Priyanka Gandhi Vadra may not be contesting as a Congress candidate from either Rae Bareli or Amethi but she has taken charge of the party’s campaign in the two Lok Sabha seats seen as the Nehru-Gandhi family boroughs.

Rahul Gandhi is the Congress candidate from Rae Bareli, where the BJP has fielded UP minister Dinesh Pratap Singh, while Congress leader Kishori Lal Sharma is contesting against Union minister Smriti Irani in Amethi.

Sreenivasan Jain caught up with Priyanka Gandhi Vadra on the campaign trail in Amethi, where they discussed several issues, ranging from the party’s prospects and strategy in this election, the BJP’s allegations about its agenda, and what she wishes for her brother. Excerpts:

The first question which everyone wants to know, your point of view, that we’re now kind of toward the end of this election. How do you think it’s poised? Is it, as many people believed at the outset, or at least the BJP made it seem a done deal? Or not?

They made it seem like that. And I think as the election is progressing, it’s appearing to be quite different. The reports we are getting from the ground are very positive for the INDIA alliance and I think what’s happening is all over, wherever we are going, at least that’s the experience we have, is people want change. They’re getting a bit tired of this sort of politics. 

Are you saying the BJP is going to lose?

I’m saying the INDIA alliance is going to win. 

Okay. With all respect though Priyanka this is exactly what the Congress said in 2019 as well. In fact, I interviewed Rahul. He said BJP ka safaachat ho jayega (the BJP will be wiped out) and we know what happened. 

That’s fine. 

So what’s the change…

We’ll see what’ll happen.

So what’s the change, what’s the difference you’re seeing? 

What I see is, in the crowds, in the people we meet – there is a certain sense of – look, we’ve been told that all these wonderful things are happening but we’re not seeing it in our life. So we are suffering, prices are so high, we can’t manage anymore. The farmer is suffering, ordinary people are suffering, we don’t see anything. And they’re not even getting the basic respect from the government and from the prime minister. And other BJP politicians, to be told that this is what we’ve done for you, this is what we want to do. Not even that. So they’re not seeing it in their own life. And they’re also not being told. The discussion during election rallies and all is completely different. I mean, we’re talking about completely different things, than what is actually affecting the public. So I think now the public is beginning to get a bit tired of this. And at least from what they tell us they really want to hear what parties want to do to alleviate the kind of price rise there is and to help them to cope with the difficulties they have in their lives. 

So I wanted to ask your view on this because when we go out and ask the public it's true that we do hear complaints. There’s price rise, unemployment, all of that. But when we ask who will you vote for? They still say BJP or Modi. So then we say why? They say one of the reasons is…(an) alternative…is not visible. 

With all due respect, I don’t think the public trusts you anymore.

Who? Me? 

The media. 

Okay. I thought, me, personally.

I don’t think the public trusts the media. So I don’t think the public is even going to tell you what they're thinking because there is a very strong belief amongst the public as well that the media is not actually being truthful anymore and that the media is just functioning and working for the government. I don’t think they're wrong. I mean you know from your own experience that they’re not wrong. 

No, no, of course I completely agree that large swathes of the media are propagandist. But I was making a different point. I was trying to make the point that there’s a sense in which there’s a little bit of a confusion about the alternative because I know…we don’t have a presidential system but when you have this Modi thing…who is the leader in front of us?

But this is what they said in 2004 as well. They said it in 2009 as well. 

So what the outcome is going to be, frankly, you and I are only going to find out when we have an outcome before us.

Sure. But you don’t think it’s a disadvantage that…

But whether this is something that is really bothering the public or not, neither you and I can tell, because it hasn’t in the past. There have been plenty of elections where the candidate, the prime ministerial candidate hasn’t been clear right from the beginning and they’ve gone the way they’ve gone. So I don’t think it’s such a big issue in their minds. I think what is more prominent in the minds of the public today is the fact that there is a historic rate of unemployment today and the price rise is something that they just cannot manage anymore and the farmer is not able to make ends meet. 

Okay, so you’re saying that the INDIA alliance has the edge. The BJP is slipping. Now whether for that reason or for whatever reason we don’t know. The prime minister has changed tack halfway through this campaign. He is talking of Muslims, he is talking of mangal sutra, he is talking of mutton, all of that.

And let me tell you people don’t like it. People don’t like it. It’s run its course.

…But does that concern you that he's trying to polarise or communalise?

No…

Is that something which worries you?

Actually what he is doing is he is demonstrating to the public that he is now cut off from the public. So it doesn’t worry us in the least. If you ask people wherever I’m going if I’m talking about the fact that he’s saying we’re going to steal their buffaloes, people are laughing. It’s quite possible that he’s so powerful and people are afraid of him and so even his advisors are not telling him that this is not going down well with the public. The public really truly wants to hear about its problems.

One of the reasons why we are getting space is because we are talking about guarantees. We are saying that we have…what we are guaranteeing we are already doing in many states. Please see what we are doing. This is what we want to do. We are talking about giving back your money in your hands. So I think that’s why…somewhere we are resonating with the public today because they are sick of hearing all this. So many people also say we don’t want another election on the Hindu-Muslim lines. We want an election on who’s going to alleviate us from our problems. And that’s just not coming from the BJP, from the biggest leader to the smallest leader. That issue is just not coming up. They are just not even talking about it. 

But just to clarify because he keeps repeating this, that the Congress, if it comes to power, is going to steal reservations from OBCs and give it to Muslims. Saying this again and again. 

Why should I even respond to the lies that he’s telling?...Has he even read our manifesto? He seems to know our manifesto better than anybody else. He’s imagining things in it. He’s inventing things in it. He’s telling lakhs and lakhs of people absolute lies that are not in our manifesto. I mean this is the prime minister of the country. He has some responsibility towards people to at least tell them the truth. And when he’s talking about a document which is public he should at least be able to prove that what he’s saying is in that document. But it’s not even there.

So, it’s really a case of somebody losing touch with reality. Somebody losing touch with the public. Not understanding that the public today is suffering from immense problems at every level. Even the middle class, poor people. Everybody is suffering from these things that I’ve been repeating nonstop. And the government and the BJP party has to address these issues. Where is their manifesto? Why don’t they talk about their manifesto? Have they said a word about their manifesto? All they do is talk about rubbish which isn’t in our manifesto, but they say is in our manifesto. So they freely publicise our manifesto. 

So, one allegation they make about the Congress is that you’ve also been spreading misinformation. That if BJP comes to power, the Constitution will be changed and reservation will be abolished… 

Okay. Who is Arun Govil? Who is he?

We know who he is. 

Tell me who he is. You don’t know? 

He is the BJP candidate from Meerut. I have gone to Meerut and I have actually done a whole piece on him. I thought you were asking me rhetorically. So that’s why. 

He’s the BJP candidate from Meerut. 

Yes, of course, he is.

And he has said in public that vote for us, give us 400 seats, we’re changing the Constitution. What was the name of the other guy who the PM did a road show with? 

Lallu Singh. I think the Faizabad candidate. 

Faizabad candidate. He said we are going to change the Constitution. The PM is doing a roadshow with him. So please tell me. There is this criticism always of the Congress party. That Congress leaders say all sorts of different things about different…even policy issues. Somebody is saying something. Somebody is saying something. And this is a criticism the media makes over…

Right, the Sam Pitroda factor or whatever. 

You never make that criticism of the BJP because you also tell us you should be like the BJP. What the top leadership says every guy down to the bottom says. So please explain to me how come tens of these guys down at the bottom are spreading this thing that if we get 400 seats we will change the Constitution without Modiji’s permission? I don’t believe it. 

They’re saying these are not leaders of any weight. 

It doesn’t happen in the BJP according to you or the BJP. They go by their diktat. So they have been told to say this. They have been told to say this. Once they have been told to say this they have seen that there is a

reaction amongst the public and they have backtracked. Modiji has now stood on stage and said this is not and defended himself and frankly been completely on the defensive because he started this himself. So we don’t trust them. Just because Modiji is saying he’s not going to do it doesn’t mean they’re not going to do it. It’s them who made their leaders say it in the first place. A guy standing for election in Meerut or Faizabad isn’t just any person. He’s a person standing for election in the BJP. He’s obviously going by the diktat of the leadership. 

Okay so you’re saying, you’re staying on message with your schemes and guarantees but there’s again this question of fiscal prudence like the scheme of Rs 1 lakh per year to women…

So where is the…

Which is a big promise of yours…where is its funding? 

Sorry, I’m interrupting you constantly. 

No, no, no. That’s fine. 

My brother says I do that a lot. 

No, no. I’m used to it as a journalist. 

My husband doesn’t say it though. 

Well…we’ll have to go with your word for that but anyway. 

Fiscal prudence doesn’t come into the picture when you’re letting go of 16 lakh crore loans for your big industrialist friends, then there’s no question of fiscal prudence. The minute we talk about farmers loans, we talk about direct transfer of money to women then you start talking about fiscal prudence. So I think you know I don’t buy what they’re saying at all. And there are people in our party like (former minister P) Chidambaramji and all who have gone through the whole manifesto and you know there’s not a thing that Chidambaramji will let pass if he doesn't think that it's possible. 

That it can be funded?

He’ll argue it out with the whole party if he has to, that it cannot be funded. So there’s Manmohan Singhji. There’s Chidambaramji there. There are experienced finance ministers who have been finance ministers for decades and they know what they are talking about. So if they are saying that it can be done, it can be done.

So, you are saying you are going to take it back from these…industrialists.

I am not saying I am taking back anything from anyone. I am saying the BJP is free to make whatever criticism they want provided it applies to all. I am saying that if the BJP is saying fiscal prudence applies to us being able to give loan waivers to farmers then we are saying that surely it must then also apply to your loan waiver of Rs 16 lakh crore which you are giving to the biggest industrialists in the country…We are not saying we are going to snatch it from one person and give it to the other. We are saying that your criticism is invalid because you are not using that same criticism to examine your own policies. That’s all we’re saying. 

The prime minister is saying you have a secret deal with industrialists. Adani-Ambani sending tempos of black money to the Congress, and that's why the Congress has stopped speaking about….

…If the prime minister is now defending his relationship with Adani and Ambani in public then obviously there's something to defend. 

But there’s no secret deal?

Obviously not. 

So, you guys are going to continue to…

He says my brother doesn’t talk about Adani-Ambani anymore. I mean I was with him in two meetings yesterday. He must have taken their name at least 12 times. So he is talking about them every day. So he is making an allegation which is false based on a premise which is false. And you expect me to reply?

…How fair is the allegation that the Congress though as the leading opposition party has not managed to fully get its act together? That you are now in the fight, but the past five years…organisation has not been on its feet. 

When a party is out of power it faces multiple difficulties…simply because it’s out of power, you have lost. You’ve got a cadre which has been defeated. There is a loss of morale. At the same time there has never in the history of India been this kind of attack on opposition parties that Mr Modi has carried out in the last 10 years. Please name one period in our history where it’s been this way. It’s just not. One election in which two chief ministers have been put into prison. Every political leader which is opposing them has cases against them. False cases. All sorts of things. ED, CBI raids, income tax raids. There is so much pressure on politicians who are against the BJP. 

…Governments are being dropped when they have been elected, by…paying, bribing politicians of other parties. All this is going on…I mean when there was a UPA government all the media did day in and day out was ask questions, criticise, lambast us on every policy which was a good thing. 

No, no. I am saying concede all that. 

One second, let me finish, let me finish...And when the opposition raised an issue you almost always rallied with the opposition to question the government. Today we don’t even have that. We don’t even have the basic support of a fair and independent media…you switch the TV on. It looks like a full on BJP propaganda. 

Okay, I’m saying that is fine but still…

Now tell us, in that situation where you have, you know you are defeated. You have leaders in your party that are being attacked mercilessly by the government. You have no support from the media. You have extremely difficult circumstances under which you are functioning. I think it’s great that the Congress is doing what it is…

But what about the fact now that if, can I just jump in with one question? 

No. 

No? Okay then I need more time. 

That there were these two yatras which crisscrossed the country where lakhs of people came. Despite all these difficulties, our leaders went on the ground. They walked for 4,000 km non-stop for four months just to go amidst the public. I think it’s a massive achievement. And I think the fact that you all say that the Congress party is not fighting is absolutely not true. 

No, I’m talking about the organisation…

That’s the organisation. What is it? 

Okay the yatras, yes. But I’m saying in these past 10 years, I agree that it’s been a difficult 10 years. But in terms of building a structure, when one goes out there, it’s not…

So, when there is a storm, there is a massive storm. You are in your house. Are you going to start building your house or are you going to sit out, at least wait till everything has sort of settled and then regroup and fight. That’s what we’re doing. 

So, you’re hunkering in the storm?

If you want us to start building at this time…this is not the time to build. This is the time to fight with everything we’ve got. And as we fight, we

will build. Because when you fight what happens?...those who don’t have the stomach for the fight, those who are fearful, those who have cases and need to sort out their stuff, they leave. 

I was going to ask you about that. 

So, they leave. So then what you’re left with is your actual army. You’re left with the actual people with the stomach to fight. 

But you’re not worried about the exodus? So many leaders. (Jyotiraditya) Scindia, Ghulam Nabi Azad, (Kapil) Sibal. The list is endless. 

I’m not going to get into every individual.

…I’m saying that surely that’s also a sign that it’s not just the cases, that they feel that the party’s prospects are bleak. They feel that it'’s, you know the leadership….

Look, what are we fighting for? What are we fighting for? Are we fighting for power? In that case please go to the BJP and be with them because that’s where you’re getting…Today it is a fight of two ideologies. The BJP’s, the RSS, and us. And the ideology we are fighting for is the ideology on which our country was built. So it is a massive battle. So it’s not for the weak. It is not for people who are seeking power. It is not for people who are simply looking at oh my goodness, if I am here I am going to win this election. Might as well go there and win it there. 

But you also do want to win? It’s a political thing. 

Obviously…It’s an ideological fight but it is obviously to remove them from power. Because as long as they are in power they are destroying everything that the Congress built and that this nation was built on…Please don’t misinterpret for one second saying that power doesn’t matter. Of course it does. But I’m saying that in some cases people are more motivated than that…In which case this is probably the time they’re going to leave. 

…So you’re saying it’s not a leadership issue. But let’s just take the example of what happened here in Amethi and Rai Bareli…

It’s a one-hour interview?

…That last-minute suspense which has happened in the past also. Is Rahul going to come? Is Rahul going to come…

So, how do you know it’s not strategic? How do you know it wasn’t strategic? 

I don’t know. I’m asking you. Was it strategic?

So then? You’re just assuming. 

I’m asking. 

So you’re assuming. 

Okay. 

I’m telling you. 

So, it was deliberate?

Ask him when I told him. He’s going to. Yeah.

This is Kishore Lal ji. He’s your candidate now from Amethi. But why not? Why didn’t you fight?

Because both of us are campaigning. We’re campaigning in the whole country. You can see I’m here for 15 days. Somebody is required to be here. These are not constituencies where you can fight elections by remote control. We have worked very hard here. We have a relationship here which is like a family relationship with the people of these constituencies.

They expect us to be around. They expect to see us. They expect to meet us. They expect to speak to us…So if one of us was going to fight, the other was going to have to manage one of the constituencies. Had both of us fought, both of us would have been managing constituencies. And none of us would have been able to campaign in the rest of the country. 

No. So the strategic thing of keeping it at the last minute was what? What was the advantage there? 

I don’t owe you to tell you all my strategies.

No. No, you don’t. But you can. But you can give me a hint. But you don’t regret it? 

Not at all. What? Regret what? 

…You don't miss actually being in the fray? 

Not at all.

Okay. Because many people have that question right about you, about your role…Take some kind of leadership position.

I have plenty of time to do that. 

What about Rahul, though? 

What about him?

Is he going to be prime minister? If the INDIA alliance wins? 

The INDIA alliance will decide that. 

Would you like that as a sister? 

As a sister, I would like my brother to be a happy man. 

Would he be happy as a prime minister…?

Which he is, which he is. 

Would he be happy…

I would like him to get married. I would like him to have kids. That’s what I would like as a sister. 

Is there any breaking news update? 

No. I wish there was. 

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