laterally. Is that true? Is that correct?

I'm not sure.

SEBI.

Manisha: If it's not duly followed, could this also be a ground of violation on part of the SEBI in the Hindenburg issue? Is there a system in place? As I write to you this email, the government has called for applications to recruit 45 positions to the UPSC lottery. Were those, that was taken back?

That

was withdrawn, but there have been lateral entries. Is there

Manisha: a check on them from, like, from security agencies? No,

see, for regular, suppose you are not from lateral entry, you are from mainstream civil services examination, so the check comes only at the third stage, after prelims means when you are called for interview, [01:05:00] then there is a check, uh, by agencies.

The police station nearest to the residence, uh, your residence that you have filled in the form will be, and there would be inquiries from neighborhood also about you. So, That happens in most sensitive, not just in the services, it happens in, Courts everywhere. Yes. So, but here lateral entry is for a very short period, two or three years service.

So, uh, this is less likely, but, uh, of course, total negligence would not be there. There would be some procedure, but not as rigorous as regular civil services. Although, if you look at infiltrating the New York governor, uh, this lady who worked in a very, uh, influential position in the New York governor's office in Kuno.

Uh, she and her husband were assets of the Chinese Communist [01:06:00] Party. And now, of course, they've come out. She not only served under Kuno, she served under two or three very sensitive and high ranking positions. So, yeah. The things

Raman: have changed in the government appointments now. Many posts, uh, which were, you know, People were coming through UPSC, you know, those posts have been abolished and the government has been hiring people, you know, on merit and as consultants.

So I know many of my friends, I mean, even those who have studied at Harvard and also they have also been working with the government. Uh, there was no background, uh, you know, I

also, uh, second is that, uh, I would not say it as a UPSC recruitment scandal because, uh, the integrity of the examination system, unlike other examination system where paper leak happened.

That is not in question [01:07:00] examination. In fact, UPSC models can be followed by other examination system where there has been no leak UPSC. Here the case of that IAS officer Pooja or something was of oversight. Oversight means lack of verification, proper verification of quota certificate and a lot of these quota certificates.

Um, for reservation, uh, procured through, uh, say unfair means or they are forced. So that is a problem. Uh, like you see EWS when the government announced in 2019 to get income certificate, a fake income certificate is a, uh, It is a thriving business and because of [01:08:00] the increased surveillance now, you, you will see that the cutoff will like come down, come down because it will be, it will become more difficult to get income certificate.

Sure. Also, uh, one more interesting thing that it is also, uh, that how people are very confident about, uh, Doing anything and not being caught like it's a Hindi movie or even a Hollywood kind of a script that people are Willing to be reborn. So I know two three people who have exhausted their attempts at civil services They are at 32 age and they are now planning And it is no joke.

They are, they are in the process of it. Of getting another certificate. No, no, no. They are doing it legally. But see, once they are passionate to get into the job. [01:09:00] And second is how they are confident of not being, getting caught. They say that we will, uh, like, uh, Disappear from the certificates. We will, what is, what, how I am born for government?

Because I have passed 10th class. This is my name and this is my date of birth. I will again appear for class 10th.

Hafta song: What? Wow.

And, and within five years. 10th, 12th, I will graduate five years. So I said, if you are unable to pass this examination now with all efforts, how will we pass in five years? Five years we will, and, and one is baby faced, I can say that, okay, he may not get caught.

But one is, uh, one looks like Raka from Chacha and there is no chance he will [01:10:00] get caught. And it is no fix. And I see him on the, this is, and this is a good, you know, my mother was always that

Manisha: I did not get 90

percent in 12th. I should do this trade idea. You have to basically, he's doing it through. It is illegal, but it is an interesting story.

Manisha: He's very disturbed by the happenings in Kolkata, the rape and murder followed by an apparent cover up by the state machinery and violence against protesting students. In the background, the constant demand for quick death. Penalty for the accused with the implication being due process shouldn't be followed in this case.

There's no evidence that death penalty or encounters will deter rape. And he says he's also written a blog that we can read about. We'll add this to the show notes says treat the disease, not the symptom says he's a big fan of News Laundry and a subscriber of News Laundry and News Minute. Yay!

Thank you so much, Raghuraj, for your support.

Really [01:11:00] appreciate it. Um, you know, I, I will say, and I, I had long discussion on this because she's a lawyer and she was part of the posh, uh, guidelines, uh, Karuna Nandi. She worked with Justice Verma on that. I remember I had had a chat with her at one point, several years ago when there was, I think it must've been during the Nirbhaya when this, This whole death penalty thing was a thing again that, um, for a lot of lawyers and even lawyers who've really stood up and upheld feminist values and spoken up on that.

They think actually it's a very bad idea because it incentivizes a person who kills someone after rape because they know that death penalty for rape and death penalty for death. So the chances of someone identifying me. So it actually incentivizes a rapist. To commit murder if you have a death sentence.

So this is something I'm just regurgitating something that I'd heard from a feminist lawyer, but doesn't it have a UV on this at all? It's an old [01:12:00] argument. It's an old argument like, uh, for all punitive codes, whether it is, um, Uh, discouraging the commission of the ultimate crime. So this has the opposite impact.

You have a take on this? I mean, yeah, I agree with what you're saying. Uh, uh, when the Nirbhaya case judgment came out and they say only in the rarest of rare cases that, you know, the death penalty would be given. There's some, uh, there's still some subjectivity to it. Lots of subjectivity. But if they put an out and out rule for death penalty, I think that's a bit too much and what you're saying, like people will only be encouraged to just to, you know, not have any evidence or anybody being a witness to the crime.

They will want to go ahead and murder the person. It just makes a bad situation worse.

Manisha: Saini Nayak says, hi team. I'm writing this after listening to episode 498. I have a suggestion about the links of the books in the recommendation. Since we're all here supporting independent media, can we also try and [01:13:00] promote independent bookshops instead of

Amazon?

Now I

Manisha: understand the discounts on Amazon are a big attraction. As a former development sector employee on a meager salary, it means a lot. But we are paying for a subscription to News Laundry. Maybe we can regulate our book purchases and buy from independent bookshops. We all know a few in our respective cities.

There's Champaka in Bangalore, Goa, Book Inc in Delhi, Kitab Khana in Mumbai, Pagdande in Pune, Oxford Bookstores in multiple locations.

So, uh, so, so we've started sending our producer, Aryan informs us that this practice already started. The link that will be given will be the link from an independent book store.

Manisha: But I love Amazon. Says the Evil, yet necessary. Evil,

but necessary.

Manisha: Okay. The logic of sending Srinivasan Jain to Gaza, while I do understand the issues of Indian media not covering the stories, I find it difficult to contribute towards a ground report from Gaza for three reasons. Let's say it's not going to be from Gaza, just to be clear, because journalists can't enter that country.

Area it's gonna be,

although we will try.

Manisha: Yeah, [01:14:00] it's West Bank and Israel. I would rather use the fund helping families in Gaza. Going to ground zero for reporting would be unsafe. There are plenty of Instagram accounts of Gaza themselves who are trying to tell the world what's happening there. My suggestion would be to use these social media accounts for a story.

These people deserve to be heard and seen. A lot of people don't know what. that Israel has already destroyed 99 percent of the region and they're bombing the last active region. The situation is way worse than what it was when all eyes on Gaza went viral and all celebrities decided to speak up. Yet, nobody's talking about it now because they don't know what's happening.

Actually, it's a good idea for, uh, they will be speaking in one of the reports. I know Srinivasan Jain, he will be speaking to, um, These Instagram accounts, these journalists from Gaza, uh, on what life has been like there. And so we are going to include that bit also. I

mean, we've addressed some of these at the outset, but on the bit about, um, you know, the unsafe bit and.

Giving funds there. I mean, all the Vatsal hasn't asked. [01:15:00] Uh, I mean, the safety issue, I think the Hafta producer is going right? Aryan, you're going. So, uh, I have asked him to read the safety booklet. We are going to be getting helmets and all that. Uh, the brief is always that, No story is more important than your safety and well being, but when it comes to actually raising funds, et cetera, not that you've said, why don't we do that?

But I just thought I'd address this right now, because in the last few years, several emails have come from very good, credible organizations that will you do a campaign with us to raise funds, you know, use your platform to raise funds for us. So I've always, and the very well meaning and credible organizations doing some great work.

I've always stayed away from that because that would kind of confuse what we do. You know, it's, it's, it's just the too many things that, and how do we decide? Like, like even when we do a story, sometimes if we talk to an organization, we'll provide a link to their organization's website in our story through that, you know, you can contribute to that, [01:16:00] but we will not put it on our platform because there's just so many causes then and our cause is news.

Everyone picks their cause. And we've picked ours. So that's, that's why. So that's why for us news, absolutely giving funds for rehabilitation is important, but so is news. And I think both can co exist.

Manisha: Hey, anonymous letter for Anand Vardhan. Anand Vardhan claimed that FSC of Mauritius had rubbished the Hindenburg report.

It did nothing of the sort. The FSC objected to Mauritius being called a tax haven and said that IPE plus fund in which Mark B and her husband had invested was not licensed in Mauritius. The FEC is a tad disingenuous. The Hindenburg report links documents and sources that clearly show that IIFL, the wealth management fund which managed IPE plus as well as Adani linked fund, the global opportunities fund were licensed in Mauritius.

The search on the FSC website shows many IIFL and Adani linked GOF funds. Dhaval book's email published in the Hindenburg report is [01:17:00] addressed to a Mauritius address. Mauritius is a tax haven. Regardless of their disclaimers, but with a well administered regulatory system with transparent and clear rules.

They are not accused of any wrongdoing. One can only speculate why they chose to wade into this and the earlier Dhani report controversy.

So, uh, I have no means to ascertain whether FSC claims are correct or not. But I just said what FSC has said, and I will give you a link to their official website communique, whether they have released their statement that said that.

And I also what you said, I also said the same thing that it said that we are not tax haven and it. Uh, it's there, but no, they, they, what? I didn't say that I believe them or not sure that you see that. I just brought into the discussion that they have said what was comment. So I have no means to [01:18:00] assert that whether they are or not.

But, but what I am saying is that, and have said three things first, that, uh, these. So, uh, cell companies are not domiciled in our country. And second is that we are not tax haven and we don't host cell companies. So this is what they said, and this was widely reported in newspapers. I just said that. So it's not my claim.

It is what they said. And this is wrong. And also, if suppose we reverse the. Uh, situation and RBI says, and there is a allegation that some company in, say, say, Bangladesh has cell companies in India, or, uh, some individual has cell com, uh, investment in cell companies in India, RBI says, these, all these things in newspapers will carry this RVIS, right?

So, but [01:19:00] Mauris is only, uh, concerned with the part where they. name is there. So it's not, uh, uh, uh, the whole report, but on that, I will agree with anonymous that why have they decided to wade into this? Like whenever anything happens, and this is a discussion we've had here several times, every time a Panama paper or a whatever other paper, or, you know, all these things happen that, Oh, he has a company in Mauritius, offshore entity, Virgin Islands, there's nothing.

illegal about that per se, but those are the headlines that go with it, you know, Amitabh Bachchan has so and so, all those and and we had a discussion here about that also when Madhu was also here and we had that and each time there is a nudge nudge, you know, wink wink suggestion by many even genuine investigations that, Oh, this person has an offshore entity in such and such, which is not illegal per se, but [01:20:00] FSC or Mauritius doesn't always give a response at all.

What is wrong if Nalambani has a company here? Why is Indian Express or the Panama papers or the Jakarta papers or whatever papers those were suggesting? They've never made such a statement on this. They've suddenly decided to make a statement, which is kind of dumb. You know, either you've made it each time,

Raman: 99 percent cases of money laundering with ED and conspiracy, uh, you know, cases of conspiracy, uh, you know, registered by CBI, they will fall down in If, uh, Mauritius is not a tax haven, if you just look at their charge sheets, the 10 charge sheets filed against, uh, uh, you know, the former Andhra Pradesh chief minister, Jagan Reddy, the 10 charge sheets, just see that how much money, uh, you know, came.

Through bribes. Uh, you know how he took, uh, [01:21:00] when, when his father was the chief minister, he took bribe and how the money was siphoned off to Mauritius in, uh, in Mauritius, there is one account which has got sub accounts, a, b, c, d, e, f, and a is with the Jagan. B is with another Indian industrialist and sees, I mean, all this is documented by our government.

Very on c, BI and Ed. Okay. If, if, if they, if, if the it is not a tax happen, all cases will fall down. Sure.

Manisha: RS says, having been inaccurately labeled as a woke

millennial, millennial X, maybe zal is after millennial, gen

Manisha: X saying

it's Gen Z and. I'm just guessing. I was a bit

Manisha: hesitant to write on this issue on the sex gender binary again, but Abhinandan Sekhri continues to double down with pointless rhetorical questions about dead and incarcerated bodies even as the other panelists profess their inadequate knowledge on the subject.

He had [01:22:00] earlier also tried to silence Ragham Elka with his opinion on the matter. I'm not saying I disagree with him. This is too complex an issue to have a black and white position on, but his tendency to forcefully impose his opinions on something that even his co panelists are careful and reticent about is disconcerting.

For an honest discussion on the topic, experts need to be invited. Rhetorical questions only serve to silence potential detractors.

So Aris, we read your mind, we are doing a let's talk about because other subscribers have written and two subscribers, uh, one who belongs to the trans community have volunteered.

to put together a panel. Uh, and hopefully in the next four to five weeks, you will see a two part series on, I was, I thought we should call it the trans pod. You get it? The trans podcast, but that'd be too tacky. So we'll just go with, let's talk about trans issues, but I still say we should call it trans pod, the trans pod.

Transporting is also

Manisha: a pun. Make aunty

understand the [01:23:00] joke by drawing a diagram. We are talking about trans issues and it'll be a podcast.

Manisha: It becomes trans pod. But how is it funny? Like, how is it a pun?

Okay. I thought I was the uncle of the house.

Manisha: I actually don't get what you're saying. Even Anand doesn't get it.

He's also looking surprised.

Anand always looks bored. Is that your surprised face or your bored face? First clarify, cause she thinks you're looking surprised. I think you're looking bored.

Manisha: Did you get it?

No one copied it

Manisha: and everyone's just saying yes.

Transpod, yeah. Podcast, which is on trans issues. So, Transpod.

Manisha: Okay.

Okay. But it

Manisha: doesn't have

a pun, does it? Oh, it does. It's a pun, not fun. It's a pun, not fun. It's funny, not funny. Okay. So, but RS, we are going to be doing that. But just want to say, I'm not [01:24:00] silencing anyone. I think the expectation isn't, you know, pardon me, the expectation is that If I, who's watching, don't agree with a person, and that person is not convinced because someone else is contradicting that the person is, I don't say you have to think like me, but I'm going to say what I think, man.

That's the whole idea of this podcast. The expectation that I shouldn't do that goes against what News Laundry and Hafta stand for. So, That's my piece.

Manisha: Okay, another letter from Vatsal. Vatsal,

first of all.

Manisha: How much are you writing?

How many, you're breaking a 200, 150 word limit.

Are you sure it's different Vatsal? Or is Vatsal creating? Vatsal, you, when I'm arguing. So he also said

Manisha: I wrote a couple of mails before after 498, but I believe the shoot must have finished.

Oh, so he said I did not try to bypass your word limit. Okay.

Manisha: Uh, also it says, thank you for the heartless story.

Abhinandan was fairly sharp in his observation. Although I'm not a bureaucrat like other friend, like our friend [01:25:00] Anand Vardhan, I too felt slightly short of making into the holy PDF of the UPSC final list.

Now I'm

Manisha: just a techie.

All right. You can be reborn. You can be reborn. Now Vatsal you also learnt a hack on how you can take the exam again.

Take your 10th and then start over.

Manisha: Karthik says, Hi NL team, I've been a regular Hafta listener since 2015 and I'm writing to express my disappointment at the lack of depth in discussing certain crucial developments in recent episodes. Definitely expected more in depth discussion on SC judgment of sub characterization and creamy layer in SC STs.

Around 2017, BJP wanted to perform A recategorization of OBCs. That was supposed to be a masterstroke, but they never followed up. They don't seem interested in the same with regard to SCSTs. What's your view about creamy layer in SCSTs? Manu Joseph wrote, in the absence of creamy layer, reservation will go to the privileged among Dalits.

Also, the lateral entry wasn't just about reservations. The stated intent was to bring in subject matter expertise. Can [01:26:00] Coer bureaucrats make policy on subjects like using gen AI in judiciary or recent 2024 broadcasting bill that's now been taken aback, taken back. You may be covering this in columns, but hafta is your flagship product.

We expect better.

So, but

Manisha: Chacha had a very long discussion on both

on cream, so maybe we should discuss in here also. But you know, we didn't wanna replicate 'cause Chacha had a really, uh, deep discussion on this. So you can both issues. But Karthik, the way Karthik has spelled his name. I think he's from the South, so the Hindi podcast may not work for him.

Manisha: Oh, yeah. Because

if it was a North Indian Karthik, it would be K R T I K, so Yeah, okay, Aarti, point taken.

Manisha: Hey there, uh, says Anonymous. As an avid listener, I've followed your episodes across many places, but today was specially surreal. I'm in Amsterdam, tripping on Mother Earth. I'm standing at the hand in hand memorial to murder journalist Peter R.

DeVries. Reflecting on the tragic loss of such a powerful voice, the monument is named against all currents. [01:27:00] As I stood here, your latest episode played through my headphones and then Abhinandan's word came on. Let us remember how partisan and pathetic our legacy media has become and shame on them. That hit hard.

Superannuated aunty. Next letter is from superannuated auntie, who says, Dear NL team, Nidhi Suresh's participation in Hafta 499 added so much to the discussion. Please have NL and TNM's reporters join the panel. Their up to date on the ground reporting experience gives substance, depth, and nuance to the discussion.

It seems to me we are woefully ignorant about our neighboring countries and often hold on to our own. outdated perceptions and understandings. Why? Our hyperactive news cycle takes all our attention, arrogance, whatever it's a dangerous and unneighborly stance to take. We take notice only when some crisis develops and find, and then find that we've missed all the signals that would have prepared us for what has transpired.

Could NL have a regular regional news analysis, perhaps in collaboration with media partners in neighboring countries? The theme could also be environmental [01:28:00] issues that do not obey national boundaries. That's true. Looking forward to the Hafta 500, it's already out, you can watch it. No,

no, looking forward to the next 500 Haftas.

Manisha: Looking forward to the next 500

Haftas. They're not

Manisha: already out,

but look

Manisha: forward to them.

I skip words while talking, you skip words while reading. But, on this, I appeared on a podcast from a podcaster from across the border. He also got thoroughly abused. I also got thoroughly abused. Not that that matters, but I, I'm not sure, you know, Also, our neighbors

Manisha: media scene is very bad.

Most of our neighbors.

Yeah. What are you going to do, man?

Manisha: But yeah, from time to time, getting them on board for, we have a regular foreign policy column though by Nirupama. She does a pretty good job of keeping an eye on the neighborhood. Nithila says, response to Abhinandan's grand statement on gender, prisons, and dead bodies.

Your essential point seems to be that there's some characteristic of your biology that are used to determine your gender by [01:29:00] society. And this can be at odds with what you determine your gender to be. Who is refuting this? This is true, and it is a problem. It's a problem that there's no easy answer for which prisons would put people in prison.

It's a problem because the trans person's life is endangered. It's a question to be posed to society at large, including trans people. Of course, one can also get into prison abolishment, being a part of progressive politics here. It's not a question to be used as a gotcha. And to be used to say that this is why, You are what your biology dictates when that in itself is the problem.

As for sex is real, no one says sex is not real, but sex and gender are different. Both are valid and important identifiers in society and valid and important parts of your identity.

Very well put, Nithila. Maybe Nithila should also be on that podcast. Maybe we should connect Nithila to our friends who are putting together the panel.

And I will be hosting this. So all the politically incorrect questions will be covered. there center. We shall not skip around those. But on [01:30:00] the one point that you said, I think very well put two of the questions. So you've answered two of my questions. I've answered, I've put that question to many people who haven't answered it.

So it wasn't really gotcha. If someone gives me an answer like this, I'll say, okay, that's a good answer. Uh, even if it doesn't completely convince me, which is one thing that I think you have left out is that it can pose a risk to the life of the trans person. I think what you have missed out, it can also pose a risk to the life of the other person.

If you put Mike Tyson in a women's jail, I don't think Mike Tyson's life is at risk. I think the other people's lives are at risk. Uh, so that is something that a lot of people just ignore that question because it can't be addressed. So I completely agree with you that a trans person's life is at risk depending on where you put him or her.

But depending on how a person conveniently uses this, that person can also put other people's lives at risk. Are we okay with that? [01:31:00] So, you know, that's I think a legitimate question as well. which we shall answer in this podcast once it's put together.

Manisha: Dr. AK says about the everything becomes about everything problem.

I think that almost all of India's issues can be traced back to the fact that we are still a largely pre industrial agricultural society. Even things like civic sense, popular morality is deeply, deeply influenced by the levels of industrialization.

I'm late to the party, but a recent observation makes me want to come back on what you said during the election. Why are we judging parties by face? That's not how it's supposed to work. I took that for granted back then, but now when Biden was backed off, when Biden backed off and Kamala came in, we see the U.

S. becoming a real battleground, giving Democrats a good chance. So doesn't face play an important role here? Yes, I know it's a presidential form and ours is Besides party I ideology, doesn't it matter who executed his credibility, professionalism, et cetera. I think it's important and I'm happy that RG has turned it around for himself, this selection as [01:32:00] NAR tta.

Recently, I'd be happy to see him leading us previously, he seemed to be a bozo

Bojo, Shiva. I don't recall when I have said, why are we judging a party by the face? That's not supposed to work. I'm not sure what context was because I mean, maybe I say opposite things, but I actually believe the other I I've said that in the digital age It's a reality show and whoever you connect with wins.

I've said that pretty often enough So i'm not sure what context unless you're on with rss which has an ideology, but yeah a point taken Regarding the RG thing, I mean, I'm not sure I'm not so excited with him as someone who can lead the country. I still don't think he's ready for that. But yeah, he's a great manager.

I don't think he should be the center forward. But speaking of him, I've just got a text from an aunt saying, I don't know, maybe there's this thing going around that. It seems Rahul Gandhi is getting married in November. Nikku, [01:33:00] Aunty, I'm sure you don't watch Salman

Manisha: Khan, Rahul Gandhi and then Abhinandan Singh.

I'm sure

you don't watch Aftab because Aunty would not be forwarding me these. WhatsApp forwards, but unless you have got this WhatsApp directly from him, there is no such news anywhere. The first place I've heard it is from my aunt's WhatsApp forward. So, yeah.

Manisha: Karthik Prasad says, Hello NL team, I have a small take on the discourse around trans issues.

I have no clear stance on this entire topic of sex versus gender and I'm okay with it. There's nothing wrong in trying to educate yourself and keep shut when you don't even have basic facts. But what I have noticed is the discourse, is so high. In this discourse is the phenomena of projection. I have a friend who lives in a nice suburb in California who got hooked on to Jordan Peterson.

He's so annoying. And rotate and cut through YouTube.

And

Manisha: go through

YouTube. Through YouTube, this Jordan Peterson. Oh, annotate

Manisha: and go through YouTube. Okay. The last time we met, he started saying that the teachers at his kids elementary school are encouraging gender transition for kids. [01:34:00] That was an explosive allegation.

I reached out to other friends who had. Kids in the same school and mentioned this and they had no idea what he was talking about. I remember a similar thing from my BTech days when my close friends started talking about the conspiracy of love jihad and polygamy that is everywhere. I asked how many Muslim friends of this, of his have done this or how many real people has he seen doing that?

He had no answers. The projection of their fears onto everyone and willingly and willing into reality in their heads is a very sad phenomenon in modern discourse.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Manisha: Dheeraj says, Hi, I was listening to Hafta 499 while driving to office and genuinely thought that you guys may have started to use AI to read the headlines.

It was only halfway that I realized this may be an actual person. Nidhi's voice seemed so much like that of a machine. No disrespect here, but I was seriously fooled. I

think, Dheeraj, why you think that is because I also think she's a very welcome addition to Hafta because when she talks, she has very few, you know, uhs and ahs of, you know, going back to what she said.

Like the sentence is formed in her head. And then it is [01:35:00] delivered with certain smoothness, which may make us feel it's a machine. Yeah.

Manisha: As for transgender question, Abhinandan's position is a genuine position and nothing to be ashamed of. Political correctness can't be above truth. Women have fought hard for their rights and this movement is taking away whatever little safe places that they had in society.

I don't agree with that. I think it would be an extreme thing to say that it's taking away all the safe. I also agree that your reporting is slightly bent. I don't hear enough about the terrorist attacks of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis on Israeli civilians and participation of UNRW employees in those atrocities.

How even children or next generations are being unconditioned, are being conditioned to be terrorists.

Uh, have we had a lot of reports on Israel on newsletters? No. So, Dheeraj, I don't think we've had any actually. So it's not like we have We only had

Manisha: discussed on Hafta. No. No.

Raman: Oh, maybe, uh, we had, uh, our columnist might have written.

No,

Manisha: we've just discussed. No. But on Haftar, we've

discussed on one Haftar, right? [01:36:00] So on LTA.

Manisha: Let's talk about. Oh, let's

talk about. But on LTA, okay, got it. But the LTA wasn't about this conflict. The LTA was about the, the Israel Palestine coexistence historically. But, okay, point taken. But maybe we'll get this, uh, from Vasu when he goes.

Manisha: Okay, this week's letters. Rishi says, I would like to get your views on Supreme Court's quote about lower court should give bail. In case of Kejriwal's case, Supreme Court refused to give bail initially. But then later while giving bail, Supreme Court slapped lower courts. Hypocrisy ki bhi seema

Raman: hoti hai.

No, no, that is the process. Procedure. Mm. So you have to first, I mean, Supreme Court is sending you to law court because that's the process, you know?

Mm.

Manisha: Supreme Court. But

Raman: law, they had to go to law court.

So there two ways. Basically, if you come straight to the Supreme Court, unless it is some life or death issue, which [01:37:00] again, there is some truth, it's grave when they choose. They say come through the process, go to a low court and then come all the way up. So that is one reason why they don't give bail.

They don't reject it, but they say follow process. The second is they don't reject bail. They give a notice to the other party, which may be ED, CBI or the Delhi police, so that they don't give a bail just on the basis of that one petition. So, yeah, but I agree that it is still very vague. There's no consistency of the rule.

In rare

Raman: of the rare cases, they have handled it directly, but mostly, I think in more than 90 percent cases, they send it back to the lower court.

Manisha: Sayantan says, the protests happening all around India against the RG Curr incident has given me hope for my generation. I remember talking to a friend right after it happened and we both kind of thought that all the protests will fizzle out.

It's great to be proven wrong and to see my generation actually, does care to some degree. I remember a line from Midnight's Children, we are a nation of forgetters. [01:38:00] Here's to hoping that Gen Z can change that.

Well, Sayanthan.

Manisha: Good luck with that.

Gen Z. Aunty is not

Manisha: on your side. We are going to be a nation of like, a generation of like forget forgetting we won't even know attention to what's happening in front of us.

Mahindra says Hello Abhinandan and team. I wanted to ask if you can separate the art from the artist after watching this podcast episode by Bill Maher film with little kids. In this episode Bill Maher asks eight 10 year old kids hard hitting questions about their favorite Porn genre. Really?

Really?

He's given the link. That's one

Manisha: of the many horrendous things he says in the video.

Really? That sounds

Manisha: very unlike Bilma. I mean, even I've watched quite a bit of him. He's not.

Well, he, he does this actually, he does this club random when he's stoned. Anyway.

Manisha: Okay. Don't do things when you're stoned. But I will watch it and give you our comments next time.

Yeah. But

I mean, art from [01:39:00] artists, not just this, there's so many positions on, of his that I just. find very cringed, I think is doubling down all the time on, uh, you know, the, the, the, the woke thing. I, I mean, I, I agree with much of it, but his being obsessive about it, I find is a bit much his being obsessed with ageism is a bit much his position on Israel.

I completely disagree with, he just, and he's an out and out new age Zionist. And I don't mean that in the classical sense, which is a more. a reasonable definition. So there's so many things that I think he's completely off on, but net net, I think he's a very important, uh, and intelligent and clever voice on many things.

Shailaja

Manisha: Maini says, Hi, NLTNM team. Congratulations on your 500 episode. I enjoyed listening to it. I couldn't agree more with Dhanya when she said that the majority consume easy to understand [01:40:00] soundbites by definition, short, and I would add entertaining. Unfortunately, some of this just, some of this is just WhatsApp University nonsense that gets propagated over and over again.

I do have a question. It was alarming for me to read about the friendly over virtues that DMK and the BGP made to each other. Can we take political parties to court if they switch their religions? Especially if the reason for voting for them was that they were opposing the other party. Fifth of you'll be in perpetual court.

I think Indian citizens deserve a law that makes this possible. Finally, for your south, how about it's a word and means an echo. Something that reverberates best wishes for the next 500 episodes.

I like the name. I'm just going to send it to Dhanya

Raman: and Vignesh. In Marshall Pradesh, uh, they have passed a rule, uh, this law that those who change their parties will not get the pension, MLAs.

Yeah, but like that once you're an MLA, I mean, I'm sure there are some MLAs for that, for whom that's a big problem. Some, but that's hardly a [01:41:00] disincentive, you know, it's, it's like

Manisha: sometimes you have to leave the party or you can't have said blanket rules up just because misuse or I think

Raman: this changing political allegiance in our country is a menace.

So something has to be done with it.

Manisha: Okay. Uma says congratulations on 500 episodes of Hafta. A request to Abhinandan to tone down his usage of the F word. At least act like you're resisting the usage. On the free episode, it was pretty crass, with the very frequent usage of the same. Please take care.

Uma, in this episode, I don't think I've used even once, have I?

Manisha: I don't think so.

I don't think I've used you once in this episode, Uma.

Manisha: No, but she's saying previous one. I

can't undo that, no? But I'm just saying, I'm improving. Mindful. Resist the urge. There was a poem that I Or at least

Manisha: act like you're resisting.

Fish! You know the people who say fish? I want to slap people who say fish.

Fudge.

Manisha: What the fudge? See,

I'm like an acorn. It [01:42:00] is a plant. Poem I studied in class one, I tried to improve. Little by little, an acorn said, as it slowly sank in its mossy bed. I am improving every day, hidden deep in the earth away. Little by little, each date grew. Little by little, it sipped the dew and its slender branches spread, spread far and wide, and the mighty oak is the forest's pride.

Manisha: you know this? Andrew, because I learned it. What's wrong with you? Why do you know this poem that no one's ever heard?

Because I studied Israel. I was made to study it in class three. I didn't volunteer. I want to read the poem.

Manisha: Econ Ammar says, congratulations, a milestone of 500. I enjoyed the conversation thoroughly.

The only grasses spitting chicken P against . I stay in Gand and don't like to travel to Delhi for academic seminars. As I find Delhi intelligence, you're too full of themselves. I get your frustrations. intolerance of another point of view. But to put up with Chetan Bhagat as a sort of an alternative voice is no good.

The problem with Chetan Bhagat is that he's more interested in selling the product [01:43:00] than in making the product world class. He cannot be treated as an equivalent of alternative media such as NLTNM Deshbhakt as these entities care for depth in their work. Mr. Bhagat's work cater to lowest common interest.

That is, he works for maximizing the reach. But I guess you are too angry at Lutyens gas bags. Great work. See,

Amar, I was not. saying that it is him versus, you know, Romila Thapar. I'd never say that, but I was only saying that I get his anger and frustration. The reference I was making is that the fact that I have any sort of friendly interaction with him, pisses off my liberal friends to such an extent that I'm really, I was like, why the hell do you care who I have dinner with?

And why does it matter if I'm friendly with Chetan? So that was only, I'm not saying that he's the equivalent of a, you know, a Ram Guha or someone, not at all. Yeah. I mean, he's selling books and he claims that's what he does. In fact, he tells me, he says, [01:44:00] you made such a fantastic product in news laundry and it's a disgrace that you don't have 10 million followers on YouTube.

In 10 years. He tells me, he says, if this was my product, I would've had like 10 million people following it. So

Manisha: yeah, an he says, you guys do an excellent work. One small suggestion from me for the 500 episodes you should have brought in ish since he worked in mainstream media and has left it to start his YouTube channel.

Because of Adani influencing the editorial of this news channel, it would be pretty interesting conversation with him. So if you can bring him in any further episodes, it would be great.

Actually, Anish, we've done in the early days, done many. Recording with, uh, Ravish, the problem is because Ravish, uh, is more comfortable in Hindi.

So in the early days when we've done a roundtable with him, he switches to Hindi and you know the kind of mails we get from our, uh, subscribers and friends in the South that you have a Hindi podcast. We don't understand Hindi. When you break, all break into Hindi, which is why on Hafta, I have stopped inviting [01:45:00] friends who, you know, that's another reason I would love to have Meena Kotwal, because there's so much that one can actually learn from her.

She will be more comfortable in Charcha and that's the reason many names who we would really want to get will not come on Hafta because it pisses off our audience who don't speak Hindi.

Manisha: Satvik says, Dear Abhi, Uncle, and Clan, every time you discuss about gender issues, you simply deduce it to which category to put them in the legacy definition of gender.

Well, if you are so tunnel visioned, then the answer is they can be in their category at Olympics, prison, or the toilet, for all you care. I can hear all the fallacies you will call, but those are same as men who called suffragettes as women pretending to be men and wanting to vote.

Also on your point earlier on young people not suitable of handling political power, let me introduce you to those Sana Marin.

maybe look her up and then comment if young people can be, can make political change. I'm sure they can, uh, Satvik, but if you were to ask me, uh, I don't think so. Uh, I, I don't [01:46:00] think I would make someone in their early thirties, a cabinet minister, if it were up to me, uh, because I have worked with a lot of people of that age, uh, at least in the Indian context, maybe it's very different in different cultures, but if you think, you know, 30 year old Indians, uh, as a general age demographic who are responsible enough, have seen enough of the world to, uh, you know, take over such positions.

Fantastic. I haven't.

Manisha: Noman Khan says the Rajasthan education minister recently announced that all textbooks glorifying Akbar will be tossed into the flames because when in doubt, burn a few pages of history, right? You'd think after the BJP's lackluster Lok Sabha results, they'd be ready to ditch the communal fire starter and try something new, like, I don't know, actual governance, but no, they're still out there.

In one hand matching the other. Hoping that setting history a blaze will somehow ignite the electoral fortunes. It's like watching someone desperately trying to barbecue with wet coals, smokey, pointless, and bound to leave a bad taste in every once. Now,

so well-written man, some of our subscribers should write [01:47:00] satire pieces for us.

Manisha: Yeah. Okay. So Ravi says, your Hindi tagline for NL puts a dot under cab, but not under k.

So Ravi, I think that's it. But

Manisha: they should be under both or neither. I have no idea about this. We can ask. I don't think.

I think

Manisha: Manisha Pan finally took pronunciation from SO'S den. It's not B, it's Butch.

Okay. But she,

Manisha: I'm falling soil. But finally, you have a great. Surgery of recommendations. Can you study it by book, film, article, and web series or podcast?

Okay, so basically all the recommendations, they should be under Is that a

Manisha: phrase? Surgery of recommendations?

Probably. It must be. We'll look at it.

Manisha: [01:48:00] Amitabh Trehan. This is the last email. Amitabh says, many congratulations for Hafta 500. Super strong, like a certain beer of the 90s. You've been an inspiration in pursuit of the truth, keeping the flag of journalism high.

Speaking of the 90s, I was planning this note before the IC814 series became controversial. That week is vivid in my memory and the story, personal for some of us at the Rotary Public School, Gurgaon, then in Sector 17. We were classmates of the only victim, Rippon Katyal.

Oh.

Manisha: Classmates since the age of about nine years.

As a wedding gift, his father was setting up a new electrical shop for his, for him close to my home. That never opened, of course. Besides his mega funeral, a related memory of that time is Bill Clinton's subsequent Park in India visit, where he apparently made a public address on Park TV warning about terrorism and also met, uh, Rupan's young widow.

An immediate impression was the utter paralysis of the Vajpayee government when the plane stopped at Amritsar, where I believe Rupan was hurt. [01:49:00]

I'm sure you're already discussing IC814 at today's Hafta. How accurate? Sorry, not

Manisha: Rupan. I'm sure you're already discussing IC814 at today's Hafta. How accurate do you think are the backroom machinations and the espionage shown?

I'm also very curious to know from people who actually follow, um, Not journalists, but even like ex RAW, ex IB guys and what they think of.

Raman: Actually thinking of

Manisha: Because it's that casual because some scenes are a bit too casual.

Raman: Indian Express has started a series today. So the, uh, one police officer who had handled this case, he has written about it.

So maybe some RAW, retired RAW person. I'm just

thinking Amitabh Trehan. Hi Amitabh, by the way, I remember Amitabh. He's also come to the studio once when he was passing through India to visit us. This would be such an interesting, uh, addition to the screenplay, right? If they had that, you know, his father's, you know, getting stuff ready for the wedding, etc.

Is, is that an angle there? No,

Manisha: and actually that is dealt with very superfluously. The fact that they were newly married. [01:50:00] I mean, it doesn't really touch you. I think that's also one of the flaws of the film that it doesn't really dwell in anything for too long for you to feel for the victims or feel for the hostage.

But a lot of things,

I mean, when they did release the women and children, they were, you know, uh, deboarded at Dubai and there was no follow up on that. I mean, there was a lot of room for some emotional connect over there. Exactly.

Manisha: Yeah, there's no emotional investment you feel with anyone, even the pilot.

who has the most amount of scream time. But you don't really feel like

Raman: true. I think I'm going to skip it now.

Manisha: It's not that bad. It's not bad. It's a good watch, but it's fast paced. Watch it. Watch it for the newsroom depictions. There's too

many other things

Raman: to watch. One recommendation today, I mean, you must watch it.

You

must watch Urfi Javedwali. Is it good? I don't know, I haven't watched it, but I'm just saying. I'm just saying something that would be completely outside Sir's zone.

Raman: What's

that? Rajshri of course was telling, there is a [01:51:00] show about this Insta Influencer. I have no idea what this show is about. I mean, it's just, I'm guessing a camera following her, but she's basically, she's a big boss contestant, if I'm not wrong.

Manisha: She is basically this sensation on Instagram purely because of how she dresses. Very outrageous dress. But the thing is Shows, I think the camera for like, I'm something I'm keeping up with the Kardashians. I think like just following her and her life.

Right. So those are 30 emails that we dealt with today.

Thank you for writing in. Thank you for subscribing. Do please contribute. Like I said, um, whatever other emails you may have regarding the gender issue we are putting together. Let's talk about trans issues or a trans pod, if you like. Uh, Which subscribers, uh, helping us put together. And if you think you can also contribute to that podcast as a panelist, uh, from a position of either, you know, [01:52:00] experience or academic research or whatever it is, write to me up in an unsacred gmail.

com. I repeat, I've been other than sacred at gmail. com. And I will put you in touch with our two. You know, executive producers who are working with Aaryan to put this pod together. Uh, and if you want to just give us feedback about this show, uh, podcasts at newslaundry. com. I repeat podcasts at newslaundry.

com. And if an artist like Kamal, also known as Falana Dimkana, and want to give us some lovely things like this, which then we can put up in the hallowed halls of News Laundry, don't hesitate. We will give you a seat at our table. So recommendations, you want to start Kamal? What would you recommend for our subscribers other than your artwork, which the link is below if you want to thread out.

Uh, but yeah, something that they can consume. Oh, sorry, too, too much on the spot. Give me a few minutes. Doesn't matter. Anand. Okay. So, [01:53:00] uh, after many months, I am recommending a piece by Manu Joseph. He wrote his last piece. Uh, basically he reviews JD Vance's book, his life story, but his conclusions are. Uh, something close to what I believe in that many of these inspirational figures don't tell their audience a crucial element behind their success after all that struggle, that is luck.

That's, uh, so, uh, I think that's why I think, uh, listening to successful people is a lot A very, um, means, uh, closer waste of time because , it's really

Manisha: popular form of podcasting now though.

So, uh, when, uh, means, uh, when successful people speak, uh, [01:54:00] they means, uh, have a different view of the world now from the frame that they are now in.

So they miss many things that, uh, might have. uh, contributed to their life story but does not fit in a scheme of things in their place of life now. So that is what Manu tries to convey and luck here is not something, luck is that irrational element that does not Uh, that cannot be explained, uh, irrationally things falling in place, working in your favor.

So we cannot be explained by logic or rationality. So that is what I mean by luck. So anyway, so, uh, he has written, of course, in his, uh, very, uh, Manu Joseph way. Yeah. Provocative as hell. So, [01:55:00] uh, so one second is today's, uh, teacher's day. I'm so and particularly is Radhakrishnan's birthday. So, uh, his writings, he, we know him as a great scholar and philosopher, but, uh, his, uh, body of work is so daunting that very few actually touch any of his books, though his reward as the reason for the teacher's day.

So his works on Indian philosophy, also his celebrated work, the Hindu view of life. And so youngsters, particularly who are not exposed to what he really was and why he has such a tall standing among scholars who'd read him. That's it. Actually, speaking of this, before you give your recommendation, I remember in school we had a debate.[01:56:00]

And this subject was those who can do those who can't teach for and against. And I remember like we were in the audience and we had no fucking idea. Oh my, I tried. I tried them. We had no idea. Bhaiya, aap gahe na kya chahtiyo? Because, you know, this is class 8, 9, 10. Guy said, Today I'm here to oppose the motion, those who can do, those who can't teach.

So I said, what does that mean? You know, cause if you say that sentence without the right punctuation, it makes no sense. So he said, I Completely agree. Those who can do those, who can't teach. So, I, till the end of the debate, no one knew what was the discussion about. We sat down and clapped. That's why it turned out like this.

But it

Raman: is, yeah, it's popular.

Manisha: I have three recommendations. One is, uh, [01:57:00] an article today

Raman: in Hindu.

by Professor Waghmare and Shyam Moga. This is about the sub categorization, uh, you know, order, which was given by the Supreme Court. And, uh, it's, it's pretty good. They have tried to, uh, you know, see it through Ambedkar's writings and whether we should consider it, uh, consider, you know, um, Dalit as a monolithic body.

So, I think it is, uh, quite, quite a good one, uh, food for thought. And, uh, second is, uh, there is a documentary on, uh, Celine Dion, uh, at Prime Video. Uh, she's suffering from a rare neurological disease and she's not able to sing. Uh, fabulous. It's pretty good. I mean, uh, it's very disturbing also, because, uh, they have also [01:58:00] sh you know, shown her when she got fit, which was very, very disturbing.

And, uh, the third is must watch, uh, on Apple, uh, Lessons in Chemistry. Uh, it's a, it's a serial, eight, eight part, I think, series. Uh, beautiful, uh, beautifully done. Uh, this is, uh, it, it is set in 1950s, uh, and, uh, it's a story of two chemists, uh, Part I love story and also, uh, uh, it also gives you, you know, the, whatever the social, uh, scene was in 1950s show it so beautifully without preaching anything about racialism or gender issue, but it conveys, you know, what this, uh, era was about beautiful lessons in chemistry.

Manisha: I really enjoyed watching sort of the various interview with Yohani Singh on Lollandalk. It's. [01:59:00] It's a really good watch and I, he speaks very candidly about his substance abuse.

And about his nonsensical songs.

Manisha: Yeah, he makes fun of, you know, his songwriting. But I didn't know he was the ambassador for Narcotics Bureau.

Apparently they called him to the India Gate. He did a concert. Yeah.

Really?

Manisha: And it makes a lot of sense because when you hear him speak, he really kind of talks about how he fried his brain with alcohol. All the drugs that he was doing, but very interesting character. It's, I think it's a really good interview worth watching.

I like this movie, this 2023 movie called Salt Burn that I watched recently, very psychotic and interesting and fun. And there's a piece in the Atlantic, uh, on Amu TV, which is an Afghan newsroom that runs in the U S in Virginia. And how they're holding Taliban to account while,

and they're in there. No,

Manisha: they're, they're exactly.

Yeah. But they broadcast from Virginia. Very, very interesting story. [02:00:00]

Uh, so I have two recommendations. One is, uh, in Japan, this, it was part of planet money, uh, how Japan is trying to solve the problem of shrinking villages. Like the villages are. Vanishing as they have an aging problem, other than the aging problem.

And I thought it's such a fascinating problem to have that. And one of the proposals is that, you know, of course, there's one proposal that one should protect these villages. And they are incentive and the financial incentives to people to shift to villages and villages are saying, instead of getting down people to it.

But another proposal is, Let them get empty and then rewild them. Let nature reclaim them. That's, that's interesting. And the second is, um, you know, these two, um, astronauts, Sunita Williams and Butch, uh, I forget his full name. Butch something who was stuck, who had gone for eight days and now they're stuck for eight months.

Uh, uh, So there was the BBC podcast, uh, the global story stand in space and other crisis for Boeing. And this gives you the Boeing [02:01:00] angle that, you know, so many failures of Boeing. And I've just read so much about Boeing in the last few weeks. And that's where you realize that it's so important to have, you know, governments.

supporting industry and if there's no one putting their money where their mouth is, them starting it is important because the amount of screw ups Boeing has done the last decade or so, any other company will be shut down by now. But because there are just two companies out there, it still continues to thrive.

Uh, and because the barrier to entry is so high, so it's an interesting, you know, deep ish dive into the whole Boeing story.

Raman: Your first recommendation reminds me of Hridesh's story of ghost villages in Uttarakhand. So he's done a beautiful story of, uh, you know, these villages, which have completely been abandoned.

But from an ecological point of view, isn't it good that, that, that, that the, that the forest reclaim them, let those people settle down in [02:02:00] cities. And Let's put pressure on city planners to make cities livable for more people. I mean, I think from a larger perspective, it's better to have maybe a hundred cities that are densely populated, but efficient and let the wild take over the rest of the place.

Raman: But they're not yet wild. You have just thunders. That'll take a

while. Have you thought of something? Yes, I did. There's a play, a musical play called Joduba on the life of Nizamuddin Auliya and Aamir Khosrow and their intersection. And it's beautiful. They do do it, I think, every few months in Delhi. Uh, they were here last month and this month they're doing it in Bombay.

So if you can catch that, catch that. It's a beautiful play. The Joduba comes from one of my favorite couplets of Aamir Khosrow, which I I've quoted a hafta, ki khusro dariya prem ka ulti vaaki dhaar, jo utra so dooba so paar. Which means that the flow of the, [02:03:00] the river of love, and by love it can be devotion, something you're passionate about, is such that whoever goes to the banks of that river drowns.

And whoever drowns has crossed. Means that you have to just drown yourself in order to emerge. Something like that. Surrender. You need to surrender. Surrender or else. Subscribe or else. Pay to keep news free or else. I have just killed Ameer Khosrow's couplet here. But on that note, I'd like to thank our producer Aaryan and our sound recordist Anil.

Thank you once again to Falana Dhimkana, also known to those who know her as Kamal for this wonderful gift and for her support. We are always in your debt. Thank you for coming to our studio. It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you Anand Vardhan. Was that a surprise face or bored face? Let's answer that.

It was a poker face. All right. Thank you, Rohan sir. Manisha Pandey. And thank you all. I hope you go [02:04:00] back having learned something new from this boring podcast. Have a great day. Have a great weekend. And here is your song for the week.[02:05:00]

Manisha: for your subscription. You're changing the world by changing the way news is funded. For the smoothest News Laundry experience, download the News Laundry app. It is the best way to listen to our paywall podcasts.

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